Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: A2WindTunnel on August 13, 2008, 04:03:03 PM
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The A2 WIND TUNNEL is now offering Speed Reports for Landspeed Racers.
See an example report compiled for Gary Eaker’s 1988 Firebird Trans Am that ran 296.150 in Bonneville (Run 1 Oct. 2 1989) from wind tunnel data of the car as tested (GM Wind Tunnel) and known information. The report calculated a 1 mile average of 303.47 mph (2% error in this case). Gary also noted there was a significant head wind that day, and the results should get you reasonably close.
http://a2wt.com/CARS_files/Bonneville%20Report%20Eaker.pdf (http://a2wt.com/CARS_files/Bonneville%20Report%20Eaker.pdf)
Info required for report:
Static weight of car
Front lbs
Rear lbs
Horsepower
At crank or wheel
Frontal Area:
Coefficient of Drag:
CD
Coefficient of Lift:
Front: CLF
Rear: CLR
Speed Report Cost:
$25 First time report: 3 Configurations
$10 Each additional Configuration
VISIT www.A2WT.com (http://www.A2WT.com) For more information about the A2 WIND TUNNEL
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Will you do the same for motorcycles??
Scott
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Here's the company's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/A2WindTunnel
Dave
http://www.roadsters.com/
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It should work just fine for motorcycles too.
Anyone interested should get in touch with me via dave@aerodynwindtunnel.com or 704.799.1001
Dave
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I have a simple question:
Are you going to post this in every section or just the two you have so far..?
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Wow, just trying to help you guys out and get this info in the 2 sections I felt would be most beneficial for you. I have never been on forums and don't know the etiquette, so I apologize to anyone I “offended”. I guess it's true what all my friends that do blog say... No matter what you post, there is always someone out to give you a hard time.
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John --
You got it wrong. They were just Public Service messages, not no-cost self-promoting.
Stan
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You mentioned Gary Eakers 88 Firebird, I have never seen or heard of any car going that fast back then. I thought Cook was the fastest in his T-Bird until Leggit and Lefevers stepped in. Do you have a picture of it because I would love see what I have missed. I hate not knowing or remembering that car. Thanks
P.S. Thanks for the topic sounds great.
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You mentioned Gary Eakers 88 Firebird, I have never seen or heard of any car going that fast back then. I thought Cook was the fastest in his T-Bird until Leggit and Lefevers stepped in. Do you have a picture of it because I would love see what I have missed. I hate not knowing or remembering that car. Thanks
P.S. Thanks for the topic sounds great.
Gary Eakers & Carl Stagermeyer (sp?) owned the car that was often refered to as the "Linginfelter Firebird". Gary worked at the GM wind tunnel back then and did indeed run 296 during a USFRA meet.
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You mentioned Gary Eakers 88 Firebird, I have never seen or heard of any car going that fast back then. I thought Cook was the fastest in his T-Bird until Leggit and Lefevers stepped in. Do you have a picture of it because I would love see what I have missed. I hate not knowing or remembering that car. Thanks
P.S. Thanks for the topic sounds great.
Gary Eakers & Carl Stagermeyer (sp?) owned the car that was often refered to as the "Linginfelter Firebird". Gary worked at the GM wind tunnel back then and did indeed run 296 during a USFRA meet.
Not much coverage back then and I guess I should have known. Thanks for the info. :-D
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Gary Eaker/Karl Staggemeier
This is the only one I found on the web. Gary I'm sure has more that I can try and get. I know it has been 3 colors.
All White
Maroon
Maroon front faded to silver rear
(http://www.lingenfelter.com/images/bonneville1_000.JPG)
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It sure is a nice looking and very fast car. Thanks for the picture, I have never seen it before. I have only been to one meet at Bville in Oct. the rest have been speedweek. I wish I could have seen it run. :-D
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You did miss Gary’s wild ride then. At 260mph the car became loose and went sidways, sucking the rear window out, sending Eaker nose up in the air while spinning and then back down on the wheels. I have a video (not very good quality) that I will try to put on our youtube.com page http://www.youtube.com/user/A2WindTunnel (http://www.youtube.com/user/A2WindTunnel) . I will let you know if I can get it up.
I will put up (3) .pdf files of the car in Pontiac Motorsports mag. I made them big (file size) in order for the people who are interested about reading the articles will be able to zoom in.
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Pontiac Winners Circle (Vol.4 NO.12)
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Pontiac Winners Circle (Vol.5 NO.9)
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There is an article about Gary and the car in the 1990 ( I think) Speedweek program (year either way I am not sure as am on way to speed week, not home where I have one)
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Dave thanks for the info.
terry
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A2,
DON'T WORRY ABOUT JOHN N. He's Mean to everyone even his Friend's :roll:!
I hope to be another one of Your Company's Success Stories,as I want to bring my Bike and I down there so bad it Hurts :mrgreen:!
I know the NHRA PSB V-rod's have spent a Ton of time in the Tunnel{not sure who's though :?} and it really shows!
I'm bringin a Knife to a Gun fight racing my Worlds Fastest HD V-rod :cry: so Aero is what I'm after :mrgreen:!
I was CAT 1 TT Champion and helped develop Scott aero bar's,Time Clipless pedals,and HED Disk wheels,and few Other speed parts!
So I make a Very good Test Pilot :wink:!
Hope to meet you All real soon,
Kaz..........
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I'm not too worried about John... I was giving him a hard time too.
I welcome you to call and speak with me about a test for your bike if you have some time, or you're more then welcome to stop in for a tour of our facility if you’re ever in the Mooresville area. Teams (NHRA and more) are finally learning the value of wind tunnel testing, and thanks to A2, it's not just for the big $$ of NASCAR and F1 anymore. It's like engine dyno's... years ago they were not used nearly as much and now you rarely a racer who has not been to the dyno. The wind tunnel is to your vehicles body as a dyno is to your engine. It is used to tune, validate, and quantify changes that are being made in order to optimize the performance.
That’s interesting that you raced TT and have worked with some manufactures that test in A2 from the bicycle side.
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I'm not too worried about John... I was giving him a hard time too.
I welcome you to call and speak with me about a test for your bike if you have some time, or you're more then welcome to stop in for a tour of our facility if you’re ever in the Mooresville area. Teams (NHRA and more) are finally learning the value of wind tunnel testing, and thanks to A2, it's not just for the big $$ of NASCAR and F1 anymore. It's like engine dyno's... years ago they were not used nearly as much and now you rarely a racer who has not been to the dyno. The wind tunnel is to your vehicles body as a dyno is to your engine. It is used to tune, validate, and quantify changes that are being made in order to optimize the performance.
That’s interesting that you raced TT and have worked with some manufactures that test in A2 from the bicycle side.
A2,
I also had the HIGHEST VO2 MAX ever recorded by Dr. Golding at UNLV with an average of {86.8 MLS/PER KG 198% above Normal 8-)! Now I'm into Mechanical Powered Bikes as I'm writing History with my Turbo V-rod or going Broke trying :wink:! I know the importance it's the time and money I'm Lacking :oops:.
Hope to talk with you soon,
Kaz...................
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I know there are many people that don't know their vehicle’s CD and would like to get a good baseline without spending hours in the wind tunnel. I am throwing around the idea of a 3 run package deal for first time customers, which will allow us to calculate where you stack up and get wind tunnel data without the 2 hour minimum that we currently have. This would also allow you to have an A2 speed report with all required data for our program. Take the guess work out of what your think your vehicle is and get a more accurate measure of what it really is.
3 Run Package: $250 First time customer
Run1: Baseline- as you race to have a comparison
Run2- Change1
Run3- Change2
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I know there are many people that don't know their vehicle’s CD and would like to get a good baseline without spending hours in the wind tunnel. I am throwing around the idea of a 3 run package deal for first time customers, which will allow us to calculate where you stack up and get wind tunnel data without the 2 hour minimum that we currently have. This would also allow you to have an A2 speed report with all required data for our program. Take the guess work out of what your think your vehicle is and get a more accurate measure of what it really is.
3 Run Package: $250 First time customer
Run1: Baseline- as you race to have a comparison
Run2- Change1
Run3- Change2
A2WindTunnel,
What about shipping [my motorcycle],and flying in? :?
Whats the closest Airport as the Fuel Cost and Time might be Cheaper/Easier then towwing all the way from Vegas :??
I'm VERY Interested I just don't have THE TRAVELING MONEY :oops:!
Or I would have already been there :-(.
What about referrals?Do you have any referral Deals? :|
Thanks,
Kaz............
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I know there are many people that don't know their vehicle’s CD and would like to get a good baseline without spending hours in the wind tunnel. I am throwing around the idea of a 3 run package deal for first time customers, which will allow us to calculate where you stack up and get wind tunnel data without the 2 hour minimum that we currently have. This would also allow you to have an A2 speed report with all required data for our program. Take the guess work out of what your think your vehicle is and get a more accurate measure of what it really is.
3 Run Package: $250 First time customer
Run1: Baseline- as you race to have a comparison
Run2- Change1
Run3- Change2
Is there a weight limit?
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Charlotte NC (CLT) is the closest airport and is about 30-40 mins south of the wind tunnel. Sometimes you can find deals at Greensboro, NC (GSO) which is about 1 hour north of the wind tunnel. I'm not sure what it would take to ship a motorcycle here, but that might not be a bad option for you to look into. A lot of cyclist ship their bikes and fly in for test. I know it is much easier to ship a bicycle, but you might be able to find a way to get it here for much less then you making the haul from NV. Or find several motorcycles to come out here with you and bring one trailer to split the travel costs. You can call me (Dave) with the referral question you have? 704.799.1001
Our balance has a 4200lbs weight limit. What is the weight of your vehicle?
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Current truck is 6000lb. Looking to downsize.
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I went on your site and saw your Diesel truck. I'm guessing that is what you are wondering about getting in? We have had full size trucks in the tunnel, but not quite that heavy http://www.trucktestdigest.com/PDFfiles/SEMATonneauStudy2007.pdf (http://www.trucktestdigest.com/PDFfiles/SEMATonneauStudy2007.pdf). Do you plan to lighten it up?
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Arrrggghhh...........
I got excited when I thought the title of this was "AZ Wind Tunnel"; then I saw it was "A2 Wind Tunnel".
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I know there are many people that don't know their vehicle’s CD and would like to get a good baseline without spending hours in the wind tunnel. I am throwing around the idea of a 3 run package deal for first time customers, which will allow us to calculate where you stack up and get wind tunnel data without the 2 hour minimum that we currently have. This would also allow you to have an A2 speed report with all required data for our program. Take the guess work out of what your think your vehicle is and get a more accurate measure of what it really is.
3 Run Package: $250 First time customer
Run1: Baseline- as you race to have a comparison
Run2- Change1
Run3- Change2
I would like to put in M2c here for anyone taking the trouble to go to a wind tunnel to do 3 to 5 other test points:
1 degree nose up
1 degree nose down
1 degree right (or left)
nose-up/right
nose-down/right
Measure side force and weight on wheels at each point.
Moment (normal force) data from these points vs. your CG may save your life. At Bonneville this year, at least two vehicles diverged from controlled "flight" and crashed due to aerodynamic instability in pitch and yaw. I am not a life-long LSR practitioner, however I do know aerodynamics. I saw an alarming number of aerodynamically unstable vehicles on the salt, and was even told of rules that led (unintentionally) in the direction of instability.
It is important to understand the interaction between vehicle mechanical and aerodynamic stability. We can have a marginally mechanically stable vehicle at low speed that is stable as aerodynamics take over at higher speed. We can also have a mechanically stable vehicle at low speed that is aerodynamically unstable and never know it until it hits the speed at which the aerodynamics overpower the mechanics. Then we have a problem and no time to solve it.
NOT a simple subject. At the risk of sounding arrogant, all LSR teams above 200 mph need to do more analysis and testing. By that, I mean real-live stability and control derivative math, and real tuft testing. Everyone I talked to thought they knew where the air was going on their cars. Not one knew: by my standards, anyone who tells me that their air is going more than 45 degrees off of the direction of the oil streaks needs to do some testing. The biggest names had no better idea than the smallest. Test, dammit.
Yarn tufts are the simplist test and will scare the pants off of most builders. That's why you should do it. With all due respect (and I DO respect them) to the highly experienced members of the LSR community both inside and outside of the governing bodies: qualifying a mechanically stable vehicle at a given speed is no guarantee that 10 mph more won't lead to an aerodynamic instability causing an uncontrolled departure (crash).
Analysis isn't a guarantee either. I would suggest that any vehicle with a CP ahead of its CG in yaw or pitch should not be allowed to run above 200 mph. This would be a more formal expansion of the ruling against "dustbin" fairings on bikes.
M<HO
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Charlotte NC (CLT) is the closest airport and is about 30-40 mins south of the wind tunnel. Sometimes you can find deals at Greensboro, NC (GSO) which is about 1 hour north of the wind tunnel. I'm not sure what it would take to ship a motorcycle here, but that might not be a bad option for you to look into. A lot of cyclist ship their bikes and fly in for test. I know it is much easier to ship a bicycle, but you might be able to find a way to get it here for much less then you making the haul from NV. Or find several motorcycles to come out here with you and bring one trailer to split the travel costs. You can call me (Dave) with the referral question you have? 704.799.1001
Our balance has a 4200lbs weight limit. What is the weight of your vehicle?
Dave,
Thank you for the info and I will be intouch :wink:!
We Might want to start a caravan Thread to see who all would be interested?
If I had the Money I'd be there Tommorrow :oops:!
I know {from personal experience}what an ASSET your information will be :-o.
Talk to ya soon,
Kaz....... :cheers:
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Blue;
Thanks for the post. Do you know of any affordable computer programs that can analyze airflow, even in 2-D?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Kaz (and everyone, for that matter): For shipping your bike (or anything) -- you might want to check out www.uship.com. It's sort of an eBay for shipping, in that carriers look there for loads that need to be moved, and then bid on them. You might get Mom and Dad that have sold the house and now drive a hotshot from coast to coast, or you might get a regular freight company looking to get some revenue on a backhaul that'd otherwise be empty. I've used them, and they offer door-to-door service. Pick the price and other arrangements that suit your need.
There are several trucking firms that move bikes specifically -- but they're often more expensive, being aimed at either the crowd that has more money than time to shop, or the crowd that has show/custom bikes and money isn't a big deal. Try Roadway, I think it is.
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kaz there is a wind tunnel much closer to you --ill find out about a price---im building a new bike and i would like some tunnel time probibly around april of 09 if you can wait until then maybe we could go together let me know willie buchta
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kaz there is a wind tunnel much closer to you --ill find out about a price---im building a new bike and i would like some tunnel time probibly around april of 09 if you can wait until then maybe we could go together let me know willie buchta
Willie,
You need "Race Car Aerodynamics: Designing for Speed" by Joseph Katz, ISBN 0-8376-0142-8 He has a whole chapter on wind tunnels and how to correct for ground effects.
The following is HIGHLY simplified explanation of wind tunnels. Sizing your tunnel should be based on about 2X your vehicle width and height. The bigger the better, but fans get expensive really quickly. Fans are available to move a given number of CFM at a very low airspeed, so it is common to use a 3 to 10X cross section increase and literally fill it with fans. For your application you may be able to get away with just one large HVAC fan. This would be great for you since they are belt driven, and you can change speeds by changing belts. More velocity than the motor will pull? Get a second motor and add another belt. It is best if the inlet of the tunnel is a bell mouth (like a velocity stack inlet) that is at least 4X of the tunnel test section area and about 2X as long as it is high or wide, whichever is greater. This gives the incoming air plenty of time to straighten out.
The big issue is the instrumentation. Objects in wind tunnels are normally mounted on a "sting" mounted to a "balance". Plenty of books on this, even Wikepedia may have a design. This takes up a lot of room and constitutes a large portion of the cost of a tunnel.
If you just want to look at smoke and tufts, it's a lot easier. One thing you might look into is mounting a large sheet of acrylic as your ground effect diverter so that you can crawl under and look up at the belly (put tufts there too). Lots of drag underneath these cars that no one ever looks at.
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Blue;
Thanks for the post. Do you know of any affordable computer programs that can analyze airflow, even in 2-D?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
There are many that are cheap and simple, unfortunately, they don't model separation very well (or at all) and hence are ridiculously inaccurate for LSR. I write my own for simple things. Good code with useful automated meshing and post processing (display of data) is expensive and pretty user hostile.
I was asked to find some cheap and simple standard by more than one person. I'm looking into it, I may have a solution later this year.
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Blue;
Thanks-- even a minimum program will be better than my intuition.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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FWIW, Texas A&M in College Station has a wind tunnel, and is located only 3 1/2 hours from where the Texas Mile is located.
http://lswt.tamu.edu/index.htm
I'm sure you've heard of this, but here it is:
http://www.texasmile.net/
Combining the trips might help expenses, especially for those in the Midwest or West Coast.
I hope this doesn't detract from A2WindTunnels help here, but I know for many that may not be a good option due to the travel involved.
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kaz there is a wind tunnel much closer to you --ill find out about a price---im building a new bike and i would like some tunnel time probibly around april of 09 if you can wait until then maybe we could go together let me know willie buchta
Willie,
I'm on :-D!
I Might try to get a head start if possible,but either way I'LL be your Swamper :cheers:
A good BASELINE would be my start .Then I'll put it to use{RACING IT}, and then return with you and compair the differences :-D!
A2 need any Test Rider's/Pilots? I'LL ride or race just about anything for the name of science :mrgreen:.
Talk to ya soon,
Kaz............
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Willie,
You need "Race Car Aerodynamics: Designing for Speed" by Joseph Katz, ISBN 0-8376-0142-8 He has a whole chapter on wind tunnels and how to correct for ground effects.
Blue --
You've got me dusting off my copy of Katz's book and wading through chapter 3. I'm not sure this is a good sign........
Ed Weldon
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I have a few vid's up of Eakers tail spin and a 300mph (unofficial run) with the firebird. The spin is in slow motion and the quality is very poor, but that is all Eaker had back in 1989. Notice the rear glass get sucked of the car and shot in the air. See on our youtube page…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T66EwAm3CwM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T66EwAm3CwM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYV0GiNDr6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYV0GiNDr6E)
Thanks for all the feed back on wind tunnel testing that is going on here from the members of landracing. I am happy that that the issue about wind tunnel testing is out, and that people know the importance of aero from performance & safety. I do not expect people to come all the way out to NC for a test, but A2 is offering the 3 run test at an extremely low cost, and hope that people will take advantage of this offer to help educate them selves about where there car is aerodynamically, and in which ways/areas there is room for improvement.
I had a test recently that I can loosely talk about. All information learned in A2 is the customers and not for us to discuss, but have permission to generally speak about this test. The customer (1st time) came in for a 3 hour test, and reduced the drag by 0.085 (counts CD), which at the speed he is running (220) equated to 130 HP. All while we were able to keep the same downforce balance (front to rear). That was 130 HP for under $1200. This is just one case, but shows that the cost of tunnel testing can be less then trying to put HP in your car. A wind tunnel is for your car the same as a dyno is for your engine. You can tune and optimize (within the rules) your cars body to reduce drag, correct aerodynamic handling issues etc…
Dave
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PS: The glass is the first to come off and is very very faint to see, but launches what seems to be at least 100'. There is a bigger piece that comes off second that just tumbles with the car.
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A2
Do you know why it spun? Tire spin or lift or? and what they did to correct problem.
Did they use nos to cool intercooler?
JL222
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For anyone interested, there are a few articles about aero that im sure most of you might have seen. For those who have not, here are a few that have good aero tips and talk about wind tunnel testing.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/113_0703_car_aerodynamics/index.html (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/113_0703_car_aerodynamics/index.html)
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/hdrp_0609_aero_tricks_tips/index.html (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/hdrp_0609_aero_tricks_tips/index.html)
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Great info, thanks. :-D
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And to answer the question you had. Gary said there were a few things that went wrong with the spin, and they had configured the car a little different from the previous speed runs a month or so earlier. (I will keep it short) The car was going to be on display at SEMA (1989) and Gary was asked to convert the firebird from an 88’ to an 89’ for the show, which was not much more then a different style rear wing. This new style wing had some 100 counts of rear downforce less (0.100) which added to make the car very unstable at high speeds. Since production cars are already aerodynamically unstable at those speeds, the new wing made it even worse from his last runs on the salt weeks before. He was also the only one on the salts that day, and from what I am told a very fine salt powder that settles on the salt which made traction more of an issue for the first run. With the downforce loss to the rear they had to weight the car heavily to the rear making the CG far back which made the car like a pendulum once the rear started fish tailing it was over in less then a second.
He did fix the car with a new hood and rear glass that was taken off a car at a local body shop, and ran the next day, but the engine blew getting into the 5 mile. To give you an idea of how fast he was going…by his tach and gearing it was running a calculated 307mph. When it blew going into the 5 mile Gary pushed in the clutch and coasted through the 5mi (on fire) at an average of 288mph.
And the Nitrous Oxide was to cool the inner cooler.