Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Bob Drury on November 19, 2007, 02:44:50 PM
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As I read the current rule book, Under Section 3.A.3, it states "The structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2" per side ...........". My question is does this mean from padded bracing or the roll cage itself? If it means the roll cage structure itself, then I bet there isn't a legal cage out there in LSR land. My helmet measures 11 inches wide, and that would mean a 15 inch i.d. cage. The second question I have is if you have a full roll cage such as in Figure 1 on page 24, would a newer style NASCAR seat with side head restraints be sufficient? Adding a funny car style cage to this type of roll cage is not an easy task in a finished car. I realize that these are questions best answered by direct correspondence with the tech committee, but seeing as the new rule is now in effect, I thought this forum might provide some insight from Dan or J.D. that could enlighten us all. Thanx, Bob
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This is what I did with the old style cage in my Vega. There will be one more tube within two inches of the right hand ear flap. It will be padded. I was more or less told the standard ear flaps are not sturdy enough to meet the requirements by themselves. Never could find anyone from the Association to give me a firm answer. But from tech at WoS I believe this will be alright. Now that it's posted I realize the ear flaps were not on it when I took the picture. Imiagen that they are in place.
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As I read the current rule book, Under Section 3.A.3, it states "The structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2" per side ...........". My question is does this mean from padded bracing or the roll cage itself? If it means the roll cage structure itself, then I bet there isn't a legal cage out there in LSR land. My helmet measures 11 inches wide, and that would mean a 15 inch i.d. cage. Thanx, Bob
I'll take that bet... ours and quite a few other special construction class vehicles allow less than an inch of lateral movement
The rule includes to the SFI padding
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As I read the current rule book, Under Section 3.A.3, it states "The structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2" per side ...........". My question is does this mean from padded bracing or the roll cage itself? If it means the roll cage structure itself, then I bet there isn't a legal cage out there in LSR land. My helmet measures 11 inches wide, and that would mean a 15 inch i.d. cage. Thanx, Bob
I'll take that bet... ours and quite a few other special construction class vehicles allow less than an inch of lateral movement
The rule includes to the SFI padding
Is it too late to get in on the bet??????
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/2006-Const-20.jpg)
This is Hooley's.
Tom I feel you can make an adjustable structure inside the cage with approved padding on it. I might have side pieces with padding that can be moved in towards the helmet and be adjusted to work with helmets of various widths. I personally want mine to be very close to the helmet (less than the 2 inches) like Tom Burkland has suggested here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-tburkland-1.html
c ya,
Sum
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I asked Lee K. at WF if a NASCAR type seat with the wings to contain head movement and the rib supports to keep upper body in place was O.K. Answer, Yes. We're putting a few small tubes up to them for added support in an altered Firebird. They can be purchased on E-bay as cheap as a few hun. Be sure it's not out of Mark Martins car. (unless you wiegh 120)
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Knowing that this was coming I decided to get a jump. I figured the dimensions I needed to get to just over 1" on each side of my helmet. I welded up some support bars for SFI padding with saddle mounts that bolt to the existing Roll Cage helmet bars. I showed them to several Inspectors at El Mirage in Tech last weekend and was told this was fine.
Tom
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Knowing that this was coming I decided to get a jump. I figured the dimensions I needed to get to just over 1" on each side of my helmet. I welded up some support bars for SFI padding with saddle mounts that bolt to the existing Roll Cage helmet bars. I showed them to several Inspectors at El Mirage in Tech last weekend and was told this was fine.
Tom
Nice work Tom, good seeing you at El M,
Sum
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I used some spare roll cage bars with padding. Being very restricted with exit room the left side (exit side) bar is mounted on a solid bar "puck" and both the bar and support puck are drilled and held together with a spring pin.
The pin is connected to a cable and to exit the car you pull the cable, this pulls the pin to the lateral head restraint bar allowing it to drop off and releases the door net.
Both the door net and left side lateral bar can be removed independently.
This system works really nice especially in our tight confines.
One of the suggestions the Burk make was that I continue the removable side bar forward and in front of the helmet to prevent forward head movement but really liked the idea that the exit did not have to be further restricted by the addition of lateral head bars. Something like this is not needed for all cars but for my tiny turd box made the difference in 7 second exits as apposed to 45. (http://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Picture_0631.jpg?8244)
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Hotknuts thanks for sharing your innovative approach- am involved in a rollbar upgrade as we speak and am always looking for solutions.
The head rest- is that bovine hide or canine, cause it kinda reminds me of my buddy's old hounddog, Mike.
"Pass that thing around one more time, chaps, before it goes out."
Keith Richards
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check these out
http://www.ispseats.com/gpage3.html
i'm thinking using these in my studebaker build with a funny car cage
robbie
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A thought,
As we restrict head movement ( semi-good thing) one thing that becomes more of an issue is getting in and out of the car. Obviously getting in is not the big issue as you have time in your favor. With my modified cage I noticed more of a problem getting into the car. Probably more of a procedure issue. I had been using a "horse collar" but did not @ the Nov. ElMo. It could have made exiting the car more difficult. It would have added nothing to lateral motion but would have helped limit forward head motion. If a hans or similar devise is required I may be not able to get IN or OUT of the car, but I would be safe.
Tom
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restricting head movement to reduce head acceleration and neck injuries are a good idea but what you guys are doing could kill you... Rich if your Vega went up in the air and came down on the passinger door and lets say just recieved a 2G impact your body would shift and probably snap your neck with your new head restraint.... you guys need to look at also restraining your upper torso or sholders.... Dont let your pretty aluminum nascar seat give you a false sence of security thinking your body wont move around..
kent
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Who hasn't seen the in car camera shot of Richard Petty steering to the wall with a tire going down to reduce the impact of the hit that was going to happen soon ?
As NASCAR wall hits go it was pretty gentle, but the impact stretched his bod to the extent that his head rang the bell on the far windshield post.
The impact was a real shot and the crew chief asked him on the radio if he was alright.
With his suddenly slurred speech he answered that he was "OK".
It is obvious he suffered cumulative brain damage.
When you build restraints, consider what is going to happen to the unrestrained driver parts that will leave without you and often come back broken.
In a recent smack to the wall, Ms. Force recorded a 65 G momentary hit that makes you wonder what would happen to a loose fitted and un-padded containment.
Try hitting the table with a closed fist from 1 inch away and compare that with hitting it again from 1 foot away.
Repeat the 1 inch part against the old style insulation rubber and then try the SFI spec foam.
Please, try it your self at home.
If you have spare driver parts, I guess that would be OK too. :wink:
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Good points from Kent and a useful one from Jack without the guesswork...
Everyone should look at Hooley's cage. It appears to restrict driver movement head and shoulders, looks pretty good to me
We restrict movement as much as possible
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restricting head movement to reduce head acceleration and neck injuries are a good idea but what you guys are doing could kill you... Rich if your Vega went up in the air and came down on the passinger door and lets say just recieved a 2G impact your body would shift and probably snap your neck with your new head restraint.... you guys need to look at also restraining your upper torso or sholders.... Dont let your pretty aluminum nascar seat give you a false sence of security thinking your body wont move around..
kent
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Good point. We built the fairlane with a Kirkey seat,helmet, and sholder restraint system. We set it up paying close attention to helmet and sholder clearance in relation to each other. When Celia drives, we move the seat and remount the sholder restraints to fit her since she is about half my size. This is all incorperated into a dual mounting system to the cage.I do wonder if I could get in and out of the car with a Hans device.
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Kent; Thank you for your input. I just went out and looked at the thing and will see what I can come up with as a shoulder restraint. From the hips down I have the driveshaft tunnel to lean on.
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Originally I considered the Hanns and not the cable pull release lateral bar I put in my car. I was cautioned by an authority that the Hanns device was designed for other forms of racing and did not provide the protection needed to prevent injuries that have been sustained in LSR.
I don’t really know much about the Hanns, but the reasons that I was given seemed very plausible at the time.
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.............I was cautioned by an authority that the Hanns device was designed for other forms of racing and did not provide the protection needed to prevent injuries that have been sustained in LSR.....................
I would feel good about using one in a vehicle where the seat is close to the same position as in a roundy round car, but wonder about using one in a car with a reclined seat or in most lakesters or streamliners, but that is all based on just a gut feeling.
c ya,
Sum
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There are several different models of the HANS, some designed for a reclining position. The HANS is universally used in the faster formula cars and Indy type cars where the driver is substantially reclined.
Pete
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There are several different models of the HANS, some designed for a reclining position. The HANS is universally used in the faster formula cars and Indy type cars where the driver is substantially reclined.
Pete
Good point, I didn't think about those cars. I think I might do some research based on that.
Thanks,
Sum
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I use a seat insert that was made by Bald Spot Sport http://www.baldspotsports.com They make most of the systems that are used by Indy cars and Le Mans cars and others. I have used their inserts in road racing and have walked away from some nasty crashes, which left the car completely destroyed.
I had one made for my roadster and also an Indy style insert for the helmet that goes with a quick release Hans device. I am not trying to be a pitchman for these guys, but do your research before you settle on one thing. As Kent pointed out its easy to get hurt with some of the systems that are out their. It’s your life and you owe it to your self.
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I'm not sure where the stories come from that the HANS is not suited for certain kinds of racing- in some cases it's a poor excuse for a person to cheap out- and as many have said- "What's your a** worth?"
You know it's COMPULSORY in F-1, Champcar and in NASCAR - with the Hutchens Device (and that may have changed to strictly HANS by now).
For several years, and I can only speak for NHRA PONTIAC-sponsored drivers one of who I'm aquainted with - they HAD to use the HANS, or no Pontiac support!
Do some research!
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My understanding is NASCAR tightened up the deflection standards,
and the original Hutchins device didn't meet the new spec.