Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: racergeo on December 19, 2007, 01:52:45 AM
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I just picked up an issue of DRIVE! magazine (avalible for free at some parts houses). It has an artical called NASCAR meets Bonneville. The story is about Russ Wicks breaking his own stock car world record with a speed of 244mph. It tells how he's in the Guiness World records and how he returned the record to Dodge.But interestingly at the end of the story he says " next summer I intend to break the world gasoline powered speed record which stands at 364 mph" It says he the preliminary design and a build team ready to go. "By using the latest in design and technology I intend to push the limits of speed and hope to one day hold both the outright land and water speed records."
In thinking about this car and the Moore-Hanna-Crietz car and a few others being built, it may renew the rivalries that we all miss. With retirements and tragic deaths of some of the greatest of all LSRacers only the Burkand 411 can currently run the big numbers. But I believe the Burkland car is ultimate in that it uses two engines in a super small package that can hardly be rivaled in CD, make use of super chargers so can make power regardless of CA and has 4WD, and if challenged coud put on of those Garlets type wings like was on the Joe Laws car. (super low drag with big down force) and they still allow fast accelleration because down force comes at higher speeds. On a limited length track would traction trump a little drag? At only 40% throttle what would that car do if it were opened up? I think 500 is very possible and that would present quite the challange to the other contenders. It would sure be fun to watch and would for sure be worthy of a documentry on the Speed channel!!
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Maybe he does hope to one day hold both the outright land and water speed records. and maybe he does have an idea to do so.....Its his dream, hopefully for him if he can back his mouth up.... I want to go to the moon.!... My plan is to piss off as many people as i can so they will all chip in and send me there.....anyone interested can send there donations to Romero....Oh by the way Marlo is building quite a machine.
Kent
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REMARKABLE !
I am suitably impressed with the "NASCAR World Record" and the listing in the Guinness Book is a real feat.
Everybody starts at the bottom , but they usually don't start off yelling. :roll:
Wanna buy a shirt ?
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.......................I want to go to the moon.!... My plan is to piss off as many people as i can so they will all chip in and send me there.....anyone interested can send there donations to Romero...............
The money is in the mail :evil:. Oh BTW thanks for the help the other day and don't leave until I have all of my questions answered 8-),
Sum
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(http://www.deskeng.com/Media/speed3.jpg)
The team's new 30-foot streamliner, complete with Wicks-sized humanoid, is a work in progress aimed at breaking the gasoline-powered world speed record of 364 mph. The team is hoping for 400 mph.
Autodesk has bottomless pockets, so money shouldn't be a problem. His biggest accomplishment so far is self-promotion.
Claiming the world's fastest propeller driven boat at 205 is interesting considering blown fuel hydros are over 250.
I seem to notice a trend. Every wanabee LSR guy, credits or not, is going to break the record in less than a year from conception. The salt will tell.
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Hey guys what happened to us encouraging people on their speed quests. You guys have been doing it for me and I hope to break someones record some day with my own car and don't mind saying so.
Reading the NASCAR account...........
http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaaeee.htm
I don't see much bragging and in fact they were very careful to tell how some of their speeds where in an actual NASCAR configuration and some runs weren't. They also mention their lows and respect for setting a record on the salt.
Here is Russ's site, judge for yourself if he has been able to accomplish some of his goals:
http://www.russwicks.com/
Personally I think the streamliner looks pretty good and their current goal is to break the 364 mph "gas" record. Good luck to them and good luck to the guys that have Harold's car in getting it back.
c ya,
Sum
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Hey guys what happened to us encouraging people on their speed quests. You guys have been doing it for me and I hope to break someones record some day with my own car and don't mind saying so.
It's just a little carry over from standard nascar bashing....
As you get closer to taking someones record, I may encourage you less... :| OK, just kidding :-D now get back to work.
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dIdn't mean to snub Marlo and Les as being challengers but read they were just going to test at BV and actually race for record at Lake Gardainer in Au. The car speaks for its self and Les Davenport is a many times championship winning alcohol funnycar and dragster tuner. And his specialty is the very PSI blower they are using. That car is NO BRAG! I would love to see it go all out at BV. I just think its great to see new interest in the unlimited class'. I still say it would be cool to let all the fast cars come out on early AM salt and run their big speeds.
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Your American racer Russ Wicks seems to bring out the worst in folk! But then there seems to be no middle ground with Russ (and I have yet to meet him) - many hate him.
The guy has a project plan and is very adept at getting success during each stage to promote his backers.
The unlimited hydro racers did not like him for using a 'spare' race boat to set a UIM propellor driven record over the kilometre. But until Team Budweiser tried the unlimited racers were not interested in speed records. Team Budweiser did not directly attack Russ's APBA/UIM record though. As to 250 mph race boats - possibly radar detected peak speeds on some water but never officially timed over a kilometre (or mile). What is the official speed over the kilo for an unlimited?
Then Russ chose to use a 'Nascar' on the salt flats and try to beat the speeds set by an earlier team _ at a time when Nascar "good old boys" & support folk seemed to be welcomed onto the salt. Once again the regular Nascar racers and race teams did not have any inclination to see how fast these cars could go when off the oval and running a straight line. Mixing 'species' it might have been but the speeds have now gone up and are being challenged by others it seems. Quite how the Guinness people could consider it as entry I do not know (Nascars are hardly an International vehicle). But it adds another speed related entry to that book and is useful to perpetuating speed record interest.
Now the guy steps up to a streamliner and this group starts to pick on him in his planned 'gasoline' car. At least for some he must be using the right 'species' now. I could become upset because only you Americans have a 'gasoline' record where as Internationally there is no difference in fuel type. But who is checking that Russ will be running a true gasoline of the correct type against an SCTA/BNI record? My guess is that he will join SCTA and run on the flats using your fuel (but what do I know as a Brit). If not then you may have grounds for complaints and the holder of the fastest gas record in the rule book can complain loudest. But lets wait and see.
I hope Russ does get the car built and running because once again it adds to the international publicity for record breaking worldwide.
Any chance that his critics are most upset because "Damn, I did not think of that. I wish I had thought of breaking that record"?
200mph records on land and water might in a few years be 300 mph on both media.
Malcolm
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Porkpie, I have asked about the NASCAR bashing, too. Boy did I get the treatment! And I'm not even a NASCAR fan at all anymore, at least - not since around the time Petty retired.
However - Mr. Wicks website is very much a promotional tool - he's definitely no humble "good ol' boy" out to kick a little butt. This guy wants to rule the world of speed! I pretty much expect that the next picture I see of him - he'll be wearing a cape and tights emblazoned with his name and a corporate logo.
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Sponsorship for LSR is very hard to find........so leave the guy alone.........if he can get a big $ sponser with a little BS and hipe.....more power to him.....in the long run it is good for the sport!!
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Porkpie, I have asked about the NASCAR bashing, too. Boy did I get the treatment! And I'm not even a NASCAR fan at all anymore, at least - not since around the time Petty retired.
What had my name to do in this request!......by the way I write myself Pork Pie......I'm not bashing someone...I'm simple write my opinion...and this very straight........
What ever you mean, Aircap, I followed this subject the last days.
As Malcolm wrote right....which gas record......
To Russ.....he understand to make publicity......and honestly you have to be stupid or got the guts or both together to sit in a hydroplane boat to set a world water speed record, especially if you never drove a boat fast before, so as Russ.
Other people done so before...they was not so lucky as him..........he survived......
From there on he got the opinion he can use this luck again......and tried for the absolute water speed record....very though thinking.......and this for some years now. Except that from time to time some "news" are on the website nothing happened. Instead of moving this project forward he went to salt and done some "promotion" records with the Nascar........could be that he found out that his idea on water was too tough.......
The concept for the boat looks not very successful for a attempt......
And now he likes to go for a gas record of 364 mph??????????? What kind of record. As Malcolm correctly wrote - FIA has no gas or fuel records like the American records of the SCTA, BNI or USFRA. What kind of record is it...
just another publicity gag........or another Guinness book of records on the side of a beer drinking record.....
And the racer, this is just a confentional racer, nothing new, nothing which can create a "Wow" effect. Saw better concepts of new racer the last years.
At last, we will see what Mr. Russ will do this time.......hope that this time it's more than using his luck or creating public bubbles.......
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"And now he likes to go for a gas record of 364 mph?? What kind of record. As Malcolm correctly wrote - FIA has no gas or fuel records like the American records of the SCTA, BNI or USFRA. What kind of record is it...
just another publicity gag........or another Guinness book of records on the side of a beer "
2007 rulebook, page 78 -
AA/GS Wooden/Vaughn E. Wooden 10/04 364.761
Malcom is always stuck on FIA records, it has been decided here that most don't give a fig about FIA.
DW
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Listing in the Guinness book looks pretty good, but you have to sell or drink a lot of beer first.
Proclamations like his run about 10 t0 1 against success. :roll:
NEXT ?
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I think the guy has been making to many left turns. A lot of top cars with tons of experience behind them will tell you how hard it is. Look at Terry Nish and all of the best equipment knows it ain't easy or cheap. :?
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I don't see much bragging
I am sure he will give his best shot at breaking the "gas" record, but it has a low possibility of happening in 2008. He no doubt will put together a team that can do it, but can and will are two different words.
Russ Wicks two accomplishments: The 205 record and the 244 "NASCAR" record. UIM record? His own website doesn't list any formal record or organization for the water record.
His bio lists motocross; with no wins, formula car; no wins, Indy car; testing, Unlimited hydroplane; testing, NHRA; school, NASCAR in quotes because there is no NASCAR bonneville class, no NASCAR straightline speed record. NASCAR turns corners . . . and he hasn't. So he made up a class for his own use. I call that "bragging".
He sounds just like Evel Knievel. I have nothing against self-promotion. Muhammad Ali was the best at it, but backed it up with performance.
Lets see the performance.
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My original post was simple FYI. I have no idea who Russ is other then a good article that puts him in a good light. The main thing I was try to convey is that there is a renewed interest in going FAST! I for one am excited about seeing and hearing
FAST!
I think if Russ gets wind of these posts it will goad him in to following through. Any thoughts on how fast cars might go wheel driven (during our life time?) I was there back in the day when Eddy Hill ran 4.77 and couldn't imagine that anyone could go quicker. LOL
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Russ held a water speed record that was overseen by the American Power Boat Association (APBA) whose records then slot into the UIM lists. Russ went up against speeds set by Unlimited Hydros of the old cabover design with aircraft piston engines but they both used a big single propellor immersed in the water.
Dave Villwock in Miss Budweiser achioeved an average over two runs of 220 mph with the prop shaft breaking up, so all talk of 250 mph boats is not comparing oranges with oranges one is an instantaneous peak.
I have seen stories in Hot Rod magazine of various Nascar cars running over the years on the salt at Bonneville - straightline as well as the big flat circle track. Russ happened to finds the same stories I think and went for a modern equivalent. Cry foul if you wish but for a non racer he is doing rather well.
Of course his main goal on water is not a subject for this landracing website.
Malcolm
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Of course his main goal on water is not a subject for this landracing website
Sorry, just can't resist.
Russ Wicks has committed to bringing the World Water Speed Record back to the United States. Wicks, who will pilot the American Challenge Craft, is currently known as the "Fastest American on Water".
Did he some how miss Lee Taylor, Bellflower, CA? Hustler held the water record at 285, slightly faster than Russ has ever been.
See what I mean? He may do what he is planning, but his own web site is full of junk like that.
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"Kit Car Flier" :roll:
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he's fast on his web page......
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More power to Wick's acheiving his goals- remember the brash young kid named Breedlove.
But what irks me after perusing Wick's website though, is how his PR people have carefully dodged a whole lot of stuff that hardcore Landspeed racers know as facts but the general public and most potential sponsor corporate types are naive to.
Rhetoric kind of like all politicos spew.
By the way, 317.30 is the benchmark for the waterspeed mark near as I recall - Ken Warby, right, mates? .
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I admit I have never heard of Russ Wicks. I keep seeing His name and NASCAR in the same sentence.
I went to www.racing-reference.info
No one by that name has ever run in a NASCAR Cup, Bush or truck race.
What is a NASCAR Exta Legal spoiler?
Like they say in Texas " All hat......No cattle ".
Doug in big ditch
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I like the part on his website about the dragracing experience. The only thing it states is that he went to Frank Hawleys school for super comp, and for Alcohol funny or dragster. I guess this makes him a drag racer. It does not state any other experience drag racing, or running a drag car.
Some people make mountains out of mole hills. :roll:
Tom G.
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Ken set the boat record in 78 with a jet powered rig and he has another one that can be faster but with nobody to challange, the funding is lacking.
Prop in the water driven is another deal. :wink:
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Cry foul if you wish but for a non racer he is doing rather well.
Of course his main goal on water is not a subject for this landracing website.
Malcolm
Malcolm, as I wrote, stupid or got the guts or both together.....but if he hurt himself he hurt the whole speed community who is racing serious......the USA today will find the right headliner.....
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I cannot follow the reasoning that an individual could have as much affect on land speed record breaking than any other. Why should any incident involveing Russ be any more, or any less serious, to the LSR world than an incident at Speedweek, as Pork Pie states?
If Russ is licenced by SCTA/BNI then he will be deemed suitable to drive at 300 to 400 mph during their events. If he drives on private time on the salt flats at Bonneville (or indeed anywhere else) then he falls under governance of others.
And why should Russ be thought of as any less "racing serious" as any other LSR participant with any type of vehicle.
Have you started on the Christmas spirits (alcohol) so early P.P.?
The water speed record will be the most dangerous - but that is a topic for a different group.
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Malcolm,
it's the show this guy is doing. Like the Crocodile Hunter in Australia - when he was killed by his own stupidness and shows (if you saw how he done the real filming you would understand the word shows) the whole world was crying.
When Evel broke a bone, the whole state done...outsch......to the same time 500 bikers broke there bone by an accident......nobody cried----except the family of the rider......
And by the way, Russ has no SCTA/BNI/USFRA licence.....he is outlaw racer who rent the salt for his attempt.
As someone mentioned right, he is a Evel Knievel by his own promotion....not as daredevil but in speed.
It has nothing to do with serious racing as hundreds of racer is doing during the race season at the salt.
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Have you started on the Christmas spirits (alcohol) so early P.P.?
Malcolm, I think this are not the right words.......and by the way......I'm a non alcoholic
........but I follow this guys self promotion too long and he kicked to much asses without showing his own class.......it could be once that Speed kick his ass...................and this will hurts............
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Ask a non-participant in LSR about the fastest jet car and they will say it is the Budweiser that went over the speed of sound.
1. It was never a car.
2. I was never a jet.
3. It didn't set a record that beat anybody.
4. Nobody that was there heard a "Boom".
"In summary, it doesn't matter so much what and how you do it if you say it enough, soon enough, the consumers that buy the beer and T-shirt stuff will believe it, and be suitably consumed by it." (me)
NEXT ? :roll:
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The best way to describe him is “Wanna Be Poser” Alto he claims to have raced Motorcycles and had Honda support he does not claim any races competed in or won (probably cuz these details can be checked out) Then he bought a boat.. Oops I don’t know that for sure, heck he probably begged or borrowed it and drove it to break a long standing record (something those boat guys “don’t do” or are not interested in doing) so now he is a self proclaimed boat racer…Cuz he did it…. Then he goes to a drag race school and proclaims he is a drag racer…never actually competed in a professional drag race… but since he sat in one and can spell it.. now he is a drag racer…Oh, Oh, then there’s the indy car thing… again talked someone, heck probably paid someone something just to "test it" and now he’s an Indy car driver…Then he gets himself a NASCAR… and takes it to Bonneville.. again racing it in a venue that NASCAR boys don’t do and sets himself a self proclaimed record… now he’s a NASCAR driver….A Guiness record please, heck all ya have to do is fill out their forms and put up the money and you bought yourself a record… Everyone knows the real book of LSR records is the SCTA book…Don’t see his name there….Do ya see the pattern here that I do… he gets a vehicle and does with it that people don’t normally do just to align himself with that sport and claim “he’s race those”.. His actions probably have not gotten him much respect in the boat circle as well as Indy, NASCAR, and now the LSR community…. Wonder who he is tryin to impress….not me.
Kent
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Kent
The SCTA do not have any role with water speed records. The man hired the boat and set an official record under an International body.
Kent, I have to agree that the 'NASCAR' bid was contrived - but he has still run over 240 mph and other NASCAR legal Stock cars have been seen on 'your salt' according to magazines and books. Who supplied the clocks and facilities on the salt when he ran? I doubt that it was as incestuous as that Budweiser bid Jack. Someone must have run the clocks and watched?
No offence Pork Pie intended but your rant smacked of being fuelled by something other than a reasonable spirit. I will stand you a non alcholic drink next time we meet.
As to the so called 'Gas Record' for streamliners. As only the SCTA club and similar USA organisations have a grouping for what vehicles running on what is called 'gasoline', then for Russ to run at Bonneville but not be observed by his peers in SCTA or USFRA would be unacceptable. But he would still be damned fast at over 370 mph.
The history books on land speed record breaking show that a great number of record holders did not race with the SCTA either at first or at all. Is it just another case that this guy has ambition, self belief in abundance, a good PR team promoting everything and (probably worst of all) he has sponsorship!?
Malcolm
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"Money talks, and talks, and talks, and talks, until they talk you out of yours.
I am not impressed by it enough to waste any time or money." (me) :wink:
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Malcolm
It seems your reading interpolation skills are still lacking... reread my post again before commenting on it... Real NASCAR racers go as fast as they possibly can down the straight and then.....turn left!...This Meeks guy wouldn’t think of doing "that" cuz he wouldn’t set a record.. A real NASCAR racer goes to every race on the schedule and attempts to qualify... this guy just buys a car at takes it to a different venue and sets a self proclaimed record just to align himself with a sport..... I suspect he would have tried to set a "fastest Indy car" record but the cost of a newer car capable of doing it was probably too much so now he is gonna have someone build him a car and self create a record just so he can accomplish his goals I don’t know what you call it over there but we call it a "POSER"
Kent
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No offence Pork Pie intended but your rant smacked of being fuelled by something other than a reasonable spirit. I will stand you a non alcholic drink next time we meet.
Malcolm......
Don Vesco, Art Arfons, Nolan White, Al Teague and more.........hot rodder and racer.......
........may be you understand now........................
....and I can buy myself a drink............
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Kent. I agreed it was a contrived record for a NASCAR car. I did not say thet Russ Wicks could ever claim to be a NASCAR driver. I could not either but I have driven a left hand only oval. I do not agree that the Guinness book should list such a record - as the cars only exist in one country. But why does it work the other way round in history - when a NASCAR driver leaves the oval and sets a straightline speed down the salt?
Pork Pie. Seems that whilst we both admire the hot rodder and landspeed record breaker (please add to those you named, John Beckett and keith Turk). Do you do not rate anyone (like Russ) using another route to setting a speed 'record' as being deserving of any encouragement or praise? So as to keep the posting on new challengers in the spirit of a 'pi**ing contest', what then do you think Pork Pie of Richard Noble, Andy Green (before JCB Dieselmax), Richard Brown, Sir Malcolm and Donald Campbell. Don Wales, John Cobb or even the late Steve Fossett (RIP)?
If the guy Wicks has someone build a 'gas streamliner' and the target is an SCTA/BNI speed - which exists as a class in your US sanctioning organisation record book and no where else - why should that be "self creating a record"?
Self publicist Russ may be, but not many would set a water speed record over 200mph just to be classed as a "poser". But what do I know, I have yet to drive a racer on the salt.
Malcolm
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what then do you think Pork Pie of Richard Noble, Andy Green (before JCB Dieselmax), Richard Brown, Sir Malcolm and Donald Campbell. Don Wales, John Cobb or even the late Steve Fossett (RIP)?
This guys are true racers - with Don Wales, I never got a explain why he stopped to go forward with his electric attempt - he pushed for a long time - built the racers and run them in England - was he running out of money?
With Russ water speed record is it different - but it will need too long to explain it here....much too long.
By the way - you really mean that this guys, especially a John Cobb, done it for public.......I think with your list you went a little bit far out of the window......think about this......
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A last comment to Russ....did you know how close he was to kill himself when he set the water speed record...
As I wrote at the beginning....stupid or got the guts or both together.....but making sucide is not the best advertisment for our sport - if on water or on land.....
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In the late 90's I was at the World Finals and was scoping out various class cars when I came across a particularly attractive steamliner owned by Jim Burkdall and driven by a fellow with a multicolored mohawk. I sat in disbelief stairing at the engine. It used a 60's block with camel hump heads and old 60's Hilborn's with the short little chrome metal stacks, 1 3/4" at most. From my recollection of the era about a 400hp motor at most. Finally Jim himself asked me if I had a question. I asked why he was using such old tech. And he said their last run was their fastest ever (303mph) and there computer indicated 17% wheel slip!! Wow. That car looked like a 7/8 Nish car and it was tapped at 303? So does anyone want to comment on why. No takers on the wing so many successfully run on lakesters, no speculaters on how fast cars can go with traction control and all the new tech. Why not a wing on a steamliner. I want to learn!!!!! Teach me!!! And quit picking on poor old Russ. AND seriously when you guys put your minds to it you post some really infomative stuff, so get to it! (pork pie)lol
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"Tough crowd." (Rodney Dangerfield - successful restaurant owner)
It kinda looks like Russ is ranked right down there with the "World's Tallest Midget", and has gathered all the respect he has earned. :roll:
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Why not a wing on a steamliner.
Which is more aerodynamic - a crate of beer (bottle) or a block of bricks with the same outside dimension.
The crate of beer has less cross section with the space between the bottles.....but extremely bad aerodynamic so the bricks are much better.
A lakester is the nightmare for everything called airflow....clean airflow.
When a lakester use a wing, the different of interrupt or destroyed airflow will be so small, that the increase of downforce from the wing is a big plus for going fast - a wing produce downforce with this that he break the airflow.
A streamliner is living from the airflow.....you push so much hp in.....and you still go slow....if the aerodynamic on a streamliner is bad and the airflow is interrupt.
Best example - Hoffman Markley streamliner, they add small wings on - 8 inches on both sides and slowed down by more than 20 mph.
2002 - August - Al Teague used a wing and slowed down by more the 20 mph, his last run at Speedweek was without the wing and he went again over 400....if there was not the late Nolan White he would be fastest of the meet.
The only chance to improve downforce by a kind of wing, without disturbing the airflow are small carnads, may be up to 2 1/2 inch wide when they are right designed - no road track profil - high speed profile which start to work at speed higher than 160 mph.....but this as the last solution if there is no other way to improve the performance.
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.................... And he said their last run was their fastest ever (303mph) and there computer indicated 17% wheel slip!! Wow. ..................
17% wheel spin doesn't necessarily mean it would have gone 17% faster. They had enough HP and not enough weight to spin the tires, but if they were hooked up they might not had enough HP to go much faster. Remember 8 times the HP to run twice as fast. For speculation's sake lets say they did have 400 HP and were only using 375 HP at the 303 mph speed when they got tire spin. 17% faster would be 354 mph. To run that speed they would need 598 HP. Likewise using the 400 HP figure if they would have been hooked up they would have run 309.500 mph or about 6 miles an hour faster.
There are spreadsheets here to help figure this stuff:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Drag%20Force%20--HP%20to%20run%20a%20Speed
..........no speculators on how fast cars can go with traction control and all the new tech.......................
Traction control might not of helped the car go any faster. It might have stopped the wheel spin only. Remember it doesn't give you traction just helps you not spin the tires.
........................ Why not a wing on a steamliner. ......................
To add to Pork Pie in order for a wing to create down force no matter how well designed it is going to have some frontal area and aero drag. From the example above you can see any aero drag is going to result in big HP figures to overcome it. Personally I can't see using a wing on anything if you can avoid it by having room to add weight.
c ya,
Sum
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I wonder if maybe the Nish car looks like a 1 1/8 scale Burkdoll car ?
Some people know that the body for the Nish liner was made by Jim and his son so maybe they are alike for a reason. :roll:
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Thanks for all your responses,and now before you unwrap your gifts, one LAST thought, the reason I came to my lame conclusion. That being that traction trumps aero if you have unused HP on tap and I used the Burkland example where their may be 1000 unused HP.
In the lower steamliner and lakester classes there is quite abit of speed difference in the normally asperated classes. I would have to believe they are all putting their power to the ground to set records. Fast Freddy D. and Joe Law go huge speed (Joe with a C engine) with those 30" tires sucking speed. If they streamlined their cars and kept their wings so they could use all availible power that would put both over 400mph to my way of thinking. I hope I've givin enough info in a short response to see my point.
xxxx good on ya, see ya mates!
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they could use all availible power that would put both over 400mph to my way of thinking.
Not really, to cover the wheels for streamlining means in the same time to increase the cross section size....and the cross section is part of the drag formula.......to go 400 mph needs a good combination of power, aerodynamic and cross section....
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Racergeo
I know of two streamliners being planned,''one started'' both with wings. Hope to see these guys at newyears party and find out if they want me to post more.Also take fotos.
Now if they would vary the angle of atack as they shifted,''like that lakester up near Carson city''.
JL222
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Very interesting jl222. And that brings me to my last post (possibly) on this subject! SUMNER, pretty please use one of your spread sheets and cleverly put your normal value of CD to each tire on Joe Laws lakester. Rears look to be 30inchers. then back that amount out of what his drag would be and figure his RW HPat about 1200. (dual turbo BBC with elec. FI and computer engine management, easy 1200hp) Now imagine his car has some little aluminum wheels tucked inside the body in front and his rear tires are inside his body and he has change his rear gear for a little more speed and VOILA a steamliner with a wing. Now no cheating, how fast? and that is aC/BGS!!! To add to the confusion any wing I add would be to the front. What say you Jack? WHat would Noel Black have done?
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Very interesting jl222. And that brings me to my last post (possibly) on this subject! SUMNER, pretty please use one of your spread sheets and cleverly put your normal value of CD to each tire on Joe Laws lakester. Rears look to be 30inchers. then back that amount out of what his drag would be and figure his RW HPat about 1200. (dual turbo BBC with elec. FI and computer engine management, easy 1200hp) Now imagine his car has some little aluminum wheels tucked inside the body in front and his rear tires are inside his body and he has change his rear gear for a little more speed and VOILA a steamliner with a wing. Now no cheating, how fast? and that is aC/BGS!!! To add to the confusion any wing I add would be to the front. What say you Jack? WHat would Noel Black have done?
Too many varibles there that I would be guessing at, but I can tell you............
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bville-cars-2/355-3-06.jpg)
.............. that in 2006 with the car almost in the configuration you are talking about they set the current A/BGS record at 286.262. I see that after setting the record they made a down run of 356.984 mph, but no runs after that, so maybe they hurt the motor/car on that run.
Their C/BFL record is 349.873, but I don't know what the speeds were for the two runs to set the record. Note that the '06 record and 357 mph run was an A motor on gas and the lakester record is a C motor on fuel.
They probably couldn't get the rear wheels/tires inside of that body so a bubble would have to go out to enclose them resulting in more frontal area than there is now, but granted better Cd. The question would be how much of a gain would they see that far back on the car as the air might be pretty separated by that point. The gain would probably come from not a bubble over the tires, but a new body that is wider further forward that would then transition past the tires and close in behind them. That would result in a really long car then with other aero problems. The car is a great car, but I think it has probably reached it limits as far as streamlining is concerned. There are a couple more pictures here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bville-cars-2/355-2006.html
If you are designing a car from scratch why do you want to design it with a front wing? Seems Burkland and Teague have gone pretty fast with no front wing and someone already mentioned the results of Al experimenting with a rear wing. If you have an existing car and it is experiencing problems then maybe a wing might be a possible solution for the problems, but why have more frontal area than you need if it can be avoided.
c ya,
Sum
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Joe quit after the down run because he was failing rubber bands......(tires). He made that last pass with a tire that failed long before his exit! He knew it, but it was still going straight so he stayed in it! A lot was learned from his putting theory in to practice though.
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In the days of the multi, multi ply tires like the Indy skins and the old LSR stuff, turn around maintenance consisted of trimming the string ends from the broken cords .
Tire spin has been the limiting factor for most and some relief has come with the 4WD, but they have had their share of failures also.
The race is still to the tires, and until another track is developed, not much is going to change.
What bothers me most about canards is their reaction to a cross wind where one side is loaded dramatically more than you would experience with just a slippery shape and suitable down force from on board ballast.
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Just saw this post.
We did not lose any speed with our rear wings as they were retractable. We only tested them the last year we ran using alky. The wings were for use with nitro as we had a traction problem up to about 320mph.
I believe they would work well for some traction up to the mid 2 mile and could also be used to slow the car down on shutdown.
Harry Hoffman Jr
Why not a wing on a steamliner.
Which is more aerodynamic - a crate of beer (bottle) or a block of bricks with the same outside dimension.
The crate of beer has less cross section with the space between the bottles.....but extremely bad aerodynamic so the bricks are much better.
A lakester is the nightmare for everything called airflow....clean airflow.
When a lakester use a wing, the different of interrupt or destroyed airflow will be so small, that the increase of downforce from the wing is a big plus for going fast - a wing produce downforce with this that he break the airflow.
A streamliner is living from the airflow.....you push so much hp in.....and you still go slow....if the aerodynamic on a streamliner is bad and the airflow is interrupt.
Best example - Hoffman Markley streamliner, they add small wings on - 8 inches on both sides and slowed down by more than 20 mph.
2002 - August - Al Teague used a wing and slowed down by more the 20 mph, his last run at Speedweek was without the wing and he went again over 400....if there was not the late Nolan White he would be fastest of the meet.
The only chance to improve downforce by a kind of wing, without disturbing the airflow are small carnads, may be up to 2 1/2 inch wide when they are right designed - no road track profil - high speed profile which start to work at speed higher than 160 mph.....but this as the last solution if there is no other way to improve the performance.
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Almost 8 years later and no more info from the OP quoting of the dreamer.
DW
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Boy that was fun.
Sure miss Jack D.
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......If you are designing a car from scratch why do you want to design it with a front wing? Seems Burkland and Teague have gone pretty fast with no front wing and someone already mentioned the results of Al experimenting with a rear wing. If you have an existing car and it is experiencing problems then maybe a wing might be a possible solution for the problems, but why have more frontal area than you need if it can be avoided.
c ya,
Sum
The above was part of what I said back there in 2007 during this thread. I'd probably contradict myself now and say I can see reasons for front wings in some cases and I am even considering one if I ever finish the lakester :cry: :cry:
Sum
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Sorry to all to chime in, But do all you guys who post ever realize how fun it is to read all the comments from you guys that really know what there talking about ?
2 years ago after my first time at Bonneville, I was all giddy and wrote in, It was taken the wrong way and man did I get drilled by all of you guys, So much I said 'Good bye to all of you, You missed the point on how much I love Bonneville im done" But thankfully a guy named Old Scrambler was cool enough to email me on the side and say, Dont take all this to heart, Just kinda read and listen to what all these guys are sayin !
Well I did, And I just want to say, I feel bad for other forms of racing that done get to read all the banter from the Vets of the sport . I learn more in a four page drill of this challenger to the sport than I could learn i ten years of magazine articles,, Do you guys know what I mean,, Its like taking all the guys that really know the sport,Have them in a conference room, And you get to listen in an learn, And most of it has a lot of good humor with it ! Sure beats reading the newspaper, Thanks All !
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You need a thick skin here at times :-D but this build what you want LSR stuff can create some stories. Hang in there! :mrgreen:
Sid.