Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: V8Pinto on November 30, 2007, 02:28:51 PM
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Has anybody looked at the stock steering stop angles on their bike? I did a quick check with my calibrated Cigar/BeerBottle protractor last night and it looked like >15deg.
Sounds like even production class bikes will have to modify steering stops this year (or my protractor needs to be calibrated again).
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:wink:
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Sweet! I bet we'll get more than one run :)
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Boy I tell you, you just get set up to film some good old tank slappers and they take the fun away from you.
(http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/ian.huntly/PORIT.jpg)
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Steering stops are designed to limit the handle bar swing so you don't mash your hand off the grip, and almost everybody knows it.
That is the rule using common sense, and can be written as such, and easily verified.
If you are underway and your steering exceeds even fewer degrees, you are in a tank slapper that often results in a get off, or you already have.
The 15 degree declaration misses the mark. :wink:
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:wink:
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No, I get it.
I really do.
If I just yell out "WILLIE", how many are gonna answer up anyway ? :-D
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you are right jack--less in this case is better--the sidecars were lumped in with 2 wheelers --2 wheelers lean to steer to turn--sidecars steer to turn --i dont want to confuse anyone but if you ride a 2 wheeler and you want to make a left turn you turn the handlebars to the right the bike will lean left and turn left--a sidecar bike if you want to make a left turn you turn the handlebars to the left and the bike will turn left--the turning is a different so should be the degree of restriction --just a thought--- willie buchta
yes, the emergency "get off".....to be absolute Willie you need to point out that on a two wheeler that the bike will go left if you turn the bars to the left , but you won't.....now I won't profess to be an expert on "cars" but is that why leading links work better for them than low castor telescopic arrangements?
alright,
give it to me. :wink:
and another thing..
Boy I tell you, you just get set up to film some good old tank slappers and they take the fun away from you.
(http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/ian.huntly/PORIT.jpg)
Join Speed Wobbles For Fun!
jeez I feel sorry for that I guy every time I see that pic/video...he had a lot of time to get the fear into him.....and judging by where his feet are,,,his boys copped it... :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Leading-link type front-forks on the "old style" competition sidecars were strong to be able to handle the side-trust in cornering (roadracing) it also allowed for easier adjustment of the trail...................
In LSR telescopic forks work just fine.....after all the plan is to go in a straight line only..............
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The only LSR sidecar that I have build with leading link forks was our steamliner back in the late 1980's.......the rest of our LSR sidecars have use telle-forks....(have built many roadracers with leading links).........on the streamliner I used the same rake as I was using on our roadracers
...........27 degrees............................................................
If and whenI build another (if ever....getting old)
I would use Hub-Center steering with a 10 inch wheel....low profile..............I have build several
Hub-Center roadracers.....so I think I understand how they work................................................................
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A question came up last night. Does the 15 deg. rule apply to production machines?
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The only LSR sidecar that I have build with leading link forks was our steamliner back in the late 1980's.......the rest of our LSR sidecars have use telle-forks....(have built many roadracers with leading links).........on the streamliner I used the same rake as I was using on our roadracers
...........27 degrees............................................................
If and whenI build another (if ever....getting old)
I would use Hub-Center steering with a 10 inch wheel....low profile..............I have build several
Hub-Center roadracers.....so I think I understand how they work................................................................
The only advantage for a streamliner I see to center hub steering over the leading link is no steerer tube in the way, but at the expense of higher expense and more difficult to build.
I'm most likely going with a leading link, but not set in stone yet. I'm open to the ideas of those in the know.
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A question came up last night. Does the 15 deg. rule apply to production machines?
"In all classes other than Production and Modified Production, fork stops must limit fork travel to 15 deg. right and left (30 deg. total)."
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:wink:
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Willie,
Front end design using a "Trailing Link". You need to be concerned as to what happens to the rake angle and that will change with the length of the swing arm.
Terry :-D
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:wink:
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Willie,
Front end design using a "Trailing Link". You need to be concerned as to what happens to the rake angle and that will change with the length of the swing arm.
Terry :-D
Neat, so is that using like a car spindle and back spacing the wheel so it is center?? If so that wouldn't be too hard to make.
I'm looking for a very small frontal area -- willie buchta
I'd tell you to go on a diet, but in your case that wouldn't accomplish much :-o ,
Sum
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There are many ways to build a hub-center steering. Solo hub-center steering is a lot different than one for a sidecar.......we have build both....... and they take a lot of track time to get them adj. to one's liking. Most of the early
solo bike streamliners used hub-center.................
Craig Anderson's sidecar streamliner uses a hub-center and appears to work just great. (at the present time Craig holds the 1000c.c. AMA sidecar streamliner record) we will see more
sidecar records broken with this outstanding
liner. Hub-center in both solo and sidecars allow more adjustment options (again depending how it is done and build) One of the foremost experts on sidecar hub-center steering
is John Renwick from the U.K. ....John build a hub-center sidecar
roadracer back in the 1960's before most people
had thought about them. John will have his new
sidecar streamliner at the 08 BUB..........between
Craig and John I see no problem for a 250 +mph
1000c.c. sidecar record in the future.......................
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sumner i thought about a "car" spindle but it puts the weight on one side of the chassis --yea radiation and chemotherapy will do that to you --------willie buchta
The picture shows the spindle attached to an arm that goes around to the front and pivots on the both sides of the frame. Would that put the weight on one side especially since you are centering the wheel/tire on the spindle?? I'm trying to visualize the forces.
Congrats on making it through the rad/chemo and being with us today. I'll bet that was harder than building any bike you have built,
Sum
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Sumner, most sidecar hub-steering uses A-Arms
so Wille is right about it putting it on one side.
Think of it...........taking one corner off a car and fabricating it to a center frame.......However, there is a lot more involved.......one probem with sidecar hub-steering that you do not have in solo-bike hub-steering, is what we call bump- steering................. it gets rather complicated......
Any one interested in fabricating hub- steering for a sidecar feel free to contact me.....glad to help...........we have no secrets..................................
Glad you are doing well,, Willie...and Happy Holidays to you and yours........................................
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The more complicated you make it , the more you have to spend time on it.
A front tire from a TF car can do very well on most 2 wheel bike liners, and all with store bought stuff. :wink:
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terry your design as drawn wont work.....
kent
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I'll second what Willie said. Yesterday a box arrived and it is indeed a thrill to see the contents. Maybe to someone like JackD, who goes to Bonneville and sets 10 or 12 records in a day, its no big deal. But to us bottom feeders its the thrill of a lifetime. My thanks, too, to Cliff Wheeler and the SCTA.
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actually sum if it wasnt for the cancer i probably would never have raced at el mirage or bonneville --i was going to one day but that day just never came --now im just trying to do all of the things i put off all those years --i am thankful i got the chance and urge everyone to do it today tomorrow may never come ---merry christmas everyone willie buchta
I lost a wife to cancer when she was only 32 years old long ago and learned the lesson you are talking about then. Within reason I've tried to live my life at the moment with no expectations of being able to do something at a later date.
............and a merry Christmas to you and the rest of the guys on here,
Sum
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Yes, SCTA/BNI does have very nice trophy's
I think your right, Kent.....it is hard to see from the drawing......the "king-pin" center line has to intersect thru center of the wheel to the contact patch.............the "king-pin needs to be inside the wheel....requiring a "off-set" wheel
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speaking of christmas yesturday fed-x came with a package from ok. i told sheri i didnt order anything from ok. but opened it anyway and there was the most most beautiful thing i ever saw a trophy for a record i set at bonneville the best christmas present i ever recieved thanks everyone and a special thanks to clifton wheeler willie buchta
Willie-
Can you post a pic? I have wondered what they looked like. Congrats and Merry Christmas! Scott
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Speaking as a rider (Bak builds em and I ride em) everything I have ridden that he has built has either had leading link or conventional fork style front end. These have always been sidecars, including a streamliner, and they always handled excellent. It seems to me that keeping it simple eliminates a lot of potential problems. BUB uses a conventional style front end on his liner and he has tried them all. Remember, I only ride the thing, I don't build em!
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You got it sorted out, Willie......I think in order to get a hub you would have to make it yourself.....
you also need a wheel with a big off-set in order
to get the hub in the wheel center.........................
Marvic makes a 17 inch wheel with a off-set that
has been used on solo hub-center bikes.................
P.S. Nice trophy.....you sure look a lot better than you "cousin"..........................................................
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Yamama made one once on a production bike but soon found it was the obvious answer to a question that nobody had.
If you make a center hub, the wheel has to be centered over the hinge point but and an offset wheel is not required if the hub to wheel fastening is centered and the wheel is made appropriately.
Keep it simple so as to have more time to race. :wink:
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Center hub, leading link, trailing link, spindle, king pin... they'll all work if designed properly...
Terry,
You have one major problem with your design... "King pin inclination".... as your suspension moves your kingpin angle changes..You indicate on your drawing of a static 18deg (too steep for 300mph) as the suspension moves upward your planned 1.12"of travel, you will probably be at 8 to 10 deg. To fix this you have 3 options.
1) You need to float the kingpin and have a drag link anchored vertical from the swing arm pivot (I have ideas as how to do this) but your 12deg of turning might pose a problem with drag link to tire contact
2) 2 swing arms (I can take a pix of the setup that’s on one of my liners)
3) No suspension (it might actually have some benefits)
whatever design you choose you should probably change it to a leading link style especially if it is of a single sided design due to thickness for support at curve and to get tire clearance. Usually my tires rub the bodywork right about where you plan to have your swing arm run.. You will be able to narrow up the front CD if you do
Willie
I have a couple of center hubs and front suspension designs I can loan you to copy. You should come down and take a look.. all my designs are for 300+mph and use a 15” rim for the Goodyear 21-3.5X15 LSR tire
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Hey Willie congrats on your trophy. You have what is called the "qualifier" version as the rider is heading East as if on a qualifier. Rarer is the " return" trophy where the rider is heading West as if on the return run. If you have a great year you earn the "draft" trophies where one rider drafts the other on two trophies. Rarest of all is the "freight train". Only Mr. Guthrie has that ( 50 in a row- aka the freight train). :-D
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mine is the east -west trophy errrr actually in one pic its backwards wooooooooopsssssssssss next year ill try for the draft trophy willie buchta[\]merry christmas everyone
does anyone know how tech will measure this 15 degree left 15 degree right maximum steering thing
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I don't really ant to do a Lazarus to this thread but. Seeing that we will be restricted to 15 deg. lock that means a steering damper won't have much travel (if you are using a rod type damper) so will they be required? The reason I ask this is that I brought my sidecar up to El Mirage to let Tom have a look. I don;t have much lock on it and Tom noted that the damper rod didn't have much travel. He asked if I could move it out to create more travel. If we are restricted in steering travel will we have to modify our damper mounts to increase damper travel?
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if you look on build diaries then bracket fabrication and other fun stuff you will see a easy dampner bracket to build --the first time i went to el mirage there was no trouble with my dampner--the second time i was told that my dampner wasnt dampening enough that i should move it out to make it stiffer --when i got home i drained out the 10 weight oil and put in some 30 weight 4 more times to el mirage 2 times to bonneville not a problem --on a cold morning it feels a little stiff but tech likes and so do i ---got my second trophy today and lucky me its the draft trophy thanks willie buchta
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The extension bracket has been made and mounted a good while now. I'm just curious to know, seeing that we have no steering lock to speak of, will a damper be required?
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any idea if there is gonna be a bub event this year?
kent
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'07 SCTA rulebook, P. 100, first thing on the page:
7.B.17 Steering damper: Required in all classes.
It's in the general motorcycle requirements, near the front of the bike section. No equivocating -- required.
By the way, since the comma cop hasn't been heard from recently -- there is no letter "n" in the word damper. It's NOT dampener, it's not dampner, it IS damper. Just thought I'd mention this. . .
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Willie,
7.B.17 "Steering Damper required all classes"
:mrgreen:
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Dang Jon beat me to it... :mrgreen:
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Hey, John, what do you expect -- I posted my comment at about a quarter to nine in the morning -- and it wasn't even 6AM in your part of the world. You just weren't awake yet, that's all.
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Way, to go Willie...........................................................
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any idea if there is gonna be a bub event this year?
kent
Kent - I just called BUB about 5 mnutes ago to confirm dates. Well, I talked to BUB's answering machine. :roll: I'll let you know what they tell me.
Ken
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any idea if there is gonna be a bub event this year?
kent
Kent - I just called BUB about 5 mnutes ago to confirm dates. Well, I talked to BUB's answering machine. :roll: I'll let you know what they tell me.
Ken
I was called yesterday by Bub's and was told that there will be many changes for this seasons (2008) Bub racing event..
J
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any idea if there is gonna be a bub event this year?
kent
Kent - I just called BUB about 5 mnutes ago to confirm dates. Well, I talked to BUB's answering machine. :roll: I'll let you know what they tell me.
Ken
BUB website says dates are 8/31-9/5.
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I was called yesterday by Bub's and was told that there will be many changes for this seasons (2008) Bub racing event..
J
Oh that's not nice, c'mon John share! :-o
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When I'm inspecting I look for compliance to the rules vis-a-vis safety. I don't look for class compliance, nor do I ask the entrant to show me his spelling abilities, unless he's written something in his logbook that is so difficult to understand that I have to ask for a translation.
When someone elects to offer examples of his spelling skills in a public setting (such as this forum) I don't feel so constrained, however, hoping that once in a while an onlooker will appreciate my efforts to improve an individual's understandability.
And I certainly don't see that it's commendable to congratulate others when they brag about their inability to spell. Many of us feel that there's value in knowing how to clearly communicate without showing our inabilities.
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Hey, Jon (Slim).....how do you spell krankshaft???
So Sorry, I am so bad....................................................
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I certainly didn't think that Jon was "raging". He's a real asset (yes, Ass-e-t) to our group and this board. And he knows where the Cap key and the Query mark is located -- and that makes him more readable and understandable than a lot of us. I'ts not bad to use proper grammar -- it just helps us be better understood. Now if you guys could get him to rewrite the MC rules . . .
Stan Back
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Come on you guys.........no picking on Jon............
that is my job.................
His writing is GREAT........His reading and interpretation of the of the rule-book (sorry)
rulebook.....????????????????????????????????????
P.S. remember Jon...nice guys finish last..............
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Fiat OFF
<breaks off end of beer bottle> I'm covering your back, Jon. These Harley guys are pugnacious bastards, aren't they?
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Hey people take it easy....no one get's out of here alive...................................................................
We all have our various skills,........Willie builds his bikes from the ground up, and is very good
at it....as we have all seen in his various postings.....................................................................
Jon, on the other hand appears to have a skill
in English, but he has to have his bikes build by a outside tuner (Mike is it?) in Penn., I believe,,,
So there you are.................we all have our limitations..........75% of smart is knowing what you are dumb at..........so let's all get along and go racing in 2008 while the salt lasts............................