Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Mile High Talon on March 12, 2007, 03:55:17 PM
-
What thread/pitch/head machine screw fasteners do most use to attach their plain old non-Dzus Moon discs?
The hex-head self-thread machine screws received from Moon are so long they require an included plastic bushing/washer, and they don't have an aero profile or sleek finished look. Since they only sent 12, and I need at least 24, I'll use whatever is preferred by the inspectors, or used by most racers, or could go with S/S machine screws with a radiused-crown allen head.
Thanks,
James LaMere
Mile High Talon
Denver, CO
-
In the past I used 10-32 machine screws with a button head. Add a little gorilla snot to the threads when you install them so they don't back out.
Glen
-
I have also used 10-32 but now have the Dzuse button Moons. Get them. It's just not worth fooling with the little screws every time you want to check air pressure or wheel bearings. After a while, you will start putting it off.
-
Ditto what Rich said. I've got Moons on my pickup -- and the screw-on type wouldn't stay put. They'd loosen just enough that I'd hear click-click, then in the mirror I'd see a disc pulling out to pass me. I kept tightening them -- that didn't help enough, either.
The button-type I've got on the pickup now stayed quiet -- and stayed on -- all last summer without a whimper. I can check air pressure easier, too -- just like he said. Pretty soon it'll be warm up here, the salt on the roads and the snow in the driveways will be gone, and I can put the Moons back on the truck. Of course there's one potential hassle -- when I had the winter tires put on the rims they bent the mounting tabs in a bit -- now I've gotta figure out how much to pull them out before I can make the buttons fit. Life is rough in the Great White North.
We went snowshoeing off our deck yesterday. I betcha not many of you can say that (yeah, I know, you don't want to be able to say that, either...).
-
To start, put the valve stems in the back of the wheel.
If you are going to run them only on the street, Ansen make SS disks that look the same but without the buttons or screws.
They go on like a regular full wheel cap and stay..
The reason for the little nylon washer or the Dzus fasteners is to give them a little movement so they don't come loose when the wheel flexes.
No matter what kind of a screw you use they will all come loose and the Yellow Snot (old school) or Liquid Teflon (trick new stuff) in a tube will take care of it. :wink:
-
No matter what kind of a screw you use they will all come loose and the Yellow Snot (old school) or Liquid Teflon (trick new stuff) in a tube will take care of it. :wink:
Who says you can't teach an old dog new.... :-o
-
One of the setups I made some small kidney shaped washers with two holes. They were 1" wide. So the disk had six mounting holes and took some of the bending away from a single screw.Never had one come loose, also used gorilla snot on the threads, it didn't allow the holes to wear as well.
-
You did not state what type of wheel you were going to attach them to. A 10-32 will give you the most threads in a steel wheel. I would use 10-24's in aluminum and I do. I purchase stainless steel Allen button head head screws from McMaster-Carr by the box. I also use flat washers. They are a little areo-dynamic.
I have never had a screw on a disc come loose either on steel or aluminum since 1975. I apply never-seize/silver goop to the aluminum ones.. Good Luck
-
I use 10-32 SSflat heads- that way they are flush w/ disc
-
McMaster-Carr is a GREAT supplier of all sorts of goodies, from fasteners to tools,etc.
Usually next day delivery. With the cost of gas these days it's more cost effective to order on-line and have UPS burn the fuel. M/C has a great selection and realistic minimum quantities for ordering.
-
These will only be used on the Salt on steel wheels. Thanks for all the responses! I purchased 10-32 S/S allens w/button heads today, a 10-32 tap, & #21 drill bit, and got one wheel done this afternoon.
James
Mile High Talon
-
Ditto what Rich said. I've got Moons on my pickup -- and the screw-on type wouldn't stay put. They'd loosen just enough that I'd hear click-click, then in the mirror I'd see a disc pulling out to pass me. I kept tightening them -- that didn't help enough, either.
The button-type I've got on the pickup now stayed quiet -- and stayed on -- all last summer without a whimper. I can check air pressure easier, too -- just like he said. Pretty soon it'll be warm up here, the salt on the roads and the snow in the driveways will be gone, and I can put the Moons back on the truck. Of course there's one potential hassle -- when I had the winter tires put on the rims they bent the mounting tabs in a bit -- now I've gotta figure out how much to pull them out before I can make the buttons fit. Life is rough in the Great White North.
We went snowshoeing off our deck yesterday. I betcha not many of you can say that (yeah, I know, you don't want to be able to say that, either...).
Some of the cars I have seen using "Dzus" or button fasteners only have 3 per wheel, Is there some allowance for these to use 3 instead of 6 per wheel? Is there someone that markets ready made tabs to weld onto my steel wheels? Thanks for your help in this.
-
Call Moon, they advertise evrywhere and are Landspeed racers and friendly!
Simple!
You worry too much.
-
You'll need the jig and the parts -
http://www.mooneyesusa.com/moon-discs-c-188_211.html
-
I used my handy little home-made countersinking anvil that I made for our Al body, carefully measured out the spacing and then drilled once I'd dimpled the disc.....the difference in what I was doing Is that we fastened through the centre NOT to the rim.Our discs have a "nipple" in the centre and I drilled through the raised section of the centre(about 4" in) and welded some stainless nuts on the back, then used M8 stainless countersunk flat heads. didn't rattle loose, a little slow to get off .
Now , I'd post a pic but Jon's cuss-filter won't let my photobucket account link up to this site................
-
Ditto what Rich said. I've got Moons on my pickup -- and the screw-on type wouldn't stay put. They'd loosen just enough that I'd hear click-click, then in the mirror I'd see a disc pulling out to pass me. I kept tightening them -- that didn't help enough, either.
The button-type I've got on the pickup now stayed quiet -- and stayed on -- all last summer without a whimper. I can check air pressure easier, too -- just like he said. Pretty soon it'll be warm up here, the salt on the roads and the snow in the driveways will be gone, and I can put the Moons back on the truck. Of course there's one potential hassle -- when I had the winter tires put on the rims they bent the mounting tabs in a bit -- now I've gotta figure out how much to pull them out before I can make the buttons fit. Life is rough in the Great White North.
We went snowshoeing off our deck yesterday. I betcha not many of you can say that (yeah, I know, you don't want to be able to say that, either...).
Some of the cars I have seen using "Dzus" or button fasteners only have 3 per wheel, Is there some allowance for these to use 3 instead of 6 per wheel? Is there someone that markets ready made tabs to weld onto my steel wheels? Thanks for your help in this.
The 2009 SCTA rule book 2.G page 20 last paragraph "full wheel discs " " " if secuely fastened to the wheels with 6 or more machine screws or 3 Dzus-type fastners.
-
Thanks:Dynoroom, Mil.Midget, Dr. Googles, Int. Bystander, I found what each of you said helpfull. About the 6 vs. 3 fasteners, I was thinking of what I had read in an older rule book, Thanks for the clarification. :cheers:
-
I picked a disk off the course at WF this year of a corvette that used screws, he lost both rear disks. We use 3 dzus' and have never had a problem.
-
The Dzus fastener was designed back in WWII to hold on engine cowling panels and such on airplanes and being able to stay latched while experiencing heavy vibration was one of the major design parameters. To me it looks like the only option worth considering. There have been some new aero quick release fastners design mainly because of strength but the old Dzus is a pretty good fastner for our applications.
Rex
-
our experience---definitely go with the DZUS
-
Putting Loctite on the screws should fasten the Moon discs securely-- not as quick to get them off as with Dzus fasteners, though.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
Screw-into-the-rim: Lasted a few months on the pickup, eventually worked loose and sent the discs sailing along the interstates.
Dzus -- installed with the Moon jig, and only three per wheel: Have been on the pickup, without any incidents or losses, for two full racing seasons. Each season includes 10-20,000 miles of driving including not only interstates but also gravel washboard roads. Never once have I had one work loose, much less fail. I recommend cleaning the spring wire at the end of and beginning of each season, though -- they wire will corrode and make installation and removal of the button difficult. By the way, I don't run the discs during our winters since the salt and other crud will harm the aluminum. I use factory steel wheels during winter -- which also means I don't have to mount or remount winter and summer tires on the wheels. Doing that is difficult with the welded-on tabs -- most tire mounting machines want to bend the tabs inward during the mounting process.
later -- it's almost winter and I need to attend to removing the Moon discs from the pickup.
-
The 3 Dzus set up from Moon is the way to go. You can get the jig from them for $50.....when you send it back they will credit you the $50 back to the charge card you used.
Simple and effective.
Charles
-
Back to moon discs for my '09 GMC pickup that's got 17" aluminum wheels. Here's today's update and a new question:
First of all, it turns out that the spare tire/wheel that comes with the truck -- is a 16", not a 17". So -- did GM give me a non-usable spare, or will the 16" fit after all (the shops have all told me that the 16" won't fit because of interference with the calipers). So the other evening I dismounted the 17" and put first the old 16", from my '04 pickup, and then the 16" spare from the '09, on the right rear. There's less than an eighth of an inch clearance with the factory 16" '09, and a tiny bit less (hard to get a feeler in there to get a real measurement) with the old wheel. But -- both fit. I've got a full set of the old 16" wheels and would like to use those instead of buying all new 16" '09 wheels, of course.
So the question is: Is there an absolute minimum of clearance that is REQUIRED between wheel and the stationary parts in the system -- or is "it doesn't rub" good enough? I can't imagine there's any flexing of the wheel while in use, so the biggest problem I can see is the potential for buildup of crud. And the turning wheel would clean itself, I should think.
If I don't hear one of you telling me not to try it I'll mount all four of the old wheels on the truck and drive it down the road for a few miles to see what happens. The tires on them are too small and therefore will be replaced by bigger ones -- but I don't want to spring for a new set and then (and only then) discover that the wheels just won't work.
Any comments?
-
If they don't rub they should be fine. Most trucks come standard with 16" wheels 17" are the upgrade option.
Back to moon discs for my '09 GMC pickup that's got 17" aluminum wheels. Here's today's update and a new question:
First of all, it turns out that the spare tire/wheel that comes with the truck -- is a 16", not a 17". So -- did GM give me a non-usable spare, or will the 16" fit after all (the shops have all told me that the 16" won't fit because of interference with the calipers). So the other evening I dismounted the 17" and put first the old 16", from my '04 pickup, and then the 16" spare from the '09, on the right rear. There's less than an eighth of an inch clearance with the factory 16" '09, and a tiny bit less (hard to get a feeler in there to get a real measurement) with the old wheel. But -- both fit. I've got a full set of the old 16" wheels and would like to use those instead of buying all new 16" '09 wheels, of course.
So the question is: Is there an absolute minimum of clearance that is REQUIRED between wheel and the stationary parts in the system -- or is "it doesn't rub" good enough? I can't imagine there's any flexing of the wheel while in use, so the biggest problem I can see is the potential for buildup of crud. And the turning wheel would clean itself, I should think.
If I don't hear one of you telling me not to try it I'll mount all four of the old wheels on the truck and drive it down the road for a few miles to see what happens. The tires on them are too small and therefore will be replaced by bigger ones -- but I don't want to spring for a new set and then (and only then) discover that the wheels just won't work.
Any comments?
-
Not this truck, though. The 17" is standard -- 16 not available. but, I did find -- the 3/4 and 1-ton vans come with 16" -- and so either GM has two different brake arrangements for the trucks and the vans -- or the 16's will fit.
By the way -- there's a very small, but discernible, difference in the inside of the wheels -- a section on the "new" 16s is just a tad lower than on the "old" ones -- giving about one RCH more clearance. But like I said, there appears to be no rubbing. I'll take your word (but'll listen for other comments) and then put the old ones on the truck and go for a ride, then remove and look for scrapes and shiny spots.
-
Put a few layers of masking tape on, then look for rub through or hitting..
-
Another good idea. I'll put it on the calipers -- the wheels are pretty-well corroded up from having gone to the Salt for a few years. Thanks.
-
Well, yesterday it was a fine, 45F day -- so I spent a little while and swapped the factory 17" wheels/tires for the old 16" ones I've got -- the ones that already have the Dzus tabs mounted.
And all is fine. the fit, don't scrape or even go "ching, ching, ching" as I drive down the road.
So the next question is about the absolute minimum required clearance -- and why it is required. What is likely to happen that'd make the wheels and calipers interfere with one another? Will the calipers move far enough towards the wheel "spokes" to rub? I don't think so -- there's lots of room. Will the calipers grow with heat and move outwards, towards the inside of the rim? I doubt it, but maybe. How much is the absolute minimum clearance, or how much growth might I expect? Are there other issues I haven't thought about that I'll need to consider?
I'll visit the dealership where the service manager and service writer both said that the swap wouldn't work. I expect they're going to give me the "factory" line on why I shouldn't do it. I'd like your comments to offer on why I (we) think it'll be okay to have such-and-such clearance -- or maybe you'll convince me that if it clears now -- it's good enough.
Okay, the floor is open to you all. Let's hear from you.
-
Gee -- If the 16's won't work -- why the 16" spare?
And if they taper in a little where the clearance is tight -- how about a 1/4-inch spacer to set them out a little.
And if the calipers are red-hot and expanding that much, they're probably not much good on the rotors, either, and you may want them interfering with the wheels!
Stand Back!
-
SSS,
If you have 1/8" clearance then you will be OK.
3/16" is better, but 1/8" is enough.
Charles
-
Jon,
I talked to a friend of mine today, and he's done the swap and because there's so much material on the calipers, an extra 1/8 inch of material ground off of the outside circumference has no effect on the strength or performance, but gives room for stones etc. that could get in there and make noise. I wouldn't worry about removing a little material on the backside. :cheers:
Doug
-
Just keep in mind, that if you ever change rotors & pads at the same time it may move closer to the wheel.
put on gobs of tape till it hits, then cut thru to check thickness, = clearance.. sorta like modeling clay..
-
It's the circumference of the wheel/caliper that's close -- not the distance between the wheel hub or spokes. No issues yet -- with about 100 miles of around-town driving. I'll be swapping back to the factory wheels/tires any day. I'll look for wear marks (hope I don't find any) and will do some cleanup on the old wheels and Dzus tabs. They're rusty after many trips to the Salt (I wonder why?) so I'll sandblast away the worst of the crud. It's bad enough on the tabs that I can hardly turn the Dzus buttons in their holes -- the wire has grown just enough, and is cruddy enough - that they'll barely move. Not what I want in case we're in the middle of Bumf**k Nebraska, on the roadside with a flat tire that needs changing.
-
SSS,
BumF*#K Nebraska ??? I guess we have all broken down near there LOL :cheers: :cheers:
Sounds like you and VP Biden took cursing lessons from the same place :cheers:
See ya in a few weeks...
Charles
-
BF, Nebraska, is about 105 miles from that other indeterminate location -- Goosecrotch, Kansas. Neither is where you want to be on a weekend when your vehicle suffers a breakdown.
-
Have found the darkness of night and wetness of weather can also enter into the equation along with location for breakdown "fun factor"........
Ed