Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: oz on November 20, 2007, 02:36:00 AM
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I am running a tank under the seat on the bike, which will be running two fuel pumps, one for the carbs one for the NOS system and I was reading that there needs to be a petcock for the gas that can be actuated from a seated position is this nescassary if the gas is pumped rather than static feed (the pumps will both be switched ).Also it says that in Fuel class, Fuel has to be switchable from the handlebars, does this mean electricaly as in arming disarming which isnt a problem or is it a petcock for gas or remote bottle opener I am confused!
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If all your fuels are moved around by electric pumps, and those pumps positively shut off when you actuate the kill switch (commonly a thumb switch, but anything that you can touch without moving hands from the bars is legal), you've met that part of the rule. If those same fuel pumps are positively shut off when the tether/lanyard switch is actuated - you've complied with that rule, too.
If you have a gravity feed system we'd like to see a manually-operated petcock controlled by one of your fingers -- say a thumbed lever connecting to a cable to a petcock, maybe even a spring loaded petcock. That "fuel" rule is especially meant for nitromethane systems, but positive shutoffs are wise anyway.
Don't forget to firesleeve unvalved lines, and don't forget to vent your nitrous blowoff to the outdoors -- preferably a long hard tube to the tail section of the bike. Label the nitrous outlet so a bystander/safety worker doesn't get a frozen finger when it blows!
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Just to clarify the reasoning, if there is a fire the fuel has to be shut off. If there isn't a shut off between the tank and the fuel pump and the fuel line burns through there is no way to stop the fuel flow.
A positive shut off or fire sleeve is required for the fuel line between the tank and pump.
If you have a shut off on the tank, imagine an engine fire and where you are going to stick your hand. The handle bar shut off fixes that problem.
And it's helpful if you know where the tank shut off is. I watched a rider go through tech that had no idea where it was, much less find it quickly.
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dont forget the n o s system -------nitrous oxide bottles and lines are considered part of the fuel system --------n o s system must have a device that shut off the n o s if you become seperated from motorcycle----
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Ok I think I have it straight now except the NOS both pumps will be shut down on the engine kill and lanyard which will kill all the electrics from the battery. any tips on how I can shut a nitrous bottle valve or did you mean the solenoids need to close when the kill/lanyard is activated is it going to need to be a remote bottle closer..Could be awkward as room is getting to be at a prermium now
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solonoid will work as a shut off --cover any unvalved line with fire sleeve --between the bottle and nos solonoid--between gas tank and fuel pump if the fuel pump is your shut off valve --pump and solonoids must loose power at kill switch and lanyard --thats how my bike is set up willie buchta
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Nice one thats a worry of my mind Thanks Willie
OZ
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also any unvalved lines nos or gas need to be fire sleeved --lines from tank to petcock--lines from tank to fuel pump with no petcock --any crossover lines (tank to tank)--and nos line from bottle to nos solenoid--when in dought sleeve it --fire sleeve can be purchaced at your local speed shop hope that helps --i tested it by putting my finger into it and going over it with a torch totally amazing stuff --i dont hear this very often but remember everything in the rule book is a mininum -- sometimes a bare mininum in my opinion--remember it is your ass on the line what is it worth hope i could help willie buchta
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Cheers Willie one more question on the fire sleeve though, The NOS System is s/s braided lines will this need sleeving and from the distribution blocks it is s/s tube not nylon that wont need sleeving will it? Does s/s braided sleeve count as fire sleeving probably not but just thought i would ask while it is on the ajenda.
Thanks again Oz
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Oz, any lines between the source and a shutoff valve / solenoid / fuel pump for any type of fuel/ gas / N2O must be firesleeved. Take some extra with you, just in case they want you to sleeve something else.
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Might want to double check the rulebook but I thought if it was a braided stainless line it did not need fire sleeve. One of the reasons I redid every line with AN fittings and stainless hose.
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Had to install firesleeve on braided stainless. I think it is the line location that tech cares about. L
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yea its not the material of the lines but there location--also watch about running electricial wireing with braided lines -the lines are like a file unless they have some kind of a coating --found that out the hard way willie buchta
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Ok will check on the braided lines might just do em as matter of course which stainless reckons is the way to go but think I might leave the tubes from the distribution blocks to nozzles they are solid stainless tubes they aint going to burn through are they.
Thanks Fellas Oz
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Braided line with a steel wrap is only abrasion resistant and the braid also strengthens the inside material to support it and allow for higher working pressures.
The inside material (rubber, nylon, Teflon, etc.) is still subject to damage from heat because the braided wrap offers very little in the way of insulation qualities.
Treat it just like there was no braid and you will comply with the intent.
Remember, lines that carry oil pressure are also subject to the same environment and at usually higher pressures.
Fail one of those, and you have added fuel to the fire.
You decide.
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Ok will check on the braided lines might just do em as matter of course which stainless reckons is the way to go but think I might leave the tubes from the distribution blocks to nozzles they are solid stainless tubes they aint going to burn through are they.
Thanks Fellas Oz
Oz, the distribution blocks are after the pumps and solenoids, no firesleeve requirement.
We used solid stainless lines from the blocks to nozzles on one of our motors. We had issues with the things not vibrating at the same frequency, so check regularly for cracks and leaks. Most of the event gases will leave a stain. The next one we built we used #3 stainless braid line, yes it was more expensive, but we didn't spend a lot of time on complicated bends and no issues with cracks.
There are torque specs for B nuts, be careful not to over-tighten them if you use solid line as that starts a crack. Don't build straight lines, put an expansion bend or a 90 degree bend in all of them.
Just our experience, other experiences may vary....
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Nice one that did concern me actually as there is no facility on the distribution blocks for support and the solenoids are biguns. When you set the bike up with the braided lines did you have to change the injectors or is there a way around it coz stainless does have a habit of cracking with vibration also you mention event gases does this mean when i eventually get out there I wont have to travell to Reno or Salt lake city to get go go gas.
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ERC has brought all types of fuels to the events for many years. Almost any fuel or gas you need will be on the salt.
If you can install a hard line on your injector, you can install a braided one. We used #3 since it fit directly on the N2O injector we had.
Pay attention to your pill size selection and flow everything, every #26 jet does not necessarily flow the same amount. The correct mixture will make the motor sing, a little lean will make it smoke.... but only for a second or 2...
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Rich is your friend is ingrained forever in my mind now, is the braided line the same as used in braking systems ptfe lined or is it something different,Do they seat ok on the jets with those little brass ferules as used in braking systems as they usually have a small tube inserted into them or does the jet kinda go into that?
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We used the #3 ptfe line with steel AN ends. The AN ends seat against the jet that is inserted in the N2O injector. We used these
http://www.holley.com/13700NOS.asp
placed in the intake track after the carbs, spraying directly into the valves.
The jets you can see on the same website were brass and formed the seat for the AN fitting.
Don't trust the mixture suggested by the manufacturers for jet selection, can't stress that enough or too many times.... They don't think about N2O for more than a couple of seconds, you will be using it longer at Bonneville. If you use their jet combinations, run a higher dynamic fuel pressure than they suggest. We used a combination of jets and fuel pressures to ensure proper mixtures.
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Looks like the same nozzles, mine are s/s but thats neither here or there, iwas intending on using an external fuel injector pump i think it will run @ 3bar but dont quote me on that as I aint bought it yet and I was going to run the system off the bike first to calculate the ratio of gas/nitrous used 5-1 I think you mentioned in our previous conversation and will start with a nozzle that should deliver around 40-50 hp calculate the weight drop in nitrous and then work it so i get 5 times the drop in weight in gas as its the only way i can figure in doing it.
On another subject a good freind of mine who prepares rally cars has suggested fogging water into the airbox tohelp with the altitude variation and any chances of detination with the nitrous, not methanol and water just water,which raises another question if you use water does that limit you to fuel class or is water ok to run in gas class.
Complicated aint it i think i might have to put in another 10 hp just to carry the weight of all the pumps.
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Looks like the same nozzles, mine are s/s but thats neither here or there, iwas intending on using an external fuel injector pump i think it will run @ 3bar but dont quote me on that as I aint bought it yet and I was going to run the system off the bike first to calculate the ratio of gas/nitrous used 5-1 I think you mentioned in our previous conversation and will start with a nozzle that should deliver around 40-50 hp calculate the weight drop in nitrous and then work it so i get 5 times the drop in weight in gas as its the only way i can figure in doing it.
On another subject a good freind of mine who prepares rally cars has suggested fogging water into the airbox tohelp with the altitude variation and any chances of detination with the nitrous, not methanol and water just water,which raises another question if you use water does that limit you to fuel class or is water ok to run in gas class.
Complicated aint it i think i might have to put in another 10 hp just to carry the weight of all the pumps.
Here water injection is ok with gas and won't change your class, but I don't understand the question as it sounds like you are thinking of nitrous only and that will be the fuel class. There you could run a methanol/water injection with no problem.
Are you planning on running both gas and fuel?? If so you would just need to show them (drink it) that there is water only in the water injection. You do that and get it sealed at the fuel truck.
c ya,
Sum
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just water but thinkin about it whats methanol and orange like can you drink that and yes i was /am still thinkin about running in both classes
cheers Sum
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just water but thinkin about it whats methanol and orange like can you drink that and yes i was /am still thinkin about running in both classes
cheers Sum
methanol and orange .... no don't drink that it can be bad for your eyes....
ethanol and orange, yep, or grape, with grape we mixed it in a large bucket, called it purple Jesus... the first sip would always make you say Jesus......
So if you want to use ethanol, you could sample it without health problems, except maybe catching your breath....
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Methanol and orange tastes like death.
Stick with the ethanol.
More than one idiot in a lab has died drinking the wrong one. Don't just label it alcohol. :-D
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Didn't I read someplace that ethanol (as sold for fuel) has a couple of percent of something-or-other in it to make it not drinkable? I don't remember if it makes you go blind, or grows hair on your palms, or what -- but I think there's something added so you don't try making mixed drinks with it as you're fueling the race vehicle.
Caveat emptor!
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Didn't I read someplace that ethanol (as sold for fuel) has a couple of percent of something-or-other in it to make it not drinkable? I don't remember if it makes you go blind, or grows hair on your palms, or what -- but I think there's something added so you don't try making mixed drinks with it as you're fueling the race vehicle.
Caveat emptor!
You can buy Everclear 95% ethanol at the liquor store.
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Jon, you must be thinking of E85, I think it is definitely not drinkable, probably not even pleasant to siphon....
The ethanol we had was 99% medical grade called out by the Tech Order to clean the IR window on the airplane...
Don't know what the other 1% was but I think it was what made walking difficult after a couple....
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Ok orange wont work purple jesus sounds quite nice what about coke or a splash of lime or use of Homer Simpsons patent Chilli eating wax throat technique!Seriously is a bit of water a good idea as i am going to make another tank this wekend and fit it if it is?