Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: doug odom on April 27, 2008, 04:10:45 PM
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Anyone have any experience installing a FWD ( sideways) motor to a inline configuration?
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Anyone have any experience installing a FWD ( sideways) motor to a inline configuration?
I haven't, but seem to think it has been done by some of the street rod guys, but don't know where to send you,
Sum
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If the motor was never offered in a rwd model from the factory, a custom bellhousing and/or adapter will have to be used. Try these guys:http://quad4rods.com/ (http://quad4rods.com/) What motor are you considering. Also, http://www.kennedyeng.com/ (http://www.kennedyeng.com/) makes various adapters and custom clutch discs, which may help.
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Making the engine work is far more obvious and straightforward than from the bellhousing back.
What car, what motor?
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If the motor was never offered in a rwd model from the factory, a custom bellhousing and/or adapter will have to be used. Try these guys:http://quad4rods.com/ (http://quad4rods.com/) What motor are you considering. Also, http://www.kennedyeng.com/ (http://www.kennedyeng.com/) makes various adapters and custom clutch discs, which may help.
+ one on Kennedy. If they don't make it, they most likely will do so on request.
I would post the motor and trans choice you are considering, as there are many who have "been there done that" on this.
I've seen several GM Ecotech engines in RWD cars, so I'm guessing that is an "off the shelf" solution
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If the motor was never offered in a rwd model from the factory, a custom bellhousing and/or adapter will have to be used. Try these guys:http://quad4rods.com/ (http://quad4rods.com/) What motor are you considering. Also, http://www.kennedyeng.com/ (http://www.kennedyeng.com/) makes various adapters and custom clutch discs, which may help.
+ one on Kennedy. If they don't make it, they most likely will do so on request.
I would post the motor and trans choice you are considering, as there are many who have "been there done that" on this.
I've seen several GM Ecotech engines in RWD cars, so I'm guessing that is an "off the shelf" solution
The Ecotech became a real easy rwd option over the last 2-3 yrs. as both the Solstice/Sky are Eco w/rwd.
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Sorry, Its a Nissan V6 VQ30DE to a Liberty trans with a Chevy 23 spline input shaft. They put that motor in the 350Z rwd but the bellhousing is part of the transmission like most imports. I'm making a pattern of the back of the motor and think I will have to use up an old Lakewood and weld the adapter to it.
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Couldn't you run a mid plate at the back of the motor and bolt any bell housing to it? Thats what I did for my Jimmy to run a Liberty box. If you are worried about the impute shaft Liberty can make you one in any length and spline you want or might even have one off the shelf.
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When I put the 30E in Jacks streamliner I used a SBC Lakewood blowshield. I set the block on end on my mill and maped the hole locations from the rear main centerline. Then I set up the Blow shield on bearing retainer hole and drilled it. As i remember all the holes worked out. Maybe I drilled the block plate. I should have the hole locations around here some where. Don't know if your block is the same as mine. Want some 30Es? RF
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Probably no help for what you are doing but I have a VW 1.6 turbo diesel in my Suzuki Samurai. Acmeadapters make a conversion kit to install most any VW gas or diesel onto a Samurai or Tracker/Kick transmission. It is a bolt in no welding swap.
Jim
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PS The first motor came from a Z car. The second one came from Maxima which I think is a sidewinder FWD car. Seemed to be pretty much the same for what I wanted.
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When Dan Wagner and I put together the 797 car, we put a 1/4" steel plate on the back of the engine, cut 3/4" thick blocks (threaded) that were bolted to the bellhousing, stood the engine on it's nose, and lowered the trans/input shaft into the pilot bearing. The MIG welder stuck the blocks to the plate, and the trans would bolt on/off.
Why did it work?....because the Getrag had a little less than an inch of shaft sticking out! With that in mind, here's one tranny setup that will work:
The Tacoma V6 5 speed (1995-2003) has a reasonable 4-5 gear spread. The 4Runner/Truck 5 speed (1988-1994) has the same basic trans, but the input shaft and bell housing are 1 1/8" shorter. That means you can use the "short" early V6 bell housing on the Taco V6 trans and have 1 1/8" of shaft sticking out. That is 3 sheets of 3/8" aluminum or steel...one sheet to bolt to the engine, one to the bell housing, and one to connect the two together. You've just adapted a 5-speed to whatever you want....with a bandsaw and a drill press.
It also moves the clutch release fork to the right side of the bell housing, which really helps the tight cockpit in a roadster or whatever.
If you need a bigger Overdrive (20%), use the Supra Turbo 5-speed (1986-1992). It takes the early truck V6 housing, and has the same input shaft length as the Tacoma V6. The pic below shows the Supra trans with the early V6 bell housing (for mounting to the V6). I made the spacers to get a bell housing with clutch fork on the right side (we put a supercharged Taco V6 in a 1978 Corolla).
Clutch disc for these trannies are available from several suppliers, with "grippy" stuff to take the power. On the dragstrip, these transmissions would go most of a season at the 500 HP level, in 3000 lb vehicles on slicks.....probably good enough. Pretty cheap part in the junkyards, these days.
I don't know of other transmissions with bolt on bell housings (in different lengths), but maybe someone else has an idea.
Regards, JimL
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Just to clarify....about the pic. If you take the 3 pieces of aluminum out, the bell housing fits to the case, and 1 1/8" is now sticking past the bell housing. Sometimes I don't make sense....and most of the times I don't make cents!
The rest of the times is just a blur.
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Jim that is some good stuff there. Is 1 1/8 inches what you normally need sticking out to make things work?
Harv has adapted a Mazda 2200 transmission to a 1.9 Saturn engine.....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/harvey/trans-adapt-1.jpg)
........... the rest is here..........
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/harvey/construction%20page-6.html
.......... and here........
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/harvey/construction%20page-7.html
c ya,
Sum
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Just becasue it give me a chance to show some picture of my car, I put a Ford Zetec from an Escort fwd car into my 28 roadster and used a Ford/BW T-5 tranny. Got the bell housing from Quad 4 rods in Denver. Even with this "ready to use" bell housing I did alot of fitting and changing. It is most important to make sure that when the tranny is bolted to the motor that the pilot end of the input shaft is the right depth into the bearing and that there is plenty of room for the throw out set up and that it is a straight fit into the pilot bearing.
I have built a couple of adaptors before and obviously the most important things are alignment between the throw out bearing and the tranny and that the surface that mounts to the engine and the surface that mounts to the tranny are parallel.
Rex
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Regarding the 1 1/8" on that trans setup. That is just what the "short" bell housing gives you. It just conveniently matches 3 pieces of 3/8" plate. The center plate has holes for the bolt heads (bolts point backwards on the trans-side plate, forwards on the engine-side plate). The bolt heads can't be over 3/8" tall (I've had good luck with ground down hex or Allen bolts). Leave "ears" sticking out around the bell housing, enough to bolt the three plates together as one, when the trans mates to the engine. Depending on your pattern, you may have to rotate the trans slightly off vertical to get enough bolts working (just bend the shifter in a press....it'll still work).
You may need to hit the bearing store to get a pilot bearing that fits your crank and the R150 input shaft end. I used a rear bearing from an old alternator, that just happened to fit.
You can put your starter bolt threads into the engine side plate, or the center plate, BUT DON"T DO BOTH! The bolts will bind. Carve out of the trans plate/bell housing as necessary for the nose of the starter.
Important step: You MUST take the FWD flywheel and clamp it on a stool. Then go around the teeth (on your new "starter side" with your right angle grinder and a fresh "flap sand disk" (about 120....don't use the coarse grit or the bendix teeth can hang). You will be making a "ramp" or slope for the bendix to clear as it approaches the square face on the back of each flywheel tooth.
The FWD flywheel has the "relief tooth slope" on the wrong sides of the teeth. It won't matter, because you'll probably be driving from the other side of the gear (no you CANNOT just flip the gear...the slope's on the wrong side of the tooth...I tried it...like a dummy).
This cut is NOT critical...you are just giving the bendix teeth enough room to start walking into the flywheel teeth. After grinding the slope, take a round bastard file and file the bottom groove of every tooth on the flywheel. The gears are stamped and the teeth will be too tight on the old "back side" when your starter is engaged (to what is now the new "front side"). It will engage, but it won't disengage if you don't do this. Again...it is not critical accuracy and doesn't take very long. I did this whole process in about 45 minutes on Richard Reed's V4F/SR last August, when we discovered we couldn't actually start the engine!
If your design requires the original starter orientation (from the back of the bell housing) carve out enough of the original truck bell housing to provide mount area against the bandsawed plates (you'll need to make up a spacer block, probably). Make a big enough hole in the engine-side plate that you can see what you're doing when you set the bendix gear engagement...and to check for clearance as described above.
I'm going to offer an opinion, here, to respond to folks who think it's not reasonable to carve out part of the bell housings: Most of the rigidity issues related to bell housings are happening BELOW the line of the bottom of the block. If you'll add stiffeners below that line (up to the sides of the block), you can carve some pretty big holes higher up, and get away with it.
In addition to torque, the bell housing is designed to handle two primary loads....bending forces from road shock, etc., and bending forces from rocking couple vibration in the powertrain. We aren't dealing with huge jumps and bumps (we hope) and we spend a lot of time at very high engine RPM which is outside the range of the largest rocking couple flexure of the powertrain. The rocking couple flex issue is bigger than most people know, and is the reason for added brackets commonly seen on large 4-cylinder engines (nowdays the blocks are made much "deeper" to contain this at lower cost/fewer parts).
Dan and I ran the Getrag 6-speed behind our little 4-cylinder with NO rear trans mount. We fully supported the (carved) bellhousing on our motor plate (with only one bolt hanging the starter). In 1998 I spun the driveshaft at 9400 RPM (in overdrive) on the second half of the record run (the car had 4.11 rear end and the 1/4 speed was over 177). We had no problems with anything moving or touching, despite less than 1/8" clearance between the forward U-joint and the enclosure tube. Also...we couldn't use all the bolt holes, due to "too close alignment". It never was a problem, but we had 2 drive dowels taking the torque loads...not the bolts.
That trans is still healthy and now living in a Twin-Turbo Supra drag car (with part of the bell housing still carved away and missing a bolt)!
Hope this gives you some useful ideas. Regards, JimL