Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => Website Suggestions => Topic started by: Richard Thomason on November 28, 2004, 05:28:00 PM
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New topic-maybe will stir some controversy, maybe not. What is so sacred about a 5-mile course. My 1978 rulebook defines the course as "I-5 The straitaway speed course, conditions permitting, will be an approach of two miles from the starting line to the four timing traps placed as follows: One trap timing the first quarter mile of the third mile, one trap timing the full third mile, one trap timing the full fourth mile, and one trap timing the full fifth mile. If and when conditions permit, cars which have previously qualified faster than 225 mph may be granted a longer course." The reason for bringing this up is the current idea that no SCTA record can be set on a course longer than 5 miles. 1978 rules allow a course longer than 5 miles, and I know that there have been records certified that were set on a course longer than 5 miles. Things change, and am looking for the time that the "Save the Salt" project will give us consistently longer courses. If available, I think we should use it.
rht
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I guess I should have added that only BNI Int'l records could be set on a course longer than 5 miles. It appears that no national records can be set on a course that exceeds 5 miles. Sorry about the misstatement on my part.
rht
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Like you I have seen times when salt permiting Al and Nolan and I think Don Vesco were allowed to start from the -1. So the 5 mile course is not sacered. Didn't they do that at the World Finals this year?. Still there needs to be some limit on how much salt is going to be dragged. How many patrols are going to be out. How far can the safety vechicals travel. Who is going to step up and pay for the other safety people farther on down? The patrols for another couple of miles? I know. The 'liner guys. I don't need them.
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The only time that the vehicles were allowed to run on extended courses were for FIA or BNI internal and BNI world records. This has not been done on normal SCTA-BNI normal records at the Speedweek events.
Glen
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Funny i though in 91 when Al went 409 he started from the -2..Along with some other cars around 4:30 in the afternoon..
Dave Dahlgren
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Dave
As I recall Al did not set a record at the meet but was allowed to make a pass to see what kind of speed he could achieve. It was not for a record attempt. As a courtisy Al was allowed to run after the meet was over.
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Glen,
I think there were others who were allowed to start at the -2 that year. Then there were some fast cars that asked to do the same and were denied. And that my friend is first hand information.
Jonathan
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To Rich Fox-as a "liner guy" thanks, I think we all have to work together. Don't know what you run but we are all trying to set records. Let's don't separate by types of cars, rather let's accomodate all.
rht
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I don't remember the exact year, however, the last time Guthrie drove our liner for a BNI only record we were allowed to start from the highway. Scott and I both have a video tape that shows Richard Thomason, Ken Walkey and our liner and as I recall Mike Cook with his Thunderbird didn't want to run that far and started at from a point a mile ahead of us. This was not for FIA or anything else but Speedweek records. The limitations of the 5 mile are based on the desire of the Board. Al's 409 average during Speedweek was recognized as a BNI and FIA record. The down run used all the salt that was available from the highway and the return run used 1/4 of a mile extra that was prepared prior to the meet for Dave Campos and the motorcycle streamliner. Al backed up onto the 1/4 mile narrow alignment used for the motorcycle and moved over to the parallel Speedweek course while under way. There is a long history of vehicles using all of the salt that is available when allowed.
I was with Nolan White at a Board meeting when a current Board member with considerable influence told him that BNI should not recognize any records set with a travel distance greater than 5 miles.
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Glen-sorry-there were several times that cars backed up to the -2 and ran for national records.I remember starting on the edge of the freeway, and blasting through the starting line and the Japanese motorhome crossing directly in front of me. I have audio tape of you screaming on the radio to get them out of there. Anyway, the point is that in the future, if the course is available, let's use it. This is not a drag race for a set distance, this is all out land speed racing. To Rich Fox again I say, why is 5 miles sacred. If it works for you great, if some one else can go faster in a longer distance then great again. When we sign up, and pay our money, do we say that it is for a set lenght of course? Trust me, faster cars, will have their own people down course, and be prepared for things. Don't think that the expense is greater, other than preparing the course. And if we are racing for only 5 miles, then let's say that rather then trying to promote ourselves as the ultimate land speed venue.
rht
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Jack-just got your post. Good on, you are exactly right.
rht
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It sounds like some will be racing for the Limited Speed Record.
My hero that year was the guy that drove the hard tired fork lift with the battery change for the panasonic liner 10 miles down course only to return everytime it didn't run.
I suspect it was their high tech, expensive traction control that caused it not to move.
I have never seen so much money spent on a Speedweek project.
I remember waiting by the highway for them to run from the 0 and the popular theory was that if the DC powered car was built on the other side of the world in Japan it might want to run backwards when it came over here.
I guess we will never know. We suggested a 4 speed knife switch would better suit their needs.
The "IRON MAN" Award goes to the fork lift guy.
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Hello all, I have some recollection of running the long course back in the day. I remember when my father got into the 2 club in 1975 the course was 9 miles on the old Hot Rod / International course. But it was no different than running on a 7 mile course now because the records had to be set in the same geographical mile. So their fastest mile would generally be between the 4 and the 5 mile. When they returned starting from the 9 mile they would run 9,8,7,6 and the record mile would be between the 5 and the 4. i.e. the same geographical mile. So regardless of the 9 miles it was still a 4 mile approach to the mile the records were set in. when the salt started to diminish the course was changed to 7 miles and records could be set in the same relative mile i.e. the 3 measured mile going down and the third measured mile coming back. So it is true that the course was longer but the approach is the same. FYI , back when they ran the 9 mile course, 2 runs would not get you a record it took 3. Your first run qualified you and you could work on the car all night if you wanted to but your qualifying pass had nothing to do with the record. The next morning you would run down get 1 hour to work on the car and then run back for an average. It was a lot tougher then I got my first record that way and I?m sure a lot of you remember those days.
Dallas
P.S. Jon the site looks great.
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My hero that year was the guy that drove the hard tired fork lift with the battery change for the panasonic liner 10 miles down course only to return everytime it didn't run.
I suspect it was their high tech, expensive traction control that caused it not to move.
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I think the guy standing on the extension cord that ran out to about 100' was the problem. I too award the 'Iron Man' award to the forklift driver.
They gave away all the batteries at the end of the
meet. Some guys took home a 1/2 dozen or more.
Dan
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The liner you are refering too was the Kenwood electric car. The car actually only went about 80 ft. It was real wet conditions when they arrived. It was a an electic bullet train motor. I remember they used a crane to get the car off the trailer. And left tons of batteries.
When the car returned to Japan the owner, was looked down on and dissapeared from existance there. The company went belly up. From speaking to other people from Japan, they said he was so far in debt from that project and it didn't do anything. They said he was way over his head from the project. I think they must have brought 40 people over for that project and it was a bust. Most stayed at the KOA as we did that year, 1992.
I was 16 years old that year, and I remember trading a pack of cigs for a pack of Japanese cigarettes. Got a little drunk with one of the engineers from the project and he drew a complete picture of the car on a napkin and I was so excited, wish I would have kept that, but I was too young to know beter.
There was an article in one of the programs about the car.
Jonathan
<small>[ November 29, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>
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Richard- I don't think 5 miles is sacred. As I posted I have seen cars run that were backed up an it was fine with me. I am pointing out that it causes more effort from the BNI people to run a longer course and that effort has to come from somewhere. Few people need or would benifit from another mile or two, so I think a user fee would be fair.---PS. Most of the time lately I have been running on a 1.3 mile course
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I agree with Scott.
We run in a very competitive class -- and almost always have an increase in our out-the-door speed over our five-mile speed. So we're led to believe that we could set a record by the time we get to Salt Lake City!
We can't standardize the course condition or the weather from year to year (oe even day to day), so having a set distance (if possible) tends to level the playing field somewhat and give each entry a fairer chance.
And the ideas of the added distance and having your own crew pull patrol on it seems simply not workable or safe.
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If some of these runs were on a -2 start in 1991 I was only there for Sat,sun and part of monday as I had to leave due to a family emergency. So I can't say if they did or not. Cagle was the Chief timer at that time and I was asst. timer and recorder. The run that Al Teague I refered to was after the meet was over and he wanted to see what it would do on a crappy course. He had tons of wheel spin on the run. I believe he ran 407 mph on the run.
Glen
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This is fun. One thing to think about when considering the extra time that "big numbers" cars require to do their thing. The average number of runs those cars make at a meet are around 5. This last year, we were at all 3 meets and only made 5 runs total, two of which were turn outs. The only point of this is that we paid the same amount as those that turned laps, and they were able to use the salt as the big "Dyno". My thoughts are that were are all in this together. Whether you make multiple runs or take more time for each run because of longer distances, or whatever, we all need to recognize that none of us can do this on our own. Back to course length, I feel that if the salt is there, let's use it. Unfortunately, conditions vary from year to year. Some years the salt is slick and slow, some years it is very hard and fast. Do we want to have separate records for differant times of the year? Trust me, when we can run in October, the salt is much faster. Most of us are in this for the long haul. That means many years. Things change from year to year. Salt changes, temparature changes, air density changes. Sometimes things are the luck of the draw. IF IT WERE EASY, EVERONE WOULD HAVE RECORDS. I guess what I am saying is that we should do anything and everything possible to set the highest speeds that can be done, based on the cars and bikes capabilities. I'm sorry if someone losses their record because salt conditions change. Step up to the plate and defend your record. The course length has previously been defined by salt conditions. I think we should keep it that way. We are about setting the fastest records possible. I think we should give all racers the greatest possibilties depending on their own vehicles.
rht
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Scott Guthrie-why be consistent. This is not drag racing on a quarter mile. This is about all out land speed records. The track conditions will change from year to year, the air conditions will also change. Why worry about course length. That will and should change as the salt changes. My personal opinion is that "OUR SANTIONING BODY"
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Sorry-hit the wrong key- to continue previous post I say- "OUR SANTIONING BODY" should do everything possible to provide the greatest opportunities to set the fastest records possible. Conditions change not only annualy, but also weekly. We can't control those things, but just give anyone who shows up the opportunity to go as fast as poissible.
rht
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Dallas-yes we remember the previous format of qualifing on one day, and then having to make two passes the next day. That was pretty tough. Those were the rules and we all abided by them. If you were a qualifier, it was great. If you had to sit around till noon to try and quailfy, maybe less than great. We have done both. I think that you are incorrect in your thoughts about previous long course data. When we backed up to the minus 2, we ran through the 4 mile, shut off, had five miles to stop, turn around and then ran back to the same 4 mile, giving us 6 miles each way. My point is that the total course was longer. Many records have been certified this way. I have no problem at all with this. This is land speed racing, not 5 mile drag racing. Let's use what is available.
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using the even playing field on course length and taking a record away is the same thing as saying I had a wet course and he had a good dry course, or he had good air and I had bad air.
I'm with Richard, if there is salt then lets use it for maximum capability. I want to see the fast guys go fast and not be limited by course length. One car Im sure could benefit from a longer course is the Herbert/Steen car, amoung many others.
I know conditions can change from day to day, hour to hour and Bub Meet shows that. Dennis had a 10 FULL MILE Course laid out and was run on during the BUB Motorcycle meet. Including a little extra both ways for extra shut down area.
This was 3 days apart from the WOS meet
Jonathan
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Here we go! At last a way to either get rid of so many records or create new ones -- 5.5 miles, 6.1 miles, etc. Would almost be like the motorcycles. Or we could just incorporate the El Mirage (and equally dumb idea of having separate Muroc records) into the Bonneville records. The hell with course length or condition or composition. Here's a real opportunity to streamline the Rule Book!
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Why don't they run 5 miles for scta-bni records and back up to the -1 or -2 for bni international records. The way they run the lineup with the pre stage you could stop at anytime and run the cars from the minus what ever. It is a lot easier now that all runs are in the same direction. There is no need for additional personal on the top end because everyone would still shutoff by the 5 mile marker. More people would be needed in the minus miles but that is still the lower speed area.
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Ed:
That's sorta like what they did at the Bub's event last September. One physical course, with a short course start line two miles up from the long course start. Most of the bikes ran the short course, but when there was someone waiting to use the long course they'd stop activity at the short start and run the long course vehicles. (Unfortunately it didn't work especially efficiently, but the theory was there - maybe the bugs'll get worked out for next time. Also, they had planned on two courses, but weather nixed one of 'em).
Anyway, a big hassle was that the short staging area was a hundred yards or so away from the course itself, and either the bikes would start engines and drive up to the course, making a left turn onto the course as they got to it -- or bikes would be staged right near the course, and when there was someone ready to use the long course, all short course stuff would have to be pulled back away to make sure the long course vehicle would have room in case an untoward incident occured and the long course vehicle went off-course.
In theory, workable; in practice, not perfect. How close to the course do you want to be (at the two, for instance, where the short staging area might be) when a long course vehicle gets sideways and heads towards you at the speed already accumulated by that point? Me? Unh, I'll stay back a few extra feet. . .
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I hate to admit it, but this year I spun out less than a quarter mile off the line with a 4500# car. I had absolutly no control once it started to go, so I dread the thought of other competitors being close to the course if you move the starting line back. "360 Bob"
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The procedure to allow the various approaches to a single course if that was all that was available has been done successfully in the past and included runs in both directions with no delays.
The key is that only one starter will release the entries as they are ready.
That gives the appropriate get ready time and prevents multiple runs in the same or different directions.
For example, if you have three starting areas running from the highway towards the mountain the single starter will release the short course vehicles first.
One of the things to do as soon as the short course vehicles begin to be released is to close off the staging lanes at the rear to limit any further entries in that lineup.
From the number of entries and the pace you can quickly estimate the time it would take and the available entries on the longer course will have suitable notice.
The short course vehicles will run and those that wish to make a return run will proceed directly to the equivalent starting area in the other direction, well off the course.
This will reduce the "Joy ride" problem that slows things up.
If you are in the pits when your segment is running and you wish to make the next available run you will take your vehicle to the appropriate staging area and assemble with those that have just completed runs and are waiting for returns.
Get in line, your competitore will help you with that.
When you have finished all the return runs on the course the starter moves to the next longer starting area. They know the estimated time that was given to them based on the pace and number of entries from the other area plus a couple of minutes for the starter to move. You repeat this method for each length of the course and the last one to run is the longest, and presumably FIA or FIM entries that have a time limit turn around.
When all of the vehicles have traveled down course and arrived at their respective staging areas you can begin the process for their return.
FIA with one hour and FIM with two hours can be run at any time because the staging areas are well clear of the course.
You would begin to run the short course vehicles going towards the highway first but you must be mindful of the return run schedule for the FIA/FIM entries.
You must fill the time available with running entries and additionally be able to clear the course for those with the turn around time frame. You must make the meet as efficient as possible and good communications will allow that with a good margin for safety.
Using this method for US National records will also spread the record holders into the certification impound area throughout the day and not jam them up after one records only session.
This will direct business to the impound area all day long and make most efficient use of the time.
An experienced starter is key to the pace, course availabilty and weather conditions that each entry is subject to and would have the final judgement before the entries are released to run.
It is impairative that he officials and the entrants be ready with no delays because you owe it to each other. :wink:
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Jack:
Important words in your statement -- words that differed from the Bub's meet:
"The key is...
"...release the entries as they are ready..."
"...release the short course vehicles first..."
Etc, etc, etc
"They (the starter) know..."
"...good communications..."
"An experienced starter is key..."
My earlier post was strictly limited to the experience at Bub's, and it was their first time running an event. I hope they read your post (as well as take to heart all of the advice they've received since that meet) and also use the experience they gained at the meet.
The way the event was run was NOT a good example (of how to run a single-course meet), but it WAS, we hope, a learning experience for them.
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As important as it is for the organizers to develop a smooth meet it is equally important for the entrants to make it as easy as possible by knowing what to expect and be ready on time.
If a starter waits an extra 5 minutes for the entry at the head of the line to get his act together every body on the salt is waiting also.
It's kind of like dead air on the radio.
If you reach the head of the line and your not ready the starter should go around you to keep things moving.
I guarantee if it happens to you you will quickly learn to avoid the problem because nothing is more precious than a run on the salt.
Lack of communication works in both directions.
Not only from official to official but entrant to entrant.
If you find yourself not ready towards the front of the line you can help accommadate the meet by waving someone past you.
You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event.
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Jack:
Important words in your statement -- words that differed from the Bub's meet:
"The key is...
"...release the entries as they are ready..."
"...release the short course vehicles first..."
Etc, etc, etc
"They (the starter) know..."
"...good communications..."
"An experienced starter is key..."
My earlier post was strictly limited to the experience at Bub's, and it was their first time running an event. I hope they read your post (as well as take to heart all of the advice they've received since that meet) and also use the experience they gained at the meet.
The way the event was run was NOT a good example (of how to run a single-course meet), but it WAS, we hope, a learning experience for them.
Eureka!
I found it !
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If you find yourself not ready towards the front of the line you can help accommodate the meet by waving someone past you.
You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event.
Wow, we have done this for years. I'll bet most of the racers at Bonneville have pushed past our lakester at one time or another.
And we have pushed past others when they asked. Most of the long time racers have this trait ingrained in their behavior, it would not be new, it is simple courtesy to your fellow racers. :wink:
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"You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event."
Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records! Real simple math tells us that if a record is in the 30 mph range the total time to run the two miles is approximately 4 minutes. Times that by two, equals 8 minutes for the two passes. Plus how many runs prior to the two record passes. Then to top it off the entry runs three miles instead of the needed two miles because they paid for it.
How about this theory - if a race track runs roughly parallel to an Interstate highway there should be no records slower than the posted speed limit. And - how come a Whizzer is a motorcycle? Isn't it basically an engine on a bicycle?
DW
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I saw Rick putting down the course I think Wednesday. It was the last run on course two and I thought it was good that Rick waited to be the last pass so that no one was held up.
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"You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event."
Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records! Real simple math tells us that if a record is in the 30 mph range the total time to run the two miles is approximately 4 minutes. Times that by two, equals 8 minutes for the two passes. Plus how many runs prior to the two record passes. Then to top it off the entry runs three miles instead of the needed two miles because they paid for it.
How about this theory - if a race track runs roughly parallel to an Interstate highway there should be no records slower than the posted speed limit. And - how come a Whizzer is a motorcycle? Isn't it basically an engine on a bicycle?
DW
I've wanted to say something like that for years! (Glad you did)
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Perhaps a graduated entry fee.
The faster you go, the less you have to pay because you are more important.
How about a pay as you go.
Your entry fee will be determined by the average of the time taken for you from the release of the track from the previous entry to the time you clear it for the next person.
A real time and motion study would be quite revealing.
Ya, datottadooit. :roll:
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Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records!
DW
With all due respect if you don't want 30 mph records maybe the SCTA should not have classes where that would be the norm. Any 50cc production vintage gas motorcycle would run in the 30-40 mph range. These classes have been in the books for some time now with open records. Now that someone finally steps up and pays their entry fee and sets a record at 30 plus mph they get criticised for taking too much of the association's precious time? :? These people did not create the rule book nor the distance required to set a record. They come to Bonneville to compete in a class that the SCTA created, and now are being criticized for doing so. :?
I always was under the impression that the minimums at Bonneville were dropped so the record books open classes could get filled. Besides if you look at the big picture it is not like there are 30 vehicles that are running 30mph. Time wise it all average's out. I thought Bonneville was supposed to be the experience no matter what type of vehicle you were running. I don't know about other states but in California it used to be that you could not take a motorcycle on the freeway that was under 150cc's and the speed limit was 65 mph.
Bottom line everyone pays their money and are entitled to run what ever class they chose in the rule book.
Tom G.
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with close to 1900 MC classes it will take centuries to fill the open records :evil: :?
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The number of classes on both sides causes the remainder of the field to be divided in importance by that ammount.
The reason for the dropping of the minimums at Bonneville had to do withthe maintaince of those minimums as the speeds for the classes went up.
A C-GAS what ever minimum was slower that the E-GAS record for example.
The big problem it presented was the credibility of the minimum was suspect and the SCTA was fighting with the 2 Club.
Minimums were originally intended to limit record attempts for back to back runs to those that were most likely to exceed the record speed with performance.
The obvious solution if SCTA was unwilling to keep up the minimums was to abandon them and let the 2 Club do their own thing.
I made the motion.
The minimums at El mirage have a whole other purpose and the number of classes that serve only the interest of those that wish to sneak by the system is full of abuses that cheapen the effort.
It is less and less a reward for performance as it is sandbagging against minimums in a class you created for yourself without adiquate oversight. :wink:
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Tom,
I'm surprised. It is not the SCTA's precious time it YOURS. The continuing complaining by the entrants on the wait in line and the responsibility of the organizers to speed up the meet is the subject of many posts.
I do understand your point about the 30 MPH records as you are an entrant of a motorcycle that tries to be the slowest record each year. What upsets me is the idea that maybe to achieve the "slowest record" goal the idea was passed around to leave the bike in first gear for the whole two miles.
We all know why the Bonneville minimums were dropped and who developed the many, many motorcycle classes to serve his own agenda. He has received a retirement plaque.
Dyno room, you're welcome.
DW
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It is never too late to retreat, but it is harder everyday, and borders on admitting defeat.
There was a requirement that 3 running vehicles of a unique type had to be up and running before a class was open for competition.
It deteriorated to only requiring 3 entry fees that made it a money game.
Then it deteriorated even more, and only required political pressure.
If you want to cut down on the "Cherry Picking" that gets you a wall hanger record, require that each motor class within a vehicle type require 3 real running entries to open it for competition the first time so there is some semblance of competition. :wink:
"The race to the hole in the records listing is about as valuable as winking at a girl in the dark, and gets all the respect it deserves." (me)
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Tom,
I do understand your point about the 30 MPH records as you are an entrant of a motorcycle that tries to be the slowest record each year. What upsets me is the idea that maybe to achieve the "slowest record" goal the idea was passed around to leave the bike in first gear for the whole two miles.
DW
Dan,
Sorry this reply took so long as I have not been around a computer.
You have fallen for the BS (keep it in first gear) that is put out there to mess with people's minds. Propaganda is what I call it and it has obviously worked.
Yes I am 25% owner of the White Goose Bar 50cc Vintage motorcycle that competed at Bonneville this year and set a record. We also set 3 records with the same bike (different names) last year at Bonneville. We have always run the bike as fast as it will go. We understand the long lines and the wait everyone endures and always run just the minimum amount of runs to set a record. This year at Speedweek we waited until Thursday before we even ran the bike. This year we had to run the stock carb for the class in which it was entered and has a venturi so tiny I am surprised it went as fast as it did.
Background: At a Sidewinders meeting two years ago there was a big discussion on why the Sidewinders being one of the biggest car clubs in the SCTA were consistently finishing in the bottom half of the club standings at El Mirage. We were told by the Club President the reason most people don't run cars or bikes in the club is because of the cost of racing. Four of us were sitting at a table and had just got the new rule book. One of us looked up the slowest open minimum for a motorcycle at El Mirage and it was 37mph for a 50cc P-PV at El Mirage. We all decided to go in as partners and find a bike that would be able to compete in this class. It took a while but we found a bike. Long story short the guy gave us the bike if we would enter it in his company name and would run it at Bonneville 2006. We did and got the bike for free. Total cost of setting 3 records at Bonneville in 2006 was about $1000 mostly entry money and converting the bike to meet the current rules.
We proved our point that it does not take a huge bank account to set records and that if someone really wants to do it they can. Everyone thought we were crazy so to mess with peoples minds we would tell them we were going after the World's Fastest-Slowest record. The word spread along with who knows how many rumors. Do I take these records seriously? No way. Do we have fun? Yes.
Bottom line, We looked in the rule book at the time and found a class we wanted to run. We set our goal. We accomplished our goal and are having fun. Sorry it takes so long to complete a run, but everything was done according to the rule book and the current classes listed in it. I feel we do not slow down the meet and are very considerate of the other participants. This year I though there would be a shorter coarse to run on but it did not materialize.
If there are people out there who do not like what we are doing I suggest you change the rules and retire our records. We are only guilty of reading the rule book and building a vehicle for a class that aready existed.
Tom G.
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Well, you can't argue with that.
I know an amateur car guy that took out a way way high dollar GM project for about $15k.
That is the "Hot Rodder" attitude that attempts to keep it as it began, and as it will survive into the future.
The proliferation of classes that everybody complains about and watches happen is still the largest divider of performance.
Real performance at what is considered by some to be slow, might just be really hard to beat.
Ask GM, Ford, Honda, Chrysler, and recently MV , with a number of others that all got beat by "Hot Rodders", even Curls. :wink:
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The proliferation of classes that everybody complains about and watches happen is still the largest divider of performance.
The real issue....
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A COMMON THOUGHT:
"Ahh, let him go, he only stole a few dollars and we can just print some more." :roll:
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The proliferation of classes that everybody complains about and watches happen is still the largest divider of performance.
The real issue....
Anyone have suggestions on how to fix this ?
Tom G.
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Go back to the 3 real iron entries requirement to open a class for competition.
List all you want, but race what is really real.
Unwind some of the ridiculous rules for the MC field that were done under the cover of darkness that are not only unsafe but look really bad in the face of the evolution of real materials and bikes.
One seemingly little change caused many many bike entries with existing, long standing records to the rendered illegal for the class they were listed but remain in the book.
The rulebook should be very difficult to change if it is right to start with and unlike some that float the rules to suit their own objectives, when you shill for entries, you cheapen the result.
They seem to have been forgotten but not gone.
It can be done in a snap.
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Ed:
That's sorta like what they did at the Bub's event last September. One physical course, with a short course start line two miles up from the long course start. Most of the bikes ran the short course, but when there was someone waiting to use the long course they'd stop activity at the short start and run the long course vehicles. (Unfortunately it didn't work especially efficiently, but the theory was there - maybe the bugs'll get worked out for next time. Also, they had planned on two courses, but weather nixed one of 'em).
Anyway, a big hassle was that the short staging area was a hundred yards or so away from the course itself, and either the bikes would start engines and drive up to the course, making a left turn onto the course as they got to it -- or bikes would be staged right near the course, and when there was someone ready to use the long course, all short course stuff would have to be pulled back away to make sure the long course vehicle would have room in case an untoward incident occured and the long course vehicle went off-course.
In theory, workable; in practice, not perfect. How close to the course do you want to be (at the two, for instance, where the short staging area might be) when a long course vehicle gets sideways and heads towards you at the speed already accumulated by that point? Me? Unh, I'll stay back a few extra feet. . .
So what have we learned here ?
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The procedure to allow the various approaches to a single course if that was all that was available has been done successfully in the past and included runs in both directions with no delays.
The key is that only one starter will release the entries as they are ready.
That gives the appropriate get ready time and prevents multiple runs in the same or different directions.
For example, if you have three starting areas running from the highway towards the mountain the single starter will release the short course vehicles first.
One of the things to do as soon as the short course vehicles begin to be released is to close off the staging lanes at the rear to limit any further entries in that lineup.
From the number of entries and the pace you can quickly estimate the time it would take and the available entries on the longer course will have suitable notice.
The short course vehicles will run and those that wish to make a return run will proceed directly to the equivalent starting area in the other direction, well off the course.
This will reduce the "Joy ride" problem that slows things up.
If you are in the pits when your segment is running and you wish to make the next available run you will take your vehicle to the appropriate staging area and assemble with those that have just completed runs and are waiting for returns.
Get in line, your competitore will help you with that.
When you have finished all the return runs on the course the starter moves to the next longer starting area. They know the estimated time that was given to them based on the pace and number of entries from the other area plus a couple of minutes for the starter to move. You repeat this method for each length of the course and the last one to run is the longest, and presumably FIA or FIM entries that have a time limit turn around.
When all of the vehicles have traveled down course and arrived at their respective staging areas you can begin the process for their return.
FIA with one hour and FIM with two hours can be run at any time because the staging areas are well clear of the course.
You would begin to run the short course vehicles going towards the highway first but you must be mindful of the return run schedule for the FIA/FIM entries.
You must fill the time available with running entries and additionally be able to clear the course for those with the turn around time frame. You must make the meet as efficient as possible and good communications will allow that with a good margin for safety.
Using this method for US National records will also spread the record holders into the certification impound area throughout the day and not jam them up after one records only session.
This will direct business to the impound area all day long and make most efficient use of the time.
An experienced starter is key to the pace, course availabilty and weather conditions that each entry is subject to and would have the final judgement before the entries are released to run.
It is impairative that he officials and the entrants be ready with no delays because you owe it to each other. :wink:
So what did I miss ?
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Jack:
Important words in your statement -- words that differed from the Bub's meet:
"The key is...
"...release the entries as they are ready..."
"...release the short course vehicles first..."
Etc, etc, etc
"They (the starter) know..."
"...good communications..."
"An experienced starter is key..."
My earlier post was strictly limited to the experience at Bub's, and it was their first time running an event. I hope they read your post (as well as take to heart all of the advice they've received since that meet) and also use the experience they gained at the meet.
The way the event was run was NOT a good example (of how to run a single-course meet), but it WAS, we hope, a learning experience for them.
SSS was at the first event and made some observations that were from the eyes of a first time entrant with both hopes and suggestions.