Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: isiahstites on March 02, 2008, 10:39:56 PM
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Is it the most aerodynamic fairing there is? If so what is close in comparison? If not, what is?
Scott
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Dustbin fairing with Toy seat....................................
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Is it the most aerodynamic fairing there is? If so what is close in comparison? If not, what is?
Dustbin fairing with Toy seat....................................
Of course, the real question should be about legal fairings....
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A "Dust Bin" fairing on a 2 wheeler will cause you to " Bite the Dust ". :roll:
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Dustbin fairings ARE LEGAL......................................
AMA/FIM=BUB
So there is NO question about "legal" fairings..........................................................
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But don't arrive at an SCTA or USFRA or ECTA event with a dustbin fairing -- at least, don't if you want to run. Dustbins are NOT legal with those sanctioning bodies. I don't know about the Texas Mile.
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WRONG......SCTA/BNI......allows dustbins on sidecars........................I understand the Aussies
now allow them on solo-bikes.....right Gary?.....
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"Ill advised is reckless and indefensible." :-(
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Ah, yes, I stand corrected. I always seem to forget about the tricycles -- I don't pay strict attention to the description of what they're allowed to run until it's time to inspect them. And please, DLRA folks -- don't scold me for neglecting to include you in my comments (whether I would have got your information right or wrong, I still didn't put you in there).
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If I recall, there nothing in the SCTA/BNI rule
book that states Dustbin fairing are allowed
on sidecars.......another one of those famous
"the eye of the beholder" equal....Tech. inspector
Hey, maybe you think the sidecar rules could stand some"updating"...........to do away with the
"eye of the beholder' theory.................................
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Whats a Charlie Toy Fairing? :roll:
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7.I.12 allows for a fairing that restricts egress, such as might be found with a dustbin fairing, on sidecar streamliners. 7.I.3 requires that the rider must be able to exit without restriction (as might be experienced in a dustbin fairinged-bike), unless in compliance with enclosed streamliner rules.
So -- if you've got a dustbin fairing on a two-wheeled bike, don't appear at SCTA or the other bodies' events. Check to make sure you'll be able to run if you go to Bub's or DLRA.
I think that responds to the question in both ways. Ask again if we've missed something.
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There's a guy named Charlie Toy that designed, in cooperation with a another racer or two, a fairing that's pretty aero efficient. Kent Riches (AirTech) has the molds and makes the fairings for us racers -- and the easy nomenclature for said fairing is a "Charlie Toy" fairing. Here's photo of my bike with the fairing -- a few others are running the same body, and more are running the tail section only with their own front pieces.
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If you are new to this and confused . . .
This is a dustbin fairing:
(http://www.schultzengineering.us/dustbin.jpg)
The problem with them is the sensitivity to side winds.
If you look at the picture of the Charlie Toy fairing and just look at the cutout, it is the shape of a leg and foot. The entire body does a pretty good job of disappearing inside the body work.
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Interesting......I should point out that at this time my
SCTA/BNI rule book is back in California and
some of you who have the book right there in hand feel free to correct the following:
If I recall the rule book states that that a minimum of 180 degrees of wheel and tire must be showing and not blocked by streamlining........ both front and rear wheels. If this is correct......
it would be legal to use a Dustbin fairing on solo-bikes if the Dustbin fairing is mounted above the axcle of the front wheel.........
180degrees of wheel would not be covered by streamlning.........What say ye...........................
P.S> Thanks for the picture, Dean
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it would be legal to use a Dustbin fairing on solo-bikes if the Dustbin fairing is mounted above the axcle of the front wheel.........
7.G.11 There must be no streamlining forward of the front edge of the front rim.
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Thanks Dean, like I noted my SCTA/BNI Rule book
is not with me..........yes, that would rule out a Dustbin fairing...........................................................
To bad, for I feel we could see some outstanding
speeds at SCTA/BNI events if they were allowed.
In regards to their sensitivity to side winds...this could be controlled by the event official just like the M/C liners are now.
AMA/FIM=BUB rule 6.A.
Minimum of 180 degrees must be showing of the front and rear wheel. It must not be blocked by streamling. Streamlining over the wheel must not extent below the axels...........
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Ok guys what about aerodynamics of different fairings? Has anyone ver tested the aero of several motorcycle fairings and posted the info?
Scott
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If you wish to see the partially streamlined bikes have the same crash rate as the full streamliner, it is going to require they have the same level of protection.
It is not mechanical failure or the speed , but the speed of the changes in the conditions over the distance traveled. :wink:
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Scott the toy fairing is worth minimum 10 mph over oem style bodywork. pay close atttention to symetrical mounting and side winds.
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Scott the toy fairing is worth minimum 10 mph over oem style bodywork. pay close atttention to symetrical mounting and side winds.
Thank you Jason.........
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you're welcome Scott.
the toy body is the cheapest mph around. Kent hooked me up with one and we set 6 records at speedweek in 2004(qualified for the 7th record but thats another story!)
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you're welcome Scott.
the toy body is the cheapest mph around. Kent hooked me up with one and we set 6 records at speedweek in 2004(qualified for the 7th record but thats another story!)
I have already talked to Kent about buying the fairing from him and is what I have planned on going with all along, I was just trying to find any info I could about the fairing.
Thanks again,
Scott
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The HD has some advantage over the big cammers because it can be relativly narrow. :wink:
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Also Vincent's, look at Dave Matson's nice bike.
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Also Vincent's, look at Dave Matson's nice bike.
Dave is faster than the average bear.
I remember when the Vintage Class was invented , he said he would rather run "Heads Up" against everybody else.
Dave is "Real " vintage , and at the top of the list. 8-)
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if the charlie toy fairing package is so good, why is it that the fast busa`s are using catalyst composites fairings :?
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Because they offer a direct bolt on setup without having to modify their bikes, make brackets, most will go with bolt on then the challenge of getting a good fairing on. takes alot of time and effort to do it. Also it may not fit real good on the chassis so by right the oem may be better then a toy fairing. don't know if anybody has tried to get they Toy fairing on a busa? Noonan ran a rear tail section of the Toy setup and felt the OEM was just as good. however I think the Toy body is a total package and would not offer the gains by using just part of it.
Jon
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ronnie.... because the toy fairing is only avalible to people i like
kent
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Way to go, Kent...........our Team LOVES you........
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Ron,
If you remember the bike I ran in Australia you would remember that I ran Kent's (Airtech) front and lower bodywork, it was Kents own design of what we will call Busa/Toy bodywork and I did use the rear tail section Kent made which is a Toy body that is narrowed and shortened at the WOS race years ago. I like the look and the fit was awesome I removed it to test a stock tail and never went back to Kent to replace it and then that bike was sold to another racer who has yes to run the bike.
So the fastest ever open wheel bike record set at Bonneville was done with Airtech front, middle and lower bodywork same as you saw us run in Australia.
See you in 2009..
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ronnie.... because the toy fairing is only avalible to people i like
kent
ummm.... do you like ME Kent?! (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/batting_eyelashes.gif)
:-D
Deb
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arr`huh,, point taken about the fastest sit on record 8-),, but, we are not seeing the complete package of charlie toy bodywork on the "fast" bikes, with the exception of steve knecums, and larry fostells bikes, which i am presuming have toy, or a close copy of the toy bodywork...
i like most know little about the magic of aerodynamics,,
i would like to raise the observation,,, do different bodyshapes (aero)work more efficiently at differing speeds?,, jason says he feels that the charlie toy package is good for 10+mph, but at what speed range 180,190,200?,
what was the "target speed" mister toy had in mind when he designed it all those years ago?.
obviously the toy bodys work below 200mph, but that dose not mean that thay have the same positive efficiency at speeds around 250mph,,,
comments gentleman :-)
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A shape that doesn't work at 50, won't work better at 150, or 250.
Like most things, a lot of people preach something else, but you should only use what works the best.
A quite well known race bike builder would test the effectiveness of the streamlining package by repeatedly rolling a dead motored bike down the same hill , the same distance, and accurately record the speed at end of a run that was only about 10% of the target speed .
Each time he made a slight change, he would record the results that translated into a lot of wins.
It was taken as seriously as any dyno power development that anybody ever spent a lot of time with.
It provided real world results, unlike the theoretical results from a wind tunnel that still must translate to ride-ability.
Can Am , for 1 , found that out by being able to separate wind tunnel
data from the final result. :wink:
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A quite well known race bike builder would test the effectiveness of the streamlining package by repeatedly rolling a dead motored bike down the same hill , the same distance, and accurately record the speed at end of a run that was only about 10% of the target speed .
Jack, who was it? I remember reading about this person in one of Kent's books on land speed motorcycles, but I can't remember the persons name.
Scott
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in 2006 Jim Owen was going to test the Toy body against the stock Kawasaki fairing on his ZX12R. He's got the M/PS/F record at 219.555, so qualifies as a "fast" bike. But -- the rule change got him. He runs stock bodywork and therefore in M/PS, but the Toy body would have put him in A/PS, and the rules don't allow changing from M to A during the same year. So -- he couldn't do it.
He was all set with brackets and mounts and such so he could make a quick change from one body to the other, and was at WoS so he wouldn't have to wait too long in line between runs -- but to no avail. Too bad -- it would have been the most realistic test so far.
Yeah, I know, I know -- he should go to Bub's where he'd be allowed to do the swap. His budget doesn't allow more than one trip to the Salt each year (if that), and he enjoys WoS over the other events, and that's that.
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muuuuuuzzzzzyyyyyy
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ronnie.... because the toy fairing is only avalible to people i like
kent
I love it when the gods speak!
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desired speed really doesnt play a factor in how i design a fairing .... i feel a good fairing will help by 5 to 10%.... look at all the open resords vs the p/s records.... check all displacements....youll see about a 5 to 10% difference in speed.... so Jason feels 10mph on his yamaha at close to 200mph that equates to about 5%.... if someone feels they can design, build, or buy something better.... go ahead..... acording to my math it will take an aditional 76hp to get the same 10mph my fairing will get ya
kent
ps staytee.. brining up bad blood between me and a couple of my ex employees wont score ya any points.... wasnt it you that wanted to buy a toy setup a couple of years ago? good luck to ya...
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in 2006 Jim Owen was going to test the Toy body against the stock Kawasaki fairing on his ZX12R. He's got the M/PS/F record at 219.555, so qualifies as a "fast" bike. But -- the rule change got him. He runs stock bodywork and therefore in M/PS, but the Toy body would have put him in A/PS, and the rules don't allow changing from M to A during the same year. So -- he couldn't do it.
He was all set with brackets and mounts and such so he could make a quick change from one body to the other, and was at WoS so he wouldn't have to wait too long in line between runs -- but to no avail. Too bad -- it would have been the most realistic test so far.
Yeah, I know, I know -- he should go to Bub's where he'd be allowed to do the swap. His budget doesn't allow more than one trip to the Salt each year (if that), and he enjoys WoS over the other events, and that's that.
No he didn't need to go to Bubs, he just needed to read the rule book better. You can run a Toy fairing in MPS... Running a Stock fairing allows you to exceed the height and placement rules... 8-)
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Bob, you know -- you might just be right. Maybe I'm substituting my own hazy thoughts for what happened. Maybe the story was that he ran out of time -- the weather went away. Yeah, well, whatever -- I don't have the stock bodywork for my 12R anymore so I can't do it.
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Study the fastest ones, there is going to be a test. :-D
OBTW: Toy sells used cars in Arizona , but is a student of the art.
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I really believe the orginal toy body was the best.
Kent's bodies of the Toy Design is the closest available to the original. And I must say I do love the bodywork. There are problems with it on short wheel base bikes (my opinion and tested results)
I still think it would work best on longer wheel base bikes as originally intended... On Charlies Bike...
Hell he went close to 230 mph with a air cooled 1350cc (under that even I think it was 1200 some cc's), draw thru turbo setup on alcohol. damn fast for the year and what he ran with....
jon
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There are many using the bodywork.
A few that I dont have a picture of at the moment is Royce McClinton (Sp???) and Wink Ellar all white version.
the first picture (green bike) is the Original Toy body work. This version in picture was after some hacking of the front fender by Charlie on the salt when he had some handling issues.
jon
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and More.
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I have always had handling problems with the bike. of course I have only gone the speeds I have with this body work.
I have changed a few things other then the body work and it still persits.
I have made some pretty major changes to the bike but was never able to get back on the salt in 07 to test the changes out.
I made fork and shock changes, different steering stabalizer and mounting system and modified the body work. I have no clue what these will do to me, if I crash I guess I know I went the wrong way with it.
However there are many who use the bodywork and go much faster then I do. without changing anything. I think Im just dummer then the average person.
Here are some of the changes I did, I have some strong recommendations that I am going the wrong way, but that is what I love about the sport, I can do what I want and i will always think im doing the right thing until I prove to myself I was wrong.
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Here are the rest
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Please tell me about the tail section of your bike and what you thoughts were when you made the change.
Thanks for the pix,
Scott
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my toy bodied r1 ran:
197mph unfaired on fuel with toy tail
216mph faired on fuel with toy front and rear fairing
206mph on fuel stock yamaha bodywork.
the front toy body is worth 19mph over unfaired. cheap mph for sure!
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kent , i live wayyyy down here, half a world away from you and your orginization, i wouldn`t have a clue who worked for you, and if my observations have dragged up bad blood, well im sorry but it surely was not my intention to do that,,, that said, as a member of this forum i can ask what i like, and as you know lsr is new to australia, so there is a lot for us to learn,,,, now the reason i posted my observation, is that i have started on a new project, with the view to running the complete toy package, and wanted to find out more about it... i wasnt going to post till latter in the year, but since isiahstites had bought the subject up, i went with it,, i am coming over to la in november for the nhra finals, whilst there i was planning on dropping in and discussing my project with you :-)
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ps staytee.. brining up bad blood between me and a couple of my ex employees wont score ya any points.... wasnt it you that wanted to buy a toy setup a couple of years ago? good luck to ya...
Kent, That was me who wanted a toy fairing not Stay'tee , best let sleeping dogs lie
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brining up bad blood between me and a couple of my ex employees wont score ya any points.... wasnt it you that wanted to buy a toy setup a couple of years ago? good luck to ya...
Are you loosing track of who all you've pissed off Kent?
A list "keeps your enemies closer", but a well phrased public statement or two can bring that list up to date by the "immediatte show of hands" it causes. :wink:
Just trying to help, I hate to see you accidentally trick yourself into making money off someone you don't like :roll:
Todd
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Hopefully I will have some answers in May when my bike goes in the A2 wind tunnel. I bought the Toy replica from Kent because I did and still do think it is the best mass produced aero body. Nice thick glass Airtech uses and how do I know? Because I had to hack it for inspection after it had set records the previous year. :x The first year (2003) it effortlessly went over 250 in each mile on seperate runs. Due to malfunctioning electronics the engine was only giving about half of it's total power. It has not handled well anytime since and I have exacerbated the problem with more ballast. Returning to it's original form still did not solve the problem. The bike was designed and built for the bodywork (77" WB) unlike the stock frames everyone else uses. No one said this stuff is easy but we will keep trying. That is the one thing about being old, stubborn is along for the ride. :lol:
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The wise will eventually learn how he got to be so old and so fast, but not before they try their wings and do a couple of face plants. :wink:
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Todd... i dont know how many i've pissed off but i damn sure remember who is on my list... Its not about the money todd... never has and never will be....
And yes, i absolutely remember the dig you had thrown at me gary... You probably dont know it, but yes it was Ronnie who emailed and PM'd me about a toy fairing... ya see he wanted to smack gary down and go faster than him, he didnt have very kind things to say about gary so i offered him a deal... do ya remember those emails Ronnie? do ya want me to post 'em to refresh your memory... I dont know how you guys say it down under but up here it goes somethin like this.... no shirt, no shoes, no service..... chalk up another one
Jon, "McClintock"
kent
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hmmm.... so Kent, does the fact that you didn't answer me infer that I'm on the naughty list or the nice list...... (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/batting_eyelashes.gif)
...and how come you answer Todd & not me when he's clearly, publically stated in no uncertain terms that he does NOT love you!? :-D
maybe your fairing was on my list of future parts as I strive to single handedly take over the land racing world on my little bike! What's a girl to do?
Deb :evil:
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Be patient with him, he is just a (kid) guy.
That goes for both of them. :-D
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kent, i post an innocent question on here, the comments recieved by everyone have been very informative, thankyou,, however your response has left me gobsmacked, by all means, pm, my said comments concerning gary to him and me, (in my words, not your interpertations).
if you have a problem with aussies thats your problem, i have no and never have had a problem with gary, and until now, you, as we say in australia "build a bridge, get over it". :-)..
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deb i love the way ya wink at me...you can get on my naughty list any time.... its my pissed off list ya wanna avoid.... your one of my favorites....
kr
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Todd... i dont know how many i've pissed off but i damn sure remember who is on my list... Its not about the money todd... never has and never will be....
And yes, i absolutely remember the dig you had thrown at me gary... You probably dont know it, but yes it was Ronnie who emailed and PM'd me about a toy fairing... ya see he wanted to smack gary down and go faster than him, he didnt have very kind things to say about gary so i offered him a deal... do ya remember those emails Ronnie? do ya want me to post 'em to refresh your memory... I dont know how you guys say it down under but up here it goes somethin like this.... no shirt, no shoes, no service..... chalk up another one
Jon, "McClintock"
kent
Ronnie you bad boy Im shattered :-D Oh and Kent we Aussies do have a saying for blokes that place their mouths into gear before their brains :-P :-D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/hawkwind/LMP.jpg)
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larry, i found it interesting to read your comment, while i was attending the bub meeting last year, i was told that the charlie toy body was excellent if you wanted to run up to 200,210mph, however thay said that handleing problems were experienced once you started going faster,, both yourself and john n have stated on this thread that you have ran very high speeds "without problems",,, that says a lot i recon,, problems can be due to any number of things..
i wasnt aware that the bodys were built for a 77" wb, the calculations for my new bike had come out at 74", i wasnt happy with that and was considering going to 78", close :-)
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your such a sweet talkin devil gary..... nope you'll never talk me into selling you a set....
love ya
kent
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Thats ok Kent ,I now make my own junk :-D,and its you I have to thank :-D see ya on the salt some time and Ill shout ya a beer
Gary
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i'll drink all the beer you can bring....oops wait.... i guess i really shouldnt say they to an ausi..... there i go shootin my fingers off before i think again.....
k
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150220657423&rd=1
XR 750 fairing, more of Kents stuff out there.
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I always wonder why people want there money within 3 days but are going to possibly take up to 14 days for shipping and handling?
I always write in my auctions that once funds are received items will ship the following buisness day??
Scott
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Me to lets find out sheri buchta
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Q: why is it that you require payment within 3 days but shipping and handleing will take up to 14 days imtoots (sheri buc----) Mar-08-08
A: hi imtoots2.its tony. to answer your question. we ask that you respond with your payment type with in 3-days ,so now that took 3-days . then you will need to send the payment -say its through the mail, ok that took 5-days .now we are at 8-days if its a money order it takes 3or 4 days to clear .we are now at 14 days .then we have to package the parts in boxs then ship them ,that could take 3-10 days . anything else that you need to know .this is standard ebay and payment -shipping procedure .we just try to make shur that there is some time lines so both partys will understand the transaction takes time.knowing you have 356 ebay transactions, you already knew that.this sis a grat deal .happy bidding . tony
hhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm sheri buchta
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Thats BS! How about once payment is received and cleared items will ship instead of it may take 3-10 days to pack everything after we receive your payment.
Scott
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Scott, I'm thinkin he means, as well as packaging, the shipping could take 3 to 10 days. They gotta stop and feed the horses!!! :evil: That's still kinda long for shipping. Hell, for me lately guys are taking 3 days to pay with paypal... :?