Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on October 04, 2008, 03:29:56 PM
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This is a long winded question, bare with me!
I have been toying with the idea of bigger displacement.
I know that I can get a busa motor easily to G but was looking for more. TO get a busa motor to G will max out the motor and still be early in the G class.
Currently, I was hoping to be able to de-stroke a motor to G, allow me to run stock displacement in F and then be able to stroke the motor to E. (this I know may not be possible but I would like to be able to run G and F in the next few years.
My problem is that the axles are located mid way over the available engine compartment.
I have not found a good deal of suitable mid engine choices. An engine-transaxle out of a mid engine would be easy but most mid engine are low in the CCs (and to be honest a Ferrari motor is a bit out of my price range!).
I have also considered how F1 cars mate a V8 to a Hewland type gearbox....but it seems that it would push the motor very far forward and into the passenger compartment.
My question is that I am looking for a way to get more CI with the drive under the motor. I have considered the idea of using a FWD motor/ trans combo and converting it to RWD. Has anyone ever hear of doing this, or is it more trouble than it would be worth?
I also remember seeing a GT40/ Pantera type vehicle that had a rear facing V8 that used a "V" drive (?)to transfer power to a rear end. I have searched for this V drive but I can not find anything close to what I remember. I think that I have seen the same type V drive in drag boats but this was years ago. If anyone can point me into the direction of this V drive I would like to consider it as an option to transfer power.
If anyone has any suggestions (even if they are way out of the box) for me to put a larger CI motor in this mid-engine car I would greatly appreciate it (also looking for engine suggestions as well).
My ultimate goal is to eventually have an LS6 motor (or other DOHC V8) in there; this however is in the future. If I could get an F or E would be a good place to start.
-JH
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Jonny - Whats the Fiero setup. I've also seen V8's in these things. Ernie
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I would also look at a frt wheel dr. set ups and just lock it straight... seen many Tornado set ups in sand cruisers back in the 70's
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Fieros were basically the C car or X car? front wheel drive - converted to rear - something about the fiero having to be built with off the shelf parts. My racing buddy is crazy for fieros and knows all about em - currently he is running a 4.3 Northstar cadillac V- 8 in the fiero -
To tell you the truth I never paid much attention to what he was telling me - or how he did it - because he's just crazy! but if you want to know anything about how fieros did it - and what works and doesn't work in engine swaps etc - he's your guy.
Carl Johansson
Let me know if you want to talk with him
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What I have is a Fiat......not a Fiero (not really much diff though!).
The northstar Fieros are well known and I am fully considering this setup to put in the Fiat. THe Fiero is however 11" wider, this might be a problem.
Anyone have any ideas about the "V" drive I mentioned?
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If anyone has any suggestions (even if they are way out of the box) for me to put a larger CI motor in this mid-engine car I would greatly appreciate it (also looking for engine suggestions as well).
Might a Taurus SHO transaxle be a starting point? 5 speed, pulled a 3500 lb car with 225 hp around pretty well. Jay Leno has a V6 SHO engine and tranny stuffed into the back of a Ford Festiva -
http://www.supercars.net/garages/Dodge%20Spirit%20RT/1v2.html
By the by, I LOVE the new nose job!
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Looks like one of the Ree-noo things.
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http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=44
I found the V drives.
I am not sure but I think that I can use one of these to mount a front engine RWD engine-trans backwards in the car and have the V-drive send power to the rear end under the motor.
If I can work out the spacing I should be able to mount an almost limitless array of engine-transmission combos this way.
BTW:
Here is something I found when searching for the V-drives.
I guy is building a Vette powered trike (uses the a v-drive almost exactly how I am considering).
Cool build!
http://sareusa.com/
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My question is that I am looking for a way to get more CI with the drive under the motor. I have considered the idea of using a FWD motor/ trans combo and converting it to RWD. Has anyone ever hear of doing this, or is it more trouble than it would be worth?
I've seen it online, but not in person, and don't know if it was finished project or not. Obviously you need to make sure you're suspension setup and handling will turn out ok. Unfortunately I can't find a link
I can't think of a reason it wouldn't be workable.
Edit: I thought of one other place that has done this, the stunt cars at Universal Studios have the engines "moved to the rear" for a better COG for the stunt show, but I believe they are actually using motorcycle engines, but am fairly certain they are using a half-shaft type setup. Might be worth a vacation :-D I'm not finding anything useful online, but more info the better right? :?
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Check out Bob Norwoods Ferrari with a turbocharged big block in the back.I think it had a v drive in it
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You know, having now seen the v-drive unit (thanks for posting the link), I'm wondering if you might not be able to modify a transfer case to work? I'm certainly not a 4WD kind of a guy (despite my Iowa upbringing), and I've never taken one apart, but you DID ASK for ideas outside of the box.
My chief concern with redirecting the power like this would be parasitic loss.
But I completely understand the lack of space issue. I've enjoyed your build diaries, and I suspect you're going to figure this one out.
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I have seen a car built with the engine set quite low, but OK by Bonneville standards. The trans output shaft went under and to one side of the differential. Which was reversed so that the driveshaft yoke faced rear. A transfer case or V drive/change gear box went from the trans output up and over to the pinion yoke. Makes a very tight package.
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Hey I have been following your car postings for some time, Great job. I saw something that might work, especially if you change out the center section/ differential housing. Get a look at an older toyota tercel I beleive with AWD. It has an inline engine mounted with the belhousing facing rearword. Then the tranny is like a transfer case as it splits the power to the rear and to the front to the diff. which has the pinion yoke bolted right to it,sitting under the engine.
good luck HAGEN
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I have seen a car built with the engine set quite low, but OK by Bonneville standards. The trans output shaft went under and to one side of the differential. Which was reversed so that the driveshaft yoke faced rear. A transfer case or V drive/change gear box went from the trans output up and over to the pinion yoke. Makes a very tight package.
I agree with Rich and would look at making or having made the "change gear box" you mentioned using common quick change gears as that would solve a lot of gearing problems also. The Walla Walla, WA Studebaker guys.......
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bville-cars-3/761-1-06.jpg)
.... made their own in-line box (between the trans. and rearend) using quick change gears and something similar could be made to take the place of a V drive.
c ya,
Sum
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Look into the Casale V-drive. John Burk is using one in his streamliner. http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/Bonneville.htm
Although I suspect you are rather limited in the space department in the Fiat.
Also consider the Mitsubishi Evolution drive train. At 2 liters one of them just ran 221 at Maxton in 'street trim'. Get the half shafts cut down to fit the tread spec of the fiat. (yeah - easier said than done)
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The "transfer case - conventional axle" arrangement requires the axle/diff to be inverted (because the pinion is now faced rearwards). That will take some thinking regarding lubrication and drainback. Note that transfer cases (either idler geared or chain drive) will need some cooling help (part of the reason the owners manuals have a recommended top speed in 4WD-Hi range).
I know many of the chain drive type units have a gear oil pump, so it should be possible to add radiator w/ fan. After visiting with Kent R., I need to learn more about those pumps and how to cool off a chain! I suspect part of the advantage of Hi Vo is the ability to give up heat (it is even used in aircraft powertrains, using engine oil pressure as the cooling spray, in an enclosed drive).
After reading the previous posts, I realized why the boat V-drives might be good...since boats are "always going uphill, and never coast" at anything above trolling speed! They must have some pretty good bits in those things...I don't know anything about them, myself.
We sure are a group for "trying to build a better mousetrap", aren't we! :lol:
Regards, JimL
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Like previously mentioned you can build a V drive with some quick change gears. I saw Jack Costella build one for one of his liners. They are pretty simple to build. The Casale V drive is very nice http://www.casalev-drive.com/ and he will build it to any configuration you want.
This link is to the Honda Tech site and it has some nice pictures of a V drive set up for a drag car. http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1951022&page=1
Also some time ago G-Force built a trans that was side ways mounted for the sport compact drag guys. All the air logic and lines were inside the trans making for a very clean piece.
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Thanks for the info, I feel like I am getting a few ideas.
Here is the pic that found that got the idea in my head. *this is on a Ferio site but this IS a Fiat (http://www.fieroaddiction.com/images/misc/Fiat1.jpg)
http://www.fieroaddiction.com/fiat.html
This is a V6 but you can see that there is a good bit of room in the front of the engine and still some on the sides (is the Chev SB V8 wider then the V6???).
This guys transaxle dictated where the motor sat in the bay. If I could use a V drive the length of the drive lines would dictate where the motor sits.
I think the V drive is going to be the answer!
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It is wider than 2.8 3.1 3.4 eng. series --there are no real good head castings for that series--I would look at 4.0 Northstar V-8 or 3.5 "Shortstar" V-6
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is the Chev SB V8 wider then the V6???
I suspect so, that V6 looks like a 60°.
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Thumbing through some reference materials, I clipped a page from either Rod and Custom or Hot Rod that listed some V8 dimensions. Width is to the outside of the stock manifolds, or the widest point in the case of the 4.6 Fords, height is bottom of the stock oil pump to the top of the air cleaner and length is from the stock accessory drive to the back of the block.
Block Width Length Height
SBC 26" 28" 27"
BBC 28" 30 1/2" 29"
SBF 24" 29" 27 1/2" (351W +3")
Cleveland 24 1/2" 29" 28 1/2"
429-460 27" 30" 29" (No info on Boss)
FE 27" 32" 29" (No info on SOHC)
4.6 SOHC 28 5/8" 28" 26"
4.6 DOHC 30" 28" 29 7/8"
SB Mopar 24" 29" 27"
BB Mopar 29 1/2 30" 29" (Article did not differentiate between "B" or "RB" - caution!)
426 Hemi 29" 32" 32"
Obviously these are rough dimensions.
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Milwaukee Midget:
Whatever you get paid.....its not enough!!!!!
Good info!!!!!!
-JH
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JH, if my memory is working correctly it seems to recall an old neighbor had a Lexus sc300 coupe. This car had an inline 6 mounted front to back, but the trans converted it to front wheel drive. Sorta kinda like the Olds Toronados did. Maybe an option to consider? Although I think all those overpriced Toyotas were automatic trans.
You can get reverse rotation third members and gears for the Ford 9-inch rearends, as well as many others that were used in the fornt differential of 4x4 trucks. The reverse rotation solves your oiling issues and using the coast side of the ring gears of a standard roation diff.
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http://www.truehi9.com/index.html - makes high pinion 9" third members and gears which if you flip them right to left would be low pinion reverse rotation but the ratios are all in the 4's and 5's . G-force makes reverse rotation output 5 speeds - http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/images/g5-rev/g5-rev1.jpg . Halibrant made reverse rotation QC's . All rears to some extent can drive on the coast face of the teeth . Some or all 4wd front axles drive that way . When you build streamliners with odd ball drive lines you learn this stuff .
John Burk
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My experience has been that driving on the coast side of the crown gear leads to very sharp crown gear teeth very quickly. This is not good!
Pete
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Not sure if this would work for you, but a Civic/Accord trans from a few years back was set up for engines that rotate backwards from everything else. You could turn the transaxle around, and run a different engine behind the axle line. This would give you the forward gears. The Honda trans are tough. Might be a problem for the diff gears....I really don't know. Lots of good parts available for those, both trans and diff.
Just brainstorming your interesting dilemma!
Regards, JimL
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This is a long winded question, bare with me!...................My ultimate goal is to eventually have an LS6 motor (or other DOHC V8) in there; this however is in the future. If I could get an F or E would be a good place to start.
Seeing what your long term goal is I would look at a transmission like a G-Force, Jerico, etc., so you could change gear ratios, run it as an overdrive with very little rpm drop going into 4th or 5th, etc.. Of course I also can't see packaging a LS type motor in there and still getting you and all the other items you will need in the car.
At some point you might also have to look at changing vehicles, just my opinion,
Sum
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At some point you might also have to look at changing vehicles, just my opinion,
A new chassis would of course be necessary, but I see no reason why a front engine wouldn't work with his body.
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My mid- engine modified sports uses a Donovan (SBC) driving a Porsche G50 transaxle but the tranny is mounted upside down so that I have 5 speeds forward instead of reverse. This is one way to deal with reverse rotation.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ