Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: John Romero on March 19, 2008, 05:18:16 PM
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Over the last couple of months there has been lots of discussions at the board/reps meetings about vehicles that go “out of bounds” at the lakes meet. Out of bounds is essentially anywhere outside of the coned off course and typically refers to someone going out the back door but there have been a few cases of people going off the side of the course as well.
As a bit of background, the SCTA has a special use permit for the area inside the cones at El Mirage on our race days. It’s OUR area. But outside the cones is not ours and we are not supposed to be going there with our racecars. Our BLM liaison has stated at the meeting that the BLM is not amused when we go outside our area and if something happens it would likely be the end of our permit and the end of SCTA racing at El Mirage. This, along with the frequency of people repeatedly going out of bounds have caused the “tide” to turn recently regarding penalties/sanctions/consequences to racers who go out of the marked course.
At the March 7th Board/Reps meeting there was a continuation of the discussions and a proposal was passed by the club reps for 2008. There was broad support for this proposal and most of those who didn’t support it withheld it because they wanted harsher penalties.
(this is only my paraphrase of the proposal that passed, see the SCTA El Mirage Procedures for the final/Official text of the rule)
The 1st time you go out of bounds you are required to go back for a re-inspection inspection and it is added to your log book.
The 2nd time you do it you have to go back through inspection and it’s added to you log book. Additionally you lose all points for that meet and your club does not get your points for the meet either.
The 3rd time you do it you have to go back through inspection where it’s added to you log book. You lose all points for that meet and your club does not get your points for the meet either and your case is sent automatically to the board for punitive action. There was no specific board action noted but I got the feeling that it would be at least a temporary ban, possibly up to a whole season, but your mileage may vary.
There was no mention of a 4th infraction. Apparently the boards doesn't think you can do it with their boot in your rear end. :-P
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Did they establish a time frame for the infractions? (Out the door in '52, again in
'78 and banned in 2008.)
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John,
Good to see you back.
Tom G.
PS. IMO the rules are not harsh enough, especially if it could cost us our racing at El Mirage.
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Did they establish a time frame for the infractions? (Out the door in '52, again in
'78 and banned in 2008.)
To be honest Stan, I don't recall. I know there was one proposal that was based on a rolling 12 month period but I think it was a different one than the one that passed. I guess we will have to wait till the procedures are published to see the exact implementation.
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I think you have to also find out why they go out the back door. I watched one bike somehow miss the fact that the finish line came and went and kept the power on for a long time after the finish. It looked like a REAL surprise when the back door cones came up! I never saw somebody sit up that fast. Is the finish line marked well enough? I know DUH.
Every time I hear "No chute" being yelled, I ask how that can happen. It isn't an accident, it's somebody's failure to do their job.
I'm surprised at the number that do go out the back door. It shouldn't happen more than once or twice a year.
For those of you that run much faster than I do, is it hard to see at high speed? Both the finish line and the cones at the end?
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I think you have to also find out why they go out the back door. I watched one bike somehow miss the fact that the finish line came and went and kept the power on for a long time after the finish. It looked like a REAL surprise when the back door cones came up! I never saw somebody sit up that fast. Is the finish line marked well enough? I know DUH.
Every time I hear "No chute" being yelled, I ask how that can happen. It isn't an accident, it's somebody's failure to do their job.
I'm surprised at the number that do go out the back door. It shouldn't happen more than once or twice a year.
For those of you that run much faster than I do, is it hard to see at high speed? Both the finish line and the cones at the end?
It was discussed as well. There seem to be many causes, from inadequate forward visibility, equipment failure and inability to recognize the timing lights as just a few. Repeat offenders will have a much more difficult time with it. It was reported that many are happening with rookies who went through orientation the morning of the race rather than the night before. The difference being that the night before they all drive down the course and get out of the car at the finish line. The race day orientation does not do that. I think (not sure) that they also decided no more race day orientation in 2008 for just this reason. They are also discussing ways to make the timing lights more obvious.
The bottom line is that SCTA seems to be putting some teeth behind this rule for 2008.
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so far i havent ran fast enough to run out the back door but im in the middle of designing a new bike that should run well over 200 mph (please dont ask ) the bike i run now only has a rear brake and im wondering if that will be enough --how much distance is there after the finish line to get stopped i dont know and if there is a problem with people running out the back door maybe the back door could be moved just some thoughts willie buchta
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SCTA, collectively, MUST do its job to ensure all course markers and limits are clearly visible/recognizable to all, naturally.
Willie , if you're worried about exceeding course length, I'd think about laying the bike down and bailing off, that way the man stays in bounds and only the machine violates the boundary rule.
That'll leave the penalty up to the expert rulemakers.
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seriously how long is the shut down area willie buchta
the wording is vehicle going out of bounds
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Willie, I believe its a mile. I'm open to correction on that. Whatever the distance is Leggit can get stopped form over 300 so barring a catastrophic failure there is no reason (other than stupidity) for going out the back door. Think about it. Out the back door get involved in a crash with someone. Big lawsuit. End of El Mirage. The penalties aren't harsh enough.
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yea they should be shot--i just wondered because im building a new bike and dont want to run a front brake and was wondering if i will have enough room to stop sounds like i will if i dont il run a front brake whatever it takes--only kidding about the shooting -- gotta go willie buchta
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Willie,
My bike ran 230mph at el mo last year and i had plenty of real estate left in the shutdown area and i wasn't on my brakes hard. I just sat up and turned out to the cones on the return side. i run 1 front disc and a rear disc.
Something else to ponder with your new bike:
If you have a catastrophic failure that causes a fire you will want to get the bike slowed down as fast as possible and get off the bike. If you are only running a rear brake you could be in trouble.
All it will take to go out the back door will be for your bike to toss a drive chain in the lights and now you have no engine braking.
I would run a front brake at el mo and rear only at bville.
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thanks jason i think you are right willie buchta
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Willie, Put a front brake on it. It may not look cool but it may keep you from looking stupid. I run an old Norton which isn't very fast but at the May '06 meet I spit the primary just at the lights. Normally I shut the throttle and let the engine braking slow me. When the chain broke I swear the Norton accelerated!!. I wasn't carrying enough speed to go out the back but a faster bike could. But it did surprise me how much I took engine braking for granted.
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John, et al,
It is beyond me why we don't use a catch net at El Mirage like they do now and then at Bonneville. I have some pics of it but I can't remember how to post them to this message or I would show them to y'all. As I recall the net stopped Carl Heap (sp?) and his twin diesel, quad turbo, highway hauler one time.
It would seem to be just the ticket for the dirt. Basically it's a nylon net held about three feet high, held up on some plastic water pipe. Each end it attached to a parachute. You drive into it, it wraps you up, "pops" its chutes, and you stop.
Given that with each pass we are risking the entire future of our sport, I would think it would have been implemented. I mean we have seat belts to keep from killing one of our "own", we should have a safety net to keep from killing one of "theirs".
Been out the back door about 50 feet once myself due to a "stoopid" chute packing error.
Oops!
Jim
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Willie, I believe its a mile. I'm open to correction on that. Whatever the distance is Leggit can get stopped form over 300 so barring a catastrophic failure there is no reason (other than stupidity) for going out the back door. Think about it. Out the back door get involved in a crash with someone. Big lawsuit. End of El Mirage. The penalties aren't harsh enough.
Jim and Willie,
It is about .7 - .8 of a mile from what I remember, I think it is closer to .7
John
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The idea of a catch net seems viable. The side benefit might be knowing it's there and not wanting the embarassment of untangling your car after going throught it.
Could there be safety issues in "netting" a car at speed? Certainly these would be offset by increased safety of the public riding North & South past the backdoor.
Where would the net have to be placed to assure no one going out the back?
Has the SCTA talked to BLM about extending the shutdown area. The cars are getting faster. Again maybe it's partially an educational issue.
Tom
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I'm thinking there might well be a saftey issue in "netting" a bike! :-o Or clothslining the rider... :-o
How many bikes have gone out the back door?
Should 4 wheel brakes for cars and 2 wheel brakes for bikes be required over a certain speed? They may be, but I didn't find it.
Larry
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Larry,
As to a safety issue with netting a car or clotheslining a rider, I guess I would have to say, "Too bad!" Virtually every run you are prototyping, and every run risks the entire sport. You know that going in and you go in anyway.
And as to where to put the net, perhaps about 100 yards short of the back door would do, because as I recall, the chutes are pretty big. Kind of like an auxilliary chute when you sky dive. The first one opens sorta gentle. The safety chute opens "wham!", bruises the daylights out of you, but saves your life.
And as to four wheel brakes.... dunno. Most brakes are pretty useless above 200 or so, but I suppose we could make a rule about spending money on carbon fiber or spikes driven down into the dirt, or something.
Keep the shiny side up.
Jim
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With each run there is always the possibility of a catastrophic failure that means you can't stop. We all try to minimize such a happening. There is a simple solution to this. If you go out the back door and unless you can prove it to be something beyond your control, you're gone for the season. Drastic? Yes. But it would also ensure that there would be a lot of re-checks done to make sure everything is a-ok.
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Dunno, Norton,
Kind of like you don't have to wear a helmet or seat belts until after your first crash. Unless of course the crash was caused by a moronic specator crossing the course while you were 200+mph. Then it wouldn't be your fault. In which case you might be "banned" permanently (to the cemetary).
I mean the sand dragsters run what, something like 100 yards? And they run with something like a 102 yard "leash" that yanks the ignition as they go through the lights. Maybe something like that so at least "seeing" the finish line wouldn't be necessary.
'nuf random thots for now.
Jim
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There is a catch net for Bonneville, (I know we are talking about el Mirage), and it is there, when it's put up, for a vehicle to run thru the catch net and stop the vehicle in case of parachute problems or brake problems... It was designed to be driven into at SPEED, if you have nothing else, it seems like a good option to me.
There have been several cases where the catch net could have proved beneficial at Bonneville.
Tom Burkland is a good resource on information about it, maybe he will post and give some more information.
It could be procedure, that if you go out the back door you BETTER be in the net.
It would have to be an additional duty for el mirage to have it up every meet.
Jon
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Some who have run out the back door comment that they did not 'see' the finish. The two story tower plus ballons are there, I have seen it each time I have driven. How about a laser beam that runs with the timing beam that would put out an EMF signal that toasts the igintion system ensuring that the engine shuts off at the finish line.
DW
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I think DW is on the right right track, however, his solution might be a little extreme. It might be saved for the drivers third trip out the back door. My suggestion to set of a buzzer or bells off at the finish line. You could use a light, maybe flashing, triggered at 50 to 100 yards past the finish line.
Kip305
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The first time I ran at Elmer, in the morning orientation, I noted the large balloons at the timing lights. By the time we ran after noon (with a lousy starting position), I was looking for the balloons. The car was all over the place, and I saw the cones coming up and decided I'd had enough and shut it down just before the cones (but maybe not the timing lights(?)). I wasn't sure. But it was the lights. The balloons were probably in Cajon Pass by then.
I think a permanent reminder, no Space Age tether or such, might not be a bad idea. Like a blinking light. That you could count on being there.
I've been on patrol and seen a Roadster blaze by me to the left side backwards into the general public area. And another Roadster driver, though new, not a first-timer, see the big balloons at the back door and accelerate (!) out through them.
Perhaps an unchanging marker, like the lights mentioned above, would be feasible and doable.
Stan Back
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Here is a picture of my car going through the lights at El Mirage. I don't know how much more visible you can make it.
Tom G.
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I think a permanent reminder, no Space Age tether or such, might not be a bad idea. Like a blinking light. That you could count on being there.
There was discussion about something like this in an earlier meeting and a sample was brought to the last meeting. Unfortunately it was too large and heavy and could have been quite unsafe if it got run down at speed. So I think that they were looking at some of the high intensity, really small LED's that are super lightweight but insanely bright.
This is an ongoing thing by the SCTA and multiple people are involved in trying to get a workable solution to make both the 132 foot trap and the back door more easily identifiable.
Most of those that voiced an opinion said that the shutdown distance was not the problem. The real problem was in getting people to respect the fact that the back door was an emergency option only. Freddie's 300+ MPH run without going out the back door was brought up repeatedly as a response to the insufficient run-out distance question.
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I have to agree with Desotoman. How hard is it to see the finish line boards? (http://)(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/156/b0592byq6.jpg)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake) at 2008-02-04
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My point was that there was something a lot more visible and identifiable in the morning that was gone in the afternoon. And the Roadster that accelerated out the back door could have been looking for the balloons at the finish line that were then missing.
Norton -- we know it's hard to balance on two wheels, but you usually don't have a lot of horsepower issues that are getting your attention.
It's apparent that some don't know where the finish line is -- because this has caused some of the problems. I was only suggesting that perhaps something could be added to lessen this problem without a great deal of cost.
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I believe that if a car takes out the lights that when the lights were restored then sometimes the balloons were not.
Maybe we need to have a bunch of balloons at the finish line rather than just one on each side as well.
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If you put the finish line ballons on the ground instead of the air they will not be flying somewhere else when the wind comes up. Maybe use two ballons on each side next to the sign boards and lights, just a few fet from the TWO story trailer.
DW
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Well after being there the obvious solution to me is run the course the other direction. I'll bet they wouldn't go out the back door more than once in that direction and George (is that his name?) might have some more parts to add to his collection at his house :evil:.
c ya in Nov. at El M.,
Sum
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Well after being there the obvious solution to me is run the course the other direction. I'll bet they wouldn't go out the back door more than once in that direction and George (is that his name?) might have some more parts to add to his collection at his house :evil:.
c ya in Nov. at El M.,
Sum
George seems to be able to add to his collection every meet, regardless of course direction. Thats the reason he keeps that big forklift around. He thinks that after each crash that if he is the first one there then he gets the salvage rights to the wreck. Somebody needs to remind him that if the lake is dry then marine salvage rules don't apply.
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H. Shut Down Requirements After Run
All drivers MUST be off the power immediately after passing through the timing lights. Balloons
and multiple cones indicate the end of the powered course. Drivers who stay under power past
the timing lights are subject to having their timing slip withheld, at the discretion of the Chief
Timer.
looks like this would be a good place to start --i know it wont solve all the mechanical problems but it might solve the "wasnt paying attention" ones willie buchta
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The problem is not what to do for normal runs. I mean dragsters come down from 330mph in 1/4 mile (with something like a 6g hit when the chute(s) hit). So cars can be stopped if things work.
The question is what to do when things, or brains, or egos don't work. It might be interesting to see about the magnitude of the problem, at least as it pertains to speed. Fer instance what's the slowest car to have ever gone out? Could it be that regs need to be put into place for vehicle mods only for cars traveling over that speed? Just asking.
Frankly I kind of like running back towards George's. Kind of does away with Elmo HP on those windy days, but if somebody did go "out" we'd only kill a few pucker bushes and bend up the car pretty good. The bent car would be penalty enough and would eliminate the heartbreak for the board of how hard to come down on an "innocent" offender. Not to mention no sun in your eyes on those early morning runs. We could even make a "dog leg" (much like ECTA) up into that piece of the lake just north of the SCTA building road for the folks in real trouble and able to steer.
Just my $.015
Jim
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I would think that more balloons :roll: would help too, say 6 on each side going down the couse spaced out about 2-4 feet apart so it would tell you you are about to go into the lights and maybe the (outsiders) would see them also. until some one takes them out. :roll:
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i would be in favour of putting the catch net on the return road side of the course near the top end to "catch" the dirt bikers who like to cut across the top end of the course on a regular basis. :-).