Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: isiahstites on October 08, 2008, 10:08:14 PM
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Among other things I broke this tach and another smaller and cheaper one while at Bonneville this year. I have another tach and am hesitant about putting it on the bike the same way as before as I amalmost certain there will be a repeat of what happened at Bonneville.
So my question is how has everyone mounted there tachs before in high vibration areas? My bike is a Harley ( VIBRATION! ) and it is a rigid chassis ( MORE VIBRATION ) and the motor is rigid mounted ( EVEN MORE VIBRATION ) so can you please help?
Thanks,
Scott
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r98/isiahstites/WOS%202008/100_3269.jpg)
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what would really help scott is if you had your engine balanced willie buchta
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I recommend using some pieces of SHOCKtec Gel from Kemmler Products in Mooresville, NC.
SHOCKtec Gel is nothing short of amazing. It's used by dozens of Nextel Cup drivers, and also in gloves for jackhammer operators, on high-end motorcycle seats, and in law enforcement, under bulletproof vests to minimize bruising. Here's the company's site:
Kemmler Products
http://www.kemmlerproducts.com/
You can reach Tom Pierce at Kemmler Products at (888) 411-3884. He may offer to send you some samples. Tom is a good guy. Please say hi to him for me.
Dave Mann
(602) 233-8400
http://www.roadsters.com/
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what would really help scott is if you had your engine balanced willie buchta
My engine is balanced Willie........
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H-D XR750 factory method: suspend the tach on surgical tubing between hooks.
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Hey Scott,
I have had great luck with vibration isolators from McMaster - www.mcmaster.com
do a search for - High-Temperature Vibration-Damping Sandwich Mounts - page 1351
Maybe use two small ones in your case
Josh
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http://www.scitsu.co.uk/docs/main.htm
Check out this website for Scitsu Tachs. These Tachs are built for road racing GP bikes and Karts. I might have one for your needs if you are interested. $225 new
Ken Pike 714 606 2606
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scott... i thought we had this conversation the other day.... you need to come over and look at the harley bike liner....oh by the way the lh turn signal on west bound linda vista at via veracruz doesnt work.... fix it ok?
kr
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scott... i thought we had this conversation the other day.... you need to come over and look at the harley bike liner....oh by the way the lh turn signal on west bound linda vista at via veracruz doesnt work.... fix it ok?
kr
Kent - We did have this conversation, but Summit sent me another tach so I am kinda in the same boat. I didn't know the Harley liner was there........I will come and check it out.
I call you about the signal tomorrow and get specifics.
Scott
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Scott, everything that can be killed with vibration on an HD is rubber mounted.... or suspended somehow. :roll:
You may need to try several things to get something that is soft enough to absorb the vibration, but tough enough to keep the tach on the scooter.
Good to see ya on the salt 8-)
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(http://www.autometer.com/img/products/6397_d.jpg)
Its not traditional but vibrations wont hurt it.
Another potential cat.
-JH
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if your harley shakes -vibrates--if things fall off and metal cracks you need to balance your motor--if you have then you need to find someone else to do it again right-- sometimes it can be the way the motor is mounted especially in an aftermarket frame ---anyone that wants to feel smooth harleys should ride mine and sheris bikes (hers is a 500 single the worst for vibrations ) our bikes are balanced by dave bozzie ----just some thoughts willie buchta
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There is a book, "How to stop a Harley from vibrating".
It's in the section of the library with:
"Understanding how the Female Mind Works"
"French War Victories"
"I didn't do it - OJ Simpson"
"How to machine Unobtainum"
Just kidding. :evil:
I had an AMF Sportster years ago that vibrated the fillings out of teeth.
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Thanks for the laugh! That's funny.
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New book out BY OJ
What happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas, 15 to life.
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Thanks for all of the replies....
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your coil bracket was kinda winpy and those chineese auto meter gauges are fragile... but willie may be right... when you say your motor is balanced... what balance factor was it set up for.?.... if my memory serves me correct, didnt you have the wrong pistons when you first assembled your motor and had to switch piston? was the crank balanced to those shorter lighter pistons? it wouldnt be a bad idea to have Keenan take a look and rebalance your rotating assembly...Oh i will be at the shop sat morning splashing a mold for stoneys lakesters windscreen so you can come over and look at the bike liners tach
kent
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Windscreen..... :-D
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yep... why ya need one.?...
kr
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Thanks for all of the replies....
Get the LUQUID FILLED Version,and you should be just fine :wink:.
look around they makim :evil:
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"liquid filled" thats a new one for me...hey where do ya get a "liquid filled" tac there kaz?
kr
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he could fill it with Amo anti-galling compound, most days it's noncombustible
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Hey Scott. If I remember right, you got a tach with the same functions as mine. Cept, mine was for MC's, yours was for cars or generic. That could be your problem. Well, it might explain your problems with tachs anyway. for the rest yur on your own. BTW, my tach is still workin fine.
oh yeah, yur coil bracket was kinda wimpy...
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yeh yours works larry cuz your tac has never seen a race track....hahahahahahahahaha
love ya man
kent
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yeh yours works larry cuz your tac has never seen a race track....hahahahahahahahaha
love ya man
kent
LOL yur funny man. But, I'm pretty sure mine has at least as many runs as Scott if not more... But, I didn't pay someone to balance mine. Maybe that's why it doesn't shake as much. And, yes he did change pistons after the balance. :cheers:
love ya kent
Larry
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yeh yours works larry cuz your tac has never seen a race track....hahahahahahahahaha
love ya man
kent
EXACTLY!! Is thing parked in the living room as art now??
Kent steered me right and I got a tach on the way, thanks Kent.
Scott
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What you talkin bout dough boy. Yur bikes made more runs on the dyno then on the track and stuff's still fallin off it. :-o
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What you talkin bout dough boy. Yur bikes made more runs on the dyno then on the track and stuff's still fallin off it. :-o
Racing actually breaks stuff when you actually race it......but I wouldn't expect you to know that as you didn't race this year.
That's Mr Dough Boy to you scrawny little bastard.......
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What you talkin bout dough boy. Yur bikes made more runs on the dyno then on the track and stuff's still fallin off it. :-o
robin actaully breaks when you actually race it......but I wouldn't expect you to know that as you didn't race this year.
That's Mr Dough Boy to you scrawny little bastard.......
Who the hell is robin? Ahh, but I did. But, granted not what I'd like, but that was a supplier problem... Remember that supplier. See ya in May dough "boy"
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this is funny shit right here folks.... boy i love it when i start a "CAT FIGHT"..!.!.!.! you go girls.!.!.! Hey whos farley is gonna be faster?
kent
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If this one breaks after I build a rubber mount for it I can afford 10 of these at this price compared to one of the Auto Meters.........
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=160290695687
And before you pipe up Larry...........maybe you should get your ass off of the cpu and in the garage and building a motor for the bike so you can quit playing Monday Morning Quarterback! :roll:
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...
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Scott, I took out a VDO Extreme tach on my 1000cc Ironhead Sportster(the tach was rubber mounted to some extent), then 5 Drag Speciatlies mini tachs (testing tachs as I call em today) each mounted with different types of isolation BS I was trying (with both a full air rear suspension and as a rigid), before finally getting a mini tach to live by mounting it as solid as I could to the bike... and then I put another VDO Extreme back on(a $400 tach at the time by the way) with it mounted as solid as possible to the frame as well. It has since made many trips down the concrete at Maxton (which makes Bonneville '08 feel like a pool table) and is still living fine today.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/100_0882.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/100_0881c.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/100_0884.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/100_0883.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/100_0910c.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/1004medadinmaxtonc.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/P0005459c.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/76%20XL%20-%20LSR%201300/P0005463c.jpg)
Solid mounting on my Ironhead was my ticket(and I mean rock solid to my neck in between my triple clamps)... but then again our glass like track and my japanese like motor may make it mute point :roll:
Todd
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Ya know Scott. If you didn't want other opinions then why did you pose your question here? I was only trying to point out that my tach is for m/c's and may be different then yours. But it's not a problem. I'll never comment on any of your posts again. i'll just sit back and laugh , as I've done quite a few times before, at how stupid you can be. At least now I don't have to spend the better part of an hour on the phone with you trying to figure out why your engine won't turn over with the newly installed cams. Only to find out you hadn't put the cam cover on so you could "watch" the cams go around!!! So, in other words, shove it up your a#$.
As far as me going to the garage to build a motor, I seem to remember you didn't make Bonneville with your new motor last year either... You had to get used pistons to put your motor together. I had to order complete new heads. But, I will have a motor for next year that I built and designed myself. I'll see you then dough boy. Maybe you should think about Tractor Pulls!
Wow Larry, I am glad you got your true feelings out! At least now I know. My post was meant to continue last nights joking around, I realize that after reading your post that you took it in a negative fashion and not as it was intended.
I have to go now I need to go make a few more stupid mistakes so you will have some entertainment.
Scott
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Ya know Scott. If you didn't want other opinions then why did you pose your question here? I was only trying to point out that my tach is for m/c's and may be different then yours. But it's not a problem. I'll never comment on any of your posts again. i'll just sit back and laugh , as I've done quite a few times before, at how stupid you can be. At least now I don't have to spend the better part of an hour on the phone with you trying to figure out why your engine won't turn over with the newly installed cams. Only to find out you hadn't put the cam cover on so you could "watch" the cams go around!!! So, in other words, shove it up your a#$.
As far as me going to the garage to build a motor, I seem to remember you didn't make Bonneville with your new motor last year either... You had to get used pistons to put your motor together. I had to order complete new heads. But, I will have a motor for next year that I built and designed myself. I'll see you then dough boy. Maybe you should think about Tractor Pulls!
Dang, and truckstop to boot! I thought ya'll was joking around.. but you apparently have a serious problem man. If anyone ever puts just half my mistakes out in the public eye... they'll have to start a new site for it cause there ain't enough room here. Must be hard to walk around with all that pride weighing you down!
Todd
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Hi Jack(D), a little, but just during the love fest.... :roll:
Todd, hard to see the tach mounting bracket, can you get your head down that far to see it. Took me a while to spot it, now I have to look at your riding pictures to see how you do that.... :-D Love the scooter.
OK, back to the love fest... :|
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Dang, and truckstop to boot! I thought ya'll was joking around.. but you apparently have a serious problem man. If anyone ever puts just half my mistakes out in the public eye... they'll have to start a new site for it cause there ain't enough room here. Must be hard to walk around with all that pride weighing you down!
Todd
Thanks for the pictures Todd, I went over to Kents the other day and he showed me the way one of his was mounted so I am going to try something similar.
Larry is right about my cams no denying that I couldn't get my motor to turn over by hand when I was first putting her together and trying to learn what to me at the time was a new motor. He helped me out as I didn't know what I was doing as I was/am a rookie at this LSR stuff. It's alright though I will typically post photos of my mistakes as they do not bother me as it is how I live and learn when someone see's a better way of doing something or they find something just plain wrong and they chime in...........so Larry if there is anything else you need to tell landracing.com that I did that was stupid to get it off of your chest please feel free.
Scott
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oh, oh,...me, me, me, ive seen ya do some pretty hilarious stuff can i tell everyone after larry is done..??????
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oh, oh,...me, me, me, ive seen ya do some pretty hilarious stuff can i tell everyone after larry is done..??????
Sure, as long as I can tell everyone some of the stuff you have done.......I myself have witnessed a few things. :-o :-o
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Hi Jack(D), a little, but just during the love fest.... :roll:
Todd, hard to see the tach mounting bracket, can you get your head down that far to see it. Took me a while to spot it, now I have to look at your riding pictures to see how you do that.... :-D Love the scooter.
OK, back to the love fest... :|
Jack D??? Did I miss him peeking in or something?
You can see my avatar to the left to see how I can see the tach. But they've never never been for an actual visual, at least not in their entirety. I only ever have to see the 8k rpm area in top gear at the end of the run. Up to that point is my reasoning for using the VDO as it has programmable outputs and I can set each shift point per gear at it's own rpm to trigger my shifter solenoid, plus it records the run as well.
Ya know Stainless... I wrote my reply and then for some(stupid) reason added the pics afterwards... and then when I posted it I thought "those pictures show a bunch of nothing other then placement... awww, no one will notice or say anything". Should of figured you saying "so, where's the mount?"... no I looked and don't have any good pics of the trrial and error mounts I tried... lots of rubber hose, some dense seat foam, a gel pad and even giant glob of bubble pack one time. Finally zip-tied one straight to the front left leg of the frame (as you can see I had the VDO and the test tach on there at the same time) and it survived(two of them I took out because they were only 8,000 rpm tachs). So once one survived a few meets I went back to the big tach and mounted it solid (removed the oe rubber grommets form it's mount and made a solid one) and it's been fine since.
Todd
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Hey all. i'm sure most didn't want to hear from me again but I just wanted to say I have apologized to Scott personally and am now publicly. What I said was uncalled for and not my true feelings. I let my personal problems interfere with my social perspective. For that I apologize to Scott and this forum. So, for now I will continue to learn from here but will step back and just listen.
Larry
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Hi Jack(D)-- dual mean using creative spelling
first, Hi to Dolan, good to see him posting instead of lurking... anonymously
Second announcing that I was headed a little off subject, kinda like this post... :roll:
Todd, I thought I saw the mount (panel type) in one of the pictures, but not really the attachment. The ingenuity of LSR guys during the packaging process is always interesting.
Scott must have already learned the sacrificial Tach method, and if you are not using all the bills and whistles, then a cheap tach will work fine.
Is that your Indian? Customer? 51? 52?
OK kids, back to subject,
Vibration comes in a variety of frequencies, the trouble is finding an isolator to kill the freq that is damaging your stuff without using thousands of dollars worth of lab equipment. Rubber kills a wide range depending on stiffness. You should use something stiffer than you think most of the time. Trial and error is how most of us do it. Finding the right parts, built for rugged use is always a good start. If a part holds up to drag racing every weekend, it might work for a couple of years of LSR... :|
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a lot of mc tachs used on harleys turn to junk . have heard 'to get the cheapest one you can' from more than a few people. am looking into an inexpensive digital one now . more on it later.
franey
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Hi Jack(D)-- dual mean using creative spelling
first, Hi to Dolan, good to see him posting instead of lurking... anonymously
Second announcing that I was headed a little off subject, kinda like this post... :roll:
Agreed on all counts...
And I can't believe i missed the Jack D. innuendo :oops: - my hair (yeah, when I had it) has never even been blonde
Todd, I thought I saw the mount (panel type) in one of the pictures, but not really the attachment. The ingenuity of LSR guys during the packaging process is always interesting.
I hear ya on the packaging process... like many of us I 'm sure, I've used alot of non functioning items just for placement and to make sure there isn't an intrudence issue or anything on the way in and on test rides (on both LSR and street bikes). From pill bottles taped together to mock up the air shifter placement to my cardboard gastanks and spray foam tail sections... it saved me a lot of money, time and grief.
Scott must have already learned the sacrificial Tach method, and if you are not using all the bills and whistles, then a cheap tach will work fine.
I love sacrificial gimmees... the "piston throw" for the kids at our last party was as big as the "eggrod run" and the "pin the biker on the harley"... I'm sure the next one will include a "tach toss" for sure.
Is that your Indian? Customer? 51? 52?
Good eye, Bob. 1953 actually... it's the 159th from the last documented Chief off the line when the factory shut down in '53.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/1953%20Indian%20Chief/000_0120-53L.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/1953%20Indian%20Chief/000_0122-53r.jpg)
It was found by a soldier buried in a ditch in Iraq by a customer of mine (multi tour Major in the Army). It couldn't have been found by a better person and will get the trreatment it dedserves whene the time comes. Other then the bars and the impromptu regulator mount, etc, it's all stock and as you can imagine, will one day (post restoration and post war) be a very well known bike.
OK kids, back to subject,
Vibration comes in a variety of frequencies, the trouble is finding an isolator to kill the freq that is damaging your stuff without using thousands of dollars worth of lab equipment. Rubber kills a wide range depending on stiffness. You should use something stiffer than you think most of the time. Trial and error is how most of us do it. Finding the right parts, built for rugged use is always a good start. If a part holds up to drag racing every weekend, it might work for a couple of years of LSR... :|
A PPG distributor neighbor of mine wanted me to put my tachs on his paint shaker... I didn't see the relevancy until I saw the GIANT paint shaker HD motor factory used on the v-rod developement. I still couldn't bring my self to putting my new tachs(no matter how cheap) on that thing. I told him after looking at his paint shaker in action I told him that it didn't have anything on my ironhead going down Maxton's track... I think I could break his paint shaker before the half mile mark if he'd let me mount it on my bike. :-D
Out of curiosity (as I'm sure the 3 of you have had your hands on some awesome stuff) , what would the least costly way to check or aquire an actual frequency reading at different places on a vehicle?
Todd
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Is that your Indian? Customer? 51? 52?
Good eye, Bob. 1953 actually... it's the 159th from the last documented Chief off the line when the factory shut down in '53.
It was found by a soldier buried in a ditch in Iraq by a customer of mine (multi tour Major in the Army). It couldn't have been found by a better person and will get the treatment it deserves when the time comes. Other then the bars and the impromptu regulator mount, etc, it's all stock and as you can imagine, will one day (post restoration and post war) be a very well known bike.
The 53 is fairly rare, and in Iraq... wow very very cool, I can hardly wait.
Out of curiosity what would the least costly way to check or acquire an actual frequency reading at different places on a vehicle?
Todd
It would be with the thousands of dollars worth of instrumentation that I mentioned. I learned over the years, as you change things, the vibration frequency in the area will change as well. Yes I said area, because there are lots of different vibration frequencies all over any vehicle. Most vibration isolators are built to target a specified frequency, usually to isolate the frequency most likely to damage the part you want to protect... :| so you have to know the frequencies that will likely damage your part, also determined with thousands of dollars worth of equipment and some sacrificial parts.
Soooo... those of us without the benefit of deep pockets and unlimited development budget just use the trial and error method.
Again, use something firmer or stiffer than you think would kill the vibration. For a panel mount gauge, I would start with a firm rubber ring between the gauge and panel mountings.
Encapsulated circuit boards are the most resistant to failure, so as expected, a digital unit will probably hold up better than one with moving parts and internal wires to break at the solder joint. Of course an old school guy prefers to see the needle..... :wink:
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Thanks, good info and have to agree with the digital, the programmable part still works in my old VDO, it's the spring and all went out in the mechanical area of it.
Of course an old school guy prefers to see the needle..... :wink:
Even us young (new school or preschool) guys prefer to see the needle too...
but then again so does a junkie, that doesn't necessarily make it right. :-D
Todd
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Vibration comes in two basic forms. Plain old shaking and harmonics. Harmonics are related to something reacting to the primary vibration and reacting with a secondary vibration. If you want to see it in action, open the top of a piano and shout into it and listen to the piano answering back.
Harmonics vary with the resonant frequency, in this case the rpm of the engine and the rpm of the wheels. Your tach could be smooth as glass at 7,000 rpm and shake like a mother at 8,000. If you put a vibration analyzer on the frame you would see multiple peaks as you raise the rpm. Small changes affect it. Bolting a small piece of lead weight will change the frequency. Lead dampens everything. Tuning problems with carburetors is sometimes related to severe vibration. I fixed a persistent tuning problem on a Triumph dirt tracker with solder wrapped around the carb.
I would use a digital tach and skip the mechanical version.
Trying to analyze it to come up with a solution is a huge waste of time. There are tons of commercial vibration isolators that were designed by engineers.
Bolt it solid? Guaranteed to destroy it. Not just the tach, but everything electronic. Everything.
The Lord corporation makes a gazillion different products.
http://www.lord.com/Home/ProductsServices/VibrationShockMotionControlProducts/tabid/3280/Default.aspx (http://www.lord.com/Home/ProductsServices/VibrationShockMotionControlProducts/tabid/3280/Default.aspx)
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The Cosworth 180 degree crank V-8 was notorious for its severe vibration. A good friend related the story of the first track test of their Gulf Mirage with a newly- installed Cosworth DFV. I think it was Derek Bell who took the car out for a few laps and brought it into the pits. "Well, how was it?" my friend asked. "I don't know" the driver replied. "What do you mean?" questioned my friend. "Look" said the driver, pointing to all the needles of the instruments lying at the bottom of the dials.
Now THAT is vibration! The DFV vibration eventually broke almost everything on the car.
Regards, Neil Tucsun, AZ
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have gone through another autometer mc tach . this weekend i should have new solid state
tach installed and motor fired up. it's 2x3x3/4 , $72 and 3 diff. ign. settings w/ hi recall. will know if it works for v-twins, though not in a race environment. try sendec-products.com. model sts 5000 . anyone know of this tach?
franey
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still waiting on new tach.
franey
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the sts 5000 seems to be accurate and the hi rpm recall works. it will be hard to see at speed because of size. will try to break it next sept.
franey