Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: ulrace on November 29, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
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Might be a dumb question but I saw in searching the archives that bantams were disallowed or something like that?
thanks for responding
bob
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The Hudson Boys run a rear engine Bantam.
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Perfect thanks; i'll look for some pics..
bob
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The Bantam has MORE frontal area than a '27T!
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The Bantam has MORE frontal area than a '27T!
If it's taller and narrower, the frontal area of the completed car might be lower. I don't think anyone's managed to get the top of the roll bar down to the level of the top of the body on a T.
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Hello all,I've been lurking here quite a while now.Been going to Bonneville off and on with my buddy's racecar,or just to spectate since 1969.
Now about Bantam roadsters.My buddy built one between 1968-1969 to replace his '34 roadster.Ran B/GR with unblown 392.Had extended hood with '34 Chev.grill shell,similar to what the late Mark Dees had at that time.Switched to B/FR in 1971 and qualified for record.During the winter the SCTA outlawed any Bantam with a hood longer than stock,and non stock grille shell.We spent the winter changing it to a modified roadster.He finally got into the 200 club with a supercharged 392.
Now some years ago I saw a Bantam running in thr GR class with a long hood and different grille shell with a GMC engine.
So,are Bantam's legal for anything?I guess it depends on what year it ran.Seems even the SCTA can't make up it's mind.
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The rulebook has parameters that a roadster has to fit into. Grille shell sq. in. is also a part of the equation. If you can make your American roadster fit in the box you're good to go.
That was then, this is now. Ask JD, Bill Goldman and Don Wilson.
DW
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I thought that the use of the bantam roadster was because the body kind of tucked in the rear tires? That is why I thought the body was illegal? I do know that the Hudson boys ran one as a rear engine modified and I have seen a few others out at the salt as well?
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The one that the Hudson Boys run is their old stream liner with the back of the liner cut off and the Bantam body mounted. I was talking to them at speed week in ’06 and they mentioned that they may switch the car back to a stream liner in the future.
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I think that was the point of their car, to run it as a liner, lakster and now a rear engine modified. Get as many records as you can.
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Model A, why didn't you mention Dave Kostella's car by name? We are all friends here. My infamous American Austin, I won't call it what everyone else calls it, was rebuilt 3 times because of the SCTA rule changes.
Mark Dee's and Dave's cars were already running in 1969 when it was started.The Minall-Barrious roadster first showed up with a 29 Ford grille shell, which was allowed in 1970. It had a 12 inch stretch which also in the book at that time. Marks and Dave's had longer than the 12" stretch and both were put in modified even tho Marks had set a record in Gas Roadster.
Barrious had to put on a "factory" shell the next year much smaller than the 530". It ran for a few years and I bought in 1981. By '83 I had rebuilt it the first time, The grille shell rule was change to 530" no matter what the car. At this time I put the rear wheels in the stock location much narrower than a Ford. The hood length was still 12" over stock I used a 31 Chevrolet shell.. After Dave went in the 2 club over 260+ mph I don't remember seeing his car anymore. I had the Dees body for years and now Jim Lattin has it.
For the beginning of the '86 season the rules were changed to 50" rear tread, no rear fenders, no tanks infront of the grille. 3 things made my car illegal. By 1987 the 12" stretch of the hood left and 143" over length was in and I started rebuliding again. The rules have remained pretty constant since then. I brought mine back in '93 look as it is now. 32 Ford grille shell, 143" overall length, 50" tread width, 28" from the windshield line to the step pan, etc.
Ford guys in the past changed the rules to make the demensions similar for all gas/fuel roadsters. very few Austin roadsters were ever built in the whole scheme of things. Guys want Fords.
At this time ALL the current/past running Austins have put some one in the 2 club. Dave Kostella in as a modified along with Amos Beard in his. Mark Dees, Bill Goldman and Patrick & me, JD, Tone as Gas /Fuel Highboys.
Wilson is already in th 2 Club with his Hudson powered cars but I believe he will also go over 200 as a rear engine Austin.
Austins are actually wider than both the 27 and the 28/29 Fords at their widest spot. They are short and are hard to meet the firewall/step pan rule in Gas/Fuel roadsters. But it is a choice all make.
I have pictures in my garage with Chuck Potvin sitting in Med Healy's Austin roadster in the 40's. It had a 32 Ford grille shell and a Chevrolet 6 for power. So nothing is new. Good Luck
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Gee, It's interesting reading some of the obscure history of our passion.
Thanks JD
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Thanks for all the info and history guys; I like the Bantam (Austin) because the rear tires can tuck in so well even without fenders,. Also the plan is to reuse a rear engine dragster chassis that is low to start with and get the cage down close to the top of the cowl. With the fairing allowed the cp should come out nice and seems to be a natural. Would i be allowed a front wing? I know a rear is allowed though probably not needed.
Impressive that so many records are held with these bodies..
thanks again
bob
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No matter what body you use the rear tread width needs to remain at minimum 50", that's center to center of the tire. I installed factory demension inner rear fender panels to my body when I was allowed to do so but it is no longer allowed. I could fill a lot of that in now but just don't bother. Amos Beard's front engine modified body has the entire fender well filled in even with the body. This to get the car lower.
Only Bill Goldman, Wilson and I have current records. We only rent them...Good Luck
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Bob,
Before puting a lot of time and money into the "Rear Engine Dragster chassis" check the rule book closely and talk to people that run similar reincarnated Dragsters. There have been a number of posts in the past regarding the suitability. Issues like tubing wall thickness, Chromemoly vs mild steel, etc. Remember in LSR weight is our friend!
Do your research. Welcome, and keep is updayed on your progress. Wounderful resources on this site.
Tom
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Would truly welcome input from someone who has tried this combination. I have looked at a couple mild steel cars that are relatively heavy. They tend to be in the 160" wheelbase range but are heavier wall mild steel and usually well built. We were at Speedweek in 2005 and started talking about the class and how there were chassis readily available. It just seems a natural to get to the salt without a lengthy construction time.
I realize the tread width is the same for all but the bantam body looks as if it shields the air from the rear tires better that the fords do. Of course it is wider so there is a tradeoff.
bob
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I think JD was saying that the required 50" rear tread moves the rear tires out of the protection of the body.
Are you going to find that the tubing dia. on the NHRA legal car too small for LSR?
DW
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Dan is somewhat correct. If you are thinking of putting your tire wheel combination at the exact 50" you are correct in thinking part of the wheel will be inside of the widest part of the body. With that said if you want it as low as possible your rear tires will need to fit at the original fender./wheel well line which keep the diameter farily small. Good luck
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Thanks dan; I was concerned about the tubing also but the NHRA spec is actually .010 heavier than LSR and roll cage tubing is same od. Not sure about the other tubes but the cars i am looking at are both mild steel and heavily built.
The hudson boys Austin is a good example of the body partially shielding the rear tires at legal width. Just looks like the way to go. Jimm Six has a great point about the tire size to get the car low. I'll look into that.
When the rulebook says that skirts can be only 1/2" thick; are they taikng about the material thickness? In other words a skirt could be 1/2 " thick but extend 3" from the rocker toward the ground. could not flip out at the bottom edge as that would violate the thickness rule?
bob
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Hello jimmy six.It's Dave Koskela,not Kostella.He still has the roadster(along with 6 392'S and an Allison V-1710 V-12),but it's all apart.He got hurt in a m/c crash and is partialy disabled.He lives about 2 miles from me we talk once a week,and I'll be seeing him tomorrow.
Your right about the frontal area,the late Alex Tremulis pointed this out to us in 1969.
Also had a wing attached to the underside of the rear axle in '69.SCTA would not give an offical time with it,but some officials were looking at the car without the wing and let slip that it went 208 on first run(over then record).Ran 202 without wing.The wing was a Smokey Yunick type deal,you had to read between the lines.
As was previously stated,that was then,this is now.
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If you haven't bought a Bantam (or the earler Austin) body yet be REEEL careful what you buy -some of the ones that are available for mostly drag race use MAY not dimensionally be accurate. Even though it's a Modified Roadster you have to adhere (sp?) to stock height , width, length dimensions from firewall back. Of course maye you're starting with an original.
Ask KEN KELLEY about dimensional accuracy on his '27T. And he bought a car that was already pretty heavily campaigned but was DQ'd.
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Hey bystander.. that occured to me also. Looking at the bantam that Speedway makes but need to research factory dimensions vs theirs. All the dragrace used bodies would be unlikely to be useable.
The body just seems to me to be much more possibly aero than a 23 or 27 t. ilove the t's and have a steel track roadster. for modified rear engine I think the Austin is it.
Planning on running as 3 liter (F) class.
if anyone has the dimensions it needs to be that would be much appreciated.
thansk
bob
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The Speedway body would be my choice, also. Probably the Fibreglass Trends(if you can still locate that company) ORIGINAL body with the fenders is OK- the fenderless dragrace body was cobbled up by yrs truly and Bonneville Streamliner builder Don Arivett back in the mid-'80s of which they made a mold.
But I'd still try to find an original factory body and maybe make templates off it- especially after Kelley's '27T debacle that I'm not sure was quite fair. That body hadn't been built since Oct 1927- at least Bantams were built (albeit in small number) up to '40. There are several websites devoted to American Austins and Bantams if you want to do the research.
My point is, what has time and miles of roads done to all the vintage bodies? How close do the dimensions need to be?
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close enough to stand up under PROTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Amen Sparky!!
Bend the rules and go between them but always, Always comply.
So bystander; now we know Why the drag bodies may not be legal. Should ask what other projects you may have been involved in... (lol)
It is a shame because the drag bodies are plentiful around here.. (Ohio) Still Speedway is reasonable. They list the width of the body at widest point at 51" Hmmm; if that is the rear fenderwell then the tire is 1/2 behind that fenderwell.
bob
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Projects yrs truly's been involved in?
Lotsa drag race stuff, couple airplanes, some Landspeed stuff. In other words nuthin that made me a rich man!
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I am attaching a pic of a new Bantam rear engine roadster that ran in 2007 and 2006. Really pretty car, don't remember how fast.
Rex
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Sorry to disapoint you but rear engine modified in the picture is a 34 FORD.........................
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I was blown away with this car when I saw it at Bonneville in 2006. Beautiful car with incredible workmanship. Like JD said it was definitely a '34.
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It used a 4 cylinder "KB" and ran over 200...Think he might have any plans of using all 8 cylinders????? It did need some body clarification while in impouds but they were straighted without too much weeping and knashing of teeth....
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We ran 200 in the first mile and ran out of gear. The plan was to change gears after licensing, but had problems with the other gear sets, so had to go with the 200 mph gears. That was with an unblown TFX 92 running 4 cylinders. Next year we will add a blower to the 4 cylinder and then switch to a V8. The car was built for me by George Fields, Trackmasters car 125. The engine is the same 4 cylinder design which is being run in George's car and was designed by Paul Madsen from DMR car 44. The engine was originally developed and run in DMR's lakester.
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That should be DRM's lakester, car number 44, I posted before I edited. I also wanted to add that the car was built in a year in George's shop, that's from scratch to a running car. Without the effort put in by George (7 day weeks for many months) and the help of others like Paul with the engine work, that would have never happened. On top of that, quality was not sacrificed.
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I knew that!! Man I must have had a few to many or just had taken my daily dose of stupid pills!! My apologies to the guys with the 212 "34" roadster!!!! Neat car and going over 200 with half a hemi is a real feat!!!
Nice car and again sorry for the mistake. BUT your car certainly does show some of the things that can be done in this class, such as the shrouding of the rear wheels by the body which I am sure you could also do with a Bantum, also like you rear defuser and the wing.
Rex