Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: 2fast4u2c on May 19, 2007, 09:16:26 PM
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Debbie Dross aboard the Scott Guthrie Turbo went thru the traps at 212mph where she encountered a sudden meeting with a cone in our blind down hill right hander. She held on pretty good but went down at lower speeds causing a broken collar bone, some bruising and abrasions. She was sent to the Laurinburg Hospital where she was pronounced in good health and she is ready for more when she heals. She did a great job and we are all very happy she survived her racing ordeal.
The Scott Guthrie Turbo however may be terminal. we are still waiting for the final inspection and determination by Mr. Guthrie after it arrives to the Guthrie Racing Laboratories.
Guy
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What a bummer ,Deb get well soon ,212 wow shame about the finish ,
Gary
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Hope Deb is ok. I see it was a Scott Guthrie Busa she was riding. I hope to hear her side of the story on what happened.
She is a trooper, she will prevail this is give it a go again in future.
Get well Deb, who all love ya...
And on a side note, congrats to Trillium for now the fastest women on two wheels at 218 mph on a turbo busa. Hope she can make it to Bonneville and do it again.
Jon
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Be careful how you say that.
Marcia is old enoughto be their mother. :wink:
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Sorry to hear that Deb got off at speed. She's tough and will be back. We are thinking of her and wish her a speedy recovery.
Glen
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damn... those maxton girls are tough.... 212 and 218..!!. I'd like to see one of em show up at b'ville and go faster than noonan... I'd never let him live it down if he got beat by a girl :-D... "EVER" :-D
Kent
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Hey everyone! I'm here, I'm ok!
First off let me start by saying thank you to Scott & Ellen Guthrie for allowing me the honor of riding their bike. It tears me up that I was on their bike when I went down. What an awesome run. Everything came together and was rock solid. The bike was unbelievable! It was so smooth that I honestly didn’t realize how fast I was going! I had intended to try to run through at about 200. Turns out I ran through at 212!!!! What a ride! If I never have the opportunity to throw a leg over another turbo bike again I will always treasure this most awesome opportunity they have given me! I hope we can work together to get that bike back to what it was before I made that last pass!
Let me apologize now to everyone that was there for the scare! As soon as I stopped sliding I thought about standing up to let everyone know I was ok but knew better then to do it, so I just sat there with two thumbs up in hopes that everyone wouldn't panic! I knew my shoulder hurt but everything else felt & was moving as it should be. I had no clue where the bike ended up. All I knew was I just went down and I did it on someone else’s bike. What a sick feeling. I knew for the most part I was ok so it was easy for me to remain calm and in good spirits.
Everyone that came to my aid was top notch. The rescue squad was patient & understanding, the officials and volunteers and close friends were just great. Everyone was so concerned and understanding that it was just awesome.
So, what happened? Simply put, I hit a cone in shut down. In my opinion there were a few contributing factors, or more like mistakes on my part. The biggest one being going too fast too soon. I had intended to run around a 200 and feel out the shut down and generally progress a little at a time with the speed. I guess I just got a little caught up in things. We spent a lot of time going over how to execute the run and not so much on the shut down. My shut downs had been going well all day so there was no expectation that it would be problematic. (Possibly mistake number 1). Well, as it turns out I executed a very good run. Shifting was dead on, my tuck was great, wide-open throttle through 5th & 6th. Exactly as we had planned as the ultimate goal. What I failed to do in the heat of the run was come to the realization that the bike was geared for close to 220 (?) and that a successful full throttle run would net me well above 200. The run felt great! Rock solid no issues with the speed, no fear, no reason to back down. I hit shut down and executed it as I had all day. The problem being I was going faster then I had gone all day. I scrubbed off a lot of speed and as I was able to make my focus and orientation on the track to make the slight right turn all that came into focus was the cone in front of me. All I had to do was look to the right for the "hole" and all would have been well. Instead I fixed on the cone (target fixation). I thought, oh no, there's a cone, oh no, I'm going to hit the cone, I wanted to go right to avoid the cone but the last thing I thought was I'm going to hit the cone. It didn’t occur to me that hitting the cone would put me down to the ground. I guess in that fleeting moment I had hoped it would just bounce off & get my front end a little shaky. I grabbed as much brake as I could. It seems the cone got under the bike, flipped up and we low sided. I hit the cone with the left side of the tire. We went another 60’ or so and the tires went out to the left. The bike and I went down on the right. My right shoulder hit first. From there I essentially barrel rolled twice & slid to a stop at the edge of the grass. At the time I had no knowledge of the whereabouts of the bike. It ended up off course in the bushes beyond where I stopped. After we went back and checked the scrape marks we realized that the bike and I skidded parallel and only about 4 feet apart. I am quite lucky we didn’t get tangled up.
The end result to me is that I broke my right collarbone in two places. I have a bruised lung (because of that they kept me overnight at the hospital for observation) I have an “Indian burn” type rash on my left forearm about 3 inches long where the leathers twisted on my arm. My left hand is swollen & bruised. My gear is shot but 100% did the job of protecting me. None of it wore completely through. I may be able to use my boots again and can definitely use my internal back protector. Everything else is road rashed but saved my hide! The bike as you would expect suffered fairing damage. It was able to be rolled back into the truck so that is encouraging. We won’t know the extent of the mechanical damage until it is back home & torn down.
I’m out of the riders seat for somewhere around 3-6 weeks. I’ll have to see an orthopedic when I get home for the final prognosis. Had I not broken my clavicle I most definitely would have been back on a bike today. The speed didn’t scare me, the crash didn’t scare me. I won’t let that dang right bend get the better of me. I’ll be back out and work my way through a safe, controlled & consistent shut down while more slowly increasing my trap speed.
Thanks for all of the well wishes, thoughts and prayers. It’s back to pit tootsie for me for a few weeks but I plan to be back in the saddle in September!
Debbie Dross #1302
Twin Jugs Racing
Proud to be sponsored a ride by Scott Guthrie Racing
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Hey it is great to know you are well enough to write such an exciting report 8-).
I tried to e-mail you today only to find out you guys weren't taking e-mails off your site anymore :cry:, so I'm glad I got to do it here :-D.
You are a brave gal and I look forward to meeting you and Todd one of these days. Get well quick. I broke my collarbone once, but it wasn't near as exciting as your experience. You are going to be sore for a while, but I'm sure Todd loves taking care of you :-o.
c ya,
Sum
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Well done.
Get well.
Well said.
Get back. 8-)
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Deb you are my hero. First let me apologize for the wise cracks and stupid jokes I was making while we were waiting those few seconds for the crash crew to arrive. It is something I do when helping folks in scary situations. It helps to break the tension although I must admit you were pretty calm and cool to begin with.
Since I was one of the two shutdown workers I was an eye witness. Your description of the crash is just as I saw it. I think I got to you in about 10 seconds. (NOTE to course workers - park your vehicle facing the track and have the key in the ignition. I did . . . and it saved several precious seconds). As you were going down my partner was on the radio "RIDER DOWN, RIDER DOWN!". The tower was sounding the crash horn and the emergency crew was rolling. Everything happened exactly as it should have happened and it was executed flawlessly.
All that and . . . 212mph!! Wow!!
Mend well, . . . Best Regards, Art
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It sounds like you were in good hands right away.
Talking straight up to an accident victim is very important to keep them focused and reduce the tendency to go into shock regardless of the nature or extent of the injuries.
A panicked voice around an injured party is just about the worse.
So does this make Deb the fastest women biker , without her bike ? :wink:
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Let me blob my responses into one post.
First thanks for the well wishes, they are much appreciated.
Jon, lets give Marcia her due respect, Trillium is the fastest woman on an open wheel motorcycle. Marcia is still the fastest woman on a motorcycle (streamliner). I had that wonderful distinction for a whole 2 1/2 hours on Saturday. I'm told the party was a good one, too bad I missed it! :D I'll be sure to make the next one! ;)
Art,
Thanks a bunch! It was great having you there. The sense of humor was awesome and right up my alley! Everyone there was just so great! Thanks for you input on my get off. It's good to know my perspective wasn't skewed. Oh wait, one critique Art, it's imparitive that the shut down workers know the speed of the last run. I mean really, having to wait an entire minute to know I went 212, that's just inexcusable! (lmao - just kidding)
Jack,
You are so right! Everyone was so calm and low key it was very soothing! I knew they were all tense inside and that I scared the heck out of them but they put on the game face and kept it light for me! That was so wonderful. Having people panicked around me would have made it tense. I was really ok and they helped keep it that way. I'm really not a fan of wrecking but if you have to do it, I couldn't have asked for a better scenario, response team and outcome.
Much love to all!
Debbie (Maxton's Fastest Motorcycle-less Woman LMAO)
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I see a suitable embroidered patch and sticker in your future to reflect your status as the " World's Fastest Motorcycle-less Woman".
The race for "Fastest Woman Open Biker" is in good hands also , but is very much still in contention.
"Watch out fat boys" (from an unnamed Pro Stock bike rider) :wink:
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Talk about baptism under fire! Glad you are all right Deb. I admire your honest opinion of why you became Conan the Maxtonian. In all seriousness a bike can always be repaired by bolting on new parts. The human body, not so easy. Speaking of parts, I have everything needed to repair the bike chassis including a frame. Scott, when you read this let me know if the engine survived and we can get Deb back racing this fall. Gotta give the "Maple Leaf Mob" some competition. (Hell of a run Trillium under not ideal conditions.) Check out the Moto GP report from yesterday Deb and you can compare your bounce/slide technique to Randy DePuniet. I see the entry now. Dross,Guthrie, Forstall & Associates. Sounds like a Philly law firm. :-D
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Deb, Glad to hear it was not any more serious than a collar bone that will heal.
Is this kind of like the old flat track saying " You don't know how fast you can go till you fall off"? Your a racer and I know you will be back as soon as you can.
Doug Odom in big ditch
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Deb Cyndia and I were scared to death until we got the news you were(ok).
hope to see you soon.
terry
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Deb, let me add my "get well" and let you know you now have a great racing story to tell, and believe me, you will over and over. I hope to hear it at the Salt Talks, are you and Todd coming out? Glad to hear you were not hurt too seriously, you fared well for a crash at any speed. Also glad to see you are ready to get back on the horse that threw you. Your analysis of the problem sounded spot on, "focus on where you want to go, not where you don't" :wink: I'll bet you will have that burned in your brain the next time you race. Again get well, looking forward to meeting y'all.
Stainless
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Scott -
Thanks for your wonderful letter. Not one word about the bike, and no pissin' and moanin' about your loss. While your accomplishments on the track are legendary (I have to confess that when I first came to the track, I didn't know WHO you were), now I know why you're a champion. You are a gracious gentleman - I'm afraid a dying breed. And, like Keith and I, you married up - Ellen's a keeper.
I'm sure you have resources far beyond my humble abilities, but if I can help put it back together, by all means please call. The best I could probably offer is to paint it for you. I've been a backyard painter for over 40 years, so I do have some skills in that department. I'll just take a day to drive down to see my Mom and pick it up on the way there or back. I'm serious.
See you next meet
Dan
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Scott, I am so overwhelmed with your chivalry. You allow me the honor of riding your bike with free reign to give it everything it has. I do that, goober up the shut down, take the bike down and out. Then you publicly state not only will the bike be rebuilt but not to your standards but to a higher standard you feel I seemingly deserve.
I just don't know what to say. I am so overwhelmed and honored by the faith that you and others instill in me.
I never ever wanted to wreck a bike, let alone someone else's bike, let alone the legendary Scott Guthrie's bike but in all honesty, I never could have understood or felt the magnitude or comradery, sense of family and overall love of fellow man and racer that this collective group has shown me. The number of people I know and don't know that have offered anything and everything they have to help both myself and the bike back on the mend is truely unbelievable.
Getting a record, getting in the two club, being the fastest whatever at any given point in time yeah that's something, but looking deep in the eyes of my fellow racers, the volunteers that run the track, the man that owns the bike you just wrecked while sitting on the ground where you just landed and having each and every one of them say that was a hell of a run, you scared the crap out of us, we're proud of you, don't ever do that again without a shred of anger and nothing but love and gratefulness in their eyes and hearts, that's just truly priceless!
If I never ride again this is a moment in time that will live on inside of me forever!
But don't get any funny ideas, I WILL ride again! ;)
Deb
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After a few of these posts, I really don't know what to say or can't seem to muster the words to do so.:cry:
Instead, I'll leave my thoughts of the entire situation in one of the pictures I took, you can hear my words... by reading their faces.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/LSR/ECTA/100_2005e.jpg)
I wish every land speed racer could feel what Debbie feels right now... simply phenomenal,
Todd
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Don't forget, you also earned your A Lic. on that Pass Deb... how cool is that?
LOL Hey ya gotta look at the little stuff too... there's a ton of folks in the pits that would love to have that lic.
K
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Keith's right on with that one. I'll likely NEVER have an "A" license.
Later
Dan
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Hell Ill never see one
terry
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Terry, I'll bet if you stand at the bar at the 2 club meeting everyone that you buy a drink for will likely show you theirs if you ask... :roll:
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Terry, I'll bet if you stand at the bar at the 2 club meeting everyone that you buy a drink for will likely show you theirs if you ask... :roll:
And you would be first in line :lol:
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Only if I can trip Johnboy during the rush... :wink:
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actually I was wrong about the lic. Unfortunately the rule says that you have to complete the run... bummer...
Hmmm See even I have to read the rules now and again...
Sorry if I got your hopes up Deb... my mistake... teach me to shoot off my mouth...
Keith
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First woman officially over 210 MPH on a Street Bike, we thought…….
No, the first woman over 210 was Trillium. 210.13mph
MM
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actually I was wrong about the lic. Unfortunately the rule says that you have to complete the run... bummer...
Hmmm See even I have to read the rules now and again...
Sorry if I got your hopes up Deb... my mistake... teach me to shoot off my mouth...
Keith
deb
Kieth, if Deb received a time slip, she completed the run :-) the incident was after the completed run in the shutdown area. Deb should have earned her A :x
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Some people involved(more like involving themselves) interpret the rules the way they see best to make themselves feel better Stainless. No sweat... as Deb said "I'm doing this for me and there are only 4 people involved that I'm concerned about their direct position on this."
I feel there is no one that's been under 210mph on a motorcycle at Maxton(myself included in that description) that can judge her(you don't let a $50,000 a year guy tell you why you aren't making a million dollars). All the "FAST" people I talked with so far fully understand the scope of the situation and have shared their experiences with me. Remedy discussions are in process(Debbie takes FULL responsibility, but room for other improvements are plentiful imo).
Thank you for your support Bob, you bring up an excellent point in regards to reading the written rule(but it appears that is sometimes only relevant to certain teams, individuals and circumstances).
Debbie had a very successful 212+mph pass at less then 3mph short of the fastest speed that motorcycle has ever obtained with(one of) the best rider(s) anywhere in the world on it... there's no piece of paper that could make that accomplishment any better or worse.
Life on our end is good... recovery is eminent... safety practices are being enhanced... and speed increases will not be deterred.
Thanks for all the support both publicly and privately,
Todd
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last meet.. next meet.. whats the difference? it sound like she'll race again and it sounds live she'll have a bike so to me it sounds like she'll get that lic.!
kent
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actually I was wrong about the lic. Unfortunately the rule says that you have to complete the run... bummer...
Hmmm See even I have to read the rules now and again...
Sorry if I got your hopes up Deb... my mistake... teach me to shoot off my mouth...
Keith
Thats BS..... Give her the A lic. She deserves it, a completed run is running from the start to the end of the measured point... That is a completed run... Don't ever remember reading that vehicle has to come to a complete stop for it to be completed. Even more so for the ECTA since you can ride your race vehicle to and from an attempt.
SO KEITH, you are telling me that a completed run is when a vehicle starts at the start line, goes thru the timing traps, THEN has to drive it back to the impound area or pits (without stopping, Because ECTA allows this) ONLY Then when they stop the vehicle, it is a completed run.
Jon
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last meet.. next meet.. whats the difference? it sound like she'll race again and it sounds live she'll have a bike so to me it sounds like she'll get that lic.!
kent
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/narider/Misc/thumb.gif)She's got it by the rulebook... the rest is just paper.
REF: ECTA 2007 RULE BOOK, OPERATING PROCEDURES, Section I, Article I-14 DRIVERS LICENSING, Page 10
Anyone that has gotten an A license at ECTA by "NOT going OVER 200mph", got their license illegally. It was not valid until they reached 200.000mph(and by the way, from a B license anyone is legal to run up to 249mph right off the bat to obtain an A license).... "PER THE WRITTEN WORD".
*NOTE: Running much over 200 at all is not recommended by ECTA of course for good reason and we agree with this, but this conversation is about LEGALITIES appearantly and what the rule book "SAYS".
Shut down or returning to impound is not part of a "satisfactorily completed" run at ECTA as proven by the points that have been distributed to those not completing shutdown or returning to impound in the past... this has gone on for many years and for past points championship winners as well.
It is not "written in the book" that someone has to make it out of shutdown, so it can't be an actual rule right? Precedent has been set on this by a recently over ruled protest - as stated by ECTA and the protested team... "It doesn't say it in the book!".
One would think the rules "should" all be read, used and interpreted the same way for each entrant.
ECTA will be receiving the A license Debbie was issued at the track back in the mail(she got it from her purse and layed it on my desk this morning when she read this, luckily.... "to her" it's no big deal and she would rather not receive it if there is any controversy whatsoever over it).
As Kent said... another day.
It's just racing man,
Todd
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The Race Director can overrule any rule, as he/she see's fit. In this case, which is a special case, I say give it to her. You can argue many points here.... She didnt loose control, she hit a darn cone, which caused the accident. Can further argue that cone was on the race surface, so it was in HER way. Didn't hear about the cone being in the grass.
Jon
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The Race Director can overrule any rule, as he/she see's fit. In this case, which is a special case, I say give it to her. You can argue many points here.... She didnt loose control, she hit a darn cone, which caused the accident. Can further argue that cone was on the race surface, so it was in HER way. Didn't hear about the cone being in the grass.
Jon
Glad your OK,and it all worked out :-o! These Women Racer's are taking over Motorcycle racing everywhere :|..............
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Well, I would say that:
A) She went 212+ mph through the lights
B) She had the bike slowed down under 100 mph by 2nd shutdown.
C) She clipped a cone...which has been done before, even by a well-known record holder. (maybe the cones need to be relocated a bit?)
D) The bike made it back to impound (on a Van), I'm sure that if this had been a known issue, the ambulance could have swung her by as well.
E) What if someone pops their motor on the shutdown road, and it has to be towed back...does that mean their run didn't count?
F) Not that it is exactly the same thing...but what happens when a dragster blows apart after the finish line....does that mean the other guy wins by default?
Is there a precedent on this? What has happened in the past under these circumstances? What does it say in the rulebook?
I respect the decision of the powers that be. I just can't quite reconcile how this run is being nullified.
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Give it to her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............what would SCTA/BNI
do?????????????????????? Do remember<NOOOOO>
riding or driving race vehicles back to the pit/starting line.....Insurance you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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CONFUSION ?
Do not confuse recorded speed or club points with the orientation that is the objective of the licencing program.
That includes a demonstration of all the aspects of a run from end to end.
Be satisfied the rider understands the problem and is going to learn a lesson that most will never experience.
Treat the rider as a rider and not a novelty.
With the next step allowing a speed up to 250mph, I expect to see a better, faster result on the next attempt.
With regard to riding a race vehicle back , instead of empty theories, you are invited to call Bob Leggieo from MIS or any SCTA officer and hear of their requirements and reasons for the rule.
Only then can you speak with any kind of knowledge if you will. :roll:
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CONFUSION ?
Do not confuse recorded speed or club points with the orientation that is the objective of the licencing program.
That includes a demonstration of all the aspects of a run from end to end.
Be satisfied the rider understands the problem and is going to learn a lesson that most will never experience.
Treat the rider as a rider and not a novelty.
With the next step allowing a speed up to 150mph, i expect to see a better, faster result on the next attempt.
With regard to riding a race vehicle back , instead of empty theories, you are invited to call Bob Leggieo from MIS or any SCTA officer and hear of their requirements and reasons for the rule.
Only then can you speak with any kind of knowledge if you will. :roll:
Thanks for your post. But what is the rule? I haven't been able to find it in the ECTA rulebook...can you elaborate on the ECTA rules?
I am a newbie. But I haven't been able to find the rules of which you speak, in the ECTA rulebook.
Thanks.
Shane
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I believe the rule was reviewed by KT and paraphrased if not quoted here earlier.
Follow the thread from the start and it will be in a logical sequence. :wink:
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I believe the rule was reviewed by KT and paraphrased if not quoted here earlier.
Follow the thread from the start and it will be in a logical sequence. :wink:
Well, I trust KT to make the right decision. I am new to all of this, and still learning the ropes...
I would still like to see just 200 mph one day! LOL
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Jack, thank you for your view, and well stated enough to disappoint me that I didn't have to use my cryptic code deciphering ring. My only point was that all rules should be treated the same and as they are all there for a reason(and even though the more important ones are more safety oriented.. the reason is not always as it appears of why a rule exists or how it is administered). Either take them by their written word or take them by the reason they were written(certainly not very hard to figure out on the average article). Why state something that's now followed, and then require something that's not stated?
Licensing parameters at SCTA seem to be no less strict then the ECTA(more so on the contrary), yet the ECTA appears to have more reason(quicker thought and ability needed) to require handling capability testing for anyone allowed to power that vehicle for the weekend(that would be anyone or everyone).
3 things that I agree with an/or think should be taken into consideration are...
#1:
"Slow Speed" maneuvering should be required more then anything imo, as we allow full use of all race vehicles and anyone that wants to drive one in and around the pits, shutdown, registration and staging. Not to mention that we have NOWHERE that either restricts race vehicles from being under their own power in a given area, or that restrict others from being an a given area that race vehicles are allowed.
As far as I know... I 'm the only one that has ever required any entrants to show slow speed manueverability on thier open wheeled motorcycle.
#3:
"At Speed" licensing could be monitored by(I know, more volunteers) mid track(at the turnouts) spotters(and the tower as usual). It's odd that those that are most concerned with the track seem to get concerned with the area of acceleration(1/8th to 1 mile mark) when ALL incidents have been from the traps down and the close calls have been in launching from the start line). I think the "At Speed" testing would prove to be thee least of our issues(as everyone that does this will agree that twisting the wick is the easy part of the run). Where this part really matters and is hard to test for is a clutch lockup(it's happened plenty), a blown motor(it happens too often), a deer(it happened), a bird(it happened x3), a rabbit(it happened), or a mis(or badly)placed cone(it's happened x2 minimum), a chain wrap, a bolt form a sprocket, etc, etc- this is the stuff that will test someones actions/reactions.
#2:
"Shutdown" ability might show anything from speeds at a couple points in shutdown, body positioning as the vehicle slows, track position at different points and where the head is looking the entire time(just a few of the things WE will be concentrating on at this point). This is surely the most detrimental and problem prone area of the run. The only thing that makes this just slightly less important imo then #1 is that a mistake here most likely takes only you out, where as a Slow Speed(#1) scenario above shows probability of involving spectators, crew members, children, etc(reruns of Death Race 2000 are visualized here).
There have been 5 bikes down that I'm aware: 3 of them doing less then 10mph coming out of shutdown onto the return road(2 short, 1 long), 1 coming into/thru/and out of the traps at 165+/-mph, and 1(the latest) in shutdown doing between 55 and 80mph.
Yet we're discussing whether to give someone a piece of paper to show they ran what they already know they ran????:roll: How about we see who has a VALID license(like the book says), or even the ability to obtain a license, or the ability to even slowly move and park a vehicle(since that has to be done to even get into and out of the pits and onto the track). There was a truck at this meet that smacked another truck hard enough in staging to slam his tailgate shut from the fully down position(scared the shit out of me and I was glad I wasn't standing at that tailgate). Licensing? Making one single pass in a 10mph window does not show shit imo(and that's all the current realworld requirement is).
If you would be kind enough to guide me towards Bob Leggieo's phone number, I would like to call and gain as much of his knowledge as I like gaining yours.
Thank you Jack, your words are taken very seriously and appreciated,
Todd
Shane,
Check page ten of your rule book. It matches the last section of the SCTA rule which allows you to run up 49mph from your D to C or from your C to B license, and 74mph going from your B to A license, and 99mph from your A to AA license. Which by the way(at SCTA)... can be mailed in to do so after the meet has passed(yeah man... all ya need is mail a copy of your timing slip).
Todd
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The Guthrie premise is not the same.
The speed recorded through the lights is recorded as such and applied to the standard.
Licencing and track orientation includes a demonstration of the ability to properly shut down the vehicle and clear the track from the limited speed.
With the crash, wherever or whenever, how is anyone to judge the merit of the attempt for the upgrade.
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The reference to the insurance company was in answer to the ill advised comment about operating a race vehicle outside a designated are and the resultant liability.
Maxton is not the same as El Mirage or Speedweek so the requirements will differ.
It was abuse if the privilege that caused the removal of the drive back allowance that was combined with the size of the crowd.
Dan Warner can speak with authority on the objective for the licencing program at SCTA.
The number for the insurance company is listed in the SCTA rulebook and I am sure Bob would provide his view, having been to a number of SCTA events.
Tell them I sent you and be sure to report back on your findings.
To everybody else, let Todd (or Deb LOL) do the research and then decide about your comments after you hear back.
"Better understanding makes for a better result." (me)
THX
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TO BE CONTINUED :-)
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Scott,
Would we all think the same if a rider hit a "Pot Hole" in the shutdown area of Maxton causing an accident?
So the rule book should state for the ECTA "A successful attempt will be a run from the start, thru the timing lights, dodging the orange cones, missing the pot hole, navigating any loose gravel, making the hard right turn, and continue on to impound area"
And if same result would have happened that a rider completed a run from the start thru the timing traps and ran something over maneuvering the right hand turnout and had a flat tire on the return road to impound, lost control and fell over. Would they also be denied? They still wont get a license... Interesting.
Jon
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With all emotion aside, the objective of a licenseing program is to demonstrate the ability to handle a high performance vehicle in a safe and controlled manner.
The granting of an upgrade is the reward for safely completing the required step in the licensing process. An unwritten but, followed SCTA-BNI procedure is to allow a 2-3 mph above the license speed, i.e. 174-177mph when going from the D to C level. The license run is observed by the starter, the tower and the course workers. If you do not hear anything from these people about the run then it is safe to assume that all went well.
A successful run will include leaving the starting area in a safe manner, not running off course outside the marked sidelines, timely parachute deployment, turning to correct side of the course and clearing the course. The general public does not hear the radio chatter concerning runs that do not meet the basic criteria. If you see Lee Kennedy making his way to the far end you will know that something untoward has happened on the run.
An example of an experienced driver having trouble occured at Speedweek last year. Said driver later explained that someone other the the regular person had helped him in the car. He was not comfortable and when leaving the line was having a hard time seeing the oil pressure gauge. The driver steered across the long course side line and when he looked up he thought he was against the left line. He then steered to the right and continued to accelerate. At about the two mile mark he realized that the timing stand was on the wrong side of the car, he was on the short course. The driver immediatly shut down and stopped. If this had happened to someone with less experience the probability of an incident was very high.
This is a short story about the importance of a monitored license program. There are many times that drivers/riders are required to rerun a license step because of problem either during the run or the shutdown procedure.
Ask Bill Taylor or Glen Barrett about licensing, I think you will be surprised at how closely this is monitored.
DW
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Dan -
Thanks for your thoughts. This discussion brings to mind another question: What exactly does a license provide for both the racer, and the sponsoring organization?
I've got a couple of my own thoughts, but, I'd really enjoy hearing from those w/a lot more smarts & experience than I have.
Ray Kimbro
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So does this make Deb the fastest women biker , without her bike ? :wink:
I believe so...But TJ still holds the skid record :lol:
as for the Humor of the responders...one of the best assessment tools available.
dumb silly joke and they smile,overall mental capacity is intact
the decreased tension is a great bonus.(paramedic of 21 years here)
I saw Deb get the best of care.
as for the license,once past 175 your good to go to 249.
should she /should she not keep it controversy,seems like a board question that should take
more than a day to decide...Hell the "protested team" had to wait about 5 weeks for an answer.
regardless I'm positive she will get it...known Deb to long to see it not happen.
I remember a story of her riding thru a tornado to go to work!!!
If it wasn't for the rule about both hands on the controls she would have
been back Sunday morning to try again...
Again Deb best wishes for a fast and full healing...
But you have my permission to milk it awhile and let Todd do all the housework.
Darrin
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Dan,
That all sounds like a really nice way to handle licensing. My problem is that I WAS issued an A license at the track. I was then publicly congratulated by the race director for achieving the A license. Then a short time later I was publicly told my A license was being revoked. At no point in time have I ever been spoken to directly or privately about this. At no time have I been directly spoken to in regards to obtaining or not obtaining the license and why or why not it should or shouldn't happen.
The issue I had on the track, in my opinion, was not relevant to the speed I had just achieved. It was target fixation plain and simple. It could have happened with a trap speed of 200, it could have happened at a trap speed of 185. It was my mistake and I own it and I'm paying for it.
It is really a non-issue whether or not I have an A license. The rule book clearly states that with having my B license I'm well within the regulations to show up next meet and run another 212 run whether I have the A license or the B license.
What I don't appreciate is the public embarrassment and ridicule with the debate on if I'm skilled enough to have the A license. I'm not the only one that has ever hit a cone on this track. I'm not the only one to have hit a cone at this meet. Unfortunately I'm the only one that went down for doing it.
It would be really nice if all of you would remember that there is a person with feelings behind this debate. It's hard enough to stand before you all and state that after nearly 100,000 miles of road riding in various and all road & weather conditions, 45 runs down the maxton track, 8 runs on the drag strip that I would fall victim to target fixation, that I made a mistake, that I wrecked a sponsors bike, that I broke my collarbone, that I took myself out of the next race at a critical point in history.
The A license is on it's way back to Keith as we speak. I'll show up the next time I'm cleared to run and I will rerun my licensing pass. It's really a non-issue to me. The way this entire thing has been handled IS an issue with me. Maybe the ECTA can take a good look at it's beloved SCTA and learn a thing or two about decorum.
Just my humble inexperienced non-riding non-skilled non-licensed opinion from the hot seat.
Deb
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Deb has taken her rightful position as a very experienced rider that just added more to that experience than most ever will.
She has shared every bit that is appropriate so that everybody can learn from her experience.
Lets hope the sport overall is better for her efforts that include the successes everybody champions and the failures that many deny but share none the less.
You can bet there is some feminine pride driving some of this in her , but it is the accomplishment in total that will count in the long run.
"Treat the rider like a rider and not a novelty."
I think you will find she will appreciate that more than just about anything.
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Deb -
I think we all appreciate that you weren't the only one to make a mistake in this situation. I see NO reason for you to feel any embarrassment - your accomplishment stands on it's own, and I, among many, am SO proud of you I could bust! And I hope you are, too. Regardless of technicalities, there's no question in anyone's mind that A) You're qualified to run as fast as the bike will carry you and
B) You owe an apology to no one (except maybe Scott, who doesn't seem to see a need for one either).
As soon as you can race, I look forward to seeing you go out there and smoke the track.
Dan
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Deb, Congrats on the 212 and hope you are on the mend. I'm sure Scott isn't worried about the bike, just the rider. You earned your A license on that run and it should be awarded. You are not the first to hit a cone in shutdown nor are you the the only one at this meet. Joe?... KT?
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Deb, just a point of view to consider. You seemed to be fine with all the "public" publicity that was thrown at you before the license was taken back, so why get all PO'd when it's "publicly" taken away?
I can certainly understand all of the "you go girl" postings for anyone with these achievements, and I'm certain that you'll get your official "A" license eventually, but very little has been said about another "you go girl" accomplishment. Trillium went faster at the same meet, was blessed with no target fixation, and had alot less "help" to get there. I haven't seen any "hurt feelings" post from her.
You've always impressed me as a female that KNOWS that she can do whatever the fellas are doing, given the same platform, and I feel certain that you can handle most any bike that's handed to you, but the "It would be really nice if all of you would remember that there is a person with feelings behind this debate" just kinda blindsided me. You've always impressed me as someone that required no special treatment due to gender, but at the same time someone that had a burning desire to accomplish as much as she could as a female...something to be very proud of. What happened? Surely you wouldn't want a set of rules based on gender.
From what I can gather, no rider has ever gone down on a licensing run at Maxton, so your run is bringing up all sorts of questions. These guestions should be addressed asap, and they will help the ECTA in the future.
Snal~
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It should be something brought upon a "Committee" for a vote. But since there is no specialized "committee" for the ECTA, I guess it lays in one or two people's judgement???
Its been a year or two since i've been there so I'm not sure how it is handled???
Jon
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Deb, just a point of view to consider. You seemed to be fine with all the "public" publicity that was thrown at you before the license was taken back, so why get all PO'd when it's "publicly" taken away?
I can certainly understand all of the "you go girl" postings for anyone with these achievements, and I'm certain that you'll get your official "A" license eventually, but very little has been said about another "you go girl" accomplishment. Trillium went faster at the same meet, was blessed with no target fixation, and had alot less "help" to get there. I haven't seen any "hurt feelings" post from her.
You've always impressed me as a female that KNOWS that she can do whatever the fellas are doing, given the same platform, and I feel certain that you can handle most any bike that's handed to you, but the "It would be really nice if all of you would remember that there is a person with feelings behind this debate" just kinda blindsided me. You've always impressed me as someone that required no special treatment due to gender, but at the same time someone that had a burning desire to accomplish as much as she could as a female...something to be very proud of. What happened? Surely you wouldn't want a set of rules based on gender.
From what I can gather, no rider has ever gone down on a licensing run at Maxton, so your run is bringing up all sorts of questions. These guestions should be addressed asap, and they will help the ECTA in the future.
Snal~
First I must state that I am proud of both of the "girls" for what they have done.
I would think that Deb would get to hold an "A" license as she seems to have completed the requirements and did not crash "in the lights" or take out the timing equipment during the 212 mph pass.
Second, a big congrats also to Trilly and Jody for the great runs they both made, Jody gets in the ECTA 200 club and Trill comes out the fastest ever female open bike rider period anywhere!
Congrats to Trill, Jody, and Deb and everyone is grateful for the "minor" injuries Deb received.
Scott, if you need and parts for the bike that went down let me know as I have some spares also.
J
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It should be something brought upon a "Committee" for a vote. But since there is no specialized "committee" for the ECTA, I guess it lays in one or two people's judgement???
Its been a year or two since I've been there so I'm not sure how it is handled???
Jon
The scope of the licence run has been explained and that includes all aspects of the attempt from end to end.
The reasons applied are valid and should continue.
The "committee" is in place and consists of all the event personnel charged with the responsibility of observing every run.
They vote with their silent approval or their vocal objection to anything that is wrong or incomplete.
Did i get it right ? :roll:
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Jack - yes,
Deb,
While we have never met I feel that I know you as a LSR competitor. You get high praise from those that know you and race with you. My response was to point out what a license program should be. I, of all people, know that there are individuals involved in our sport. I
would have it no other way.
I hope to be able to make a Maxton meet and introduce myself to everyone I know from this forum.
DW
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Dan, are you sure you want to visit Maxton? It's in Scotland County, North Carolina, and it's a dry county -- no beer allowed.
We'll see you on the Salt.
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Dan has turned over a new leaf and his diet is now mostly barley, hops, spring water and Vitamin P.
He strives to be all natural. :wink:
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Dan, are you sure you want to visit Maxton? It's in Scotland County, North Carolina, and it's a dry county -- no beer allowed.
We'll see you on the Salt.
I guess I won't see him visiting Blanding either then :cry:,
Sum
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Dan, fear not. There is almost always cold beer in the Snart pit. Cold Canadian beer if I'm in attendance.
Consider that an invitation.
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Deb
this is not a public smack down... if jon was to poll this I'm sure we would vote to give it to ya.
The license thing is no big deal, if they don't give it to ya today you'll get it next month. treat every run as a lic run. last year i was .992 tho off of my unlimited lic (299.008) we put a 300mph tune up in it and broke 5 more times trying :cry:... I'll get it next year, and i'm damn well sure you'll get yours.
Kent
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Thanks Kent!
That's actually a really good thought that I will remember.
Todd approaches each run as if it were his last. Meaning he gives the bike all he's got as if it were his last run of the meet.
This way if the bike blows he knows he didn't hold back and he won't go home disappointed.
treat every run as a lic run.
Todd and I really like this statement. I think if I add your thought of each run being a licensing run it will help to keep me safe. If I think that each run is taking
me to a new level it will help to keep me grounded and to not go to far to soon.
Thanks for the thoughts!
Here's to us both reaching our next level at our next event!
(you were SOOOO close! ;) but now you have something to go back for! :) )
Deb
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Deb, just a point of view to consider. You seemed to be fine with all the "public" publicity that was thrown at you before the license was taken back, so why get all PO'd when it's "publicly" taken away?
I can certainly understand all of the "you go girl" postings for anyone with these achievements, and I'm certain that you'll get your official "A" license eventually, but very little has been said about another "you go girl" accomplishment. Trillium went faster at the same meet, was blessed with no target fixation, and had alot less "help" to get there. I haven't seen any "hurt feelings" post from her.
You've always impressed me as a female that KNOWS that she can do whatever the fellas are doing, given the same platform, and I feel certain that you can handle most any bike that's handed to you, but the "It would be really nice if all of you would remember that there is a person with feelings behind this debate" just kinda blindsided me. You've always impressed me as someone that required no special treatment due to gender, but at the same time someone that had a burning desire to accomplish as much as she could as a female...something to be very proud of. What happened? Surely you wouldn't want a set of rules based on gender.
From what I can gather, no rider has ever gone down on a licensing run at Maxton, so your run is bringing up all sorts of questions. These guestions should be addressed asap, and they will help the ECTA in the future.
Snal~
First I must state that I am proud of both of the "girls" for what they have done.
I would think that Deb would get to hold an "A" license as she seems to have completed the requirements and did not crash "in the lights" or take out the timing equipment during the 212 mph pass.
Second, a big congrats also to Trilly and Jody for the great runs they both made, Jody gets in the ECTA 200 club and Trill comes out the fastest ever female open bike rider period anywhere!
Congrats to Trill, Jody, and Deb and everyone is grateful for the "minor" injuries Deb received.
Scott, if you need and parts for the bike that went down let me know as I have some spares also.
J
John
Thanks again for all you have done for nickel city racing.. Trillium
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thanks to everyone on here that congratulated Jody and myself on our runs.....Jon , Kent , Larry , Scott , MM , Snal , John Noonan , Debbie , Todd. thank you all.......Trillium
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Jack - yes,
Deb,
While we have never met I feel that I know you as a LSR competitor. You get high praise from those that know you and race with you. My response was to point out what a license program should be. I, of all people, know that there are individuals involved in our sport. I
would have it no other way.
I hope to be able to make a Maxton meet and introduce myself to everyone I know from this forum.
DW
Thanks Dan that was very nice of you to say. I look forward to the day we get to meet, either on your turf or ours!
Deb
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Deb,
When I told you to brake when you saw God, you must know that sometime he comes in all shapes, even cones. :wink:
Just a little humor.
I was the inspector that signed your time ticket for that run and it stands for that moment in time at that very second. You WERE the fastest woman. Then of course, trillium made her next run. But for that moment in time, you WERE it girl. As far as your 'A' license, I know you will kick ass at the Sept. event once you are all healed. As a Tiger Racing sponsored racer, anything you need, just let us know.
And never fear, I hear the Guthrie machine will live to race another day and it too is a Tiger Racing sponsored bike. The Guthrie laboratories are working tirelessly to rebuild it.
see you soon,
Guy
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Deb,
When I told you to brake when you saw God, you must know that sometime he comes in all shapes, even cones. :wink:
Just a little humor.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/rotfl.gif) (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/rotfl.gif) (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/rotfl.gif)
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/Jumping_cones_2.gif)
I was the inspector that signed your time ticket for that run and it stands for that moment in time at that very second. You WERE the fastest woman.
Yes, thank you very much :D it makes it a whole lot easier sitting here not being able to ride knowing I held the title for 2 1/2 hours.
But you have to admit, that was a pretty good plan making everyone stop racing so I could hold the title a little longer! (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/rotfl.gif)
Then of course, trillium made her next run. But for that moment in time, you WERE it girl.
Trillium is a good rider and competitor. They've put a lot of work into their bike so I honestly didn't think I had a chance to top her this meet. I'll take squeezing in between her runs for now! I don't think there was any doubt she was going home with the title!
As far as your 'A' license, I know you will kick ass at the Sept. event once you are all healed. As a Tiger Racing sponsored racer, anything you need, just let us know.
And never fear, I hear the Guthrie machine will live to race another day and it too is a Tiger Racing sponsored bike. The Guthrie laboratories are working tirelessly to rebuild it.
see you soon,
Guy
Thanks as always for your generosity Guy!
Deb
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Deb -
I don't know about everyone, but I know I'm proud of both you and Trillium, and I bet we all are. You both have considerably larger cojones that I have. Anything over about 55 on a bike is plenty for me! If I ever make 200, there will be doors involved.
I hope no one feels to need to conjure up a rivalry between you two, like folks are trying to do with Danika and Milka. No need for that. I want to see EVERYONE at Maxton do well. As I've mentioned before, as the father of daughters, I especially want to see all of the women do well, to hasten the day when no one feels the need to say "she rides well - for a girl" and will replace that with "she rides well". Probably not fair, but in this venue, you two (and the other woman, who's name, I apologize, I do not remember) are the trailblazers. So Ride On!! And thanks for breaking the trail so my daughters (and now, grand daughters) will have fewer barriers.
Dan
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Thanks Dan!
I am not at all interested in any "negative" rivalry between myself and Trillium or any of the other women in this sport. In my opinion there is not enough of us! I don't care if each and every one of them is faster then me. My goal is to promote us all in a positive light. That's not to say there won't be a little smack talk from time to time ;) but from my vantage point, if you're faster then me put it down and raise the bar. It's up to me to run faster and maybe some day I'll get the chance to raise the bar myself. If and when that happens I'll be cheering on the next gal and telling her if I can do it so can you! I mean heck, there's an awful lot of records set by men. If us gals are going to conquer them all we're going to have to work together! :-D
Believe me I've suffered a lifetime of "girls shouldn't drive hot rods", "girls shouldn't work on cars", blah blah blah. Heck, my 8th grade guidance counselor, when I told him I wanted to be an auto mechanic, told me you don't want to do that, that's not a job for a girl. :roll: So here I am 26 or so years later and I still have a wrench in my hand. I would like nothing more then to live to see the day that the "for a girl" part was dropped from every conversation!
In all honesty one of the things I like the most about LSR is the fact that being a woman in this sport is for the most part celebrated and a positive thing. The guys are supportive and encouraging and mostly not condescending. There's still a few of the good ole boys out there ;) but it's getting fewer & farther in between. Not that I looking for accolades because I'm a woman. I'm just looking to be another racer making accomplishments amongst the other racers!
I'm on board with you hoping that the future generation of female racers are merely considered racers. If I can be a positive part of that then that would just be really cool! 8-)
Deb (happily referred to for years by my mentor as "the girl")
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Deb
You have my support. I admire you for everything you do.
Glen
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Deb from what I see you are someone I would love for my girls to look up to.You have more respect than you will ever know.
terry
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....................... I would like nothing more then to live to see the day that the "for a girl" part was dropped from every conversation!....................
.
The day should be now. Considering the women in the 300 mph and 200 mph club, along with championships in NHRA and what they have done in open wheel and stock cars women are already "racers" and not "women racers". In our sport as JackD tries to point out time and again their average smaller physical size can be a big bonus. Sooner or later the guys might want a handicap :evil: .
Any person that runs over 200 on a bike gets my respect and it is the same whether they are male or female.
c ya,
Sum
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:-o
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LSR or dry lakes racing goes back to the 1930's. NHRA came along in the late 40's started by a lakes racer, Wally Parks. There were several Girls racing back then, They just get more visability now because of the media. I don't see what the big deal is if they get the attention and a free ride sometimes.
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LSR or dry lakes racing goes back to the 1930's. NHRA came along in the late 40's started by a lakes racer, Wally Parks. There were several Girls racing back then, They just get more visability now because of the media. I don't see what the big deal is if they get the attention and a free ride sometimes.
I don't get the big deal of the boy / girl thing. Females can do exactly what males can. I get a kick out of it when a guy gets upset because a girl beats him. Getting beat is getting beat, no matter by whom. I will admit, I am one of those few males that will get on the back of a bike with a woman driving. Doesn't bother me at all, but you should hear the comments I get. :roll:
Bill
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Kaz
you are way, way off base with that comment... maybe that's why your divorced more than once.... but listen pal, just because you took Georges drag bike school yes you can consider yourself a psm racer even though you have never raced or qualified at a nhra event. but taking his school doesnt meen you will get his next ride.... the "GIRL" got the ride 'cuz she "brought" $ to the table "NOT" because of the potential "$" she "might" bring. Maybe scott did have his own agenda for "his" bike. if he wanted to to have the worlds fastest "girl" on his bike good on him! I think he picked the right person. If he wants to have the worlds fasted racer in "GAY" green leathers ya better bring some money! It's a harsh world out ther buddy, and just like i told ya in May when ya wanted to race one of my bikes, "ass, gas, or cash, nobody races for free!"
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Kaz
"ass, gas, or cash, nobody races for free!"
A little hard, but life is a bitch, :evil: You said it well!
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Hey Kaz,
You could trade me your motorcycle trailer and Ill let you ride for one event.
However, Richard Thomason rides for free, he gives us some of those great Honey Crisps Apples....
Jon
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yep...
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Friends helping friends do well.
Isn't that the way it should be?
Never a truer word was spoken.
Guy
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[ :-P
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:roll:
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Well , with all the comments, views, and drama, this has brought more attention together to a single incident at Maxton that one could imagine.
All the "hens and roosters" are just posturing and have lost sight of the real objective.
Congratulations for the accomplishments and level headed response to the failures should be the where the effort is made with the result being the sport will be better for it.
" Don't jump any higher than you are prepared to eventually land on your feet and always be ready to walk." (me) :wink:
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well spaz,i guess you don't get it... my posts and others here have nothing but praise and advise for Deb... your post was a "poor poor me and why do all the girls get what i think i deserve" your attempt to "burst her bubble" with comments like " it makes me sick" undermine other woman in all racing industries (including a lady business owner who is your only sponsor) and doesn't set well with me. Your comments were way off base. Instead of an apology to Deb and women racers you attacked me.... good boy... good boy.... your gonna go far in racing! I think your opinions of me and attempts to enlighten me of what others think of me are amusing. Unlike you, i don't give a crap what others think of me!
out
Kent
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Well said.....Kent!!!!!!!!!!!!
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well he deleted his comments so I couldn't follow the last two comments he made.... I'm betting they were fun :)
Jon
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well he deleted his comments so I couldn't follow the last two comments he made.... I'm betting they were fun :)
Jon
They were... :wink:
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well he deleted his comments so I couldn't follow the last two comments he made.... I'm betting they were fun :)
Jon
They were... :wink:
Jon,
No more keyboard Jousting with Kunt it's not worth the hassle :wink:.
To all the Female Racer's congratulations for the Great Runs at Maxton!
Hope you Heal up fast ,and have Great Season 8-)
To anyone else I might have offended SORRY that was Not my intention :oops:
Hope You all Have a Great Day,
Kaz........... :mrgreen:
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Kaz,
Landracing should be fun, but sometimes what some people think is humor is hurtful. We all have our days when something is said that someone may misinterpret. Jack, Kent Stainless, SSS, The Grate Scott and myself have alot of years racing. We have seen people come and people go, some do good, some learn it is harder than they thought and move on to something else. I hope to see you on the salt and good luck. I like to see new people help the sport grow.
John
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Kaz,
Landracing should be fun, but sometimes what some people think is humor is hurtful. We all have our days when something is said that someone may misinterpret. Jack, Kent Stainless, SSS, The Grate Scott and myself have alot of years racing. We have seen people come and people go, some do good, some learn it is harder than they thought and move on to something else. I hope to see you on the salt and good luck. I like to see new people help the sport grow.
John
"The Grate Scott", now that is a funny right there ! :-D
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I just have a bad habit of coming to the defense of my friends... just one of the many services i provide at my new business " Smack downs from us!" :-D
Kent
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well said kent, i love the new business, smackdowns from us, were can i apply
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"The Grate Scott", now that is a funny right there ! :-D
Yea, I think he has grated on most at one time or another... :-D :-D Just kidding Scott... :wink:
Glad y'all settled your problem without having to go outside... :-o
Deb, good to hear you are doing well, Keep us posted, on a new post, this one strayed around a bit and a 7 pages should be about done :|
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Yea, I think he has grated on most at one time or another... Just kidding Scott...
Hmmmmm........
If we do this to go fast, I guess that would make me a
"Speed Grater..."
Oh the cheesiness, I just can't take it!
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/DahMurf/Smileys/rotfl.gif)
Deb
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THE END :-D
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"Friends helping friends do well.
Isn't that the way it should be?"
Yes.
Thanks for all your and Ellen's help, Scott.
Walt