Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Chaz on September 26, 2008, 11:14:37 PM
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OK, I'm looking at the really fast guys and am having trouble with the records. Of these folks,who holds what records and in what classes ? ? ? ? and under what sanctioning body?
Teague
Summers Brothers
Vesco
Burkland
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Search these:
http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_a.htm (http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_a.htm)
http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_International.htm (http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_International.htm)
http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_bikes.htm (http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/Bonneville/BNIrecs_bikes.htm)
and whereever the FIA records are.
Mike
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Chaz, I searched (on Yahoo) for FIA Landspeed Records) with good result. Wayno
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OK, I'm talking wheel driven cars. Here's what I'm seeing:
Fastest wheel driven car is Vesco at 458+ Turbinator
Fastest piston driven (blown) Burklands at 417+
Fastest piston driven (unblown) Summers Bros at 406+
Is this correct?
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Burklands record is at 417 but they did 450 mph, one way in 2001, Summers Bros Goldenrod was at 409 mph, but the car went 425 mph (one way) the day after they set their record, Nov, 12 1965.
Jim Keeler
artmodelman@yahoo.com
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Alright, to get it real clarified:
We are talking about FIA Speed records.
Al Teague set in 1991 a record in the blown engine class 11 a record from 409+ mph/mile and 425+ mph/kilo
Al Teague set in 2002 a record in the blown engine class 10 a record from 405+ mph/mile and 406+ mph/kilo
Bob Summers set in 1965 a record in the unblown engine class 11 a record from 409+ mph/mile and kilo
Don Vesco set in 2001 a record in the turbine catagorie weight class III a record from 458+ mph/mile and kilo
Tom Burkland set in 2008 a record in the blown engine class 11 a record from 415+ mph/mile but no record for the kilo.
The record which Tom Burkland broke was the Al Teague 1991 mile record.
Tom Bukland holds also a SCTA/BNI AA/BFS record - 2004 - from 417 mph - he broke the record from Nolan White from 413 mph from 2002.
Hope now this answered the question
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Under what sanctioning body did Bob Summers set his record?
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Thanx, Porky
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Chaz---read PP post!!!!!!!!!! :-D
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Chaz---read PP post!!!!!!!!!! :-D
Sparky,
Lets make it easier..
Bob Summers set in 1965 a record in the unblown engine class 11 a record from 409+ mph/mile and kilo
That would be FIA...right porkpie..
J
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Yeap...John
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Into this topic I now place a question that could make me the most unpopular person writing into this forum ...... ever. (beating Propster right out of the park).
Did Al Teague set the FIA flying start kilometre record at the speed stated on the FIA website?
The FIA lists Al Teague's flying start kilometre record in A - I - 11, on the 21st August 1981, as 425.050 mph (684.052 kph) for the flying start kilometre. The mile average on the same day is recorded as 409.695 mph (659.340 kph).
I was not there and I have not seen the FIA timesheets for the runs that Al made, but I have now been shown copies of SCTA timing slips that were faxed to a journalist in the UK on 6th September 1991 and subsequently published, showing the speeds recorded along the course for runs at 5.52 pm and 6.40 pm.
If these are accurate and if they refer to the two runs that were used to average for the record speeds and would have been subsequently ratified by the FIA, then the published record of 425 mph cannot be a accurate.
I am not able to copy by scanning the document that I have (and that would be unfair on those involved) but I shall quote the figures and I have to suggest that they do not confirm such a high speed. Al set a kilometre record that day but not at the (higher) speed that every one has since had to aim at plus 1%.
Down run @ 5.52 pm
2 1/4 mile - no speed stated
3 mile - 387.067 mph
4 mile - 408.121 mph
Kilo - 422.438 mph
132 trap - 432.692 mph
5 mile - 425.230 mph
My only query with this string is that I thought the 132 trap would have come at the end of mile 5.
Return run @ 6.40 pm
(the order is reversed on the slip to follow the passage of the car).
132 trap - 384.615 mph
5 mile - 394.602 mph
Kilo - 398.577 mph
4 mile - 411.852 mph
3 mile 351.627 mph.
The FIA work with averages of time for each pass but they are rigid that the timed section has to remain the same piece of track or salt. So each mile 5 is paired, then mile 4 and so on. The kilo is it appears is on its own located between 4 and 5.
The speeds we see can be loosely averaged to give an indication of the records.
Mile - match both of the 4 mile of 408.121 and 411.852 to give 409.987 mph
Kilo - match just 422.438 and 398.577 to this gives 410.52 mph
The average for mile 5 is from 425.230 and 394.602 and these give 409.916. This pairing gave way to the slightly better mile 4 figure.
Someone may have written a figure down incorrectly in the time attained for one of the kilometre passes. Not even by using the fastest mile speed can Al Teague have set a record of 425.050 with only a single pass where just one distance is timed to give an average speed at 425.230 mph.
My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'? and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?
Has anyone got better information?
Malcolm UK
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French math :? maybe something was lost in the interpretation :| or a typo that continued moving forward.
Al still went fast for the day :cheers:
Now Tom went faster :cheers: :cheers:
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MP, the 132 ft. trap is in the last 132 ft. of the 5th mile. It is the 1st trap on the return leg. It is not used for records or qualiyfing. Gary Cagle was the timer at that time and any original records (printed and written) should be in the archives of SCTA-BNI.
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Malcolm UK,
I don't think bringing up this subject will make you "unpopular" at all. Al himself has stated that he "doesn't know where the 425 kilo comes from."
The confusing FIA rules, records, and classes will never take away from the monumental LSR achievements of Teague, Summers, Vesco, or Burkland.
Personally, I admire the outstanding record of precision timing established by men like Crocker, Cagle, Barrett, and, more recently, the Rice Bros. For me, the SCTA/BNI "book" is what truly counts in the world of LSR.
Willi
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It would not be french maths, as the committee only have to read a report presented to them with the times and speeds set out on it already done for them.
I understood the 132 feet but unsure why the order of times made them appear to be at different ends of the 5 mile. Was he SCTA/BNI acting for the FIA when Al ran?
I have met Al in the US and England, and whilst not able to speak openly with him in public on his achievements, it is interesting that he makes a quote reported above on the 425 mph kilo speed. It is also disturbing because the vehicle entrant has to make the record claim aided by the time keepers and steward's (overall and technical) reports. Who made the claim for Al then?
My point is that the recent Burkland speed could be the legitimate record for that class but they will not get the fullest kudos that they deserve and others named have got from around the automotive world. [The Goldenrod made a world tour after their bid. I have not seen the Burkland car live for ten years, it would be great to see it up close at the Birmingham NEC event or perhaps Goodwood in '09].
Malcolm
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17 years after the fact, I believe the obvious mile/kilo discrepancy is going to remain one of the many mysteries of LSR.
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....................My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'? and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?
Has anyone got better information?
Malcolm UK
I've always wondered about this also, but on my last night in Wendover (Friday) at the grocery store I was talking to the FIA guy at Cook's meet (sorry I can't remember your name), and this came up. He said at that meet that instead of the Kilo being setup in the middle of the mile like was done at this meet that the kilo was at the beginning of the mile and on I think the return the kilo was entered at the beginning of the mile and Al had a high speed for it, but then greatly reduced speed after it and from the end of it to the end of the mile his speed dropped way off. If the course was setup that way then there would have been almost 2000 feet at the end of the kilo to slow down in before the end of the mile.
Now looking at the numbers you posted I still don't see how it happened using those numbers, but are you absolutely sure those are the right numbers and are the mile figures right? With normal numbering going one way mile 5 is mile 3 going the other way or were the numbers turned around to represent the miles without that confusion? I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear or not and hopefully the FIA fellow will see this and post as he says he has started to read the board.
c ya,
Sum
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Malcolm, don't worry - you will be not less popular than before - and you was not the first who request this speed - and it was me to who Al said "he has no idea where this speed comes from.."
Also Al was to this time not aware that he run 425 mph in the kilo - first, the speed was in kph and not in mph on the certification, second, who cares in the US for the kilo :roll: in Europe we do....
I know the original time slip very well - Al showed me a copie he maked of for to safe this document....and when you look on you will come to same result as you. Correct is that Al slowed down after he left the kilo, still running in the mile on one of his run....but the speed different couldn't be so much.
When Al runs 2002 he blew his engine in the middle of the mile and on the average he lost only 5 mph....
When I asked in 2001 the FIA official if he knows where the big different comes from - he has no idea. Also Al was requesting this...the answer was the same...no idea....but it is certified so and it will be so in the record book for ever and one day someone will go faster...Tom Burkland can do it when the engines runs well and he can trust his parachute..
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Pork Pie - you hit the nail on the head - it's in the books and will not be changed - someone (hopefully Burkland) will come along and wipe out the mysterious 425 kilo record - you gotta love a challenge - just like waiting for Nish to conquer the Summers Bros. record - hopefully a few others (Herbert?) will join in again to keep all of us entertained & on the edge of our seats . . . especially with great "live" reporting from the salt like last week!
W.
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Personally, I admire the outstanding record of precision timing established by men like Crocker, Cagle, Barrett, and, more recently, the Rice Bros. For me, the SCTA/BNI "book" is what truly counts in the world of LSR.
Willi
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Don't forget that the FIA records set in the 90's were at USFRA meets. The Fred Larsen, Danny Boy streamliner and other FIA records were set at World of Speed with Carl Olsen from NHRA as the FIA certified observer at least one year. International politics may have clouded that fact.
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OK, all this begs another question. Do the various organizations recognize each others' records? :?
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Don't know if this helps this discussion or not, but it is interesting. A few of my pics of Al's Turnaround at 2002 World Finals.
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A couple more pics and Al's time slip
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FIA certification can take place anywhere their stewards are in attendance and have a chance to see engine displacements and the course to be sure both are accurate. The biggest problem is the cost to have them in attendance. The folks racing at Mike Cook's private meet came up with substantial $$$ for the opportunity to get FIA and FIM sanctioned records.
Any records set at sanctioned SCTA/BNI or USFRA meets are recognized by both organizations but the FIA and FIM observers have to be in attendance and be paid generously to have them sanction a record. The initial fee is only the beginning. It costs a racer $2500 in addition to get a printed certificate verifying their record and in the past it has taken up to a year to actually get the certificate in your hands. Nothing has changed since the early 1960's when I was on a pit crew for a record setting boat.
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A couple more pics and Al's time slip
Stumbled across this old thread. I have a couple of questions about this record. Perhaps someone reading this knows the answers.
- Is the timing slip for the first or second (up/down; out/return; not sure of the correct terminology) run?
- Was the 5-mile speed of 421.097 mph part of a record?
- Was this run part of an FIA record only, or was an SCTA record also set at the same time?
Thanks for any info anyone can provide.
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"Tricky" - see my posting on page 1. Not sure after six years we will get to know any more.
The 1522 run was the first of the 'pair' required for an FIA pass. I believe that run was from the highway towards floating mountain (can someone confirm that?).
The track was set out as a normal SCTA arrangement of the long course. So the SCTA can apply their same requirement to pair speeds over the same piece of real estate. In essence it was an SCTA event with FIA steward present for their World governance.
On private time or at the Cook Shootout there would only be a 'central' or 'centered' (to the track length available) kilo and mile traps thus taking out all opportunities for 'mixing' pieces of real estate.
The only way to actually see what the Steward reported would be to ask the FIA in Paris - or to make the request through the UK representative (appointed by the the MSA) on the Records Commission of the FIA. Ask for the run details which make up the average speeds.
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"Tricky" - see my posting on page 1. Not sure after six years we will get to know any more.
The 1522 run was the first of the 'pair' required for an FIA pass.
Thanks Malcolm. Your post was about 1991. The timing slip above (and my question) was about 2002.
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I took the above pics. Frankly I had thought this timing slip was from his return run, from the mountains towards the highway, however, it says it was the "down" run. And yes, it was at an SCTA meet back when I didn't understand as much about the salt scene as I do now, so I'm hot sure how he was able to carve out 2 hours in the middle of a meet to make his down/record runs.
Knapp
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I I don't know about way back in '92, but these days - at the Shootout - the "down" run is made from the mountain to the highway because that's where the pits are set up. Doing the turnaround at the team pit is way easier than having to trundle everything necessary way up to the mountain end to get ready for the return run. As examples, the Speed Demon pit and Amir's Spectre pit and the Burkland pit and the Nish pit - and others, I'm sure - are set up so the car can coast right into the parking area at the pit -- meaning there's no time lost in pushing the car from the end of the course and into the pit for the maintenance.
But - remember, that's what's being done these days. I don't know about 20-some years ago.
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It was definately a down run. We couldn't run those numbers on a return run due to a shorter distance to the clock.
Sid.
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Slim,
Al did his during World Finals one year. His "Down" run was actually "Up" and his Record run was "Down" as in back towards the highway. In the not so olde days, prior to Nolan White's fatal crash on his return run, all qualifying runs were done going North and all early morning record runs were done South towards the highway.
Knapp
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Slim,
Al did his during World Finals one year. His "Down" run was actually "Up" and his Record run was "Down" as in back towards the highway. In the not so olde days, prior to Nolan White's fatal crash on his return run, all qualifying runs were done going North and all early morning record runs were done South towards the highway.
Knapp
We only did that one time.
Sid.
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The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....
On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....
Al run the smaller displacement to give Nolan the opportunity to go the big displacement with his twin engine streamliner....Nolan had his accident the day before....
After the run Al was good for a couple cans of beer....I done some nice picture of his smile....
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Hey, Sid,
What's the "it" we only did one time? I'm thinking you mean ran an FIA record in the middle of an SCTA meet, because it was a bit strange.
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Correction, Nolan's crash was a qualifying run to the south as he felt he could really make a fast run to the north for his return run. All 3 chutes failed. I was the one who had to cut the cage off. The afternoon the day before he and son Rick brought me a picture of his car and we talked about his plans for the runs he planned the next morning. A sad day for all of LSR.
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The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....
On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....
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Thomas,
The timing slip shows the class as "A/BFS" so presumably the engine class was "A"? :-D Perhaps you slipped into 1930s terminology ...
More seriously, what I don't understand is why the 5-mile speed of 421.097 mph apparently didn't lead to an SCTA record. On the return run Al would have gone through the 5-mile before the engine blew in the FIA measured mile. If he was running faster than the first run this should have been enough to set an A/BFS record.
Oh, and can someone explain "BNI International Record"? There are seven (one of which is Al Teague) listed on the SCTA web site, set between 1999 and 2004. Does anyone try to set BNI International Records any more or are these frozen in history?
Thanks to all who can contribute to my understanding.
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Impound used to be in the mud about the 9. The Mayer is right uptown now. :cheers: :cheers:
Ron
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At that WF meet SCTA and FIA records did not run concurrently. Running the FIA was under the supervision of the late Land Speed Authority(LSA). Separate fees, officials and all the associated etc. BNI International records were the left over LSA records set under FIA procedures. BNI stopped involvement with FIA several years ago and those BNI International records were shown in the rule book until finally left for prosperity.
Mike Cook and his Shootout event are now the exclusive sanction of FIA/FIM records at Bonneville by decree of the organizations.
DW
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The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....
On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....
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Thomas,
The timing slip shows the class as "A/BFS" so presumably the engine class was "A"? :-D Perhaps you slipped into 1930s terminology ...
More seriously, what I don't understand is why the 5-mile speed of 421.097 mph apparently didn't lead to an SCTA record. On the return run Al would have gone through the 5-mile before the engine blew in the FIA measured mile. If he was running faster than the first run this should have been enough to set an A/BFS record.
Oh, and can someone explain "BNI International Record"? There are seven (one of which is Al Teague) listed on the SCTA web site, set between 1999 and 2004. Does anyone try to set BNI International Records any more or are these frozen in history?
Thanks to all who can contribute to my understanding.
The "B" is the FIA class - official it called Cl. 10....the biggest displacement is 11.....when we talk about FIA records, we (historian) are saying A, B , C.....which means 11, 10, 9....
under SCTA the biggest is AA
sorry for the confusion...I wrote this automatically.....
BNI International Records....when they run FIA records at the World Finals ..... Jim True and Don Vesco in 2001, Al Teague in 2002...the measure to the same time the Mile to BNI/SCTA and wrote this into the BNI Record book - this way Jim True run FIA 253 and BNI 248 - but this BNI was not set under the standard regulations....qualifying and next morning return run.....
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Into this topic I now place a question that could make me the most unpopular person writing into this forum ...... ever. (beating Propster right out of the park).
Did Al Teague set the FIA flying start kilometre record at the speed stated on the FIA website?
The FIA lists Al Teague's flying start kilometre record in A - I - 11, on the 21st August 1981, as 425.050 mph (684.052 kph) for the flying start kilometre. The mile average on the same day is recorded as 409.695 mph (659.340 kph).
I was not there and I have not seen the FIA timesheets for the runs that Al made, but I have now been shown copies of SCTA timing slips that were faxed to a journalist in the UK on 6th September 1991 and subsequently published, showing the speeds recorded along the course for runs at 5.52 pm and 6.40 pm.
If these are accurate and if they refer to the two runs that were used to average for the record speeds and would have been subsequently ratified by the FIA, then the published record of 425 mph cannot be a accurate.
I am not able to copy by scanning the document that I have (and that would be unfair on those involved) but I shall quote the figures and I have to suggest that they do not confirm such a high speed. Al set a kilometre record that day but not at the (higher) speed that every one has since had to aim at plus 1%.
Down run @ 5.52 pm
2 1/4 mile - no speed stated
3 mile - 387.067 mph
4 mile - 408.121 mph
Kilo - 422.438 mph
132 trap - 432.692 mph
5 mile - 425.230 mph
My only query with this string is that I thought the 132 trap would have come at the end of mile 5.
Return run @ 6.40 pm
(the order is reversed on the slip to follow the passage of the car).
132 trap - 384.615 mph
5 mile - 394.602 mph
Kilo - 398.577 mph
4 mile - 411.852 mph
3 mile 351.627 mph.
The FIA work with averages of time for each pass but they are rigid that the timed section has to remain the same piece of track or salt. So each mile 5 is paired, then mile 4 and so on. The kilo is it appears is on its own located between 4 and 5.
The speeds we see can be loosely averaged to give an indication of the records.
Mile - match both of the 4 mile of 408.121 and 411.852 to give 409.987 mph
Kilo - match just 422.438 and 398.577 to this gives 410.52 mph
The average for mile 5 is from 425.230 and 394.602 and these give 409.916. This pairing gave way to the slightly better mile 4 figure.
Someone may have written a figure down incorrectly in the time attained for one of the kilometre passes. Not even by using the fastest mile speed can Al Teague have set a record of 425.050 with only a single pass where just one distance is timed to give an average speed at 425.230 mph.
My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'? and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?
Has anyone got better information?
Malcolm UK
The kilo record is being officially reconsidered. Information from David Tremayne via Grand Prix Plus.
Coincidentally, the FIA Land Speed Records Commission is looking at the figures for Elwin ‘Al’ Teague’s kilometre run with his Speed- O-Motive Spirit of ’76 streamliner back in 1991. When I received this information to consider, as a member of that Commission, I was initially shocked that some retrospective correction was under consideration regarding a man I have long regarded to be a very fine fellow.
He piloted his beautiful homebuilt single-engined automotive pencil, which he affectionately called ‘Betsy’, to a class record speed of 409.978 mph for the mile and 425.050 mph for the kilometre at Bonneville that year. He told me when we met up a few months later: “I hope one day that I might get to be considered in the same stories as Ilston and Cobb [sic, he was referring to Le Recordman George Eyston and his erstwhile rival John Cobb],” without the faintest idea that, in going faster than either of them had in the Thirties, he was already standing proud in their illustrious company.
Over the years doubts have arisen over that kilo record, particularly after Tom Burkland beat Al’s mile speed but not the kilo, since there was such a large discrepancy between Al’s two marks.
It says everything about the fraternity of land speed racing – and about the character and integrity of Al Teague - that it was Al himself, rather than Tom, who was most concerned about the kilo speed. Incredibly, such is his disquiet that he is asking the Commission to rescind his kilo record in the belief that it was subject to an arithmetic error.
“I believe there has been an error in calculation of my 1991 Spirit of 76 kilo record speed,” he says, “and ask that the FIA void my kilo speed and allow Tom Burkland's to be certified with the FIA rather than remain the holder of an obvious error. However, if the appropriate documentation can be located from my 1991 record runs, I would be very pleased to have the corrected kilo speed listed as my team’s honest achievement.”
Now that truly is heroic, and summarises why the man in the machine will always be the more crucial part of the equation.
I hope David will not mind me quoting so extensively from the Russian Grand Prix edition of GP+.
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Tricky,
at first thanks for getting this old note back to the light and the information from David.
More information about this 425....
it was before Al set his last FIA record in 2002 when he has starts to talk with the FIA, that the FIA correct the list.
Jane was so kind and had sent me a photo of Al's 91 FIA record certification...I was also one who was confused about the numbers in FIA record list...and on the certification - in FIA tradition - the kilo speed was in km/h....
converting the km/h into mph it was 425 mph...
Talking the same year to Al at the salt he was very surprised when I told him this speed...he never had the idea to do a converting of the speed...so he was not aware of this number-
Al checked his information and a while later he contact me that this has to be an error that someone mixed a one way speed as the average of both runs....or something like that
so he starts to talk with the FIA...the answer to that time was more or less....it is so in the book....
Al would be the last who likes to have a record he had no rights for....he is a great example for one fair sportsman....
if now, also with the rewriting of the record lists after all the rule changes, and so I understand David's note, finally they follow the wish from Al to take care of the correct number, it would be great....especially for him and for the speed community.....
By the way, in 2002, when Nolan White tried to go for this record....this mistake was discussed at the salt with the "FIA" person....without any result...
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I asked the question on this forum in 2008 purely as a way of obtaining accurate information on what happened when Al set the records in the supercharged class.
I had not expected Al to bring up the kilo speed with the FIA or for that organisation (according to UK representative on the records commission) to heed his request to review the figures. Run figures which they and ACCUS/USAC (as the governing body) will surely have kept.
I only know the Burklands from passing them on the salt and e mail correspondence, however if they (Tom and the family team) have beaten the FIA mile and kilo speeds then that should be acknowledged.
In view of the speeds in the smaller capacity supercharged class, the '425' would be an admirable target to aim for anyway.
[A final thought - I hope the FIA consider long and hard the ratification fee (Euros) which would have been payable].
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As most of us know, Al has no interest in claiming something we never achieved. Nolan got in Al's face about this at one point that I thought was in really bad taste. Al just wants this corrected.
Sid.
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Run figures which they [the FIA] and ACCUS/USAC (as the governing body) will surely have kept.
Really??? :-o
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Did Al Teague set the FIA flying start kilometre record at the speed stated on the FIA website?
The FIA lists Al Teague's flying start kilometre record in A - I - 11, on the 21st August 1981 [should be 1991], as 425.050 mph (684.052 kph) for the flying start kilometre. The mile average on the same day is recorded as 409.695 mph (659.340 kph) [should be 409.978 mph (659.796 mph)].
Down run @ 5.52 pm
Kilo - 422.438 mph
Return run @ 6.40 pm
Kilo - 398.577 mph
Someone may have written a figure down incorrectly in the time attained for one of the kilometre passes. Not even by using the fastest mile speed can Al Teague have set a record of 425.050 with only a single pass where just one distance is timed to give an average speed at 425.230 mph.
My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'? and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?
Let's play 'predict the record'! :-D
When the FIA LSRC has completed its deliberations what will Al's 1991 km record be?
- 425.050 mph
- 410.183 mph
- 410.161 mph
- 410.160 mph
- None of the above - Al will still be credited with the record but at a different speed
- None of the above - no speed will be ratified (and the previous record will be rescinded)
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Tricky - to suggest that US timekeepers, the national governing body who completed the report to the FIA and the governing body itself do not hold onto their information for World and International records is somewhat harsh to say the least.
Because the speed is derived from averaging the times (in the FIA methods) of two consecutive runs,and not averaging the speeds, any guesses are almost irrelevant at the moment. Nearest is answer five on your list Tricky.
Having completed the runs safely there will be two times for Al through the kilo and as the man is so important to LSR I feel sure even someone at the event could have noted the figures. Perhaps that person has never been on landracing.com to answer my question of eight years ago.
Who was on the clocks ........... DW should know?
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Tricky - to suggest that US timekeepers, the national governing body who completed the report to the FIA and the governing body itself do not hold onto their information for World and International records is somewhat harsh to say the least.
Because the speed is derived from averaging the times (in the FIA methods) of two consecutive runs, and not averaging the speeds, any guesses are almost irrelevant at the moment. Nearest is answer five on your list Tricky.
Having completed the runs safely there will be two times for Al through the kilo and as the man is so important to LSR I feel sure even someone at the event could have noted the figures. Perhaps that person has never been on landracing.com to answer my question of eight years ago.
Who was on the clocks ........... DW should know?
Harsh but fair? :lol:
I didn't pluck my numbers out of the air. Reverse engineering the speeds you quoted from the timing slips gives an estimate of 5.2953 seconds for the first run and 5.6123 seconds for the return. Note that the times seem to require 4 places of decimals to make the sums work.
Averaging these times and converting to a speed in mph gives 410.161 mph.
"Rounding off" the times to 5.295 seconds and 5.612 seconds (i.e. applying the algorithm that the FIA currently use) gives 410.183 mph.
The question of 3 or 4 places of decimals surprised me because the official mile record requires calculation using times to 4 places of decimals. Using 3 decimal places would give 409.976 mph rather than the FIA figure of 409.978 mph. So if the FIA recalculate Al's km speed, will they use today's algorithm or the 1991 version? Perhaps David Tremayne can tell us??
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Probably not fair at all. Glenn knows the timekeeper (It was about post #13 in this thread). He also says the SCTA/BNI will have records.
I would expect for any British Isles located World records set in the last 25 years the times and speed calculations would be available.
The lack of a simple 3 decimal place answer suggests that the print out (or its computer) that I saw, was not operating to FIA regulations on the truncating at the 1/1000 (note this is not 'rounding') of the times taken to cross the mile or kilo. I did not suggest you were wrong on inaccurate in my earlier e mail, but 4 decimal places is not the FIA way so something is amiss.
So at the moment my thoughts remain that option 5 will prevail for historical interest, assuming Tom was then 1% faster. However as that requirement is no longer in the rule book of the FIA you may be correct Tricky that some other answer will emerge.
I do not think David Tremayne is on this forum - he may prove me wrong!
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I do not think David Tremayne is on this forum - he may prove me wrong!
Surely this forum is required reading for a member of the FIA LSRC!!
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Might be for those in the USA who are on the Commission to prevent some of the 'extravagant' claims. As most on this site do not wish to get involved with an International governing body then its not really going to happen. They (the FIA) have their own communication network and methods.
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I missed out a step when calculating the speed using the current FIA algorithm. :roll:
Taking the mean of the times (5.295 seconds and 5.612 seconds) gives an average time of 5.4535 seconds. This should then be truncated to 5.453 seconds.
Hence my (final) prediction is that Al's 1991 km speed of 425.050 mph will be changed to 410.221 mph in due course. Tom Burkland comfortably beat this (plus 1%) in 2008.
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The FIA has quietly corrected Al's speed to 410.221 mph and added Tom Burkland as the current class record holder at 416.561 mph for the kilometre with flying start.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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News Alert || "LandSpeed" Louise Ann Noeth
July 17, 2016, Bonneville Salt Flats
When Al Teague ripped across the Bonneville Salt Flats in September of 1991 he had no idea he’d be at the middle of a quarter century historical record problem. No one did.
When San Diego land speed racer Nolan White qualified on one of Teague’s records in 2002 he questioned Teague about 425 MPH kilo speed because he thought it didn’t add up.
Teague responded to White saying he was sure he attained 425MPH at least one-way. And that was the first time Al became aware there might be an issue, but being the consummate American hot rodder, he was only interested in speeds recorded in the flying mile. Flying kilometer speeds? Who cares?
White was killed while piloting his streamliner during a record attempt a month later, rendering the point moot once again, principally because at the time the FIA was spectacularly, glaringly out of touch with American land speed racers and Teague had no idea how to go about fixing the issue.
By 2008, when the Burkland family and friends bested Teague’s 1991 World Record the problem painfully reared up like a bad case of shingles when the FIA, having restored its integrity with American racers, denied the Burklands the kilometer portion of the record.
Tom, the ever-calculating engineer, together with mom Betty, and dad Gene, had worked out that clearly there was a mathematical problem with the kilometer record but none of the FIA officials directly involved with the process were still alive, throwing the correction process into a quandary.
It wasn’t until this year that remedial traction was regained. It all began at Teague’s kitchen table with wife Jane serving up some fine adult beverages after a nice swim out back.
Al was clearly troubled when he brought up the subject and asked if I might champion his request with the FIA: He would give back the kilometer record altogether as he did not feel it was right to deny another racer their due.
The idea had great merit. I approached Dennis Dean, President of the FIA Land Speed Record Commission with the request to re-examine the details of both records.
He agreed, and a couple months later I heard from LSR Commission member, and long-time USAC timer Dave Petrali, after he made a close examination of the paperwork regarding the Teague kilo speed situation. Most of it contained comparisons of the report speed and the speed shown on the “Timing Tape.”
He was unable, despite a protracted study, to determine how the difference occurred. And that point has never been determined.
However, Petrali told me, that the kilo speeds presented for the record and the speed printed on the timing tape left justifiable questions in many minds. Further, based on email and phone conversations with the involved parties, it became obvious that a solution was necessary.
“A great deal of credit must be given to Al Teague for his expressed opinion that he didn’t think he actually ran the 425 mph speed claimed by the record,” explained Petrali.
“That by itself provided the justification for correcting the speed using the two direction speeds shown on the tape.
Since the timing equipment displayed speeds rather than elapsed time for a given distance it was necessary to calculate the kilo ET’s from the two runs, average those times and calculate the speed for the kilo.
That procedure changed the 425.050 mph kilo record speed to 410.221 mph.”
To be clear, this did not invalidate Teague’s ‘Spirit of 76’ 409MPH World Record. He is still the shown as record holder from 1991 until Tom Burkland averaged plus 416MPH in 2008.
The FIA record listing shows both the 1991 Teague records and the current 2008 records held by Burkland.
In the end, Elwin “Al” Teague keeps the same mile speed record and gets a new kilo speed record. Tom Burkland keeps his mile speed record and is belatedly bestowed the kilo record. And the historical record will be correct when we are all dead 50 years.
Tom Burkland, as you might imagine, was quite pleased when Petrali called him with news of another World Record. OK, read that again. How many people will ever get a call like that?
“It’s a tribute to Al that he stepped up to fix the problem,” Burkland remarked to me by phone. “I hope we have the opportunity to race on our record if the Bonneville Salt Flats is restored to safe racing conditions.
Al is the king at Bonneville! Let no one ever think he might even consider cheating one of his competitors out of their efforts. One of the most enjoyable parts of the streamliner land speed racing environment during that period was the camaraderie between the teams, the willingness to share information developed that would help each other succeed (and in many cases prevent them from experiencing very dangerous consequences), and the absolute honesty, integrity, and character displayed by these teams. It is an honor for the Burkland team to have been involved with such gentlemen.”
Teague complied with the same rules that all record setters that came before him were subjected to, and never tried to inveigle special consideration, or gain an unfair advantage.
“The corrections made by the FIA to the world records has given me peace of mind than I am not cheating anyone out of their rightful record,” said Teague with a distinct relief in his voice. “It’s a struggle for all of us to get there. I’ve had no regrets. I’ve had my time and enjoyed all of it, me, and all my family and friends.”
In my opinion, if we had nobility in this nation, the guy would be at least a prince, if not an outright king as Mr. Burkland suggests.
OFFICIAL corrected FIA World Record Statistics
Tremendous thanks to the FIA Land Speed Record Commission members.
Category A | Group I | Class 11
1-Kilometer Flying Start | Bonneville USA
410.221 Speed-O-Motive Streamliner
Driver: Elwin Teague August 21, 1991
416.561 Burklands' 411 Tom, Gene & Betty Burkland Streamliner
Driver: Tom Burkland September 26, 2008
1-Mile Flying Start | Bonneville USA
409.978 Speed-O-Motive Streamliner
Driver: Elwin Teague August 21, 1991
415.896 Burklands' 411 Tom, Gene & Betty Burkland
Driver: Tom Burkland September 26, 2008.
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Having raised the question back at #11 in this thread it is difficult to know who to thank for making a correction after the passage of so many years.
Dennis Dean & Dave Petrali of the FIA Speed Records Commission have got the kilometre speed entry sorted on the FIA lists.
L.S. Louise Ann Noeth got the American's involved in correcting what appears to have been a USA 'claim' error. Many thanks to Pork Pie for raising the question with Al Teague and then allowing me to use his quote.
Finally we have two racers whom I have been fortunate to meet on the salt at Bonneville - Al Teague and Tom Burkland - who have both been correctly given their kilo (and mile) FIA record speeds and both proven to be gebuine, honest and fast speed record breakers.
[My final thought is that once the salt has been 'recovered' and good courses can be dragged, the target must be to raise the Category A - Group I - Class 11 records to 425 mph or even further!]
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[My final thought is that once the salt has been 'recovered' and good courses can be dragged, the target must be to raise the Category A - Group I - Class 11 records to 425 mph or even further!]
Mmmm. The A-I-11 records may already be 439.xxx mph! Bearing in mind that this is the 6-7 litre class. :evil: :-o :evil:
Tom Burkland's records are now in Category A - Group I - Class 13 (over 8 litre).
This is going to be soooo confusing. I hope the FIA update their list of current records before the Shootout. :-)
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I had forgotten all about the 'new' class divisions Tricky. :-o As you say, some of the FIA records will need re-allocating to the correct cubic capacities.
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Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions? The speed record listings on the FIA website just show the old ones.
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Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions? The speed record listings on the FIA website just show the old ones.
Here you go ...
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Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions?
Use the FIA website and then go to "Appendix D" - which is the section which contains the rules which govern International/World land speed records for all of their member countries, including the USA. :-o
http://www.fia.com/sports/fia-world-land-speed-records
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Thanks - got it. Now I know the new class breaks. Next question: is the FIA going to publish an updated records list, putting the old records properly into their new classes, will they allow the old records to stand until they're eclipsed, or what??
For Burkland's car, this is a no-brainer, since the two Donovan engines it uses are well in excess of 8000 cc's when combined. But what about the other record holders in the old classes 9, 10, and 11, e.g. Speed Demon, which had the records in 9 and 10? Did FIA retain data on their actual engine sizes? This information isn't part of the records listed on the website.
I believe Spirit of Rett (500" Chevy DRCE engine, I think) would now hold the record in A-II-13 at 414.316, even though it just barely exceeds the size limit for A-II-12. Accordingly Challenger 2 (with its two 500" engines) could set a new record in A-II-13 if Danny can average better than 414.316. Correct?
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As the engine capacity check is part of post attempt technical inspections, the 'size' of each car allocated an FIA record will be known. (The precise cc of Spirit of Rett will be known, but it is over 8000cc (was 11 now 13), although Charles does hold records with an engine between 5000 and 8000cc).
Fitting in either older records or checking the cc of cars which ran decades ago, may not be so easy. Of course for some of the 'new' intermediate capacity classes cars will not have been built to maximise the cc now allowed, so records may need to be established.
Danny has to go better than an average of 414.316 for the mile and 414.477mph for the kilo to gain two World records before the Challenger 2 is retired.
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To ulra clear about the kilo error on Teague's 1991 record runs:
There has never been an USA "claim" by anyone involved.
The FIA timed and told Teague his speeds. Most Americans back then could care less about kilo speeds, or metrics for that matter, all that mattered was the speed in the mile in miles-per-hour.
There is no implied, or direct denigration of kilo or metrics, it just didn't matter to Americans.
They also like their beer ice cold.
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Cold beer?? Sure, I'll have one. :cheers:
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I heard the reason the British drink warm beer is, that Lucas built refrigerators too.
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I heard the reason the British drink warm beer is, that Lucas built refrigerators too.
To funny :-P
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I found that their chilled beer is 58* F. :?
Rouse
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Going back to the current record holders, there is still no sign that the FIA is about to publish the list of revised records taking into account the "new" (for 2016) engine breaks. This may not matter for the vehicles on the list of current entries for the 2016 Shootout, but it would be good to have some clarity.
FWIW, I offer my best assessment of what the records should be. Definitely not official. Probably not all correct.
Driver Vehicle Engine size Class Km Mile
Rudolf Caracciola Mercedes Benz W25 3.992 litre A-I-9 197.347 mph 196.775 mph
George Poteet Speed Demon 4.9 litre A-I-10 363.847 mph 363.673 mph
George Poteet Speed Demon 6.03 litre A-I-11 439.562 mph 439.024 mph
Al Teague Spirit of 76 7.7 litre? A-I-12 406.321 mph 405.862 mph
Tom Burkland Burklands’ 411 14.8 litre A-I-13 416.561 mph 415.896 mph
?? ?? 3-4 litre A-II-9 ?? mph ?? mph
Mike Nish Nish Royal Purple 4.9 litre A-II-10 285.359 mph 285.306 mph
Richard Thomason Danny Boy 6.1 litre A-II-11 340.047 mph 340.364 mph
Charles Nearburg Spirit of Rett 7.9 litre A-II-12 366.590 mph 366.374 mph
Charles Nearburg Spirit of Rett 8.6 litre A-II-13 414.477 mph 414.316 mph
Class 9 is the most difficult to work out. There appear to have been very few records set with an engine size specifically in the 3-4 litre range.
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You left me out??????. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Thanks Dicky. :cry:
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You left me out??????. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Thanks Dicky. :cry:
Perhaps the FIA has lost your paperwork? :lol:
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You left me out??????. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Thanks Dicky. :cry:
Perhaps the FIA has lost your paperwork? :lol:
FIM lost mine...
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Trickey, you have been busy and I feel sure yours will be the best effort on sorting vehicles into capacity classes.
I do not know if all of the entries on Tricky's list are correct, but hopefully a check by US racers or historians will confirm if:-
in A.I.9 either the Herda-Knapp team in 1965 or the Hoffman Markley team in 1992 used a sub 4 litre capacity 'E' motor, or Poteet & Main used an over 3 litre 'F' Motor.
in A.II.9 the record may be 'open', although there is curious 'blank' entry for mile and kilo records in the FIA list at 231mph/229mph.
[It would be good to retain a European holder of just one of the ten records but I have a feeling the US racers may have taken A.I.9 as well].
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in A.II.9 the record may be 'open', although there is curious 'blank' entry for mile and kilo records in the FIA list at 231mph/229mph.
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I have a note that when these records were broken in 2010 (by Mike Nish), PorkPie attributed them to Hoffman-Markley, but that doesn't explain the blanks in the FIA list.
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I looked up "misnomer" -- I guess they used this thread as an example.
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I looked up "misnomer" -- I guess they used this thread as an example.
Well it all started with a general question on clearing up who were the fast guys (and girls) and then at #11 I took it to the particular clarification of a 425mph speed. Now that the FIA has sorted the Teague/Burkland speed records, there is still lack of clarity with the FIA record holders in the 'new' capacity classes.
So I believe the heading still stands and answers are needed for a couple of classes. I have suggested names based on those who have set SCTA/BNI records and have entries in the FIA A-I or A-II category and group.
Perhaps the misnomer extends to the few entries which talked about 'cold beer'?
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There's no misnomer about the cold beer I like best, I'm certain on that.
So any misnomer must be attributed to the confusing record keeping, or is that lack there of.
Rouse