Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => NON LSR Posting => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 12, 2008, 03:09:56 PM
-
Okay - here's a question for you, preceded by my experience just now:
I've got a '61 Ford with 390 V-8 in storage here (we store vehicles for folks), and the battery was absolutely stone dead when I tried to move the car last week. So I charged the battery with the 2-amp charger for about 5 days, so it's as fully charged as it's going to get. So just now I put the battery in and noticed that the RED cable goes from battery post to the block, and the BLACK cable goes from battery post to the solenoid. The connectors on the cables are sized so that the red one fits on the negative terminal, the black on on the positive. So far okay, although "different".
So I got things all hooked up and got into the seat to try to start it -- and saw smoke! It was coming from the brake light switch on the fluid reservoir, so I unplugged first one wire, then both, to stop the smoke and remove that as a possible reason why the battery was so dead.
So -- back to my question: Does anybody know that this car model was a POSITIVE ground system? I sure don't remember it that way -- but the colors and the smoke have me wondering. Comments, please.
-
All "early"Fords were positive ground. I have a 59 1 ton and I am pretty sure it is pos. ground,not sure I havent looked at it in years.
-
Jon, are you sure the battery wasn't rotated and you hooked it up wrong. I thought all of them were neg. ground
-
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%2520diagrams/Ford/MWire5765-206.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tocmp.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%2520diagrams/fordindex.htm&h=1637&w=1251&sz=371&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=5qOwMprWdym6bM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3D61%2Bford%2Bwiring%2Bdiagram%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den
This should help, it is the 61 Dorf wiring.... shows Neg ground system. Old electrical adage.... When in doubt, break out a wiring diagram and a meter...
-
Negitive Ground!
-
"Negative" not Negitive!!! da
-
Jon,
Years ago my dad told me that he had seen a failed battery reverse its polarity internaly when recharged,
probably not the case, but another possibility.
Don [no longer a newbie] Jxn
-
Another possibility, First don't over think it. You probably have the batt hooked up ok. As you described, the main neg cable goes to the block. It probably doesn't have a good chassis ground and its trying to ground through the brake light switch. Just some ideas to look at.
-
Jon,
Did you check the voltage? If the charger does not have auto off, maybe 5 days at 2 amps over charged it.
Don
-
Let's see. First Don: I doubt that the charger would overcharge -- it's a bike battery charger that I've left on for days on other batteries over the years. The current drops as the voltage in the battery comes up -- drops to a mere trickle after a while.
Thunder: Well, I didn't look for corrosion on the cable end where it bolts to the block, and I suppose the various places where the block mounts and is connected electrically (braided line or something) might be bad. Fortunately it's not my vehicle.
Back to Don: Hunh? There's one I haven't heard before.
I am sure I hooked it up the way I think it should be -- that is, I did pay attention to the + and - signs embossed on the top of the battery, and also to the relative diameters of the posts (negative is small, positive is big), and even to the fact that the cables naturally went to the place where the posts are. If I had got the rotation of the battery backwards the cables wouldn't have fit right (although they would fit, just not quite as easily).
Anyway, I'll check tomorrow to see if the battery has dropped voltage overnight. It's still wired in, but the brake switch is disconnected. We'll see. I'm pretty sure it's a negative ground, just like most of you have said -- and I didn't open that link to Google yet, but maybe that'll be the definitive thing since I don't have any '61 Ford literature or manuals.
Thanks one and all.
-
Hey There, :-D
The 1961 Ford is for sure a negative ground unit. I think that Ford switched over from their positive ground stuff in about 1956 or 1957.
The greatest likelihood of a problem is the relationship of the external solenoid connection and a poor ground for the engine to the chassis/body. When the brakelight switch smoked it was trying to carry current that the ground side of the starter circuit was not doing.
The starter switch is connected to the chassis and if not grounded properly so the trip is complete back to the starter circuit (with heavy enough cable to carry the high amp requirement) then the smoke leaks out. :-o
Hope that helps. BTW - Thanks for stepping up and buying the site, too. :-D
Regards,
HB2 :-)
-
When the brakelight switch smoked it was trying to carry current that the ground side of the starter circuit was not doing.
HB2 :-)
Harold is absolutely right about checking for faulty grounds, especially on a car that's sat in storage, but I think we might be putting the cart before the horse.
I'd hazard a guess that the car's sat a while, it's now spring, humidity is going up, you probably stepped on the brake pedal, knocking some corrosion loose in the switch, which caused your short.
I doubt if it had anything to do with the ignition - Keep in mind, brake lights go on even if the ignition is off.
Was it while you were cranking the engine or with the ignition on, that the brake wire smoked? Did cranking the engine facilitate the short? Did turning on the ignition cause the short? I doubt it.
First off, if the engine turned over, you have the battery hooked up right - it's DC current, and if the current was flowing in the wrong direction, the best you could hope for would be a starter motor turning backwards, which would not engage the Bendix drive on a Ford.
Secondly, those old fruit jars tend to get corroded pretty easily - and brake fluid is among the most caustic chemicals used in a car. I've owned a 62 T'Bird, a 66 Cyclone, a 65 Galaxy and a 66 F100, all with the same type of master cylinder, and I had to replace the switch on all of them.
If you are like me, you might have gotten in the car and hit the brakes while settling in. If the switch was compromised, ie, at one time got some brake fluid in it during servicing, was damaged and/or corroded - not unusual for an old Ford (or take it from me, anything British), this action might well have shorted out the switch internally and started smoking the wire. It would take a few seconds for the wire to start to smoke, which would coincide with your efforts to crank the engine. I suspect the two events are unrelated.
I'd check to see if the brake lights are working - you should be able to simply short the two switch connectors together through a 10 amp fuse to see if the brake light circuit is good. Do this through a fuse, because if there is a short in the brake circuit, you don't want to have to pull a new wire through the Galaxy unless absolutely necessary, which is what you'll be stuck doing if it burns through. If the lights work, then your switch is probably faulty. Make sure you haven't already burned the fuse in the fusebox.
Chris
-
SSS, not trying to be a smart a__, but I think your main problem is this thing has 4 wheels instead of the usual 2 wheels that you are used to. Cya
-
SSS. The color of the cable should never have been a factor. Many aftermarket cables are red. Many are black. People replace them at different times and from different places. IE: Pep boys, Kraegen , etc. As I remember it none of the 12 volt Fords were positive ground and 1955 was the last 6 volt.
-
JD:
You're right about the color of the cable, and while it did surprise me -- I didn't let it be a controlling factor in my attempt to start the car. I did follow it and see it connected to the block - at the same time I noticed that it had originally been hooked to the negative post on the battery. I know it's a convention to hve red be positive and black be negative, but I've played with wires for long enough to know that the color isn't necessarily indicative of what that wire is doing - even when it is supposed to be!
I mentioned the colors to show the hassle -- and also, I guess, to point out just what you've said -- that what we expect to find isn't what we do find. Since I got the car to start I knew I had (eventually) got it right, and maybe someone else would learn from the situation that was presented to me.
But the car is back in the storage bafn now, brake wiring disconnected, and everything is all covered up and awaiting the owner to come fetch it.