Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: willieworld on September 27, 2008, 08:36:26 PM
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i would like to run in the fuel and gas class --ive been running nos and havent had much luck--i would like to switch to alcohol for the fuel class---any help would be greatly appreciated thanks willie buchta
my motor is a 1000cc pushrod motor with 10.250 to 1 compression --it has a 3.50 bore and a 3.125 stroke --i shift it at 7000 rpm-------------------------------------
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You run a harley,,, put nitro in it for fuel class...
jonAmo
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I dont know too much about alcohol but I think you will need about 3points more compression to make it work.
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Willie:
Try Bob Wood at www.woodcarbs.com ...he was very helpful when I called him for help with cylinder heads even though it wasn't his product.
RC
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willie, do you really want to make that switch, and make
much less potential hp..........for a fair amount of extra work.......
I fully realize your losing confidence in the nitrous..........
imho......there are two choices to poor mans hp........nitrous
or turbo............
and though I garnered some speed with nitrous...it took awhile....and
in the long run.......it would have been infinitely cheaper to go turbo
much sooner........
but if your persistent enough.....you CAN make the nitrous work for
you and not against you.........although.........air cooled definately
makes it abit more challenging........
dont give up yet....we all have more persistence than money....
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Joe---NOBODY---has earned the right to post on this subject than YOU!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
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Joe---NOBODY---has earned the right to post on this subject than YOU!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
Unless it is me... :| Willie, there is a thread here about running N20, it has a lot of discussion about flowing your gas and N20 jets by weight to get your ratios right. If you don't have a fine filter on the gas add one. Joe is correct, N20 is cheap HP, you just have to eliminate the gremlins that inhabit that blue bottle... :roll:
if you really want to do alcohol, call Aaron at NRHS, they advertise on the site
See ya on the salt 8-)
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Yeah we can give you some tips on how to warm the nitrous bottle in the motel room on those really cool October mornings, we can further tell you the secrets on how to warm the nitrous bottle on the way to the salt in the cool mornings (dont need no stinkin bottle warmer) and how to survive using a 60 lb filler bottle that took a tumble down the highway at 75 mph.. .you know all those speed secrets, along with the highly developed Amo Anti Galling Compound that works VERY Well in Nitrous applications... We further developed it for Turbo motors...
JonAmo
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:evil:LOL :-D :cheers:
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one of my own personal goals (since there is no one in my class although i have ran 11 mph over the minimum at el mirage) was to run faster than the A-PF record which is 153 and change ---im only about 11 mph off --i should of did that 11 mph first and then i would have the easy 11 mph left --20 20 hindsight --im going to run in the gas class at the world finals then switch back to the fuel class for the last 2 races at el mirage this year and see if i can get it done -----thanks guys see you on the salt willie buchta
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Willie,
we ran over 150lb of nitrous through a stock yamaha engine over three years trying to catch Joe Amo!
Never did beat him but we never hurt a stock engine (60hp kit)
We changed pistons and went through some problems thou.
Bottle size and pressure are important as well as fuel pressure. A low fuel px switch can save you an engine. the fuel pumps that are supplied in the kits are usually junk throw a high quality pump with regulator on and you should be flying. we picked up 26mph with a 60 shot and 21 mph with a 40 shot.
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The power added by nitrous is tough to beat.
If you are going to run methanol it isn't too tough. It runs much cooler than gasoline, just twice as much. You gain about 22 percent over gasoline. You would have to just about double the area of the jets over gasoline. You would need about 6 degrees more advance for the different burn characteristics. Methanol has a high affinity for water. You have to be careful in storage to keep it sealed and off the concrete or it can go south in a hurry. Methanol and nitromethane attack metals and rubber so it's a good idea to run gasoline through the system when you are finished with the race.
The real gains are made with nitromethane. 122 percent more power than with gasoline. But you don't have to run big percentages. If it was me, I would start with 20% nitromethane and 80% methanol. Very manageable for your motor with significant gains over gasoline. Your current compression should handle that, with about 40 degrees total advance for the slow burn characteristics. At 20% you would be about 22% larger in jet area over 100% methanol.
Always push to the rich side. Like methanol, nitromethane has a strong tendency to pre-ignition, but unlike methanol it has a much lower knock rating, it will detonate. The plugs should be about 2 ranges colder than you run with gasoline.
If you up the percentage you need to back off the compression ratio. At 50% you should be running 12:1 compression ratio. Maybe 9:1 for 75%.
As I write this I tell myself not to write a book, but its hard. Running fuel can be as hard as nitrous, but mostly when you start tipping the can hard.
In either case, there is no substitute for running it on the dyno and test runs before the race.
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hopefully Aaron Wilson of NRHS will chime in as he has
developed all three of these "applications"......and most importantly
on your choice of powerplant.......air cooled v-twin baby......
if he doesnt chime in.......get ahold of him........he is awesome.....all three
choices "look easy".......
Max would be a great choice as well.....
on the nitro thing...
and Willie.......GOOD ON YOU....for having the wisdom to seek
insight....
Joe :)
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Willie has the advantage of several thousand years of experience available on his keyboard.
When I started running fuel there was no such thing. You had to ask around and the advice you got was either good or terrible depending on the source, but you had no way of knowing. So I blew up a bunch of stuff learning. It was still terrific fun.
I heard a comment back in the 60's, and I forgot who the tuner was, when his rider dominated an AMA national race some one commented that that was a perfect race. His reply was that the engine was still running at the end of the race. For it to be perfect, as the rider crossed the finish line a lap ahead of everyone else, the engine had to explode, the fuel tank had to be empty, and the frame had to break in two. That would be perfect. Otherwise the engine still had more power to give, too much fuel was carried and the frame was too heavy.
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i used to tell everyone that all of the knowledge of mankind is written in a book at the library---now its at your fingertips in your own home--- but most people are sending stupid jokes or playing a stupid game ---go figure--------------------willie buchta
google is at the bottom of this page
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Stainless1 - can you point me to the thread about bench testing? I can't locate it for the life of me...
Thanks Josh.
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you can start here
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2685.0.html
JonAmo
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Yep, after you read that then search the forum home page for nitrous... :-P and after you read all of those, ask lots of questions. N20 can kill your motor even when it seems everything is working properly, it only takes a little hiccup. Plan to carry a lot more than you need for 1 run and fill the bottle every run.
Have fun, see ya on the salt 8-)
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Guys,
Thanks for the replies. I think I have already read just about every thread using 'nitrous' in the search field. I have a couple pages of notes to prove it! I recall a discussion on determining fuel/nitrous jetting using ratio by weight during a bench test - this is the one I can't seem to locate. It's not in the thread that Jon pointed to. Do you guys happen to know this ratio?
Josh
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josh --i think that was me --ill see if i can find the thread--but then what the hell do i know---3 pases 3 blown up motors --nitrous is pretty easy in low doses but when you get greedy K BOOM --i thought i had it figered out---my advise is to bolt on a turbo at least then there still plugs to read----willie buchta
josh its in the BUILD DIARIES under CBR 1000 A/F by oz
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i was going to run methanol back when. very forgiving fuel ,easy on parts . put as much compression as possible. still have my notes ,etc. think i saved your #,w/ call this wk.
franey
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Guys,
Thanks for the replies. I think I have already read just about every thread using 'nitrous' in the search field. I have a couple pages of notes to prove it! I recall a discussion on determining fuel/nitrous jetting using ratio by weight during a bench test - this is the one I can't seem to locate. It's not in the thread that Jon pointed to. Do you guys happen to know this ratio?
Josh
Josh,
I probably would not use that method that he discussed... I would rather use the methods that have worked for many others... Which is flow each jet you plan on using for nitrous with nitrous and each one used for fuel, flowed with fuel.
Jon
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jon---some times i just gotta do what i can afford----i could have spent the money on nitrous and flowed all of my jets or spent it on gas for the truck and went to bonneville --not a tough choice for me---willie buchta
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jon---some times i just gotta do what i can afford----i could have spent the money on nitrous and flowed all of my jets or spent it on gas for the truck and went to bonneville --not a tough choice for me---willie buchta
Good choice. You have to determine what your budget is and stick to it. Having unlimited dyno time and complete computer readout for every variable would be great, but most of us would rather eat on a regular basis.
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OK guys this is what I think I know, my notes are in Denver. 5:1 is safe and rich, 6:1 is leaner and a bit riskier. Running rich only looses a little HP, just don't go too rich, that has its own set of problems. How do you know the ratio? We used a very accurate scale, flowed each gas jet to get sets that flowed the same. Yes this implies that all #22 jets are not the same... We used baby food jars, a stopwatch and flowed and weighed as accurately as possible. Same with the N20. We put the bottle on the scale, flowed and measured, keeping bottle pressure stable at the number we planned to race. Be aware, N20 changes pressures quickly and goes gaseous at Bonneville temps. Some folks plan for gaseous, some plan for liquid. There is more VE in liquid. Then all you need to do is calculate so you run 5 lbs of N20 for every pound of enrichment fuel. Also be aware, the bottle gets cooler as you use N20 and the pressure decreases, so it you plan gaseous, and it goes liquid, you are now quite lean, plan on a hole in something.... if you are lucky, the decreased pressure of liquid will not get you too lean if you planned the higher pressure gas, that is also why 5 is better than 6. There is a big jump when it goes to gas, easy to tell. Seems like 950 is liquid, then 1175 its gas.
Hope this helps. Don't trust drag race kits at Bonneville unless they have gotten a lot better, if you go with their jet combos, turn the fuel pressure up a little beyond their recommendation.
Smart guys feel free to correct my memory as required.
See ya on the salt 8-)
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1 5lb bottle of nos flow testing your jets is far cheeper than 1 blown motor
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1 5lb bottle of nos flow testing your jets is far cheeper than 1 blown motor
Do you think? I/FL 221.183 my red hat and Stainless as the crew chief!
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1 5lb bottle of nos flow testing your jets is far cheeper than 1 blown motor
Do you think? I/FL 221.183 my red hat and Stainless as the crew chief!
What Johnboy failed to say is we had the car over 200 a dozen times before we decided that the N20 info and equipment available at the time didn't work so well over the long haul.... :|
We probably "wasted" 20 to 30 pounds of N20 during the flow tests, or about $60.... (much cheaper that a piston) but we were really "happy" almost giddy during the tests. (We were lucky that the only N20 that our gas supplier had on hand was medical grade and didn't smell bad)
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Thanks Stainless,
Those were the numbers that I was looking for! I'll start with 5:1 (and compare to my existing jetting) just to be on the conservative side - adjust from there. When you guys get into fine tuning where do you draw the line between adjusting fuel pressure verses going to the next jet. Probably more of a personal preference question but I'm curious.
I'm well aware of the deficiencies of the drag style systems. I have been completely shocked with the instability of those systems over relatively short runs.
Josh
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i see its been a while sence you bought nitrous ---i remember paying 21 cents a gallon for gas to----------willie buchta
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Thanks Stainless,
Those were the numbers that I was looking for! I'll start with 5:1 (and compare to my existing jetting) just to be on the conservative side - adjust from there. When you guys get into fine tuning where do you draw the line between adjusting fuel pressure verses going to the next jet. Probably more of a personal preference question but I'm curious.
Josh
We switched when we went outside a test parameter. If you use enough you can bend an S in a Carillo... :|
i see its been a while sence you bought nitrous ---i remember paying 21 cents a gallon for gas to----------willie buchta
Willie, last N20 I bought was in 2001, I think it was $2.40 a pound, probably still have 40 in the tank unless the guys at the shop have been filling balloons again :roll:
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stainless i did what you said and flowed the nitrous jet with nitrous--here are the results my bike with a #24 jet flowed 1 lb of nitrous in 30 seconds which is 448 grams --i flowed the gas jet with gas and it flowed 92 grams of gas --488 / 5 = 89.6 ---sheris bike flowed 180 grams of nitrous and 34.44 grams of gas --180 / 5 = 36 i think we are in the ballpark --wasnt as bad as i thought about 20 dollars worth of nitrous thanks for the info willie buchta