Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => How To Section => Topic started by: Dynoroom on April 06, 2008, 12:31:17 PM
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Yes I know it's a simple question but look at it this way, I'm an engine guy (at least I think I am) and I'm trying to finish a car that I'm WAY over my head on and we're at the point where we need to do some glass work.
We've got a plug made for the parachute farring on the modified roadster and need to glass it into the body. Were not going to build a mold we are just going to remove the plug after the part is finished, I think...... then we were just going to lay glass mat up and blend it into the body. I would like suggestions on how you would do it, any ideas are welcome.
Keep in mind none of us has ever layed up fiberglass but I know kids in high school did it so it can't be too hard but I'll bet there are some tricks some of you have to make it a bit easier.
Thanks
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I built one off parts with styrofoam by putting the fiberglass on top of it and cutting the styrofoam out once I finished it. The warehouse next to my office stocks big TV's and I got some packing styrofoam from them and used a electric carving knife to shape it.
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when you make your mold put wax paper over it, so your finally project wil come out easier. and some foam will melt. make sure you get all air pockets out, as air pockets will weaken your end result. do one layer at a time. a few tips that should help. if i think of anymore i will post more.
Danny
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Yes I know it's a simple question but look at it this way, I'm an engine guy (at least I think I am) and I'm trying to finish a car that I'm WAY over my head on and we're at the point where we need to do some glass work.
That is an LSR guy...gee I laughed....frank , fearless......Like when someone tells you something is impossible and you think to yourself " well I better get started because it sounds like it's going to take longer than I thought...."
Keep in mind none of us has ever layed up fiberglass but I know kids in high school did it so it can't be too hard but I'll bet there are some tricks some of you have to make it a bit easier.
Thanks
I love it ......can't help you with the 'glassing though Dyno ,
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I sent you a PM with my phone numbers. I will glad to help in any way I can.
John
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Yes I know it's a simple question but look at it this way, I'm an engine guy (at least I think I am) and I'm trying to finish a car that I'm WAY over my head on and we're at the point where we need to do some glass work.
That is an LSR guy...gee I laughed....frank , fearless......Like when someone tells you something is impossible and you think to yourself " well I better get started because it sounds like it's going to take longer than I thought...."
Keep in mind none of us has ever layed up fiberglass but I know kids in high school did it so it can't be too hard but I'll bet there are some tricks some of you have to make it a bit easier.
Thanks
I love it ......can't help you with the 'glassing though Dyno ,
Thanks Dr. I think it's important to keep things light in some of these rooms, glad you enjoyed it...... :-D
I sent you a PM with my phone numbers. I will glad to help in any way I can.
John
Will be in touch John, got the PM, thanks
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Kind of reminds me of one of those Christmas gifts that say a 6 yr old can assy it in 15 minutes and it takes half the night to get it together. :-D
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Fredvance:
That's 'cause Dad did it instead of the kid!
Pete
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Exactly
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Dyno,
You didn't state what your "plug" was made from. Styrofoam is easy to work with but melts when in contact with polyester resin. You might be able to wax it (buildup of wax would have to be thick). You could cover the plug with wax paper as suggested, or simply cover it with masking tape and then wax the tape of spray it with a relaese agent. If the plug is solid and will be pulled out make sure there there is a taper from front to back so it will release. Where the fairing will attach to the body grind off paint and primer to bare fiberglass or metal. Hope this is not to simplistic.
I have done a lot of fiberglass work ( making a one piece '57 Corvette 'glass body back in the '70's, how stupid was that!). To a lot of pieces on my race car, in fact I'm doing some glass work today on a air intake duct. Off subject.
Another way is to use 1/16" fiberglass sheet (available from most plastic suppliers) in 4' X4' or 4' X8' sheets. it's easy to cut and is ideal for non-contoured parts. Fit up the pieces to make the inner dimensions you need and then glass over it, sand and paint.
High density foam is easy to form and hollow out. It resists polyester resin and pieces can be glued together using Bondo. It can easily be shaped using a "cheese grater" type body file. It's rather expensive and some suppliers require full sheet purchases.
I made a handy little conversion chart for resin required per sq. in. of F/G mat so I don't waste to mush resin. You want to mix a little more than less resin. After laying up the Mat do a rough sand of the surface and use a wet resin coat utilizing F/G cloth as the final layer this makes a smoother surface for paint prep.
Hope this helps.
Tom
(time to get scratchy, then cold shower time)
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Dyno,
More on the subject. Since you will be working with mostly flat sides you can make your F/G panels ( instead of buying sheet, by figuring out the number of plies needed (probably 3 or 4) cutting the mat a little oversize and using two 1' thick pieces of pine boards of the size needed, covered by wax paper taped to the back of the board. Saturate each layer of mat and apply to one board. After all layers are one first board clamp second board on top. You can make corners to what ever radius you want by making a mold using a piece of wood dowel, PVC pipe, I ever have used Hot Water foam insulation so I could form a curved surface. Just make sure you can pop off F/G casting. Then fit up pieces and glass together.
The nice thing about this approach is that the flat panels come out very smooth and require very little prep.
Tom
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................ in fact I'm doing some glass work today on a air intake duct. Off subject.................
Well I hope you take pictures and post them in this section. It would help a lot of people out.
Thanks,
Sum
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Sum,
First picture shows "molds" : cone made of HD foam turned on drill press with cheese grater, curved piece of water pipe foam to form corners of air box & stright piece of PVC to form air box side pieces, 3' 90 degree PVC elbow to form male casting of transition from Bellhorn to plenum.
Second picture of plug for Bellhorn with finished part and diagram of ideal Bellhorn. Rim for Bellhorn was made from 1/2" fuel hose screwed to a board and glassed over.
Third picture shows air box with HD foam blocks before forming.
The forth picture is semi finished air box on car.
Tom
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Hey, thanks, nice work. That gives me and others ideas about how to make the mold or plug. I have a feeling I'll end up still having to glass some parts of my car/body or maybe all of it.
Hope you post more pictures as you finish the project,
Sum
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Hey Sum,
Some projects are never finished. If fact I am in the process of adding fiberglass lands to the top of the airbox so that I can add some fire resistant bulb seal to seal against the underside of the hood.
Tom
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Thanks Tom, great insight. You can't be to basic for me.............. I know nothing!! (in my best Srgt. Shultz voice) :-D
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................Some projects are never finished..................Tom
Good, then I expect an infinite number of pictures and commentary to follow 8-),
Sum
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Dyno,
Some more stuff on fiberglassing that may be helpful:
It takes one oz. of resin to wet 40 Sq. In. of mat.
At 70 degrees it takes 12 drops of catalyst per oz. of resin (30 drops = 1 cc of catalyst). Hotter less, colder more.
Auto paint supply shops sell various sizes of calibrated plastic cups that are great for mixing resin. Since resin is dark you can see the level through the opaque plastic.
After you layup the fiberglass puting in outside in sunshine will speed up the set of the resin (UV rays), heat lamps work good too, as long as they are not to close.
Hope this is helpful!
Tom
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Mike,
Tom has much more experience than I on this subject. Good posts Tom.
Mike, you could call Jim Miller 818-846-5139, he taught himself how to do glass work with Jack Kelly as his mentor. The body on his lakester is really nice. He also did work on Eco Fire/Speed Demon.
DW
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Dan,
My favorite Roadster was the Kelly and Hall '34. The proportions and stance, and specially the nose are great. Jack is definitely the "Glass Master"!
Dan Hostetter is also a very creative Fiberglass guy with his constantly evolving '32 Coupe. He's the only guy I know that has large sheets of high density foam in his dinning room.
His projects are on a grand scale, like the one piece streamlined front end. I'll keep to my smaller pieces.
Mike, I can put you in touch with Dan H. if you like.
Tom
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...............Dan Hostetter is .........the only guy I know that has large sheets of high density foam in his dinning room..........
......... along with a flathead on a stand in front of the window and a 50's color TV with a remote as big as a bread box 8-). His whole house is a time warp and I loved it. I forgot to ask if he allows pictures :-).
Tom has he shown you how he digitizes the car to keep track of it's previous frontal areas and such?? Talk about patience, Dan has it.
c ya,
Sum
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Hey Sum,
Yeah, his house could best be described as a "trip".
Off the subject but a good story. Dan had a coming out, or birthday party when he finished his first version of the '32. Party was on his front lawn. His garage door was open but the openning was papered over. Dan got in his fire suit and as I remember his helmet, fired up the engine, drove thru the paper and up the block. In making the U-turn the engine died and we had to push him home. Great fun!
Back on point:
Mike, I was just outside doing some glass work and thought of a few more hints.
I noted briefly how weather affects how the resin kicks. Today it's cloudy and cool here. Probably much the same up your way. Temprature and humidity both affect the working life of a batch of resin, and how long it takes to set. Today it's about 60 degrees so I used about 18 drops of catalyst per ounce of resin and it kicked at about 15 minutes while remaining a little tacky before finally setting hard. At 80 degrees I would probably have used a ratio of 10 drops. Sometines on cooler days it seems like the resin will never kick, but eventually it will.
One thing I learned the hard way is that applying polyester resin over epoxy resin doesn't work. The polyester resin will not set, even with a lot of heat.
The thing I forgot to mention is to have fun with it! Some really complex shapes can be made using internal /external molds and or HD foam. It's easy to cut, grind and sand.
Another quick story. Back in the late '60's local Drag Racer Randy Walls rented a '69 Nova for the weekend. As the story goes he used modeling clay to fill all the seams, waxed everything up good and made a mold for his Funny Car. Cleaned up the Nova and took it back with no one the wiser.
Tom
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I'm reading all of this guys just to busy to reply so keep it coming. I will post so pictures of the basic layout soon.
Thanks everyone.
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Mike,
Some more rambling thoughts.
A good way to saturate F/G Mat is to cover an appropriate piece of plywood with waxed paper (my wife keeps wondering what happened to her kitcher roll). You can pour some of the resin and spread it and press it in with a cheap disposable brush. Actually I use a two stage cleanup with acetone and the last a long time. When the mat is saturated with resin it us easier to locate on your plug or mold and will conform to the shape with just a little more resin needed to be brushed on.
As mentioned above by "Nitropyro", you want to get rid of any air bubbles. They make a special roller that has a series of pizza cutter like wheels with spaces between. Below is a picture but I don't know if the detail will be clear. Well, enough for now. I hope I'm not beating this subject to death.
Tom
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Another quick story. Back in the late '60's local Drag Racer Randy Walls rented a '69 Nova for the weekend. As the story goes he used modeling clay to fill all the seams, waxed everything up good and made a mold for his Funny Car. Cleaned up the Nova and took it back with no one the wiser.
Tom
some guys in Perth(western Australia) did that a while back with a brand new model Ford sedan....got their mum to hire it and worked flat out all weekend .....quite a stir to come out with a drop on body at about the time the first replacement panels were arriving at dealers :-D :-D
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............ I hope I'm not beating this subject to death......Tom
I don't think so, good stuff. What ever you do don't go up and do it for Mike. Make him do it himself, but you could come to Utah and help me 8-) ,
Sum
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Roughen the surface your adding to, pile it on let it harden then grind and bondo to shape. next time you will have thought of improved ways to do it! Nebulous
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OK, here's what we did in about 8 hrs. time. The parachute box is done and the fairing around the roll cage is located. tomorrow we will lay the top part of the fairing and connect the parachute box to the top of the fairing around the cage. After that we hope to bond it to the body over the weekend.
This is what the back of the car looked like. It needed help............BAD!
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/Fromshop784Small.jpg)
Parachute box back on car.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/RoadsterFairing003Small.jpg)
This is the shape we are trying to get, it blends well with the tin work at the front of the car.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/RoadsterFairing002Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/RoadsterFairing004Small.jpg)
This is the basic shape.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/Fromshop1105Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Modified%20Roadster/Fromshop1096Small.jpg)
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Dynoroom and crew, :-D
Be sure and follow through with photos of how the process progresses on the roadster. 8-) That way the rest of us can learn some stuff without having to get the itches in the process! Good Luck. :roll:
The amazing thing about the fiberglass stuff is the way it can be shaped and still be strong enough to last for years. :lol:
Are you planning on stashing anything inside the nacelle other than the chute at the end? :|
Best Regards to you and yours,
HB2 :-)
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Very good info here.
But I have a slightly different question concerning fiberglass. I will be adding 36" to the front of my CC Ghia. Instead of making it out of metal, I figure that a one piece 'glass nose will be the best route if/when I need to recreate it.
The question is, would it be better to take the existing nose (all one piece metal), add in the 36", and then use it as a plug for a fresh mold, or purchase a stock length 'glass nose and stretch it?
I'm no stranger to fiberglass work, but I've never attempted anything of this scale and size. So be gentle. :-D
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Ray-Dean
Google fiberglass molds, there is a lot of info that might help you. Good luck on the project, keep us updated. :-D
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Thanks.
I've spent the last few days reading everything I can find on the subject. I'm just not sure if it would be better to make a plug, mold, then the nose, or if it would be easier to just mod. an existing 'glass nose.
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Mod an existing to perfection, then make a mold.
Sam
Former mold maker
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Ray-Dean,
Using an existing F/G front end would make the process easier than making a complete mold of the front end plus extension, unless you plan to do some extensive modifications like Sam suggested.
If you use a cross-sectional cut as a contour (such as near the cowl where the panels would be relatively constant) then making a mold and a male part would be relatively (there's that word again) easy. Grafting the 36" section to an existing F/G front end would be a piece of cake!
Post pictures.
Tom