Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: Flyboy on July 17, 2007, 01:42:58 AM
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Could people please tell me the major advantages of wet versus dry? And what size bottle/bottles should one use if it can't go under the seat?
It appears to me the dry system is cheaper, easier to put on but not very efficient.
The wet is more expensive, harder to put on, but offers more efficiency. What are most people running? Comments?
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Need to know what its going on--dry is for a fuel injected motor and you need some way to bump fuel pressure to add fuel in conjunction with nitrous. You do not want to go lean, things burn/break.
Wet system adds fuel with nitrous, 2 solenoids, extra fuel pump etc, but better way to add lots of nitrous safely.
Look at www.suzukihayabusa.org or www.dragbike.com in their nitrous sections,lots of info.
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i never used dry.... isn't it only good for tiny shots like 30 or 40... any thing less than a hun is a waist of time..!.... i think its kinda risky without the proper amount of fuel. dont waist your time and go for the real thing. right joe?
kent
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Flyboy, I am not sure how the ZX14 reacts to the dry shot, but I would suggest nothing less than a "modified" wet shot if not full wet for LSR.
The modified wet shot incorporates a electronic device that will increase the duty cycle of your injectors to compensate for the nitrous. Check out http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/fi01.asp
A true dry shot relies upon the inlet air temp sensor (IAT) to pick up the decreased temperature of the inlet air charge (the nitrogen of the nitrous) when nitrous is introduced to the airbox. The limitation that Kent spoke of is the ability of the IAT to read the change and the range of influance the IAT has on the fueling through the ECU. That is why dry shots are limited to 20-40 hp and usually used for short durations.
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I've run both wet & dry nitrous systems on some of our record setting engines at Bonneville. If your using efi it's easy to add 150 hp with a dry system. We've run as much as 400 hp with a wet system but it's not as easy as it sounds. This would be for cars so if your talking about bikes I'm not the guy to ask.
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true dry shot is NOT relying on an IAT sensor to try to
get the system to compensate appropriately.............
that's a mickey mouse roulette game............
flyboy.....its a matter of application......
bottle size et al......is all dependent on how much
hp ya wanna make and for how long..........
Joe :)
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thats what i said... 30 or 40 shot ain't worth it....I put a 200 shot on my 600 once...... once...lol
kent
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Yep Kent, every now and then you can stuff a little too much of a good thing into a motor. When I turned up the juice on the 1.1L in the lakester the 3 of the Carrillos lived through it... :roll: :roll:
200 in a 600 doesn't leave much room for regular air. :-o :-D
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Another question-
I understand a high compression ratio is not desirable for running nitrous and that most bikes should keep them stock..
But what about porting the heads? Is there any benefit to doing it if you are running nitrous? Thanks in advance--
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oh man... a dedicated nos motor is way different than in asp motor.. no it not about compression ratio.. its modifying the combustion chamber, bigger ex valves, different plugs, different ign timing, and way different cam timing. you will have a hard time finding someone who figured it out to actually tell you everything that made his motor live. Its very expensive cheep hp..lol
kent
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:-D
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Another question-
I understand a high compression ratio is not desirable for running nitrous and that most bikes should keep them stock..
But what about porting the heads? Is there any benefit to doing it if you are running nitrous? Thanks in advance--
I run a high compression Pro-Mod 1397cc motor with a Ward Vortex Head in my Busa. I use a full wet system at about 150-200hp. I spray it for over 14 seconds. When I do it right, I go fast. When I don't, I don't.
This coming year I have a Dry shot at about 60hp with an instant rich system for the 1st stage. Then the wet system for the second stage. Should go faster yet.
Guy
Guy
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Guy,
Just wanted to see how long that setup would have lasted at the salt... 14 seconds is a relatively short period of time...
The guys that have been successful with it on the salt run the juice for 3-4 consecutive miles.. You can calculate the seconds in that at over 200 mph...
Jon
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Being a nitrous rookie I figure 27 sec./mile at 225 mph. I have been told a 2# will get you 30 to 40 seconds on a four cylinder motor. So if one runs a 2# shots on both sides of one's bike then it is assumed he would have good acceleration mile 4-6. If the wheel starts spinning on mile 4 then one would have a mile to re gain his traction. Do you vets see any problem with this reasoning? Please let me hear you.
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So are you saying with 2 2# bottles you are going to run from the 4-5 and the 5-6 so two full miles??? At what HP Level??? That is the Key....
Jon
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its often helpful to bench test your flow rates to know
what the heck is going on..........
using the jet(s) you desire let it flow for x amount of time.......
accurately weigh before and after, now you know your
flow rate (n20 consumption per unit time)........
invest in piston company stock........
:)
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flyboy
thats the great thing about land speed racing... you can try your assumptions... if its advise your looking for... start with 2 sets of pistons!!!!
kent
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Nitrous has lots of problems not mentioned here for sustained use. First it relies on the fact that the bottle pressure is what regulates flow through the jet. Problem is it is not constant. The second you turn it on it drops and the nitrous in the bottle has to boil off to raise the pressure back up. you have to balance bottle sizes according to how much you plan on using per second so the pressure does not fall. another way is to use a nitrogen bottle and regulator to hold the pressure constant works well but bulky and expensive for a bike. so the example listed of needing 2 pounds to make the run and adding an extra bottle is in the right direction testing the flow with the bottle on a scale might reveal that initially the engine is lean and slowly gets richer as the pressure starts to fall. I would not run nitrous without datalogging bottle pressure.
Dry and wet systems each have their good and bad points. dry simple and if you have a well thought out efi sytem that can add the correct amount of fuel easy to use. They do not or should not rely on the air temp sensor though LOL.. wet systems work well also and most likely to find them in the larger power levels. One gottcha in big power nitrous systems is the nozzle icing under high humdity. The fuel in the same nozzle can help with this to some degree as it is warm.. I have sprayed 300+ hp for 4 3/4 miles in one car it was a tough thing to keep right 10 seconds much easier with twice that amount.. don't forget you can also adjust the 'hit' by the distance between the solenoid and the metering block and nozzles..longer is softer..
Dave
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Being a nitrous rookie I figure 27 sec./mile at 225 mph. I have been told a 2# will get you 30 to 40 seconds on a four cylinder motor. So if one runs a 2# shots on both sides of one's bike then it is assumed he would have good acceleration mile 4-6. If the wheel starts spinning on mile 4 then one would have a mile to re gain his traction. Do you vets see any problem with this reasoning? Please let me hear you.
You need to work on your clock, miles take about 16 seconds at 225 :?
If you are burning 3 lbs per minute you are probably making 30-35 HP max. You will probably want to use 8-10 lbs to get the power you need. Listen to Joe A about checking flow for N20 and fuel. Forget the stuff the manufacturers put out and do the math for yourself. With the money you make after you buy piston stock, buy rod stock... :roll:
Oh yea, good luck, let us know how things turn out, see ya on the salt 8-)
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Flyboy, I don't like your train of thought: "If the wheel starts spinning on mile 4 then one would have a mile to re gain his traction." -- from sad experience. I waited 'til I was about at the 3 1/2 to push the button, and the back tire lit up when the full hit hit. I pedaled it -- but not enough, so the back tire stayed spinning through most of the 4-5. Yes, I qualified -- but also yes, I heated up the tire from so much spinning that I blistered it and spent my time in impound scrounging a spare tire and re-gearing 'cause the tire I found was a different size.
I've gone to a slower hit and wheelspin light and hope it doesn't happen again.
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flyboy, hopefully what you can garner from this
is that many folks falsely believe ya just bolt on
a dry shot or whatever and its easy hp........
its not that easy, at least for 2-5 miles..........
it would be nearly impossible for folks here to give you
all the subtle issues that come to bear.......
:)
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nos is great for a 5th gear power wheelie on a street bike.. its also great fun for a 10 sec 1/4 mile...
but boy oh boy will it be a learning experience at the 3 mile marker...
kent
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Joea--
You're right and that's why this website is such a valuable tool for sources of information from guys like you and others. Life is short and it's not like we can go to the salts every other week to try out our theories and assumptions. I don't like to re-invent the wheel and that is why I ask a lot of questions. You vets have gathered valuable information over the years and many of you like to share it. In return I pass on my limited knowledge of LSR to the guys coming up behind me.
Having say that I acknowledge that pistons and other valuable components may just melt away with steady nitrous use over an extended period of time, ie. +- three miles. Has anyone done any research on at what period of time one can spray stock components and not reach that extreme temperature where something can melt? In an airplane it's about 425 degrees CHT that I start to worry about piston and component damage. Can one spray for 10 seconds on and 5 seconds off as an example? Does 5 seconds allow sufficient cooling? I know this is hypothetical as there are many variables like different nozzle sizes. etc. Does anyone have a personal rule of thumb? Has anyone oversprayed and suffered engine failure? What did you do wrong? Thanks--
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Disregard--
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Flyboy:
Here's what can happen. Folks have told me that I shouldn't bother keeping the damaged parts -- I do anyway, just to be able to give graphic examples of what can happen.
I had planned to mosey down the course with the fat mixture (using a dumb ECU that didn't allow me to switch programs while underway) and hit the button when I got to the 3 1/2. I pushed the button -- and about 8 seconds later three spark plugs had done their "disposable fuse" thing -- but one of them didn't die soon enough, or the hot metal of the decomposing electrodes kept the fire going -- and so there went a piston.
If you're running a dry shot system, remember that the gas is going into the airbox -- and therefore you don't have instantaneous "on" and "off", so your idea of hitting the button for XX seconds, then releasing for YY seconds won't necessarily work -- it takes a finite amount of time for the nitrous to reach full concentration, and also a finite time for it to clear out before you're back to gasoline only.
Or think of it this way: Nitrous can be your best friend -- or your worst enemy. It makes the change back and forth very rapidly. . .
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Fly, Boy!
Just a note that keeping full throttle on for a mile past the 5 will certainly get someone's attention.
Stan Back
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flyboy........its not often so much about temperatures
as it is cylinder pressures not timed correctly...........
you can motor down the 5 mile course all day long at relatively
modest or relatively heavy nitrous jetting......and proper set up.....
is as much about detonation is it can be about preignition
it can happen at way rich...and cold egts
be careful, there are lots of nitrous experts out there
you need to figure out how to be your own expert...your
on your way by gathering opinions...
MOST people have had the combustion process get out of control(at some point)
with nitrous and lose pistons and other parts...........
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Stan Back: Flyboy runs the BUB meet so he does run 6 miles. Flyboy: Last year you ran a stock motorcycle well within its' design capabilities. That is the beginner's course and I applaud you for racing; most only talk about it. To go fast, really fast is the big leagues and requires dedication, time and $$$ . The fact that you are inquiring about NO2 in July means you are way behind the curve. At this point a simple dry kit ( Muzzy should have one) with extra capacity would be all you could do for Sept. Maybe 50 extra HP and that would get you over 200. An accomplishment in itself. Serious racers build a dedicated bike for Bonneville. Whether you wish to sacrifice your ZX14 for speed is your decision. NO2 is the hardest method. The turbo has proven the easiest but the records are all a challenge. That leaves the all engine classes. I am sure a ZX14 could set records in the 1350 classes. Yes I know the engine is too big but the crank could be destroked as part of the build. Plenty of time after Sept. to start for next year. If it was easy, everybody would do it. :-D
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Larry you are very profound. I am behind the power curve as I own a number of businesses. But last year I didn't even own a motorcycle license until June when I passed the DMV driving test on my 14 with 50 miles on it. I like to set goals and then go after them. That's what keeps me feeling young. Thanks for putting up with my questions. :)
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Stop by and see me on the salt, stop by and see Joe on the salt. Everyone is trying to tell you it is not as easy as the advertisements make it seem. The typical N20 run on the strip or street is less than 5 seconds. The typical salt run is 10 times that. :-o
On-off will cause you a lot of problems. The competitive set up for Bonneville would probably preclude using that bike on the street.
come by and chat, I know all the secrets, most have been revealed to you already, but I have almost as many parts in my dead pile as Joe, More than Slim... People with thousands and thousands of dollars worth of N20 experience have replied... :wink:
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I would HIGHLY suggest not running the same plug Jon W ran as posted above....
Jon
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awh Jon... ya don't like those dual projected tip glow plugs..lol or should we just call them detonators?
kent
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Jon it sounds like you want to tell your story. Go ahead. If you can prevent "one wasted trip to Bonneville" for another rider, I'm sure many others would like to hear-- Wrong plugs or what?
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There are two "Jon" racers in this conversation, and I'm not sure which of us you're asking. Here's my story:
I had made runs in gas class and chose to switch the bike over to fuel (nitrous) for a run. I fired up the laptop and entered the data for fuel, including the timing and fuel injection changes.
What I did not do is push the "F12" button (or whatever one it was) that sends the new program from the laptop to the bike's ECU. Ergo, I'm moseying down the track, push the button, feel the surge of power, hear the blast of damaged engine, said some choice words under my breath, and that's the end of the story. Joe and Jonathon came over and watched my shattered ego, they helped open up the motor to see that it was terminal damage, and so it went.
The "gas" program is way leaner than the nitrous program -- so while the motor was running okay for a while -- being calibrated right for the gas -- when I hit the button it went very lean very quickly. First went the spark plugs, then the piston. That's the specific playback.
Thanks, Amo brothers and everyone else that helped me that sad day. I sure hope it doesn't happen again.
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Jon W. that was just one catastrophic failure.....there have
been others....yes.....
sometimes the most high profile performance shops dont end
up facilitating the most successful results at Bonn...
flyboy this is where the advice stacks up and starts to take
different twists and turns..........
i have in the past tried to help some with what i like.....folks
will do what they feel is best in the end.........
one thing is for sure.....everyone has the chance to learn something
along the way..........
:)
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Joea--
Got my kit today and went through the manual along with the 14 manual. Can you guys tell me where the best place is to put the floggers on a fuel injection system. Thanks.
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Flyboy,
Can't help you there on placement.. However on Joe's bike, we used the old school Lectrons, with an old school Zx10.. It went 226 one way... 223 average for the two runs... on 998cc. He put the nozzles after the carbs before the head, Some tap the bottom area around on the head on intake port.
What type of system did you get, dry, wet, four nozzle setup or single???
What you need is some of the "Team Amo Anti Galling Compound".... What do you think keeps the bikes together... Thats the secret to nitrous for distance on the salt.... I cant tell you whats in it, but I can sell you a quart of it... IF Jon Wennerberg would have used it....
Jon
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Galling compound? Sounds great. Someday you'll have to tell me the ingredients. But I'll tell you one of my secrets for fast speed. Viagra. Dropped a tablet in my tank and got another 5 mph. Many times I can't rise to the occasion but my bike seems to come through
I got the NOS wet kit 3008 (four cylinder) from Schnitz. It seems pretty straight forward except for the electronics. Now I need to find a 20 gallon storage container. Was told to go to a car nitrous shop. This weekend is the Moto GP only 30 minutes away at Laguna. There must be 20,000 motorcycles on the highway around my house right now and I don't have a bike to ride. Oh well, Bonneville comes first--
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"anti"...galling compound
flyboy, save yourself alot of pain and cash..........
go to your nearest favorite air-products business that
carries gases.........
get a bottle with 20 yr (or whatever) lease.....and get
your nitrous there.......
nitrous is generally around 1/2 the price of what the performance
shops are charging..........
Joe :)
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fly boy
this is where you need to be care full on advise......if you ask an Amo to apply the secrete anti galling compound he's gonna pee on your bike.... thats the true part!
kent
ps
Shawn Gann has one or the fastest nos and fastest all motor busa and he puts his nozzles in the velocity stacks!!! claims it is less sensitive and has never had a nos cough that bends the throttle plates.... but that also reminds me of when Broc Davidson blew his air box up... it pulled the gas tank mounting bolts out of the frame and knocked him off the bike... the nos explosion literally blew him and the tank off the bike....
nos is cool stuff! hey good luck.....
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Kent,
Thanks for the update on the Amos. I had the opportunity to meet them last year on another site. As long as I can learn from them I can put up with their....Bonneville humor?--
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shoot i just read my post and i was being a ahole again...
flyboy
put your nozzles in the head, use braided hose instead of that poly crap, use a funnel style distribution blocks, use a 5lb or larger bottle and plan on using 1 bottle per pass so your pressure will be the same. start collecting bottles and like joe said find a gracious supplier for refills. get a schnitz pro series 2 ignition box and use the nos controller function. set it at 30% start and build to 100% over 4 seconds. pull your ignition timing back 7 degrees over 3 seconds. oh and make sure you tell schnitz you need the expanded chip cuz there stock config box will shut off at something like 20 seconds and you'll need a safe 200 sec.
as for the motor pull the head and install 1mm larger ex valves. ceramic coat your pistons, the combustion chamber and the complete ex port( it will make removing melted piston material easier) degree your cams and open the lobe center up a little (not familiar with zx12 but 104-108 might be a good starting point) oh what else.... oh toss and dont even think of running the stock spark plugs... use the stock heat range maybe 1 colder but you cant run a projected tip plug... you gotta find a surface gap plug OR YOU WILL MELT DOWN..... have a good arming switch and use the horn button but also use a wot throttle switch so you can peddle it.... then get a graduated beaker and start flowing your system.. get really really familiar with your jets.. your jets are your freinds.. your jets will save your motors life... get very very familiar with them and save them the rest of your life. flow your syslem for a full 100 seconds and it will be good.... oh when you build a flow system put a sensitive pressure gage on the fuel side and watch it very close about 40 seconds in.. if the pressure starts climbing your nozzles are starting to freeze up thats why i recomend putting your nozzles in your head. well thats about it for now... do these things and you'll have a good hun shot for a full 3 miles... if it doesnt work.. try the Amo anti galling compound.
alright my good deed is done for the week
kent
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Flyboy,
He put the nozzles after the carbs before the head
Jon
Nice looking manifolds on Joes bike, does he want to sell them :roll:
John
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Wow, you could have skipped the first 3 pages and read the compilation of suggestions in Kent's post. The only change is 10lb bottle will be required. A 5 will run out before you get to the end. If you come by to chat on the salt I'll make 1 more suggestion to help keep your pressure in the area you know it is in. Don't know what solenoids came with you kit, but for big, long shots, you need the largest ones you can find. Little ones will freeze up and the gas one needs to be flowed to ensure you can give it enough fuel.
OK, when the little one freezes open, after you release the button, the gas stops but the N20 keeps going, wanna know what happens a half a second later? :x
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OK, when the little one freezes open, after you release the button, the gas stops but the N20 keeps going, wanna know what happens a half a second later? :x
Something like this??? That wasn't from Nozzle freezing up,,, however could end up same result.
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hey ive seen that before...
kr
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I thought for a second that that was one of ours, but the holes were much bigger in ours. Where is the piston? It should be equally as nice. Ain't N20 fun... Just bolt it on and get cheap HP :wink:
The HP is cheap, the repairs are the expensive part... :x
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flyboy
ya commin to speed week of are ya just doin the Bub thing
kent
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Kent,
I will only going to BUB this year. Would love to come to Speedweek but won't be ready in time. I missed out on a second FIM record last year because of Charlie (story will soon follow) so I'm going back to get it. I will be coming down to SD the weekend of July 27-28 to see my Dad. Maybe we can get together Sat night so I can buy you a couple drinks? Bill
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i will be at the shop all day and probably night sat the 28th working on the liner stop on by
kent
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stainless......so your sayin ...yours is bigger than mine...?
in this case........yes.......your hole is likely bigger than mine........
look familiar....?...(see attached pic).....
look at mine closer (jons post end of 3rd page)...where the counter balancer is hangin out...the rod blew the hole front 1/3 out of the bottom of the motor, cases shatter...pan etc.........
I would say mine is more impressive than yours, but your hole is bigger...
flyboy be careful who ya listen to....we can help you do what we have done...
as far as pistons with large portions missing......there a dime a dozen..(or is that a diamond a dozen..?)...
I have so many I could have a large party of my closest friends and family and use them for balloon hold down devices....
Joe
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Yes, that one is mine, the case is cut all the way around, the head bolts were holding the end of the case in place. N20 at its finest. :roll:
Mine would never knock out the balance shaft, I take 'em out.
flyboy be careful who ya listen to....we can help you do what we have done...
as far as pistons with large portions missing......there a dime a dozen..(or is that a diamond a dozen..?)...
I have so many I could have a large party of my closest friends and family and use them for balloon hold down devices....
Joe
Joe, it's just a guess, but I'll bet FB does not want us to help him do what we showed we could do in the pictures. :-o I think I remember that birthday party... a balloon and piston for every year of age wasn't it?
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Fly Boy,
My only experience is in the 1 mile. Listen to nothing I say or said, it means nothing to you for the salt.
I run a 5lb bottle just to give me proper pressure for 5,280 feet and I think JoeA used a 10lb bottle when he broke his nitrous records on the 1000. 2- 2# bottles will be pushing it in my humble opinion.
I know nothing about the salt or it's requirements, but I will tell you that I'm getting better at what I do in the 1 mile.
Guy
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Guy- where do you run at 5,280? Denver?
Stainless, joe- Those pictures are very encouraging. As a pilot I'm always studying airplane crashes to see what the person did wrong so I can hope never to repeat their actions. (99.9% of the time it's the pilots fault)
On the other hand, professional golfers on the tour are taught by their "head doctors" that whenever something goes wrong in a tournament they should always blame it on an outside factor, so the player won't lose his self-confidence. By examining your sets of pictures I can safely deduct one of the following-
1) The nitrous bottle was defective,
2) A strong crosswind blew too much nitrous into the downwind cylinder,
3) The nitrous button was from China and got stuck,
4) I was going so fast and knew I had another record but my buddy holds that record and I didn't want to hurt his feelings so I just kept my finger on the button till it blew,
5) My wife is getting the bike when the divorce is final and I was trying for 300 mph,
and last but not least-
5) Noonan sold me some defective pistons.
Kent, in what part of town do you live?
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the shop is in Vista on your way to sd
map quest
2530 fortune way
vista ca 92081
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Hey Flyboy, Watch out you might be put to work, he's a man on a mission :wink:
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Guy- where do you run at 5,280? Denver?
Maxton, 5,280' = 1 mile
sorry for the confusion.
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I'd be interested in seeing Kent's project if I can make it.
Next question, and I thank you gentleman.
Gearing-- We are all familiar with the gearing formulas that exist on at least two sites I know. If one uses, as an example, an additional 50 hp on his already 190 hp bike what would the increase in RPMs be? Example. I was seeing about 10,200 rpm (at Bonneville) in my MPS setup with about 185 hp (sea level). So with a 27% increase in hp should I be seeing about a 1,500 (13%) increase in RPM? I'm trying to figure out what rear sprockets to bring.
Second question- Engine Manufactures always put in a fudge factor when setting red lines on tachs so the engine won't blow up. How far have you gone over red line in a stock configuration or otherwise with not having damaged your engine? Is there a rule of thumb?
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With more power we ran 1000 RPM lower than on gas :-D
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[quote author=Flyboy link=topic=2685.msg32579#msg32579 date=118523970
As a pilot I'm always studying airplane crashes to see what the person did wrong so I can hope never to repeat their actions. (99.9% of the time it's the pilots fault)
where did you come up w/ this one??? my best stock car driver made his first pass w/ spray plane-on a standing corn field that was to muddy for ground hyboys-{fully loaded} engine sputtered- he put it down real nice- never even tipped it over- but the sudden stop crushed him with his belts- how was that pilot error????--couple of summers ago a p-51 was circling for landing @ Red Wing MN and camshaft broke-he is also dead- don't think that was pilot error either..
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Rule 1 for flying, stay in the middle of the air, the edges are dangerous... :roll:
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Rule 1 for flying, stay in the middle of the air, the edges are dangerous... :roll:
so true- but when the motor quits you can't just turn out and fix it-like Jack says-flying is the easy part:its the landing that's hard- -reminded me of big jet liner that had an eng blow & fell off plane & made a spectacular crash landing @ Sioux City- eng was found in corn field that fall-if it fell on somebody it would leave a mark!
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Geez, doncha know that if anything falls in Iowa, you will find it in a corn field. :roll:
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[quote author=Flyboy link=topic=2685.msg32579#msg32579 date=118523970
As a pilot I'm always studying airplane crashes to see what the person did wrong so I can hope never to repeat their actions. (99.9% of the time it's the pilots fault)
where did you come up w/ this one??? my best stock car driver made his first pass w/ spray plane-on a standing corn field that was to muddy for ground hyboys-{fully loaded} engine sputtered- he put it down real nice- never even tipped it over- but the sudden stop crushed him with his belts- how was that pilot error????--couple of summers ago a p-51 was circling for landing @ Red Wing MN and camshaft broke-he is also dead- don't think that was pilot error either..
Russ- I was trying to make a point. In reality airplane crashes are about 90% pilot errror or higher. Your friend's airplane sputtered? There's a good chance he was out of gas.... or had water in the tanks. Both pilot error.
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Russ- I was trying to make a point. In reality airplane crashes are about 90% pilot errror or higher. Your friend's airplane sputtered? There's a good chance he was out of gas.... or had water in the tanks. Both pilot error.
[/quote]your dreaming-he was flying the plane steady for several days from sunup to dark- no water in gas here- plane was leaking gas all over the place from ruptured tank- lucky no fire though it didn't make any dif to him= he was an excellent pilot with #1 in class @ Rucker-was rather tough also as survived a 7 times end over end @ end of straight on 1/2 mile in sprint when axle snapped going into turn. that time he was a hurting unit for a while ..was watching a pair of spray planes @ local port last week- one had turbine-he got off 3/4 runway while radial one{looked bigger than 450 pratt} was only about 50 foot off ground crossing the 1 mile road @ end of port- they are loaded so heavy about one hickup from eng and your done..
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Geez, doncha know that if anything falls in Iowa, you will find it in a corn field. :roll:
not true Jack :it could have landed in a bean field..
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Russ,
I live about 3 miles from the end of the Santa Rosa airport main runway. The CDF (California Dept of Forestry) flies their fire bombers out of Santa Rosa so in the summer I see them alot. Up until a couple of years ago the had big twin engine recips and they would go over my house, pretty low and really laboring now they have what looks to be the same plane but with gas turbines , no problem for them they are at least 250 higher than the old planes but you know what! Nothing sounds as good as a big recip!!!
Rex
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Nothing sounds as good as a big recip!!!
Rex
Unless it's a big Radial... :wink:
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Nothing sounds as good as a big recip!!!
Rex
Unless it's a big Radial... :wink:
got one of them in my tank-don't like sound when it reminds me of fuel going through it to make the racket..the whole rig is for sale if you be interested..it's gal/mile-not the other way around...
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Stainless,
I include both inlines and radials in my "recip" catagory. There is a P51 that flies out of Santa Rosa and I will ALWAYS put down my tools to go outside the shop to watch it fly over!!
PS the CDF planes were radials.
Rex
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Rex, will you be at speedweek this year. If so hope to see you there.
Glen
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I also live just a few miles from a fire service slurry location -- Jeffco Airport (they just renamed it but I don't remember what the new name is.)
http://airportjournals.com/display.cfm/Centennial/0206050
They stage the fire service slurry bombers out of there in the summer time for the wild fire season. At my old house I lived right next to a handy land mark the pilots would use, they would take off fly south to the mountain behind my house and then vector from there to the fire scene. I work nights so sleep days and many a summer afternoon I woke up to the music of a fully loaded PB4Y scratching for altitude as he came over the house, then 20 - 40 minutes later I would hear him running hard with no load on a fast direct approach, going back to reload. I could guess where the fire was by the cycle time it took him to make his return run.
That PB4Y (B-24) that went down here in Colorado just a few years ago while fighting the Big Elk Meadow fire, was the one that usually rattled my dishes as he roared over with a load of slurry. The P-3 Orion air tankers did not have quite the same sound but I would hear them flying in rotation with the old war bird.
http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/co_jul19.html
I miss that old bird (#123) it was really sad when Rick Schwartz, and Milt Stollak went down, especially since it came just weeks after the C-130A crash in California due to a similar structural failure.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/air5/pb4y1.jpg
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/air5/pb4y2.jpg
Larry
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Glen,
Barring a giant rain out my youngest son and I are planning to be there on Friday and stay until Tues or Wed. I am planning to help Steve Nelson with his new lakester but will be sure to look you up. Regretfully I will not be driving my lakes roadster as I have just ran out of money. Down to the last two big things I need, wheels and tires and the ECU for the injection and the ones that I am planning on using pretty much kill a $6000 bill so I am waiting a while.
Rex
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Nitrous update--
If anyone ever comes on this board and tells you they want to put nitrous on their bike....
hit them on the side of the head with a 2 by 4 and tell 'em it's for their own good!
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flyboy.....come on.....ya gotta share more than that....
Joe
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Joe, so far I've learned-
1) Nitrous kits are built for drag racers and not Land Speed Racers,
2) Opinions on the use of nitrous are just like assholes... everyone has one.
3) I should expect to blow 6 engines before I learn the proper use of nitrous.
4) It's a very expensive option for my bike.
5) Everyone lists you as the top nitrous man.
The good news?
Not quite sure... I'm hitting more golf balls at the range to take out my frustrations and my swing is improving?
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6 motors may be a low estimate, but it appears you listen... so you may get under that wire. Offer is still open to chat. If you bring beer, you may get Joe and I together to talk. :wink:
See ya on the salt 8-)
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flyboy.......the flip side.......your amazing zx14 will
REALLY come alive with a "little" nitrous......and can be
the easiest way to higher speeds.....we were using pretty
ineffecient motors and had to stuff a relatively large load
of nitrous in the thing.....thats where the issues really start
to pile up........
i think its like your young teenager who comes to you and says
that they would like to drink alcohol at those special social events
to be more social and have more fun..........it can be done.....but we
all know the lives that "can" be lost or ruined by its consumption...
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Thanks Scott- I now see a light at the end of the tunnel. Hari-Kari may not be necessary.
Exhaust question-
Last year I noted many vet bikers did not use an exhaust (muffler). After talking to one of the engineers that works at BUB he mentioned that no exhaust was good for top end but not good for drag racing. On the other hand some people say that a little back pressure is good for the motor when doing LSR. What do you guys think is best for top performance during LSR? One comment- No one in my area will dyno my engine with no muffler...
Refill Question- Are there vendors at Speedweek or BUB that sell nitrous fillups?
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Thanks Scott- I now see a light at the end of the tunnel. Hari-Kari may not be necessary.
Exhaust question-
................... On the other hand some people say that a little back pressure is good for the motor when doing LSR. What do you guys think is best for top performance during LSR? .........................
As far as I'm concerned the only back pressure one would ever want would be a tuned wave going back up your exhaust at the correct time for the rpm where you need it.
Back pressure by itself is just going to slow down the movement of air through the head, cylinder, exhaust and is just the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.
c ya,
Sum
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Flyboy,
Mr. Guthrie speaks with authority when it comes to nitrous on a stock motor (no rods) in 1 mile.
JoeA can tell you what the salt likes and doesn't like. A ZX14 with a small amount of juice on the rich side can make you go a lot faster, but the tragedies of nitrous are still there.
Wayne Pollack told me once, the secret to going fast on a long distance, is to go fast fat and lethargic. I have built my speeds up using that same advice. This year I plan to use even more nitrous, but in 2 stages and yes, I also expect to see my motor in a basket after the next meet. But I will return and I will go faster than the time before. I keep learning what not to do, sooner or later I should run out of things not to do. Then and only then will I hit my goal.
Guy
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"HP is like money, you can spend all you have when you get it, or you can invest it." (us) :wink:
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Dragging this one back up so Oz can read it if he has not
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Yup I have now