Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: willieworld on October 12, 2007, 11:56:10 PM
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Has anybody heard anything about rule changes for sidecars. Four or five people have told me that there is going to be some changes this year. I am building a couple of new bikes and would like to know before I commit myself to a particular design.
Thanks Willie Buchta
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Oh, Boy...........You'l get nothing from me on this one...................................................................................
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I have nothing to back this up, however I have heard that ballast or more ballast will be required.
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Haven't heard anything but be ready to trim something.
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I keep pretty close to the subject and the only mention I have seen or heard was in the last set of SCTA meeting minutes that I receive regularly in-spite of the wishes of some.
It will be interesting to see what and how it happens.
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yes there will be changes. no i dont know what they will be yet
kent
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yes there will be changes. no i dont know what they will be yet
kent
Isn't that indicative of the real problem ?
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If I buy this sidecar (E-Bay 200159923000) will I be able to race it with SCTA/BNI????????
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Buy it and you'll find out in May of next year whether you're legal or not. I think motorcycle rule changes are done in Area 51 conditions.
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At the SCTA meeting in September some motorcycle proposals were brought up to be taken back to the clubs for discussion. Sounded like they want to eliminate/ modify some classes. So if you are interested in what is going on I suggest you attend your next club meeting to find out. It could get very interesting.
Tom G.
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What about BNI members only??????
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What about BNI members only??????
While non-SCTA members make up the majority of the MC field, you are treated as the "unwashed" when it comes to rule changes.
In this day and age of instant electronic communications, the hand in /mail in form has no accountability.
With an e-mail copy of an appropriate and suitably complete form, copies can be sent to others and a suitable action can also be documented.
A read receipt option is better than just flushing it to the wind.
A central point can also serve as an abeyance watchdog, to monitor the timeliness of the response.
Keep it foolproof and it tends to be more honest too.
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Maybe I'm too simplistic, but souldn't the sidecar rules reflect the FIM rules governing racing sidecars like what t the Isle of Man, etc. ?
This is definition thing and some BODY as in santioning body-not somebody-as in a person with Solomon's wisdom ,or anybody's wisdom other than Pres Bush make the call.
Problem, an elephant is a MOUSE designed by a comittee.
I could be wrong, (Jack usually thinks so) but I could have sworn, as I stood on the long course starting line I saw, out of the corner of my eye, a two wheeled object with nothing more than what looked like my grandkid's skate board wheel on a thin left side boom, leave the starting line on the short course at WFs.
At least let's define sidecars where a monkey (sidecar language meaning human, not a ZOO creature-although knowing MC people for over 50 years, that could be interchangeable) can concievably ride them even if safety prohibits.
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I could have sworn, as I stood on the long course starting line I saw, out of the corner of my eye, a two wheeled object with nothing more than what looked like my grandkid's skate board wheel on a thin left side boom, leave the starting line on the short course at WFs.
Sounds about right. I think your eyes are OK. :wink:
Tom G.
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Thanks for the verification.
Tom, we'll have to talk sometimes about S-21 and 22s , 270s, 290s and 325s and Adventurer cylinder heads. Gene Adams knew!
Probably still does!
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#1 I'm a gear grinder and a member of the SCTA and unless I'm mistaken that's the minimum requirement to race at El mirage unless you're a guest.
#2 If somebody was running at The World Finals, as I was, and had a sidecar. If they wanted a record it had to meet all the rules,such as, wheel size, Passenger accomodations and track width. The sidecar classes have to meet more rules then any of the other motorcycle classes. They have to meet all the two wheel motorcycle rules and the sidecar rules. We have two more races at El Mirage this season and I have until May to build a bike for my wife and myself to race next year and if I have to build it twice It will take twice as long and will cost twice the amount of money.
I think that the SCTA is doing an excellent job of running a race program at El Mirage and Bonneville. The only thing that I see lacking is communication and that might be the fault of the racers as much as the fault of the officers. That was my intent here to find out if anybody knew about any rule changes. I have read the minutes of the last meeting and there was a discussion of eliminating all the slow classes and all the sidecar classes that were a wheel on a stick, whatever that means.
So Let me put this another way.....
Has anybody heard anything about sidecar rule changes???
Willie Buchta
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I could have sworn, as I stood on the long course starting line I saw, out of the corner of my eye, a two wheeled object with nothing more than what looked like my grandkid's skate board wheel on a thin left side boom, leave the starting line on the short course at WFs.
See, there ya go !
He says left and you say right. LOL
Hidden in the middle is the truth.
The original sidecar rules for SCTA were written by a "World Class" subject matter expert that is now considered to be an "outsider" and was reflective of real racing hacks.
He has been running LSR and other forms of bikes for longer than many participants are old.
Now the rule has been adjusted to the wishes of the original, and immediate benefactor of that change, that also used minimums he set to get # 1 in SCTA.
The bastardisation of the original rules and intent is commonly known as the "Slide Car".
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At our meeting it was mentioned that there were some sidecar changes proposed. Not a lot of details. Removal of some of the slow sidecar classes. And the "wheel on a stick" was mentioned. Which I don't understand as there are rules in place that cover platform size etc. "Body" was also mentioned. As our club reps are from the species that has to have four wheels to keep them upright I don't think a lot of attention was paid to the proposed motorcyle rule changes. I will be seeking more details. Although getting a record may be easier than getting details of the changes. If I wait for the rulebook to come out in June it may be too late.
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As a "outsider" (with a big mouth).................... in Jack's days as M/C rules and Tech chief we raced real sidecars with SCTA/BNI.......................................
Now, however, to see "real" sidecars one has to attend the BUB Speed Trials..................................
Willie, you are right, they do cost mucho dollars to build. (I have seen your "sidecar" and it is
very nice and built to SCTA/BNI rules)
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The original sidecar rules for SCTA were written by a "World Class" subject matter expert that is now considered to be an "outsider" and was reflective of real racing hacks.
Might that have been Mike Parti? I remember him running side cars way back, with a passenger as I recall.
Tom G.
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Tom, we'll have to talk sometimes about S-21 and 22s , 270s, 290s and 325s and Adventurer cylinder heads. Gene Adams knew!
Probably still does!
Sounds good to me. I own Gene's old Jr. Fuel motor from the late 60's early 70's.
Tom G.
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This will be good... :roll:
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The original sidecar rules for SCTA were written by a "World Class" subject matter expert that is now considered to be an "outsider" and was reflective of real racing hacks.
Might that have been Mike Parti? I remember him running side cars way back, with a passenger as I recall.
Tom G.
Mike didn't write the rules I mentioned but was a colorful and well respected participant.
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Sidecar rules are so simple, Race Real Sidecar, not a wheel on a stick! A platform that can accomadate a real passanger, real fenders on sidecar wheels, and the option to carry a real passanger or somewere around 132 lbs. of weight (from FIM rules). There I said it in a couple of sentences not fourty seven pages of obscure rules to fit personal whims, sheesh!! Want real sidecar rules?, check with Bak 189 (oh boy, I'm in trouble now!!)
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The SCTA has platform dimensions, sidecar wheel covers etc in place. Why do we have to carry a passenger? Or ballast? SCTA records are not recognized by the F.I.M. So why should we play by their rules? If you race a four door sedan should you be required to carry three passengers? Because a sidecar is a passenger carrying device that doesn't mean that you should carry one. If the rules are changed to require that ballast be carried what becomes of the current records? Are they simply to be scrapped and start with a blank sheet? The sidecar rules as per current rulebook are fine. Leave them alone. Changes tend to confuse the heirarchy.
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If either Larry Coleman or Mike Bakker want to "hang on" to my 216+ mph sidecare I am happy to do the staring..lets see if the SCTA will "lettuce"
J
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Actually the rules were fine in 1988 when we did carry passangers at SCTA (I currently have three SCTA sidecar records and one AMA) At that time the SCTA had rules that allowed for purpose built sidecars, I.E. SC/AG. Many changes were made that lumped sidecars into one class with no class distiniction for inovation other than streamliners. I race sidecars because I am an dedicated sidecar racer of almost fourty years. I don't care about using the rule book to simply gain points, which for some is what lsr sidecars have unfortunatly become . In my opinon the rules were far better before they were changed. Change them yet again? argueable.
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The rules did read "The operator must demonstrate they can be accommodated aboard the sidecar to guarantee a minimum size."
That was pretty simple.
The changes to obviously only get points were pretty simple too.
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Right on John...Do we have a volunteer to ride or should I say to hang on? Or I'll take you on my sidecar it only runs 132.
The only problem with that for all of you who have driven a sidecar know that when you accelerate the bike tries to pass the sidecar pulling you in the direction of the sidecar. When you put on the brakes the sidecar tries to pass the bike pulling the bike in the opposite direction. Making for a very dangerous situation, especially in a medium like dirt or salt. When I first started running my side car this year at El Mirage my sidecar wheel on the scale weighed 126 pounds and pulled very very hard to the left under accelration. I took off weight a little at a time until I got to 62 pounds on the sidecar wheel. And now the bike no longer pulls to the left of right under acceleration or deacceleration. It is much more stable and I feel more comfortable with the handling of the bike.
Just for your information I did go to the FIM web site and check the rules for the sidecar and my sidecar exceeds all the minimums for FIM sidecar. There are 53 pages for regulations on sidecar and 39 pages of technical regulations for sidecar. That's 91 pages of regulations. SCTA has 8 pages for general regulations and technical regulations. FIM has 13 pages of medical requirements for drivers and riders and 47 pages of anti doping rules including random blood testing. If you would like to read them for yourself go to www.fim.ch/EN/default.asp you can read them there.
Anyone that races at Bonneville or El Mirage that has a sidecar or a "Wheel on a Stick" and can get through tech is exceeding the FIM requirements for sidecar passenger requirements. The nice thing about racing in the SCTA events is thatyou can be an individual in your building and design of your race vehicle whatever it may be. All of the FIM sidecar bikes are all identical other than the paint and the decals.
That being said...I started landspeed racing this year on May 5th and I haven't missed a race yet. I even went to the BUB speed trials but I rode my street bike up just to watch. That two hour turn around run the wrong direction thing has got that meet very very disorganized. SCTA has it all together compared to that crew. This year we have met some awfully nice people and they weren't all gear grinders. Some were from other clubs. Every time we needed any kind of help someone has always been there. From fixing a flat tire to refilling my NOS bottle people have gone out of their way to help. And I thank them.
Just hope that the sidecar rules don't get changed to drastically. This year my goal was to just get through the year learn all the ropes and if I was lucky made set a record. So far so good. I'm in the process of building my wife and myself a bike for next year(both sidecars). If anybody needs any help look for the white mailbox with the names Willie and Sheri on it. We will be glad to lend a hand. We are usually camped about an 1/8 mile from the tech trailer along the return road. I'd like to talk to anybody I can who has a sidecar. See you at El Mirage on October 20th....
Willie Buchta
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John, the NAME is Bob Bakker............also I do not race them (sidecars) anymore, I just built them...
(at 71 years old, I leave the driving to the younger sidecar racers like driver Larry Coleman and passenger Warren Ryan)
Your 216mph with your "wheel on a stick" is certainly outstanding............but I don't think you can run those speeds with a passenger......you may not admitt it but you are "flying the chair wheel"...... with a passenger on the platform you would run a lower speed with the chair wheel on the ground.........in addition with a passenger your
bike would not steer properly as it is presently
set up and build. I have been building and racing sidecars longer then you are old..........and I think by now I know of what I speak.
On talking to Kent,he indicated that at 155mph on his 750c.c. "wheel on a stick" sidecar the sidecar wheel was in the air most of the run......
Kent, does not tell lies. Could it be that is what the SCTA/BNI M/C rules committee is looking at with talk about "Ballist"???
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Sorry, Willie if you have a handling problem
with 126lbs on the sidecar wheel.......you have a BAD problem.........a properly build outfit will lrun straight with a 170lbs passenger in the chair.
Also you noted that your outfit (very nice)
met all FIM regs. ......if you had a problem with 126lbs......what would it handle like with the
the FIM required 60kg......??????
Feel free to PM me before you start the wife's new outfit......be glad to help.............Good luck....
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John, the NAME is Bob Bakker............also I do not race them (sidecars) anymore, I just built them...
(at 71 years old, I leave the driving to the younger sidecar racers like driver Larry Coleman and passenger Warren Ryan)
Your 216mph with your "wheel on a stick" is certainly outstanding............but I don't think you can run those speeds with a passenger......you may not admitt it but you are "flying the chair wheel"...... with a passenger on the platform you would run a lower speed with the chair wheel on the ground.........in addition with a passenger your
bike would not steer properly as it is presently
set up and build. I have been building and racing sidecars longer then you are old..........and I think by now I know of what I speak.
On talking to Kent,he indicated that at 155mph on his 750c.c. "wheel on a stick" sidecar the sidecar wheel was in the air most of the run......
Kent, does not tell lies. Could it be that is what the SCTA/BNI M/C rules committee is looking at with talk about "Ballist"???
Bob,
I am truly sorry about the name game, ( I do not know where I got "Mike" from)
If you think I am Flying the sidecar wheel you are either drinking heavily or certainly mistaken...with a square tire like I run (off of a Car) if I ran the weighted down sidecar while the third wheel was in the air I would have major handling issues.
If anyone that doubts if the third wheel is touching the ground at speed I will offer to take a day off work prior to a meet and strap a gps to their helmet and they can hang on and tell me if they feel that the wheel is "flying"..I placed 50 more pounds to the sidecar to make sure that it had enough weight to keep it on the ground as I did not want to have to deal with more issues than I would already have.
Bob, Fridays are good for me..and I am sure I have a spare helmet in your size or Larrys, or Warren..Bob you have expressed your displeasure in the the fact that I run my much faster bike without a passenger however I am certain I would run faster than your current top speed if Warren or Larry were to "hang" on my bike at either Elmo or Bonne. We both have Turbo three wheelers and both are Busa engines right?
J
PS. Forgot to mention that we have set a few records El Mirage faster than any sidecar record anywhere in the world including the fastest Blown records at Bonneville. As I mentioned to you before, I would like to have a big rig like yours however I choose to run the same rules as you do and I seem to run a bit faster than most..see you at Bonneville next year.
J
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Dear John.......first you call me Mike..now you call me a drunk!!!!!!!! Oh well.......................................
Regarding taking a speed ride in your three wheeler........no way.........neither Larry, Warren or myself would ever consider riding with someone
who has no experience driving/riding a "sidecar."
(with a passenger it becomes a sidecar)
As far as "mine is faster than yours"........today
yes,............but there is always tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(example: Jason's $10.000 at this years BUB).........
John, you are still our hero...(somewhat)..............
John, have a good life.................................................
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Bob,
All is good...there will always be someone faster and I aggree with you on almost everything however making a blind statement that I am flying the sidecar wheel on my "wheel on a stick as you call it" at a speed greater than 215 mph seems ludicrus to me and for as much experiance as you have I do not see where you come up with your previous statement?
If you look back at the other sidecars running at either Elmo or Bonneville I would like to think ours is the closest to a passenger carrying rig out there and it has run at fast as 193.711 for a timed mile years ago at Bonneville. Bob did a great job building the platform and it handles great and since it is smaller in size it is not as prone to being blown around when the sidewind comes in.
Never called you a drunkard however I did give you the opportunity to claim you made a mistake..I know I make enough of them that is for darn sure.
Regarding being on ones fan list, I would love to help you get that Red rig of your up to speed as I feel it could go even faster than mine with a little bit of work and a little bit more money.
Now lets go run that rig...bring it to El Mo..?
Take care Bob..
J
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baki89 how big is your motor and how fast will your sidecar go thanks willie buchta
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Hello Willie: Our present sidecar is stock Busa displacement.............W/Tubo.............................
We are using a after- market Ign. system that has given us a lot of problems in the past.......I think we now have it sorted out............todate we have only been at 155mph......but we expect at least another 30mph over that....(w/Passenger).
Our "old" Kawa. outfit ran 187mph. back n 1991
(W/Passenger)....................Good luck.......and be carefull.............................................................................
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Went to El Mirage this weekend went to the rules committee meeting . Couldn't say anything but listened. There's a proposed side car rule change. The rules committee proposes the rules be changed and they usually are. The old rule 7.I.11 states sidecar platform must be able to accommodate a forward/facing passenger size and weight. The new rule will add sidecar platform must be able to accommodate a kneeling forward/facing passenger size and weight. Another rule which is not directed at sidecars but will affect me because I run wire wheels, tubeless tires when ran with a tube won't lose a speed rating. I don't know what the exact wording will be and I'm assuming that they are only talking about bias ply tires. I'd like to thank everybody for replying on this site, whether I agree with them or not.
thanks Willie Buchta 349B
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Willie...thanks, for the info. on the sidecar rule changes....................................
BUB sidecar rules on sidecar platform.......
!0C. Passenger Platform:
The sidecar platform must be large enough to allow a passenger to ride in the sidecar. The minimum dimensions of the passenger's space on the platform are 32" long by 12" wide. A shield must cover the sidecar wheel and tire on the inside of the passenger platform.
If carrying a passsenger: There must be a handhold mounted for the passenger. The sidecar mounting hardware and/or ridged bars may not be used as designated handholds. Passengers must ride in kneeling or prone position.
In lieu of passenger: A minimum ballast or weight of 60kg (approx. 132lbs) must be securely mounted in the sidecar.......................................
Straight forward and easy to understand..........
Right!!!!!!!
It will be interesting to see how the SCTA/BNI M/C rules people write up their NEW sidecar rules................................................................................
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The SCTA sidecar rules have the same dimensions for the sidecar platform. No handhold requirements which makes perfect sense as no passenger is being carried. And thankfully no silly ballast rquirement. I, again, ask the question as the SCTA records are not recognised by the FIM why should we have to carry ballast? In the car classes it is not required to carry three passengers if the car has the capacity to carry four people. Nor is it required to carry ballast. I rode a bike and sidecar on the road for many years and I didn't carry a passenger all the time. I don't have a problem with the SCTA sidecar rules as written. That is if they have enough sense to leave them alone.
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You and I are on the same page.
Willie Buchta
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The SCTA sidecar rules have the same dimensions for the sidecar platform. No handhold requirements which makes perfect sense as no passenger is being carried. And thankfully no silly ballast rquirement. I, again, ask the question as the SCTA records are not recognised by the FIM why should we have to carry ballast? In the car classes it is not required to carry three passengers if the car has the capacity to carry four people. Nor is it required to carry ballast. I rode a bike and sidecar on the road for many years and I didn't carry a passenger all the time. I don't have a problem with the SCTA sidecar rules as written. That is if they have enough sense to leave them alone.
Bingo,
"Johnny tell him what he has won!"
J
PS. so if I add a "hand hold" that will slow me down 60+ mph? Willy and Nortonist get it..do you?
J
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The only problem is if I have to kneel on my sidecar I won't have room for my nitrous, my little ice cooler and my cappacinno machine...And who's gonna drive my bike while I'm kneeling?
Willie
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The only problem is if I have to kneel on my sidecar I won't have room for my nitrous, my little ice cooler and my cappacinno machine...And who's gonna drive my bike while I'm kneeling?
Willie
Willie,
Let's "roll"
J
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I Like this ...John Noonan, Dynoroom, Dean Los Angeles, racefanwfo, bak189 and 5 Guests are viewing this board.
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O.K............Guys...........you keep running your "wheel on a stick" at SCTA/BNI...................and we will keep running our "real sidecar" with AMA/FIM....
I just thought you all might have been interested
in reading rules that came about from input from the "racers".
P.S. Willie and Nortonist....."you are on the same page"????.....Hold on to your "sidecar stick" ....the page is being turned over as I speak.......................
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Bob,
I am not certain that Denis is going to keep spending big dollars to run the Bub's AMA/FIM meet after this year coming (2008) so I hope that I can see you guys run at either an SCTA met at either Bonne or El Mirage if the Bub's meet runs out when the aggreement with FIM runs out next year.
J
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Bob,
I curious to know why you keep calling the SCTA sidecars "a wheel on a stick"? The platform dimensions are the same as BUB. If you want to see a record breaking "wheel on a stick" look up some photos of Bob Wright(?) and his Vincent with a genuine wheel on a stick. And at the time FIM approved.
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Bob,
I curious to know why you keep calling the SCTA sidecars "a wheel on a stick"? The platform dimensions are the same as BUB. If you want to see a record breaking "wheel on a stick" look up some photos of Bob Wright(?) and his Vincent with a genuine wheel on a stick. And at the time FIM approved.
Do you have a link..? I would like to make a poster...
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John Noonan, Nortonist 592, 4-barrel Mike, willieworld, Freud, bak189, Dynoroom and 6 Guests with "wheel on a sticks" are viewing this board. :-D
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I have a photo somewhere in all the junk I have collected over the years. As soon as I find it I'll post it. At least not running on Sunday saves me a thrash for next month. I might find time to search.
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I have a photo somewhere in all the junk I have collected over the years. As soon as I find it I'll post it. At least not running on Sunday saves me a thrash for next month. I might find time to search.
Thanks,
J
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Sorry John, Getting myself mixed up with Russel Wright and Bob Burns. As Maxwell Smart would say "Missed it by that much." Heres a shot of Bob Burns, with I believe, Russel Wright's fairing. If I'm right he ran 188+ with this outfit in 1955. In a hasty search I found this photo. Not the one I had in mind but it does show the "wheel on a stick" sidecar that was FIM approved at that time.
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Thanks for the pictures, I wish my rig was that aero..I met Russel in Australia and he was great and so full of information.
I have a great picture somewhere of Sam Russel and myself...I wil see if I can find it and post it.
J
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Nortonist.......I wrote you a PM..............................
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WELL!!!!...................any news on the sidecar changes for 2008 with SCTA ???........................
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yes i was late to the meeting there was something else that will effect everyone steering is only allowed to turn 15 degrees left and15 right from straight ahead not sure of the wording - willie buchta
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Thanks Willie.....15 degrees steering lock, should be no real problem.....that's about all a Dustbin
fairing will allow...........................................................
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does the scta sidecar rules have anything to do with the bub speed trials --i thought that they had differant rules or was i wrong--if you set a record at bub this year will it go into the scta rule book next year --thanks willie buchta
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Good question, Willie.......No SCTA has their own club record book.........BUB = AMA/FIM has their own National and International records.............
the only connection is that the sidecar rules are somewhat the same.....this is due to the fact that the person who wrote the sidecar rules for SCTA
and AMA for land speed racing is one and the same...........me...........Since the late 1990's and early
2000's I have been out of the sidecar rule picture with SCTA ....however, about 75% of the rules you are now racing under I wrote back in 1979.
The big difference is that AMA/FIM allows for passengers.........or if you do not choose to run a passenger 60kg ballast in the outfit. I hope this explains it for you.....................................................
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did the scta sidecar bikes ever have to carry a passanger or the added weight --and what kind of a front end do you use on your sidecar bikes --im looking for something a little lower profile than what i run--the rake on my bike was actually dictated by the front end i had and a very tight budget thanks williebuchta
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In 1979 Mike Parti and myself ran the first sidecars at Bonneville.....at that time they were the sidecars we used for roadracing.(now our outfits are special build for LSR) we ran with passsengers from 1979 to 1987...then SCTA in their wisdom said "no more passengers" I won't go into all that was involved in that ruling.........
so after that we raced our outfits with a complete passenger platform.....and at times with a dummy called Elmo (that's another story) complete with leathers and helmet.....until our team started racing with BUB.
Regarding the frt. forks..............., we have build streamliner sidecars using leading link forks....we have build rear engine sidecars using cut down tele-forks..presently we are using cut-down Rickman Moto-Cross forks....using a 30 degree rake...........64inch wheel base........32 inch
sidecar (center of rear tire to center of sidecar tire) 13 inch lead of the sidecar spindle over the rear axcle........this appears to be a happy medium
for us.....no secrets. The forks you have on the scrap Buell can be used if shortened (you only need approx. 2 inch travel) Oh, yes, we have used 10 " wheels...13'' 5'' (on the sidecar) we are now using 16" front...15" rear....5" in the chair
After SCTA "outlawed" passengers we ran 150lbs
ballast in the chair at Bonneville to handle the cross winds.....but todate SCTA has not required ballast.....however,Ifeel it would make for a safer sidecar if not using a passenger. ......................
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At the SCTA meeting in September some motorcycle proposals were brought up to be taken back to the clubs for discussion. Sounded like they want to eliminate/ modify some classes. So if you are interested in what is going on I suggest you attend your next club meeting to find out. It could get very interesting.
Tom G.
It sure would be nice to know about proposed rule changes (class eliminations) as they are proposed. I am starting a new build in the 650cc (Suzuli GSXR600) class and would sure like to know that class would still be there when I finish my build. Holding this stuff close to the vest until it becomes the rule doesn't seem right to us "unwashed" far away members. As Jack said, communication in this electronic era is not difficult.
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You have an instant electronic PM waiting for you here. :wink:
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Got it Jack, thanks
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John, I'm interested,I didn't realise you raced a sidecar.Have you added a chair to the turbo busa? I have been roadracing sidecars for 20 years,with Evelyne as passenger for 8 years. I would love to do a serious sidecar for the salt. Why are people not talking about LCR type outfits with control arm suspension and thinner tyres than for roadracing. I haven't tralled through all the photos but most seem to be modified solos
cheers Bones
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At El Mirage today, Fritz Kott had the best example of what SCTA is looking for in a Sidecar.
It was a mix of something old, something new, something borrowed, and something brew.
The mix of Foreign and Domestic should satisfy every taste.
Does anybody have a picture to share with the World ? :-D
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At El Mirage today, Fritz Kott had the best example of what SCTA is looking for in a Sidecar.
It was a mix of something old, something new, something borrowed, and something brew.
The mix of Foreign and Domestic should satisfy every taste.
Does anybody have a picture to share with the World ? :-D
No picture here. however I did see it for my with my own eyes and it is a thing of beauty!
Scott
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Went by me on the return road -- I thought he was just moving to Phelan.
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When not used for racing, or taking people to church, it is the Phelan Shuttle Service that runs from Uptown to Downtown.
It ia also available for Chartered Tours of the Histerical Sites in the Community. :wink:
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With the various discussion regarding sidecar design I thought I would post a couple of pics of the latest machine from Bak189. We are now carring a passanger at the BUB meet. In days gone by this would have been an SCAG machine as it is purpose built. I like this designation better instead of lumping sidecars together, except for streamliners.
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I missfired on two pictures, here is a frontal view
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Thanks, Larry..............looking good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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shouldnt that thing have a Kal Gard sticker on the side of her?
kent
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Kent.........for 2008.....maybe a Kal Gard paint job...
who knows.....................................................................
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bak189 maybi i will come to bub in 08 -what is the 1000cc sidecar pushrod and the 500 cc sidecar pushrod records records there--i wouldnt want to risk a passenger but the option is to carry the ballest --is that actual weight or the weight of the sidecar wheel thanks willie buchta
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Willie..........it would be great for you to bring your sidecars to the BUB........the ballast is actual weight of 60kg (132lbs.)
The 500c.c. sidecar is open (you run a speed and it is a record no minimums)
The 1000c.c. pushrod is also a open record (again... you run a speed and it is a record, no minimums)
There are two sidecar records in the 1000c.c. class....one being a vintage record at 96mph the other a streamliner at 168mph.
These would be AMA National Records...................
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looking for sponsers as we speak--if that happens and i can afford it i would love to thanks willie buchta
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Hi all,
My name is Frank, I'm living in France.
I don't want to re-activate a topic just for the pleasure of... re-activating.
With 3 friends of mine, we are currently working on a 2008 entry,
and I've just discovered that some M/C and sidecar rules changes
are in the process of be discussed.
Since our entry 2008 is planned to be a 50cc SC/VG, I've seen different posts about :
- a minimum 70 mph speed that could newly be adopted.
- some "slowest classes" cancelations, considering that 50cc is not really what you could clasify in the fastest jobs,
- some ballast considerations that could appear in order to compensate the lack of passenger in comparision with FIM rules.
- ...
I've already sent a mail to Russ O'Daly, but he is probably too busy in this rules validation period.
So please, could a fellow racer or official tell me wether we have to stop right now,
or keep on working confidently ?
Thank you in advance for your answer(s).
Frank.
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scta only requires enough ballest to make your sidecar stable--i run 24 lbs of ballest --my sidecar wheel weighs 62 lbs--there is a rule about unresrticted exit --if you have ristricted exit you must run in the streamline sidecar class--post a picture if you can-- dont worry about the speed limit --i think that is a long term goal -- good luck willie buchta
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Willie,
Thank you very much for answering. I've seen your numerous posts on those rules problems.
No sidecar pics to be shown at the moment.
We have studied the rules to determine which class was the best adapted for us.
We want to race a "could have been a period Motobecane sidecar".
We will build the chassis starting from a 1954 moped chassis, lenghtened and lowered.
We will be partially streamlined, but won't have restricted exit.
Regarding the engine could you please indicate me if we are allowed to use a 2-stroke expansion-chamber exhaust. In a first mail, Russ told me the intake air box and exhaust weren't considered as part of the chassis for vintage classification (like they are in bikes classes), but as part of the engine for sidecars. Does this mean that the exhaust has to be pré-1955 ?
And what about the slowest classes possible cancelations ?
Frank.
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I have been told that the class cancellations have died a natural death.
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im with nortonist on that--i dont race in vintage so ill let someone that races in vintage answer that one --we are all talking about scta(speed week and world finals) arnt we because bub (speed trials) has there own rules willie buchta
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Lots of ideas on building a racing sidecar, makes the class interesting:wheel on a stick-weight-what to do? Here is a picture of what we consider a "real" sidecar, designed to carry a real passanger ( BUB event of course)
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good to see someone will be challenging the guys who have the slowest speed record... not for their record, just for the slowest record
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Heres what the F.I.M. considered a "real" sidecar in 1954. Bob Burns' Vincent "real" sidecar.(http://)(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4097/img107dl7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
P.S. Can someone explain why a sidecar is only "real" if it carries a passenger? Coupes, sedans, and Roadsters were designed to carry more than one but I don't see anyone bitchin' about them not carrying passengers or the equivelant in ballast.
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Bob Burns "wheel on a stick" had ballast in the sidecar................so the AMA/FIM ballast and/or passenger rule is not so new............................
Hey, Stainless........."slowest"??????
How is 187+mph w/passenger.......(documented)
Hey, Nortonist........where is your sidecar??????
Hey, Willie ......your turn!!!!!
We consider a "real" racing sidecar should carry a passenger.........you all may not.......... and race a "wheel on a stick" BUT we feel the sidecar racers should be given the option....passenger OR ballast..........Anything wrong with that????????
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It will be out in May. God willin' and the clutter don't rise.(http://)(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7500/img0088aw2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7500/img0088aw2.811c6b84b3.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=508&i=img0088aw2.jpg)
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Nortonist, watch a sidecar race, roadracing, speedway, motocross, and I think you will undrestand why sidecar racers believe that it is a team sport.
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Of course, Those forms of sidecar racing require a passenger. I had a sidecar on the road for years. It was everyday transport. I didn't carry a passenger when I was going to work. My wife was the usual passenger and that was mainly on the weekend. We are going i a straight line and don't need a passenger. And as I've said before we aren't running to F.I.M. rules or records so whats the point of carrying a passenger or ballast? Its the SCTA's ball so we play by their rules. I'm still waiting for the answer to my original question. If a sedan can carry four people, why doesn't the SCTA require passengers or ballast?
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2 bodies aboard a vehicle in LSR competition is not required to establish top speed.
The exposure of another person, would more than double the injury rate at the expense of the rest of the field and event.
Required ballast is not a part of any other class and is a joke if their are no scale procedures in place, therefore it has been considered optional.
If a promoter wishes to expand participation for a profit motive, they are more likely to prostitute themselves with all manor of extras like a "Dance Off".
The SCTA and the Salt surface are at the saturation point now and more stuff will just dilute the objective and reduce the lifespan of the event.
"Save the Salt" has a lot more real meaning than watching trainloads of it leaving town, and long lines for marginal conditions that get people and the sport hurt.
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We have studied the rules to determine which class was the best adapted for us.
Since our entry 2008 is planned to be a 50cc SC/VG,
We want to race a "could have been a period Motobecane sidecar".
We will build the chassis starting from a 1954 moped chassis, lenghtened and lowered.
And what about the slowest classes possible cancelations ?
Frank.
Bak, you are really sensitive about this sidecar thing, I didn't say your sidecar would be slow, I was referring to these guys, unless you think a 50cc sidecar will be doing 187....
Just so you know I am not anti sidecar, during WOS I helped a sidecar guy prep his motor to get measured and put it back together.
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Nortonist....your sidecar looks great......looks a lot like the outfit Wink build, and that one certainly worked good for Wink........................
He did have one problem when he took it to SCTA Bonneville......M/C Tech. passed it..........but the
"car guys" wanted him to bail out of the outfit
at a lower speed to show he could..........................
Wink "no way".......he did run it at the BUB and got top sidecar time and the money.
Stainless.....you are right about me being "sensitive about this sidecar thing".........I have been pushing forward the sport around the world for over 50 years now..............and I got
this "sensitive" from fighting the so called
"powers"................So sorry.....................................
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..................I'm still waiting for the answer to my original question. If a sedan can carry four people, why doesn't the SCTA require passengers or ballast?
Believe me if the car is going to go fast it will have ballast in it. Looking forward to seeing your sidecar run,
Sum
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Willie,
Thank you very much for answering. I've seen your numerous posts on those rules problems.
No sidecar pics to be shown at the moment.
We have studied the rules to determine which class was the best adapted for us.
We want to race a "could have been a period Motobecane sidecar".
We will build the chassis starting from a 1954 moped chassis, lenghtened and lowered.
We will be partially streamlined, but won't have restricted exit.
Regarding the engine could you please indicate me if we are allowed to use a 2-stroke expansion-chamber exhaust. In a first mail, Russ told me the intake air box and exhaust weren't considered as part of the chassis for vintage classification (like they are in bikes classes), but as part of the engine for sidecars. Does this mean that the exhaust has to be pré-1955 ?
And what about the slowest classes possible cancellations ?
Frank.
Frank,
The entire engine, including the exhaust, airbox and carb has to be 100% vintage unit. For a 2 stroke the cylinder has to be vintage as well so no "major" welding up and moving the ports. externally it has to appear 100% stock. Thats why the class is so dang slow!
They really didn't have that whole expansion chamber or transfer port thing figured out in 1955!
People joke about the slow speeds but running 40 MPH at 2,900 ft altitude on a "stock" 52 year old 50cc moped is actually very difficult.
Cant wait to see the pics!
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car guys have nothing to do with motorcycle tech--there is a rule in sidecar (scta) if your exit is restricted you have to run in the streamliner sidecar class --if tech (motorcycle) wanted you to demonstrate unrestricted exit you would do that in tech but certainly not under way --
motorcycle riders are a minority in land speed racing and sidecar racers are a minority in that minority --yes even at a all motorcycle event we are still a minority in the big picture --we all have different tastes so lets all agree to disagree and move on to better things --there was 500 entrys at s.w. in 07-- when they start restricting the entries who do you think is going to be outside looking in--before you say it bob i know there is bub but how long is that going to last --i was there this year and never did see the bub liner run -- the people there could not handle 500 entries --this land speed thing is attracting more people every year what the limit is i dont know but i am sure there is at some point --at speed week i made 7 runs this year - 1 rookie run- 3 down runs -3 record runs between there were days that i was in line for 4 hours or more it was all worth it though - sheri said get off the computer and do some work on her bike - got to go willie buchta
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529
you are way, way, way, way, wrong....... unless you are running vintage "PRODUCTION" (which most side cars are not) you can do any modification you want.... you can change carbs, pipes, and do whatever porting and welding you want as long as you use original castings. you can modify the crap out of it, even modify external apperance. on a 2 stroke you can weld bigger transfers on the outside, port the crap out of it and even run a watercooled head and big cone expantion chamber.....for the most part our vintage records arnt slow, heck Dale Martin even won an SCTA championship with a vintage bike.
kent
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529
you are way, way, way, way, wrong....... unless you are running vintage "PRODUCTION" (which most side cars are not) you can do any modification you want....
Kent, you are absolutely correct. I was thinking vintage production not vintage gas. I stand corrected.
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.....................- sheri said get off the computer and do some work on her bike - got to go willie buchta
She is starting to sound like Kent (http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/cry2.gif),
Sum
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BAD EXAMPLE
Dale Martin set his own minimums, gave them another thought and tried to lower even those.
The result was predictable, the board denied him further reductions, and he ran fast enough anyway to get #1 bike at EM. :x
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yeaaa dont you guys get it --dont ride a fox upstream -dont let the horse guard the hen house --dont rollerscate in a buffalo heard--couldnt resist sorry willie buchta
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If any of the car guys want me to do a low speed bail out that won't be a problem. Providing they are willing to do the same with their car. The truth is there are only two people who will tell me to do a bail out. Tom Evans or Russ O'Daly.
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Regarding the vintage 50c.c. sidecar outfit.........
at one time SCTA/BNI had Producton, Modified,
Altered in the sidecar class.......but in their wisdom around the early 1990's they put them all together in "SC......... a sidecar class"
There is now SC-G, SC-BG, SC-F, SC-BF....................
so the way I understand it (like Kent noted).......
in the sidecar class with SCTA/BNI it is wide
open...........as far as mods...................................
I am right now looking at a trophy from SCTA/BNI for a sidecar record I set in 1991 in
SC-ABF (todate that record still stands) at that
time my Kawa/Turbo outfit was considered
A............Of course again in their wisdom....
they did not retire the class.....they just put it altogether and called it "sidecar class" Oh,
Well..........now you see why I am "Sensitive about this sidecar thing"......................................................
These changes were made back in the 1990's
without any input or asking........they just showed up in the next years rule book...............so this lack of input for the present M/C rules is nothing new.......it is just business as usual.........................
Right................................................................................
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REMARKABLE ! :-(
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Seems to me a couple of years ago a side-car bike did a spin a short distance from the start and the rider did a bail out or pitch off, got up and bowed to the crowd. I believe the side car attacmhment to the bike frame and sort of steered the side car and the bike different directions. :-D
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there is a video of it somewhere i have watched it a many times --the problem with a sidecar is when you accelerate the bike tries to pass the sidecar when you slow down the sidecar tries to pass the bike the heaver the sidecar the bigger the problem --in the video it looks to me that upon shifting the rear wheel spun and the bike passed the sidecar fortunately he wasnt going very fast just my openion willie buchta
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At least it proved one thing to the BNI officials
that our sidecar driver Larry Coleman had no problem exiting the outfit (there had been some
talk, regarding being able to exit the outfit safely)
When Larry shifted into second gear and the Turbo came on boost.....it broke the rear-wheel
adjuster on the chain side.....causing the rear-wheel turn somewhat sideway..............................
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yea i watched the video many times and always thought it was 1st to 2nd wheel spin --every time i shift from 1st to 2nd i do it very slowly never saw that the chain adjuster brake the video wasnt that clear --yes he exited without restriction willie buchta
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I'm back in the north end of the globe and catching up with the latest news on the sidecar rules. BAK189 left out a class a few posts back, SCS. I'm sort of late getting to this, but the "platform" that "could" carry a passenger is of interest to me. My liner has a reverse wing shape between the bike and outrigger wheel of adequate size to meet the dimentional rule, however hand holds and some reinforcement to the upper surfaces will be required to have a 5'7" 160lb person climb on board and havago. As a streamlined sidecar is this what will be required to pass tech?
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Welcome home..............Not sure....but I believe you will have to have at least the platform size with SCTA/BNI............BUB no problem...just the 60kg ballast.
If I recall McLeish's sidecar liner had a "wing" that met the plarform size when he raced with SCTA/BNI.
Check with Russ at SCTA and he will get back to you right away!!!.......................................................
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peg leg i can only answer for the scta rules that i follow --the platform has to be 12 in by 32 in and must support the weight of a kneeling forward faceing passenger of 5 ft 7 in 170 lbs --you dont have to carry a passenger and only enough ballast to make the vehicle stable what you need is a rule book --the o8 updates can be found at this site on the home page --if i can help e-mail me thanks willie buchta
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If those paying attention at the rules meeting will recall (I think you were there Willie)... the new platform clarification came about because people were obstructing a clean platform with NOS bottles, lead weights, and one guy had a ton of electric boxes mounted on it....the intent of the original rule was to have a clean platform that "would" accommodate a passenger... when racers "crowded" this area a "clarification" was adopted and presented at the rules meeting and received unanimous vote by committee and non committee members in attendance... IMO a curved platform or an airfoil would be acceptable as long as you don’t mount "crap" on top of it... you can mount it below it, but not on top....
kent
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kent i was at the rules committe meeting --there was some talk of clutter on the sidecar platform and everyone looked at me as i had a NOS bottle electric fuel pump and solenoids mounted on my platform (a real disadvantege aero wise) but i was still within the rules --my platform would still support the weight of a forward faceing passenger --the rule change only added kneeling and size and weight of 5 ft 7in and 170 lbs --at tech last year i demonstrated that it could be easily done --i weigh 174 lbs and am 5 ft 11 in and will kneel this year rather than stand --as far as i know unless you guys passed some secret rules the only sidecar rule that changed for 08 is the one im discussing here -i see no rule that says i cant mount a NOS bottle a fuel pump a ice chest or anything else as long as i can kneel face forward and weigh 170 lbs and am 5 ft 7 in tall --- i will always go out of my way to stick to the rules if i missed something show me where it says so-- i spent a year listening to people talk about the unwritten rule and the spirit of the rule most of them were just making stuff up -- sorry about the spelling willie buchta