Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: dr j on May 23, 2008, 03:52:55 PM
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I was at the May Meet to make my 1st runs with my new project bike (MG-250-4 with Honda CRSF250-J). I had a great time and met a whole lot of great, friendly, enthusiastic people with some amazing projects of their own. I managed to up the current record slightly which of course was a thrill. In reviewing all the info and posts on this forum and the website updates (done in an insanely short period of time that made my head spin which is not safe from a musculoskeletal point of view but does happen in old movies) I finally figured out the ECTA points system. <I know Jon that it was a slight run-on flight of ideas kind of thing> My initial confusion was that some people seemingly were being awarded more than the expected 100 points for breaking a record plus the 2pts/1mph above the record bonus. I figured it was for running 2 classes but I did that too and the rulebook clearly states that only your highest single score for the meet is counted even if running other classes. Then I saw the math answer is that the high points are for getting a huge bonus because of open records being considered 0.00 mph. So if running an open class you get 2pts bonus for every mph you are going as they are all more than the 0.00. But if no run has ever been made in that class there is no record, not a record of 0.00. Doesn't it make more sense from a "what feels right" points reward to give whoever runs an open record the automatic 100 pts for setting a record, but no bonus since they haven't beaten anything? Yes, I know it makes it tougher for the excel spreadsheet calculation people to not have a 0.00 there. Just a thought from a newbies perspective. Sometimes we say things that have already been beat to death 2 years ago, but sometimes we say things that lots of people are thinking to themselves.
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Congradulations on running your bike so well the first time out. Looking forward to seeing you run again. The main thing is to go fast.And you do. Eric
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It seems like the system in place works fine, whether you set a record above a minimum or a standing record that is where the points should be counted from.
John
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The way to get to a points championship is to milk every record possible not by setting a record as high as possible so the next month you can come back and bump it and get more points. :-o
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SAND BAGING :roll:
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Scott, with a gazillion open records you just move to the next open record. "After a few years" is long after our grandkids are dead.
El Mirage points are based from a competitive minimum on an open class. That makes the playing field level. If you want an open record, damn it, then build something competitive.
The concept of bumping the record a few miles an hour to win a championship, and there are a bunch doing it at El Mirage, is fine if you want that #1 points position, and does require that you set a record every time for those golden 25 bonus points.
The real racers are the ones that have a record far above all of the other speeds in that displacement class.
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We used to not give points on open classes which resulted in Sand Bagging. The sandbagging was getting obnoxious & blatent and slowing the meet down so we went ahead the next year & started awarding on the 0 speed figuring some day all the classes would have records. Minimums are a decent alternative but so far nobody has volunteered to submit them. Even without the zero classes & minimums the points is still not entirely all it could be but some of the smartest people I know couldn't come up with the right formula/percentage to keep things fair between the 50cc vehicles & the 3000cc vehicles. I'm a pretty clever chickie if I don't say so myself so if someone can come up with a way to do points that seems fair I'll bet you I can program it. We've discussed points for years now & still haven't come up with the "ideal" solution. Feel free to work on it & submit your suggestions to the powers that be at the ECTA though. I wouldn't mind hearing some brainstorming here even. (as long as you don't make any extra work for me then tweaking the formula! ;) )
Many of us that aren't all together thrilled with the points system just don't pay any attention to it. At the ECTA it gets your vehicle on the shirt, the rulebook & the poster the next year and a nice plaque but that's it. (I'm pretty sure the top speed vehicles get on the poster too) It doesn't effect when or how we run so you can just disregard it if it's not what you're about. That all being said, I do have a lot of respect for those that do play the points game. It's a lot of hard work. I know because I once supported a team in the race & trust me, they ran my butt off! I swear I'll never do that again! If I place well in the points at any given time you can bet it's all about me just running (and probably running well) every meet! :-D
Deb
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So are the points given for the fastes speed of the meet ?Or the highest points of the meet?
I mean ,If I run in an open catagory and get 300 points for going 100 mph. Then change to a base class and run 200 mph where the record is 260.then I get 50 points .Witch run is counted toward the points?
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Points are calculated on every single run you make. The run that nets the most points is the one that is used.
Deb
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deb do you know the records for 500cc and 1000cc sidecar pushrod gas and fuel records thanks willie
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Willie:
Maybe it's suppertime in Deb and Todd's house -- maybe that's why she hasn't responded. I just went to the ECTA site and got this for you -- it looks like it's all of the ECTA sidecar records:
Vehicle Class Entry Rider Date Speed
350 CC Pushrod Records
870 SC/PG-350/4 Garth Hill Racing Garth Hill May-06 90.157
650 CC NON-Pushrod Records
SC/G-650/4 Siberian Speed Team A. Cheek Jun-01 102.506
650 CC Pushrod Records
SC/PG-650/4 Siberian Speed Team F. Cole Apr-01 100.897
SC/PF-650/4 Siberian Speed Team F. Cole Mar-02 100.671
SC/PBG-650/4 Siberian Speed Team G. Harris Apr-01 88.845
1000 CC Pushrod Records
1133 SC/PG-1000/4 Calaguiro Bros. Racing Christopher Calaguiro Apr-06 98.752
1350 CC NON-Pushrod Records
699 SC/G-1350/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer Jun-07 167.227
699 SC/F-1350/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer Apr-08 152.829
699 SC/BG-1350/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer Sep-07 139.803
1650 CC NON-Pushrod Records
699 SC/G-1650/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer May-07 158.000
699 SC/F-1650/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer May-08 157.950
2000 CC NON-Pushrod Records
699 SC/G-2000/4 Purpose Driven Racing Tom Schaefer Jun-07 161.252
© Copyright 2007 ECTA :: All Rights Reserved
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I guess I could have added that it appears there are a bunch of open records for the taking, Willie. Tom Schaefer is the only racer running a sidecar bike out there now. ECTA allows running in higher engine size classes, but only sidecars may run in sidecar classes. When you're ready to pack up and head east with a bike or two -- let us know and we'll help with travel plans for you two. The records are there for the taking, especially with your 500cc bike.
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thanks jon i dont think we will make it there this year --we are on a strict budget this year and with the price of gas and entry fees going up we will just make 6 races at el mirage and speedweek --we have 2 bikes this year so all of the entry fees are double--you know -- see you on the salt though willie buchta
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Points are calculated on every single run you make. The run that nets the most points is the one that is used.
Deb
Thank you for cleering that up. I still don't know what to do . But I understand it all better.
Thanks and Congradulations on the 202
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Slim,all those great ECTA sidecar records are with a passenger in the sidecar..........right?????
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A passenger? How about dozens if not hundreds? If you have to ask -- it's obvious you've never been to Maxton to partake of the bugs.
Well, they're not that bad, really, except for the fire ants that enjoy crawling into your leathers and helmet if you're forgetful enough to leave them on the grass. And there are some flying little gnats or something -- but it's not too bad, really. Clean your windscreen every few runs and that's about it. Except for that bird that Rich Yancy hit at 200+++ a couple of years back. I guess his shoulder hurt for months.
As for human passengers -- unh, mmm, no, nobody rides monkey at Maxton, nobody has ridden monkey, likely nobody will ride monkey in the foreseeable future.
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bob very nice to meet you at el mirage hope to see you again soon --the e c t a has the same rules as s c t a with a few exceptions --they also have a great website www.ecta-lsr.com willie buchta
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O.K. I get it more "wheel on a stick" records.......
Oh, well, ........................................................................
P.S. My wife Linda saw the E-Mail and she takes exception to the term "monkey"..........Linda being a sidecar passenger for approx. 35 years in both
roadracing here in the U.S.A. and in Europe and LSR.............the term is "sidecar passenger" or as they sometime say in Europe "co-rider"..............
Sooner or later you people hopefully will learn what sidecars are all about...............I don't give up.
LOVE
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..............As for human passengers -- unh, mmm, no, nobody rides monkey at Maxton, nobody has ridden monkey, likely nobody will ride monkey in the foreseeable future.....
........P.S. My wife Linda saw the E-Mail and she takes exception to the term "monkey"..........Linda being a sidecar passenger for approx. 35 years in both
roadracing here in the U.S.A. and in Europe and LSR............
Jon, I think a dozen red roses might be in order :lol:,
Sum
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Thanks.....but no thanks.........no roses....we both have allergies.................................................................
But after all.......... it is the thought that counts....
Oh, I forgot to mention.....down under in the land of Oz.... a sidecar passenger is also at times call a "swinger"......don't you just love it..............
P.S. Willie< saw your sidecars a El Mirage...they look great.....best of luck this year....and get those points..................................................................
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Linda, I apologize if I offended you, but I know the the term "monkey" is used and has been used for quite a few years as the term referring to the sidecar passenger on a hack. I've just taken a quick look around Google to make sure I'm correct -- and found quite a few references in "Hack'd" the magazine for and about sidecarists (as they proclaim).
So I'll try to remember to not use the term -- but you may be fighting an uphill battle to get the word completely out of the lexicon.
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Hey, Jon....no problem.....we were only kidding...
we don't really care what they call us...................
as long as all racing sidecars use a monkey,
co-driver, swinger = passenger.............................
After all that is what a sidecar is all about
(in our way of thinking) otherwise it is a solo-bike with a training wheel.......like for a 4 year old
when he is learning to ride a push-bike...........
Boy, that should offend all you LSR "sidecar"
racers........it kinds of offend me come to think of it......I had to race a "Wheel on a stick" with BNI from 1987 to 2002............But thanks to the BUB
Trials we can now race our outfit like a a real
sidecar...............End of this Sermon.........................
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bob willie here--would you please do me a big favor---you saw my sidecar bikes at el mirage what would i have to do to go from a "wheel on a stick" to a "real sidecar" thank you willie buchta
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Willie, weld up some hand-holds.........put in a passenger.........and go.....................................
With the platform size you have at the present time the passenger would have to ride in a kneeling position..............with a longer platform
the passenger could ride in a prone position......
But as we all know, passengers are only allowed
at the BUB..........SO for the BUB you would also need a fender to cover the top of the sidecar wheel. However, per AMA/FIM one can also run a sidecar without a passenger but you would have to carry a minimum of 60kg (132lbsUS)
ballast (weight) The "weight is also required for sidecar streamlners as most if not all are not built with a passenger in mind.
Sorry, we kind of high-jacked the ECTA point
questions.....................................................................
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Willie, weld up some hand-holds.........put in a passenger.........and go.....................................
With the platform size you have at the present time the passenger would have to ride in a kneeling position..............with a longer platform
the passenger could ride in a prone position......
But as we all know, passengers are only allowed
at the BUB..........SO for the BUB you would also need a fender to cover the top of the sidecar wheel. However, per AMA/FIM one can also run a sidecar without a passenger but you would have to carry a minimum of 60kg (132lbsUS)
ballast (weight) The "weight is also required for sidecar streamlners as most if not all are not built with a passenger in mind.
Sorry, we kind of high-jacked the ECTA point
questions.....................................................................
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Bob,
Just a quick question or two on your sidecar rig, since mine is Hayabusa powered with a turbo and ran 216, 212 and 209+mph at El Mirage, how fast do you think it would go on that long salt with a passenger?
Also what engine and combo were you running when you ran that 155 at the bubs meet?
J
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bob i just did the math --my fastest pass was 141.296 mph (thats 227.486 kp /h ) with the 1000cc pushrod sidecar --the math tells me if i added 132 lbs. not counting aero--- i will still run 140.40 mph so whats the big deal with weight ---no other lsr vehicle that i know of can carry a passenger or has to weigh a mininum so why pick on the sidecar guys--in scta the sidecar has to support the weight of a forward faceing kneeling 175 lb passenger totaly stupid--i just wonder what the car guys would say if they had to accomedate a passenger in a roadster and 3 passengers in a sedan --i dont think they would stand for something that stupid i just dont know why the bike guys do --maybe there is a sound reason for it but i cant figer out what it is ---and how about that stupid wheel cover the one that moves you half way across the track in a small side gust of wind -- stupid --stupid --when i cant even run a solid rim on the sidecar or the front --well i finally got that off my chest willie buchta
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The side car passenger was removed because of insurance many years ago.
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Here we go!
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What does MC sidecar stuff have to do with ECTA points?
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If one was interested in gaining as many ECTA points as possible one should consider running a sidecar -- there are many "open" records available, and running on open records garners more points than besting an existing record.
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Slim, I am on the Isle of Man for the TT
You should see the 600cc sidecars. :-o I will take pictures and bring them in June
I don't think the sidecar class under 1000 cc are used up yet and these thing are smooth and as fast as
a bullet. You get inside so they fall into the streemline catagory then with the fairing off they can run naked I am awstruck at the speeds of there things.
Eric
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the wheels don't line up and that is no good for a stream liner. I wounder what I should do with the money I saved on shipping and buying a sidecar rig. :-D