Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: GearSpeedKelvo on March 10, 2008, 02:20:29 AM
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I have a honda civic currently I'm waiting for the parts and the LSR rulebook.
In a civic what set up do you recommended like roll cage size, etc?
Is plexi and aluminum flooring allowed in LSR?
I know chop top is allowed but what else do I need to lessen the weight in the car?
Since I'll be promoting and organizing a Land Speed Race here in the Philippines.I'm also going to build a Land Speed Race Car.Although we don't have a desert here in the Philippines but we do have a very long road here.
Thanks.
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Better wait until you have a rulebook, or you'll be very upset.
Just for starters, heavy (not light) is better in LSR, and depending on your class, chop topping may not be allowed.
I'll let the others have their say, but I'd proceed slowly if I were you.
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Sounds interesting.
What class are you looking to build for? With the chopped top it sounds like comp coupe as that is not legal in any other class. What year chassis and what engine? N/A or turbo?
I will second aircaps statement about weight. You will be adding lots more before you are done so I personally would not waste any time trying to remove it. I just spent the weekend removing the K frame from underneath my 2001 Civic racecar for rework. Currently it has over 125 lbs of lead shot in it and I am dumping all of that out and pouring in molten lead to try to get over 200 lbs in it. I already have over 100 pounds of lead poured into the front bumper. :-P
As to the size of the rollcage, go big. If something happens at top speed you don't want to "hope" that your safety equipment is good enough. The rulebooks are just now becoming available and those are minimum specs. Look to improve on those.
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It's YOUR event.....write your OWN rules.....do your own thinking....................................................
You want to chop the top....do it.....write the rule that you can run a chopped top..............................
The rules that are in the books at the present time are far from perfect.....improve on them...
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[quote author=bak189
It's YOUR event.....write your OWN rules.....do your own thinking....................................................
I'm in agreement. If you will run the car primarily in the Phillipines build it for a 1 mile standing start, and not necessarily the salt.
Thinking in that vein
Build the car you want, modify the way you want and call it the "CIVIC" class.
I would put in pretty stout cage, stretch the wheelbase, and look at weight savings on other things. Example, my liner wannabe is now 248" wheelbase. The rear end is light weight, mag rear, mag transmission case, relatively light weight body components, and heavier components as we go forward, to a point that front end parts are pretty heavy and in fact some ballast is welded into tubes. If you do this and make provisions for more ballast in the rear you should be in pretty good shape. Consider also that if you will NOT be running on the salt, that traction, (tires and weight transfer) need to be well thought out.
Of course if you are doing a front wheel drive,,,,nevermind.......
Do have fun, and making your own rules might just be that.
Rick
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My civic is ek hatch and I'll be putting k20a in it.
What tires can I use?
I already ordered through my relatives in the U.S but it may take awhile.Why would I be upset?
According to Drew one of the drivers I knew who joined LSR at El Mirage.Choptop is allowed.
So what's the size of the roll cage?
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Hi,
We ran an Acura RSX with a highly modified K20A engine last season at El Mirage and Bonneville last year. Tires?? We use Goodyear Front Runners and experimented with tire sizes - started with 26 in and have ended up finalizing on 21" (after having gone through all the numbers in the middle) to get the nose as low as possible. We even ran one event on 1 X 24" and 1 X 23" (by mistake) - and got the record. I'll look up our roll cage specs for you, but I know it was built for 200 mph (just in case and wishful thinking).
Mac
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OK, two trains of thought already here. If you are thinking of running the car on the salt here at some time, follow the scta rules closely. If you are thinking of running a LSR event in the PI, then your rulebook is your safety minimums guide.
For the mile events, weight is a major factor affecting acceleration, go light... for the salt, weight is a major factor affecting traction, go heavy. So removable ballast may be your answer. Don't scrimp on safety... :|
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OK, two trains of thought already here. If you are thinking of running the car on the salt here at some time, follow the scta rules closely. If you are thinking of running a LSR event in the PI, then your rulebook is your safety minimums guide.
For the mile events, weight is a major factor affecting acceleration, go light... for the salt, weight is a major factor affecting traction, go heavy. So removable ballast may be your answer. Don't scrimp on safety... :|
Thanks but how light?
Here in the PI since we don't have a desert here we will be doing land speed using public road but we will get permits for that.
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Like a 1/4 mile car, you want to be going as fast as possible for the distance. The mass you have must be put in motion and then stopped in the prescribed distance. LSR mile tracks are just longer drag races. It is a balance between weight, power and traction. The salt has the same issues but with more room for acceleration and less traction so weight adds to traction. Hope this helps :-)
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Like a 1/4 mile car, you want to be going as fast as possible for the distance. The mass you have must be put in motion and then stopped in the prescribed distance. LSR mile tracks are just longer drag races. It is a balance between weight, power and traction. The salt has the same issues but with more room for acceleration and less traction so weight adds to traction. Hope this helps :-)
So that means I'll do the drag race set up like lightening putting lexian windows,choptop etc that will make 600kg weight but the setting of the engine is for longer race.
Is that what you mean?
Wouldn't it be dangerous if its too light?
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So that means I'll do the drag race set up like lightening putting lexian windows,choptop etc that will make 600kg weight but the setting of the engine is for longer race. Is that what you mean?
Basically you are setting up the car for maximum acceleration and top speed for the prescribed distance, so lighter should accelerate faster to top speed. If you max out speed in the quarter, then you need to re-gear to go faster, if the engine runs out of power in the half, then you need more HP. Most mile races use a trap at the end, so you want top speed at the end. The salt averages speed over a mile, so you want to actually be building speed slightly through the mile timing. Vehicle set up is what makes this sport a challenge. It is that balance I mentioned earlier.
Wouldn't it be dangerous if its too light?
I guess that depends on aero, lift or downforce you design in. If you watch the flying RX-7 video on U-tube you will see what I mean. In some Firebirds 120 is too fast, others are running nearly 300.
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So that means I'll do the drag race set up like lightening putting lexian windows,choptop etc that will make 600kg weight but the setting of the engine is for longer race. Is that what you mean?
Basically you are setting up the car for maximum acceleration and top speed for the prescribed distance, so lighter should accelerate faster to top speed. If you max out speed in the quarter, then you need to re-gear to go faster, if the engine runs out of power in the half, then you need more HP. Most mile races use a trap at the end, so you want top speed at the end. The salt averages speed over a mile, so you want to actually be building speed slightly through the mile timing. Vehicle set up is what makes this sport a challenge. It is that balance I mentioned earlier.
Wouldn't it be dangerous if its too light?
I guess that depends on aero, lift or downforce you design in. If you watch the flying RX-7 video on U-tube you will see what I mean. In some Firebirds 120 is too fast, others are running nearly 300.
I see what you mean now.In drag usually it uses 1st-4th gear in land speed races I have to use all the gears right?
I saw the you tube video of RX7.I don't want that to happen to my car.
Thanks for the input.
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While I hate to disagree with Dan W (he has decades of experience compared to my 2 years), but reduced weight really isn't much of a factor, even in 1 mile standing start. I was told this at the track last April but I didn't believe them. So I brought the car back in May with all the weight removed that I possibly could (A/C, all but the driver's seat, etc). The speed difference - 0.0 mph. Absolutely no difference. We then taped up the grille and body seams. Speed difference - about 5 mph. Aero is everything! And HP, of course.
The book calls for 1 5/8, 0.120 wall tubing for your cage. You can use either EWS (electrically welded seam) or DOM (drawn over mandrel, seamless) tubing. I have some of each. This is the spec for a 200 mph cage, but more is always better. I'd avoid chrome moly - it HAS to be TIG welded and should be normalized following welding. And it's a TON more expensive.
Good Luck and have fun
Dan
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While I hate to disagree with Dan W (he has decades of experience compared to my 2 years), but reduced weight really isn't much of a factor, even in 1 mile standing start. I was told this at the track last April but I didn't believe them. So I brought the car back in May with all the weight removed that I possibly could (A/C, all but the driver's seat, etc). The speed difference - 0.0 mph. Absolutely no difference. We then taped up the grille and body seams. Speed difference - about 5 mph. Aero is everything! And HP, of course............Good Luck and have fun..Dan
Interesting, I'm a firm believer it doesn't help and usually hurts to cut weight on the salt, but I would have bet otherwise at maxton. So what was the speed?? What was the weight??
I would still tend to think this is a case by case deal that depends on the top speed of the vehicle, HP, initial weight, ...... One that can run speeds approaching 250 in the mile vs. say one that is running less than 150 I would surly think would benefit from less weight if it still had the traction that was needed.
c ya,
Sum
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Dan W me or Dan W someone else?
I don't see a reply from me here Dan. I am a fan of weight at the salt. You gotta use heavy stuff anyway, so might as well build it in. The Alfa weighed in excess of 2 tons, Dyno Room has stated that the Firebird is 5000# plus.
I haven't experienced a mile like Maxon yet, will be there on the 4/5th. I am guessing that the requirement is much like drag racing. You need to be light to accelerate the mass to some extent. But a dual purpose car will be on the heavy side.
DW
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Hi,
We ran an Acura RSX with a highly modified K20A engine last season at El Mirage and Bonneville last year. Tires?? We use Goodyear Front Runners and experimented with tire sizes - started with 26 in and have ended up finalizing on 21" (after having gone through all the numbers in the middle) to get the nose as low as possible. We even ran one event on 1 X 24" and 1 X 23" (by mistake) - and got the record. I'll look up our roll cage specs for you, but I know it was built for 200 mph (just in case and wishful thinking).
Mac
Do you have picture of your RSX?
thanks
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At long last here is the LSR Rulebook
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1301/book6ie9.jpg)
I'm still waiting for the engine though.While waiting for the engine.I'll be looking for a k24 engine(If I can find one here in PI).
Some of the k20a here in PI is outside the head I saw it has oil already.
Some even has PRC embed but the transmission's sticker says its PRB.
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Here some photos of the Civic of GearSpeed Motorsports.
(http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2685/civic5mn2.jpg)
(http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5228/civic6fy6.jpg)
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Meanwhile here is the shop of GearSpeed Motorsports here in the Philippines.
(http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6/img6557ep0.jpg)
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The engine will arrive on January 2009.
Can anyone move this thread in the building diaries?
Thanks.
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Just start a new thread in build diaries, it costs about the same.... :-D We all look forward to seeing pictures.
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I will.I'm just waiting for the engine to arrive. :-D
Does anyone here going to visit the Philippines on January or February 2009?
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Kelvo,
I have raced Bonneville, The Texas Mile and Maxton. My wife and I travel to the Philippines regularly. Are you in Manila? Drop me a line by email and perhaps I can be of some help to you. lsr_man@yahoo.com
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Something arrived yesterday.I'll post the photos this week. :-D
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(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3711/k19yl5.jpg)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8504/img7092vi8.jpg)
Here it is
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7973/k21lc5.jpg)
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Here what I've been waiting for.Hasport Ekk2
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3407/img7923m.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/443/img7924i.jpg)
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Sad to say I have to give up this vehicle because I found out the car was cut in half.Today I'm looking for a 1988-1991 Honda CRX here in the Philippines.The project will still continue.
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You mean "as in Chop Shop?"
FREUD
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Maybe he forgot to measure twice cut once?
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Probably two wrecks spliced together. Good front, good rear.
or someone snuck in and actually cut it in half. :?
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Ek hatch here came in Japan some say ek hatch arrived here as a one whole vehicle some are cut in half in order to say its a wreck vehicle and save costs.