Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: 1 fast evo 2 on February 26, 2008, 11:31:59 AM
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Hello to everyone, I quess it is about time to officially introduce myself. My name is Mike Reichen and even though I haven't posted here I do read this forum almost every day and it seems like I already know alot of you. I learn more and more everyday by reading what you have done and talkabout/discuss.
I believe I have a good start to knowing what's going on by having read this forum for quite awhile and now I would like to start asking some questions of you the people who probably have the answers I need.
My first question is related to tires, I would like as many opinions as possible to help me decide which tires would be best for my pile eer em racecar.
The car is a mitsubishi evo 2 and it is powered by a turbocharged 4 cyl that makes in the neighborhood of 900 all wheel hp, it is a 5 speed, it will weigh about 2900 lbs without adding any weight.
I have been drag racing this car for two years and last year I finally started land speed racing in small steps(I ran several standing mile races) and now I have decided that I need to get to the salt, and yes I know there is no turning back. The tires will need to be between 26-28 inches tall to work with my gearing and my hoped for speed of 230-240 mph (I know nothing goes as planned on the salt and that it is a whole nother world out there but that is still my goal).
So I would like to answer any questions you need answered to help me decide which tires I need.
Nice to finally say hi !
Sorry the post was so long.
Mile Reichen
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Welcome, Goodyear makes both a 26 and 28 inch LSR tire rated at 300 mph @ 1750# per tire. Cost around $350 each. Call Competition Tire at (610) 375-6191 or Carrol Shelby Ent. in Las Vegas. They are the two authorized Goodyear racing tire distributors....................
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Welcome Mike.
Follow Mr. Drury's advice and you'll be fine. I think you're back east so Competition Tire might be the most local but I'll throw you Shelby's #702-430-5160 in case you need it.
Good Luck in your endeavors
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............Follow Mr. Drury's advice and you'll be fine.........
......... except you are going to have to open your wallet a little more than Bob did. I think they are a little over $400 now, but still what you need. I would think seriously about 1 or two extra for the rear. I have a feeling that your turbo motor comes on strong when it comes on and you could possible blister a tire if you weren't careful. Also as we found out there are other ways to ruin a tire even when you aren't at the race track :cry:.
Welcome and it sounds like a neat car and should go real fast. Are you going to detune it at all for the longer track or do you feel that it will live for 5 miles the way it is??
c ya,
Sum
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Hello Mike
I too am going to be in a similar boat next year with my AWD partial because of you and Andrew B. I was under the impression that you didn't want to take the Evo to the salt and you were going to put together something else that was a little more slick?
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/Goodyear/GY2.shtml#LAND%20SPEED
There is a link with some tire size and price information. I'd be interested in what kind of wheels you would be going with too.
Good Luck!
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how fast did the car run in the 1/4 mile willie buchta
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Was that you that brought the white Evo out to the april meet at Maxton last year???
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Sorry it took so long for me to reply guys but I have been having a real hard time getting onto the site.
Thanks for all of the replys so quick.
Yes I am in the chicago area so I will call competition tire , thanks for the number.
Do all of you feel that I will need the goodyears ? I thought there was another brand that was a possibility ?
Sumner - Ya she does come on pretty hard and by Bonnevile the plan is to have a different turbo on the car and I don't know how it will come on, probably even harder !!
And yes It will probably be turned all the way down until I need the extra power latter on, I will also bring my original turbo with incase the other one doesn't work out.
I was worried about blistering the tires do you think it will happen ?
I don't think that the car will need the whole 5 miles, I'm thinking 3-4 but I quess we will see when we get there.
G Borman- I was planning to build my talon for b-ville but I decided not to for this year as people are just starting to know this car. I was also worried about the salt getting in everything on this car but it really needs a paint job anyway so I figure after this season I will take it apart and have the whole car acid dipped and repainted.
I have talked to marsh wheels about a set of rims, what do youguys think of this company(good - bad) ?
Willie so far in the middle of last year the car was running 8.90's at almost 160 mph and this was at about 825 awhp with a somewhat soft launch as the car will blow the rear diff. to peices if it hooks to good. I think it would have run 8.60 @ 163 mph or so with full boost and a hard launch.
Revolutionary- yes that was me last year at Maxton with the whole parachute debacle, and yes that problem has been taken care of.
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Tires: yes you need the Goodyears. M/T is supposed to be making a new batch of 24.5x16 and 26x18 tires soon, but they are around $760 apiece, and only have around .040 of rubber on them. The 300 mph Goodyears have a ton of tread on them and should last quite a while...................... None of the drag race "front runner" type tires which include Moroso, Goodyear, M/T and Hoosier are recommended unless the car is light, such as a six cylinder roadster or M/C liner................
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Oh ok that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
Thanks alot bob !
Does anybody have any other tips orbits of wisdom. I am trying to get everything as sorted as I can before showing up and having no clue as to what's going on and not being able to race, or just getting started and something going wrong that could have been easily avoided.
It's a long way back to Chicago.
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Read the rule book at least 99 times. I keep mine by my chair in the living room so when I think of something I just pick up the rule book and check it out, before I lose the thought. :-D
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Fred, Slim keeps his by the throne, I keep mine next to this damn computer so I can try to figure out what Dolan has just posted............... :-D
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...............I was worried about blistering the tires do you think it will happen ?
I don't think that the car will need the whole 5 miles, I'm thinking 3-4 but I quess we will see when we get there..............
You will only blister them if you spin them :-). If I was you and you can make it happen I would try and take an extra 500 lbs. with you that you have already made mounts for and use it if needed. Mount it centrally on the car to keep something like a 50/50 weight distribution. I'm not familiar with the car, is it still in it's all wheel drive configuration?? If so that could change things. If you can put down an honest 800 hp for the run especially at the big end you probably will run in the 230-240 mph range and that might be a little conservative. I don't think I saw what class your are thinking of. If it is a class that allows a spoiler and spill plates take advantage of that and design the spoiler in such a way that you can make the spill plates as large as the rules allow and I would suggest a flat spoiler to begin with anyway.
.............................I have talked to marsh wheels about a set of rims, what do you guys think of this company(good - bad) ?.......................
We have used Marsh Wheels on Hooley's Stude with no problems and I have them on my lakester, but it hasn't turned a wheel yet :cry:. They were good to work with and very reasonably priced. For those that might be interested I have a link to them on my links page..................
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillelinks.htm
................ look under "Racing Products and Services" ........... then "WHEELS and TIRES",
Sum
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I'm also posting in For sale section, but couldn't resist
LSR tires
M/T 24.5 X 7.50 -16
3 tires
Not mounted
Stored in Black plastic bags in the basement.
Purchased July 07.
Protected like my own child.
Price: Just what I paid. 720 each plus shipping.
3 must remain together. You gotta have a spare......
Rick Byrnes
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Fred & Bob- I have an 07 rule book and it is either next to the computer or the throne so I have that part covered.
Sumner-Yes the car is still awd
As far as horse power the car is going to be developed a little more this year but I know it will run a conservative 800-900 hp at the wheels on the long track, at the mile events we are going to deffinatly run quite a bit more hp this year ( at least that is the plan).
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230-240 MPH huh ??
That is like 9275 to 9680 RPM (@ ZERO slip) with a 28.0" tire and the EVOII drive train. I don't know too many full blown drag racers that run more than about 8700 RPM... and that was to just get thru the beams at the big end of the 1320 in fourth gear.
I also agree with Sum... you'll probably need to add some weight and you will need to take it to the big end. So I would plan to take it to the long course... and plan to take it to the 5th - 6th mile.
You have definately peaked my curiosity.
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230-240 MPH huh ??
That is like 9275 to 9680 RPM (@ ZERO slip) with a 28.0" tire and the EVOII drive train. I don't know too many full blown drag racers that run more than about 8700 RPM... and that was to just get thru the beams at the big end of the 1320 in fourth gear.
I also agree with Sum... you'll probably need to add some weight and you will need to take it to the big end. So I would plan to take it to the long course... and plan to take it to the 5th - 6th mile.
You have definitely peaked my curiosity.
Yep, I made the bad assumption he could gear it, but maybe that might be the limiting factor. We've run 243 with less HP probably than he has and I have a feeling his CdA might be better than ours. 5 miles even with the right gearing can be a long time :cry:, even when you are going fast,
Sum
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I also agree with Sum... you'll probably need to add some weight and you will need to take it to the big end. So I would plan to take it to the long course... and plan to take it to the 5th - 6th mile.
You have definately peaked my curiosity.
You mean from the 4-5 mile don't you? If you power from the 5-6 I think the timer might get testy...Assuming an SCTA event.
:)
Jon
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I also agree with Sum... you'll probably need to add some weight and you will need to take it to the big end. So I would plan to take it to the long course... and plan to take it to the 5th - 6th mile.
You have definately peaked my curiosity.
You mean from the 4-5 mile don't you? If you power from the 5-6 I think the timer might get testy...Assuming an SCTA event.
:)
Jon
I guess I should have clairified that a little better... I meant driving it out to and dropping the laundry at the 5-6. Considering 230-240 MPH within the 3-4 with the available HP and chassis weight is a little aggressive... I would think. :-D
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..................Considering 230-240 MPH within the 3-4 with the available HP and chassis weight is a little aggressive... I would think. :-D
Not necessarily, in 2004 #484 the Lindsley Leggitt B/BFALT (Altered Coupe) ran 307.341 mph and set the record at that in the first measured mile (2-3) and then coasted down to the 5 mile. Now that is impressive, but with all-wheel drive 1 fast evo 2 (what is your name anyway??) might not need that much more weight and if he can gear it right it might be a good idea to make a drag race out of it to the 3 and see how that works. It would make it easier on the motor.
I still can't believe 307 with a door slammer in the first mile :-o . I'd like a picture of #484 to put on my site if anyone has one,
Sum
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...if he can gear it right it might be a good idea to make a drag race out of it to the 3 and see how that works. It would make it easier on the motor.
That's just it... the EVOII is unbelievably limited to final ratios of 5.xx
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You guys are all coming up with great questions and I really apprecieate the help.
Sorry about not posting my name I thought that I had but anyway my name is MIKE REICHEN .
Chicane -in the DSM drag community even stroker motors are turned to 9000 rpm
my car is regularly spun to over 10,000 rpm. The car see's over 9,000 rpm in 4 th gear on the drag strip(this is with short slicks)-when racing the standing mile races last year I was pulling 9,200-9,400 rpm in thestock 5 th gear with 25" tall tires. For this season I'm changing the 5 th gear (for the mile races) and at B-ville I will have the 27" tall tires.
You are right about the fact that there are not many gears available and I will probably be rpm limited at bonneville, which is why I think it will be over by the 3 rd or 4 th mile. I also don't want to crank on the engine for that long.
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I'm sorry the tires I will be using are 27.8 inches before tire growth and the tires I run in the mile are 25.3 inches tall. So the tire diameter and an approx. 9 % taller 5 th gear should help with the rpm problem, if I run out of gear with this set up I will be one happy camper. I'll go do the math and figure the theoretical speed without slipage.
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..................Considering 230-240 MPH within the 3-4 with the available HP and chassis weight is a little aggressive... I would think. :-D
Not necessarily, in 2004 #484 the Lindsley Leggitt B/BFALT (Altered Coupe) ran 307.341 mph and set the record at that in the first measured mile (2-3) and then coasted down to the 5 mile. Now that is impressive, but with all-wheel drive 1 fast evo 2 (what is your name anyway??) might not need that much more weight and if he can gear it right it might be a good idea to make a drag race out of it to the 3 and see how that works. It would make it easier on the motor.
I still can't believe 307 with a door slammer in the first mile :-o . I'd like a picture of #484 to put on my site if anyone has one,
Sum
Sumner I can't believe you don't have a picture of the baddest doorslammer ever? And the 307 is an average, do you know what his fastest speed is?
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I'm sorry the tires I will be using are 27.8 inches before tire growth and the tires I run in the mile are 25.3 inches tall. So the tire diameter and an approx. 9 % taller 5th gear should help with the rpm problem, if I run out of gear with this set up I will be one happy camper. I'll go do the math and figure the theoretical speed without slippage.
I have some spreadsheets that are easy to plug that data into on my site. They also will tell you the rpm drop on your shifts between all the gears. There are 3, 4, 5 and 6 speed ones there for cars and 4, 5 and 6 speed ones for Bikes. The bike ones also let you input primary gearing and all transmission gears plus sprocket gear and will also show you rpm drop on your shifts at any speed.
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html
Also the "Drag Force-HP-Thrust-Weight" one would maybe help you figure if you have enough weight in the car. If they don't make sense post or PM me.
On the name thing I'm not good on them, but when I can remember and if I see you in person I would rather say "hi Mike" instead of "hi 1 fast evo 2" :-),
Sum
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Sumner I can't believe you don't have a picture of the baddest doorslammer ever? And the 307 is an average, do you know what his fastest speed is?
I can't believe I don't have a picture either :cry:, don't rub it in :lol:, find me one 8-).
I don't know what his fastest time was and for some reason there is no 2 /14 time on that run although it would have probably been slower than the 307, but with it I could probably get close on the exit speed at the end of the 3. I'll bet it was up around 318-319. I've seen the video of the run and it is unbelievable. I was there also, but don't remember seeing the run. On the video I can hear the timer faintly (I think it was Glen) announce the speed and I kept replaying it to see if what I heard was right as I couldn't belive the 300+ at the 3 was right, so I found the meet results and yep it was right. He had slowed all the way down to 282 by the end of the 4 (wish we could slow down like that 8-) ).
c ya,
Sum
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I'm 90% sure he went 331 and I believe he broke a front spindle which ended his year. Haven't heard of him running the car since. :-o
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Sum- It's funny that you mentioned that because that is where I was just at(on your website, oh and thank you very much the website is an awesome utility. You have an envelope on its way from me).
By the calc. on the spread sheet I come up with these # 's
With very reliable rpm limit of 9,500 rpm I come up with:
stock 5th gear and short tires= 218 mph
taller 5th and short tires= 238 mph
taller 5th and 27.8" tires=261 mph
So unless I have an awfull lot of wheel spin I should have enough gear.
And if I don't have enough gear there is always more rpm on the last runs.
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Les Leggit teched me in last year and said that the Leggits Lindsley deal was done and he had the motor back which is now in the roadster that Dave Davenport will drive...............
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I'm sorry the tires I will be using are 27.8 inches before tire growth and the tires I run in the mile are 25.3 inches tall. So the tire diameter and an approx. 9 % taller 5 th gear should help with the rpm problem, if I run out of gear with this set up I will be one happy camper. I'll go do the math and figure the theoretical speed without slipage.
What size foot print are you going to run?
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Bvilercr- I am planning to run the 4.5 " width tire what doyou folk think ?
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Sum- It's funny that you mentioned that because that is where I was just at(on your website, oh and thank you very much the website is an awesome utility. You have an envelope on its way from me).
By the calc. on the spread sheet I come up with these # 's
With very reliable rpm limit of 9,500 rpm I come up with:
stock 5th gear and short tires= 218 mph
taller 5th and short tires= 238 mph
taller 5th and 27.8" tires=261 mph
So unless I have an awful lot of wheel spin I should have enough gear.
And if I don't have enough gear there is always more rpm on the last runs.
What are your gear ratios for each gear?? How much drop going into 5th?? Not dropping out of the power band?? So can you change 5th, but not the others??
I personally would keep the 4-5 rpm drop as little as possible and try and work with the tire size. We now have a 7% overdrive going from 3rd ( 1 to 1) into 4th (.93) and really like that at the moment. If you listen to one of the runs from this year on You Tube about the 2 you can hear the 3-4 shift and the rpm only drops about 500. We are geared like this for two reasons right now. Our cam probably maxes out around 7400-7500. When we ran 241 in '06 with less boost it would only pull 7070 rpm. We ran more boost last year and ran 243, but by that day the track was way bad and Hooley had way less throttle (according to the data) than when we ran 241. We are trying to run 250+ for his AA lic. and now if the motor wants to pull 7400 we will get there in 3rd. If it likes the 7000 rpm we will get there in 4th. So we have some options, but need more weight or a better track than we had at the end of the week last year.
c ya,
Sum
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And the 307 is an average, do you know what his fastest speed is?
[/quote]
Fastest mile was 333.
Dave Davidson (not Davenport) will be the driver of the new roadster, also looking for 3+
Remember, there can only be one 1st.....
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Sumner-I am very limited on gear choices with this car. I have the tallest final drive that I can find in the car and there are only 2 usable 5th gears(I'll be bring both with as it is very easy to change 5th gear, we can do it with the trans. still in the car).
There are 1 or 2 other 5th gears available but they make the gear split too great. As it is whem I shift from 4th to fifth it will drop down to approx. 7,200-7,300 rpm which is right at the torque peak with the smaller turbo that I had last year. I will probably also be bringing at least 2 different turbo with and try to balance the cars performance with them also. I will probably start out with the smallest one !
I would like it if I could get a set of tires that would be like 26.5" tall but oh well.
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Oh ya I almost forgot, several people mention adding weight to the car. By running the numbers it doesn't look like it will need any but I want to bring it with just incase and I would like to know where is the best place to pick up the lead.
I don't know if this is in the right place, if it's not could someone move it please.
Thanks
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And the 307 is an average, do you know what his fastest speed is?
Fastest mile was 333.
Dave Davidson (not Davenport) will be the driver of the new roadster, also looking for 3+
Remember, there can only be one 1st.....
[/quote]
I knew I was close, thanks for the correction. :-D
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Bvilercr- I am planning to run the 4.5 " width tire what doyou folk think ?
The choice is yours. We have run over 288 with a 10 inch foot print using Goodyears. A lot of people fear the large foot print, we do not.
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I believe that a lot of wheelspin problems at speed is caused by airodynamic lift, it has been proven that speeds around 160 mph the suspension will go into droop with less weight on the tires. Jim Hall ' Chaparral' figered this out around 1965 resulting in the spoiler then the adjustable spoiler while running,then the wing and adjustable wing. I wonder if we will ever catch up to that 1960's tech?
The formula 1 cars run 60-65% Rear weight and so do we on the 222 car, 288mph+ coupe. Rear engine lakesters, dragsters and funny cars probably have more.
JL222
Here is a good indication about weight ratios.
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Sumner-I am very limited on gear choices with this car. I have the tallest final drive that I can find in the car and there are only 2 usable 5th gears(I'll be bring both with as it is very easy to change 5th gear, we can do it with the trans. still in the car).
There are 1 or 2 other 5th gears available but they make the gear split too great. As it is when I shift from 4th to fifth it will drop down to approx. 7,200-7,300 rpm which is right at the torque peak with the smaller turbo that I had last year. I will probably also be bringing at least 2 different turbo with and try to balance the cars performance with them also. I will probably start out with the smallest one !
I would like it if I could get a set of tires that would be like 26.5" tall but oh well.
One thing you have going for you with the turbo and gear split is they like a load.
If you are going to run Speed Week don't forget the limited runs when thinking about switching things around. I would suggest going with what you think might be the most middle of the road package that you could get more or less aggressive with if needed. If you decide on a class I would try and maximize to run say 5 mph over the record unless the record is really soft. Try not and get too greedy, you can do that after you own the record :-). The other meets are also somewhat limited as they don't run as many days and often "weather out" and come up short.
Is the motor still a G motor or bored/stroked?? and a F motor. The G comp coupe, altered coupe and blown gas coupe all look very doable and most of those in the fuel classes look the same. If you are now F then I would look at the blown gas coupe class and maybe forgo the other two for now.
I think your weight might be fine with the all wheel drive, but you could be right on the edge, so taking some is a good plan. Is the weight now about 50/50?? GH is collecting wheel weights at a couple tire places that he will melt down I believe. Personally I'm not crazy about messing with molten metals. I think Speed Way sell lead weight and if you still can't find any Phil (RustyT) on here bought some and maybe he will post or I could check with him and let you know.
c ya,
Sum
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short.
GH is collecting wheel weights at a couple tire places that he will melt down I believe. Personally I'm not crazy about messing with molten metals.
Wheel weights are usually the easiest and cheapest way to get lead, unless you have a big scrap metals place that you can buy it in bulk.
Working with molten metals deserves all of the respect that one might think it does, and is well worth reading up on safety precautions before doing so! The home built boat guys have lots of information on this, so Google is your friend.
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The motor at this time is an F motor at .020 over but I will put together a G motor for b-ville which is a .010 overbore.
Going with a middle of the road setup is what I was leaning towards thanks for backing that up with your opinion. I'll probably go with the 5th gear that's in it now with the taller tires and also the medium turbo that I have on the car right now(this turbo hasn't been on the dyno yet but it will be before I go to Maxton in april) but I am expecting a little over 1,000 awhp at max output, which I will not run at b-ville. I have driven the car with this turbo and it is very lively(it gets on boost about as fast as the smaller turbo I was running).
I don't remember if I mentioned it but I am taking the car to the A-2 wind tunnel on the way to Maxton in the spring to get some numbers and make sure the car is as stable and safe as possible. I wouldn't mind if we pick up some speed which is almost for sure considering I am driving a 4-door box.
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..........hasn't been on the dyno yet but it will be before I go to Maxton in april)..........
I think you are taking a realistic approach to this and wish you good luck. You going to be at Maxton in May?? I'm planning on being there then and would like to see the car and meet you along with a lot of others :-),
Sum
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10k huh ?? Well... I guess you have that aspect taken care of. :-D WOW... that has got to be a real zinger and I can understand why you would not want to buzz it too long after the flying mile.
...but I want to bring it with just incase and I would like to know where is the best place to pick up the lead.
BSR Products sells bricks of lead (approx 1x2.5x?? 22# or 2.5x3.5x?? 35# + 47#... and even 1/8x30x30 47# sheet). In a last ditch effort... a scuba diving shop will also have a good assortment of shapes and gross weights available. They are even friendly enough to drill holes thru or mounting.
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4-wheel drive is limited to Production and Special Construction (Rule 2.P, page 22 of 2008 Rule Book). All-wheel drive is 4-wheel drive as far as SCTA is concerned. If the wheels are driving, they're driving. (At least that's my take on the rules.)
4-wheel drive is not allowed in Gas, Altered or Comp. classes.