Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: Warp12 on October 11, 2008, 12:42:11 PM
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Due to limited space I have had to mount my air shifter Co2 bottle externally. Will this setup pass tech? If not, what needs changed?
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/co21.jpg)
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/co22.jpg)
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/co23.jpg)
Thanks.
Shane
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Shane,
Per the ECTA rules (relating your co2 to nitrous as they are both similiar high pressure vessels):
The main mount(bottle/clamp holder) and the fastener holding it being safety wired appear to be sufficient, the hose clamps are not sufficient as they don't comply with the rule, and the bottle valve(/regulator) would suffice as it does not need protected per the ECTA rule. Again, these are observations per the rulebook's written word if relating this vessel to that of a nitrous bottle(which as a tech is what I would do).
Personally: I don't have a problem with the hose clamps if they are stainless and you are willing to safety wire them from coming loose (mainly becasue they are only holding a 9oz(1.3lb) bottle). The regulator I'm not so happy about being out there like that (especially in a simple fall) as it is (especially the gauge) a very easy and fragile target that is capable of releasing 1200psi plus of pressure at it's recipient(s).
The whole unit looks (from the pictures) to be the furthest point out on the bike which makes it questionable on it's ability to take a hit on a simple fall over, it's possible it's not as bad as it appears in person but tucking it in somewhere may not require you to get called on it in tech or more importantly to have an issue that hurts yourself or someone else should it take a hit. I do like the fact you have the blow off disc ports horizontal to the ground btw.
Just my thoughts.... but a broader picture of the bike may lead to another member suggesting a better mounting situation (IE, under the tail, to the swingarm itself, inside the fairing, etc, etc).
Todd
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If you just knocked the bike over in the pits you could break the mounting bracket and shear the regulator off and have a missile going through the pits. It isn't safe. It isn't even close.
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hey Dean...there talkin ECTA here..... i just might fly there...
kent
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Thanks for the input, Todd. I have a few changes to make and I will post some more pictures. That is actually exactly how the air shifter kit is supplied, mounting and all. I'm not exactly thrilled with it, either.
Shane
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If you just knocked the bike over in the pits you could break the mounting bracket and shear the regulator off and have a missile going through the pits. It isn't safe. It isn't even close.
Great unasked for specualtion there Dean.. care to answer either of his questions?
Todd
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..... i just might fly there...
kent
We'll all be waiting at the airport for you Kent :roll:
Todd
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Shane, check out the 14 that runs there that I snapped pics of with the left side undertail bottle and valve protection mount... very stout and secure. I think it'd be well worth contacting him and seeing if you can get the measurements or a reproduction of his unit from him or his machinest. I can't seem to find a pic right now or remeber who's bike it is.. will look in my other computer when I get a chance if you don't have or remember it.
Todd
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I've seen that mount, it is very nice. I found out that it is a custom fabricated piece. After this event I will likely have a swingarm mounted bottle; I have to get some welding and machine work done for that.
Shane
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You Go Todd.... see you next weekend.
Charles
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I believe the bike you're referring to is associated with GPW from HPC rider/owner is Leslie. Shane, you remember GPW, Racheal's buddy. :-P :roll:
Debbie
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Great unasked for specualtion there Dean.. care to answer either of his questions?
Todd
You are absolutely correct. The question was will it pass tech. I don't care if it passes tech, it's unsafe.
as it is (especially the gauge) a very easy and fragile target that is capable of releasing 1200psi plus of pressure at it's recipient(s).
There are two ways to get through life.
1. Pure hope and blind luck.
2. Take a risk management class and learn how to manage risk safely.
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If you would of listened in class rather then chewing on your covers then you would of heard the part about communication skills being one of the most important parts of risk management.
Again from you.. more words with less answers.
Managing risk involves problem solving for those at risk... to do this effectivley you want to communicate with the one that has the most influence on changing that risk. In this case it would be the owner of the bike that also happens to be the one asking "What needs changed?"... it really doesn't get any easier for you to help in this case (if you have any actual answers that is).
You will find your self to be more effective if you read the other persons words and questions, more then you read your own answers.
Todd
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Dean and 1212, It seems as if your tart reply was more of a dig at the ECTA and the Question.
Now I know that in these forums the written word can and sometimes does come across to the readers much differant than the sender intended. As a Member of the LSR Community as well as the ECTA and Soon to be SCTA, I would think we would all want each venue to succeed and prosper and be supportive of each other and lend constructive helping comments.
Not to say you meant for your comments to seem as if tech at ECTA was inferior or lax, but some could read that into it, re read the question, then Dean's response, then 1212's (what appears to be a dig) reply.
If you read it, maybe you will see why Todd made such an explanatory reply.
Have a great evening and let's all be supportive and get along.
Charles
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This has nothing to do with ECTA. They do a great job.
What I posted is true for anybody. Look at the mounting and tell me what the result will be in an accident? It is going to come off and become a potential hazard to the rider. Even if you don't leak the contents the bottle could hit the rider.
I'm just looking out for everybody because I don't want to see anybody hurt. Ever.
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well its no dout that dean and i think the mounting is unsafe and wouldnt fly if i were teching it... so the question here is do you think its safe todd?
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I agree with Dean and Kent, looks like a single bolt attachment. The hose clamps will allow the bottle to detach on impact. The one photo looks like the foot peg might be pretty close as well. We had a car at Bonneville one year that got upside down and the fire bottle came loose and was flaying around the inside of the car still attached to the hose. It was held on by hose clamps and slid out of the clamps on impact. The driver was lucky this time but it beat the crap out of everything it hit.
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Just knock the bike over a few times and a few times at speed and see what happens..if the owner would not submit to that then mount it safely.. :cheers:
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What bike is this on..? Is it on a ZX12? If so use a smaller C02 bottle or pressurize the swing arm (welding it up) and use a standard air shifter and refill it after each run.
Case solved and safely as well.. :cheers:
J
PS, just about any bike can have the arm welded/replaced and used as a tank for the air shifter..
John
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Ok fellas.
I would prefer to see any presurized vessel within the frame/ subframe rails. That being said i would mount the bottle infront of the rear wheel with a bracket that would support the bottom of the bottle and not allow the bottle to slide down if the clamps let go. With the extensions in your pic there is plenty of room to do a nice neat install.
Presto problem solved. now back to the verbal jousting.
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well its no dout that dean and i think the mounting is unsafe and wouldnt fly if i were teching it... so the question here is do you think its safe todd?
No that is not the question here Kent, read the first post again. That is your question, and after the fact... so in answer to that, I of course (as you can see in my first response) do not think it's a safe installation. But I also don't think one liners making the member or the organization look incompetent is a way to solve it or answer the question at hand.
John and Jason both utilized common sense responses that will progress the member's (and other's) understanding, rather then deter him from bringing his questions to this forum in the future.
Todd
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For those of you who posted with the intent of helping, I appreciate it.
Shane
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Hey Todd! My response was for Shane, not you. My initial response was because you said, in part:
it's possible it's not as bad as it appears in person
I felt your response left room for leaving the cylinder where it was, and I responded accordingly.
I didn't offer an alternative because I'm not familiar with the bike.
I don't mind being yelled at by you. You sound just like my wife! I'm left handed, an engineer, and very logical. After re-reading this post I know that sometimes the logical needs to be softened somewhat.
But this is a safety issue. Not a "will it pass tech" issue. There is a significant difference.
I know that mounting a pressurized cylinder safely is not in the area of expertise for a lot of people. Fabricating mounting brackets is also something that can be difficult if you don't have access to a machine shop. I've seen some of the "baling wire specials" at all kind of racing venues.
I'm certainly not dinging Shanes expertise, or anybody else. I think Shane did the best he could. I don't hear Shane complaining. We offer advice in the hopes that everyone can benefit from it, even if the listener doesn't want to hear it.
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Well said, thanks for the curteous reply Dean.
Trust me, I don't have thin skin, but many people in this venue do... and I don't want to see ALL of them run off. Shane knows like most at Maxton that if the understanding and especially the effort is put in up front, I'm the first one to offer solutions and many times the tools and materials at the track to make it right and get someone safely down the track for the weekend.
BTW, I don't have a reputaion of being a pushover in tech, but I also have never kept one person from running on the track that was willing to do the work to make their bike safe.
Todd
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Dean, great follow up.
I have no problem with a logical up front answer to any question (even if I don't like the answer). I have no problem with a little dig or verbal sparring every now and then either.
My post was to clarify intent and help the person get his question answered and let all parties know that what we intend and what we post "sometimes" gets lost in the translation.
I have read many of your posts and replys and believe you are a knowledgelbe and stand up guy and really look forward to hearing from you.
Glad you sent a clarification and all is good,
Safe and Happy Racing to all....
Charles
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Just an update. I moved the bottle and made some changes as suggested here. Below is an outline of what I did, in case it might help anyone with a ZX-14 who is looking for a better spot to mount a bottle:
I am running a Catalyst step seat at the dragstrip, and I called it into duty for the mile. It is hollow underneath and gives some room for mounting. I also ordered some smaller 3.5 oz. CO2 bottles, figuring they would be easier to deal with:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build297.jpg)
I cut a bracket from a piece of scrap aluminum:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build291.jpg)
Instead of stainless hose clamps, I used heavy exhaust clamps. These are much more secure. I drilled the mounting bracket accordingly:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build292.jpg)
Here is the spot where the bracket will mount:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build290.jpg)
I removed the seat latch and attached my new bracket assembly solidly to the subframe:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build293.jpg)
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build294.jpg)
Here you can see that the seat provides plenty of clearance and coverage for the bottle and regulator assembly:
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build295.jpg)
(http://members.aol.com/warp12racing/14build/14build296.jpg)
There are a few more things to do, but I think this is much improved from a safety standpoint. If any of you have a ZX-14, you might want to look into the Catalyst seat for added room.
Shane
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Warp, nice work and good pics.
Charles
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Nice fix, now I feel better for you. Good luck on your runs. :-)
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Shane, looks good. You bringing rain tires? I'll have to ask Rick if he has any spares from Daytona...haha.
A.
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looks good.
franey