Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: team_cougar on November 25, 2007, 03:01:46 PM
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Hi,
If I convert my Cougar to run on E85, since I'm a hippie type at heart, will it still be in the gas class since I'm using a gas blend?
I haven't gotten my rulebooks yet in the mail, so I don't know if it's already been covered...
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I think this has been covered, and I think it won't be considered "gas" since it's 85% ethanol. And to have it "legal" for gas class you'll have to get it from the event fuel vendor, and that implies the race sanctioning organisation will have to convince the vendor to bring some to the track.
Then there's the misconception that the E85 is "environmentally" friendly, but that's a political discussion and I won't go into it here. If you want to chat -- email me directly.
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Roger that, Slim.
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The question was posted in ECTA so I wonder how they handle gasoline. Is there an event gas? Do they hold a dielectric constant and test? The SCTA standard is a D.C. of 2.3
Q: What is the definition of Dielectric Constant?
A: The dielectric constant (DC) of a substance is a measure of the relative effectiveness of that substance as an electrical insulator. The perfect electrical insulator is a vacuum, which has a DC of 1.00000. By comparison, air has a DC of 1.00059, almost the same as a vacuum, and water has a DC value of 78.2. A dielectric meter measures the relative DC of gasoline by measuring the difference in capacitance of the probe between a standard (usually cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025) and the gasoline sample.
Q: Why is measurement of this characteristic an effective test for gasoline?
A: Gasoline as refined is a mixture of pure hydrocarbons. A unique physical property of a pure hydrocarbon fluid is that its DC is virtually the lowest of any liquid. The addition of power enhancing additives to gasoline, such as some oxygen and nitrogen bearing compounds, cause gasoline's DC to rise dramatically. A gasoline dielectric tester thus provides a simple, reliable way of determining whether a competitor's fuel has been adulterated.
Adding Ethanol to gasoline will increase the oxygen component. Ethanol is C2H5OH. Gasoline formulations don't have oxygen.
Running E85 would give a huge advantage over gasoline.
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Didn't GM Performance run a Cobalt a couple of years ago in the fuel classes with E85 as the fuel of choice and set some records?
It seems to me that a bunch of GM students can race just as hard as anyone on the salt and move to the top of the list in their class. These kids are the future of LSR.
DW .
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So, does this mean that E85 would be placed in an alcohol class despite being a pump fuel?
Or, does it mean I can't run it since I can't get it from the track supplier?
Or both? :?
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Yup, to the former (I'm pretty sure).
Ditto Yup to the latter, unless Rick Gold decides to bring some, and even then I don't know if it'll be legal for gas classes.
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.................... unless Rick Gold decides to bring some, and even then I don't know if it'll be legal for gas classes.
I don't see anyway that it could be considered in the gas class no mater if it came from a pump or Rick. If you read the latest mags, guys are doing really impressive stuff with it that is not possible on gas.
c ya,
Sum
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Thanks guys.
So, what's the octane of the gasoline fuel(s) used at the track?
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I'm not positive what available at Maxton (haven't run there in a year and a half), but at Bonneville there's usually some unleaded 100 and 104, and leaded 110, 114, 117, maybe some more flavors, too. All of the gasolines at the track are allowed in "gas" classes.
If you've got a specific favorite that's made by a different manufacturer -- for instance, you want to run VP -- consider contacting the sanctioning organisation and ask if they will allow you to bring a sealed-at-the-factory can of your flavor choice, open the can while under supervision, fill your tank while being observed, and then have your tank sealed. You might get away with it.
But -- the fuel vendors have a selection available, and since most of the racers will use track gas -- see if you can purchase a sample of the track gas before the meet, tune your motor on that fuel, and then support the venodr by buying from him at the track. That's a good way to do it.
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nope VP wont fly in gas class.... Rick Gold pays dearly to bring gas and fuel to the events and none of the other makers wont come out to help us.... so we should support those venders that support us and buy his fuel.... he will ship 5 gal pails and 15gal mini drums to ya for tuning... rick is also very knowledgable about his products....call him for a chat about what fuels will work for ya.
kent
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It's not a major issue for me. If I convert my car to E85, I can just change the carb and drain the fuel to run gasoline at Maxton.
My 429 is going to run on 87 octane anyway, so I don't think 100+ will be a problem.
I was just wondering.
And, I'm all about supporting people who support LSR. So, I'll just run Gas.
How do I get in touch with the elusive Mr Gold?
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TC, while VP and all the others won't fly at Bonneville, you need to contact someone at ECTA, heck, they might even start E85 racing classes, they are not as locked up as the scta.... :roll:
Contact info is available at the link on the homepage of this site...
have some fun...
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Andy:
Try this address, attention Rick Gold: ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net
Jon
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Who was the individual or company providing the event gas at Maxton for the October meet? Will the same company be there for 2008?
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heck, they might even start E85 racing classes
Just what we need is more classes. Running E85 is about politics, not racing. It runs in the fuel class, not gas. It isn't gasoline and never will be.
There are tons of alternative fuels, and the fuel class is where they belong.
The gasoline class only exists because it's what cars run on. The fact that fuels have evolved doesn't mean they should be incorporated into racing. Event gas was the smartest thing they ever did to eliminate hundreds of hours of work trying to keep everybody on the same level by testing to eliminate cheaters.
Nascar still runs carburetors even though they disappeared long ago. It's about racing, dammit.
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I don't know/remember the name of the guys or their firm -- but they provide Sunoco fuels in assorted flavors. I know Keith's out of the office today -- but maybe he'll see a computer and see this question and answer it, or maybe someone else that knows more than me (and that's a pretty big bunch of folks) will answer your query.
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Slim,
Thanks. Knowing it was Sunoco is a help. We ran his 100 octane in my sons small bore 2 stroke with okay results. I liked it better than the 110 cut 50/50 with 92 pump that we use at home.
John
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if your motor is tuned to run 89 i wouldnt put 100 in it...we tested fuels in one of my vintage Gilera's, it made 11hp on pump and 9hp on race gas... the higher octane race gas burned to slow... combustion shape and cam wouldnt handle more advance....i have found that stock motors like lower octane. when i was racing 50cc 2 strokes in a production class back in the late 80's i was smoking 'um... they tore my ass down every race looking for modificatons... i told everyone of em i was using "Trick racing fuel" and so they did...glad none of 'um saw me filling up my race jug up at the local gas station....LOL
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if your motor is tuned to run 89 i wouldn't put 100 in it...we tested fuels in one of my vintage Gilera's, it made 11hp on pump and 9hp on race gas... the higher octane race gas burned to slow... combustion shape and cam wouldn't handle more advance....i have found that stock motors like lower octane.............LOL
Kent that is one of the hardest things some people have excepting. Since it is "Race gas" it has to make more HP. Wrong.
I was talking to a friend the other day that has an older Z car. He said they put some 110 octane race gas in it once and it would out run anything. I just kept my mouth shut 8-) .
You see it all the time when people have production cars that run just fine on 86/87 octane and they think with no other change than filling up with 91/93 octane they will make more power.
Hey more power to you on getting that streamliner done. I'm going to see if I can go see it if I go through Iowa in late spring, so quit admiring it and pack it up and send it there,
Sum
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>>if your motor is tuned to run 89 i wouldnt put 100 in it <<
neither would I
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I'm just trying to address the issue of using the track's designated fuel, rather than put sand in someone's nether regions for wanting to run E85 in an E85 class.
With a motor tuned to run on E85, the 87 octane is one of the better alternatives after you tune the motor back for gas. But, I can also tune for 100 at the track. It's easier to tune for 100 from 87 than vice versa. The 8.5: 1 compression ratio of the 429 is much more forgiving.
If I give up a few hp, then so be it. I'm not overly concerned since I'm primarily in it this year for the experience and not worried about being competitive.
But, E85 is coming on strong with a lot of racers as a fuel. ECTA may want to consider creating an E85 class. But, that's up to them.
It's their sandbox. I just want to play.
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when i was racing 50cc 2 strokes in a production class back in the late 80's
Sounds like a monkey and a football story, imagine Kent on a 50cc bike.. :-D
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Does anybody know the part# for the ERC unleaded gas they bring to Bonneville?
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Does anybody know the part# for the ERC unleaded gas they bring to Bonneville?
Go to my links page:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillelinks.htm#Land20
Then "Misc",
Sum
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Does anybody know the part# for the ERC unleaded gas they bring to Bonneville?
It is called MULA, currently running the leftover in my mower.....
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MULA=not legal for "gas" class.....
kent
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my memory isnt that good but i think i ran mula at bonneville bought it from rick --then put the gas for my generator in and went 4 mph faster go figure willie buchta
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MULA=not legal for "gas" class.....
kent
Kent it has been legal for the last 2 years on the bike as well as the car..... at Bonneville events, can't speak for EM....
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Scott,
With your history, more than likely yes.
DW
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Given that Keith is off line for a few days, I'll add my limited knowledge -
At Maxton, Keith and Joe strongly urge us to use the vendor gas, but he announces at every driver/rider meeting that IF we bring VF or other fuel in sealed containers, we need to have the vendor seal the tank when we're done refueling. I've always used the Sunoco, but I'm guessing that they have to watch you pour it in your tank from a previously sealed can. It's considered good form to tip them a few $$ if you do that. Also, if you can convince that you have plain old pump gas in your tank, they can choose to seal your tank with the fuel you brought. Again, a tip is good form. Remember, we run on the assumption that we are all honorable people and no one is deliberately cheating. If you can live with a record you stole by cheating - well, I don't think I could sleep soundly.
On E85 - I suspect that it will be "Fuel" for the foreseeable future, but that's an opinion. The characteristics of the fuel are SO different that it just can't run head-to-head with gasoline.
Don't know if that helps.
Dan
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we are all honorable people and no one is deliberately cheating.
EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.
EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.
Once you hang on to that principle, then you set rules accordingly. If racer A can bump the record 20 mph because he isn't running gasoline, how is racer B ever going to break it on gas?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, most of us don't cheat, but some do. If no one cheated we wouldn't have a rule book.
As my daddy used to say, "you can fool some of the people, some of the time . . . and that's enough to make a decent living!"
So, does this mean that E85 would be placed in an alcohol class despite being a pump fuel?
Unapproved gasoline=fuel class. "Pump" fuel means nothing. Gasoline has a Dielectric Constant of around 2.025. Addition of oxygen or anything other than hydrogen or carbon will raise that figure. Despite the 40 some odd chemical flavors of "gasoline" they are all completely hydrogen and carbon. The alcohol in E85 has an oxygen molecule and would send the DC through the roof. Not to mention add a ton of horsepower.
As much as I hear octane mentioned in the same breath as horsepower, I just can't help but laugh. They don't correlate at all. Octane is a measure of anti-knock performance. BTU's indicate heat released from the fuel, and that's horsepower. Rick is the only racing gas vendor that gives that rating. It's in the column called "Heat release per unit weight (bomb calorimeter method)"
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm (http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm)
More about fuel:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2308.0.html
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No Dean, you're wrong. I know for a fact that I am NOT deliberately cheating, and I am one of "everyone". Neither are my friends - people of whom I have specific knowledge. We have a rulebook so we know where to run the thing that we built, or how to build what we're going to build.
At the last meet, I had my front air dam projecting too far in front of the bumper. I set no records, and it will be fixed before I come back. I would not have accepted any records I might have set. But it was a screw-up - I didn't read the rules correctly. Like I said, I have to look at me in the morning, and I REFUSE to compromise myself for an unearned record. If someone can be had that cheap - well, there's a name for that. Look on Hollywood Blvd. and you'll see a bunch of them.
Remember, ECTA exists to prep cars for Bonneville. If someone wants to cheat here, there just going to get caught there anyway, so why bother?
Back to the fuels - I agree with you. There's no way that E85 is equivalent to gasoline. On the Octane deal - Octane doesn't make power. Lack of Octane takes power. If you have enough of it to satisfy your combination, that's all you need. I think the issue with E-85 is the oxygen. That's how N2O and nitromethane work. So no, it can't ever run as a form of gasoline.
My $.02
Dan
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So - did all you boys and girls out there in racerland read the updated rules on "E"xx gas as they were posted on landracing.com earlier today? A whole bunch of this thread just became moot.
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willie, stainless, there was big..ok huge debate about MULA prior to speedweek...we even tried it in the Aprilia.....my thought was if our hard working dedicated gas vendor calls it gas we should allow it, others didnt see it that way, they argued that there are several other gasses that fall within the DC so use one of them.....MULA was disallowed in gas classes as of the Oct (? I think) board meeting... put it in your generator or whatever just dont put it in a vehicle entered in a gas class... it does not fall within the DC specs...if cought using fuel in a gas class you may be suspended for 5 years....
As a side bar, a lot of racing organizations are requiring the use of unleaded race fuels. a few years ago when we were building my Gilera 2 stroke i had a euro GP motor builder set up my motor his was... since the world GP guys have HAD to use unleaded since 2000 he welded and remachined my cylinder head to his specs for UL.....and we used it sucessfully to get a record at elmo....Since MULA is the "only" UL that ERC sells....any one know where i can get a new head for a Gilera cx125?
kent
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willie, stainless, there was big..ok huge debate about MULA prior to speedweek...we even tried it in the Aprilia.....my thought was if our hard working dedicated gas vendor calls it gas we should allow it, others didnt see it that way, they argued that there are several other gasses that fall within the DC so use one of them.....MULA was disallowed in gas classes as of the Oct (? I think) board meeting... put it in your generator or whatever just dont put it in a vehicle entered in a gas class... it does not fall within the DC specs...if cought using fuel in a gas class you may be suspended for 5 years....
As a side bar, a lot of racing organizations are requiring the use of unleaded race fuels. a few years ago when we were building my Gilera 2 stroke i had a euro GP motor builder set up my motor his was... since the world GP guys have HAD to use unleaded since 2000 he welded and remachined my cylinder head to his specs for UL.....and we used it sucessfully to get a record at elmo....Since MULA is the "only" UL that ERC sells....any one know where i can get a new head for a Gilera cx125?
kent
Thanks for the "insider" information, as with most of the crap that comes out of the scta, those of us that are not on the board would never know until we show up at the races. As I read the "new" gas rule, it still seems that if ERC supplies MULA as an event gas, then it is legal. I guess the rule should read ERC MULA is no longer a legal event gas... if that is the official intent! It didn't make unleaded illegal.
I guess lots of things happened in October, we chopped up fairings at an event that were OK as was the next event, the board secretly outlaws MULA....
Any other info us outsiders should know? The BNI members can always use the advance information, thanks.......
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Wow. Somebody needs a hug. :-D
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I don't like or want to criticise posters- except Jack, of course, 'cause he come's back hitting ME harder usually, but hey, STAINLESS, I think your'e getting PARONOID in accusing the SCTA of "SECRET" decisions.
It's probably a more democratic organization than the US Congress-(although there are LOBBY groups) and, don't forget this, it consists of your fellow racers who contribute a lot of FREE time and energy to keeping landspeed racing alive some of whom compete AGAINST each other in the same classes.
You want to bash somebody, get on one of the NHRA or Nausea drag racing websites.
You got a problem with SCTA/BNI? Contact the appropriate commitee member and DIPLOMATICALLY express your concerns!
E85 contains ALCOHOL, and ALCOHOL is listed in the RULE book as a FUEL class fuel.
Trust me, it WON'T be the fuel of the future!
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IB, my post concerned MULA and the info Kent posted, not about E85, I even quoted Kent so all would know what I was talking about. MULA has been a legal ERC furnished gas for several years. I rechecked the official website, can't find any info on a meeting or info outlawing MULA as a legal unleaded racing gasoline. If info from an "insider" was not posted here us "outsiders" (BNI members, no representation, although a larger group than scta members) wouldn't have a clue.... that is my concern.
Rule changes and interpretations happen and it would be nice if that info was announced officially....
Paranoid? probably, since I was one of the victims of the October fairing slaughter! I've heard on this site only, the decision was reversed. The scta members were not required to hack them up at EM... so does it seem like the BNI members are on the short end, naw, we're just paranoid...
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Even tho this does not meet the area of the ECTA the SCTA fuel limit is 15 at El Mirage on the new tester. I believe MULA is under that number. The SCTA minutes may reflect that if you are a SCTA member and your club gives you a copy of the minutes. Good Luck
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Jon Amo is a SCTA member and used to publish the minutes but that went away.
DW
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Jon Amo is a SCTA member and used to publish the minutes but that went away.
DW
Someome mentioned if the SCTA minutes were ever published outside of a very limited group, He would quit.
We are still waiting
The instant real result was a much wider, under the table , E-mail distribution to anybody that evpressed a desire.
As time marches on, all that is required now is to contact the Secretary, and with a push of a button, they regularly arrive. :wink:
" It is always best to ride the horse in the direction he is going."
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HEY! DC of 15!
Bring on the nitromethane! 10% alcohol!
You can throw out all of the gas records. Maybe we should have "pre-2008" records.
The previous records were set with a maximum dielectric constant (DC) of 2.3. Gasoline is tested using cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025 as a test reference. SCTA allowed a maximum of 2.3. This reflects the conductivity of compounds containing only carbon and hydrogen. All gasoline compounds consist of only chains of carbon and hydrogen.
There are very few racing fuels that have a DC even close to 15. Adding oxygenates that will give a DC around 15 will add a bunch of horsepower.
Allowing a DC of 15 means you can run methanol. It also means you can run nitromethane. No? Give me a decent test for nitromethane in gasoline. The rules say no nitrogen bearing compounds, meaning nitromethane. Also ruled out are propylene oxide and ethylene oxide. Good luck testing for those.
testing for the dielectric constant (D.C.) value, color comparisons, specific gravity, gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, and/or other testing methods.
DC is the only realistic test they have. Color comparisons have to be done in a controlled lighting environment to be valid. Specific gravity testing isn't going to tell them anything based on the number of compounds you could possibly run.
SCTA doesn't have the budget to do testing for gas chromatography or mass spectrometry.
They have really let the cat out of the bag on this one. I have no idea why this sounded like a good idea to anyone. Event gas will no doubt be something other than plain gasoline.
Non-event gas, like El Mirage, is going to be like the old wild west.
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EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.
EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.
Once you hang on to that principle, then you set rules accordingly. If racer A can bump the record 20 mph because he isn't running gasoline, how is racer B ever going to break it on gas?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, most of us don't cheat, but some do. If no one cheated we wouldn't have a rule book.
As my daddy used to say, "you can fool some of the people, some of the time . . . and that's enough to make a decent living!"
HEY! DC of 15!
Bring on the nitromethane! 10% alcohol!
You can throw out all of the gas records. Maybe we should have "pre-2008" records.
The previous records were set with a maximum dielectric constant (DC) of 2.3. Gasoline is tested using cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025 as a test reference. SCTA allowed a maximum of 2.3. This reflects the conductivity of compounds containing only carbon and hydrogen. All gasoline compounds consist of only chains of carbon and hydrogen.
There are very few racing fuels that have a DC even close to 15. Adding oxygenates that will give a DC around 15 will add a bunch of horsepower.
They have really let the cat out of the bag on this one. I have no idea why this sounded like a good idea to anyone. Event gas will no doubt be something other than plain gasoline.
Non-event gas, like El Mirage, is going to be like the old wild west.
Hey Dean, maybe that is how they plan to reduce the cheating you think everyone is and should be doing, make everything legal! And you didn't think they had a plan once they learned everyone must be cheating.... :roll:
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Stainless, I apologize for my taking you to task- I have been famous at times for two athletic talents-JUMPING to conclusions and RUNNING off at the mouth. The subject WAS e85 thus my response, BUT I stand behind my statements about contacting the appropriate SCTA/BNI commitee member and I'll say it another way,in your behalf, TAKE THEM TO TASK, diplomatically, of course,'til you get a satisfactory answer to your greivances inwriting. Like Jack says, HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE!
As an INTERESTED BYSTANDER Im quite aware that outsiders-I.E. BNI members-as am I also, feel sometimes that SCTA is a "Good 'Ol Boy" group and you have to go through hoops sometimes before you're accepted. I have documented testimony of some ot that
I equate some members actions in their OFFICIAL capacity as being like the "acting" Corporals we experienced in the Army, when recruits were given a safety-pinned armband and a little authority.
I'm convinced from your posts that you race as fair as you know how.
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Dean,
Looks to me that if you are not using the latest, available gasolines you are doing yourself a disservice. Throw out the gas records? I think not, just watch the gas records climb. First you gotta set a record before your gasoline is tested.
DW
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Dean,
Looks to me that if you are not using the latest, available gasolines you are doing yourself a disservice. Throw out the gas records? I think not, just watch the gas records climb. First you gotta set a record before your gasoline is tested.
DW
Dan, I thought the climbing records were due to advances in all technology, 'cause it can't be we are that much smarter... :|
Anyone think ERC racing gas is just gas? Hey Lurkers, I hope that the scta works out what is allowed as event gas from the ERC trailer prior to speedweek, the clock on the homepage will show you how much time you have....
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DW, the difference in DC in this years rules means a huge increase in horsepower. Unless ERC was providing fuel that was not legal, then fuel adjusted to reach a DC of 15 this year will mean a big jump in speeds if the vehicle is identical to last year.
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hummm...a lot of flyin off the conclusion band wagon here....im kinda busy today but can someone go to the ERC web site and check the DC of avalible fuels and see what will be legal.... check with ya tonight...
love ya
kent
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Dean,
I will agree that 15 is on the high side. The intent of the rewritten rule were to make the rule as written in the book compatible with what is going on at the front lines. ERC has been selling the MULA unleaded gas for some years now and the gas has been accepted from the provider.
We were told at the board meeting that the 15 number would pass if nitro was present. I personally have not done this test but will certaintly do so when we all meet again in May. The rule, as written, does specify that any combination of tests can be used to identify gasoline. If a gas rises to the near limit of 15 you can be sure that we will use further testing to verify the acceptability. This testing can go as far as sending samples to a lab at the competitor's expense.
I still have the time to revise the 15 limit number, what do you suggest? We can hold up the rlebook as long as you guys want to pick away at it.
DW
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I don't understand why the change in the first place. I have been in a number of organizations that have tried to keep gasoline to only gasoline, and the DC is the easiest way to do that. Not as easy as event gas. Event gas is the perfect answer. Instead of having ERC bring what they want, why doesn't SCTA specify certain legal fuels from their inventory and have them bring it.
Anything other than the old DC allows chemists :-D to make it expensive, time consuming and difficult to keep things under control.
Ok, so racer A goes much faster than the old, competitive record. You suspect his fuel might not be legal. Even if the DC is under 15, the tests for other compounds gets difficult in a hurry. Yes, there are portable gas chromatagraphs, that are laboratory quality, expensive to buy and use. Why open that can of worms in the first place?