Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: hawkwind on February 17, 2007, 12:00:09 AM
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There has been a great deal of dissatisfaction with the current motorcycle leathers rule ,both here and over in your neck of the woods ,so my friends what is the best rule/s we can implement , as Im responsible for setting the M/C rules for the DLRA Im completly open to all suggestions ,and would like to hear all points of view
Gary
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I did a whole thing on this just now and went to add a smile and the whole thing went poof.
I gotta get back in the mood and I will redo it.
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Jack,
BUMMER! When a smile turns to a frown.
It woud be nice if Computers had a little pop-up the said "are you really really sure you what to do that?" much like TIVO or DVRs.
Funny how it only happens on long posts or E-mails.
May the rest of your day be better!
Tom
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if its possible.... use a bit of common sense, not uninformed paranoid grandure.
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I would go with whatever JackD comes up with. There are two advantages to this plan:
1) He is very likely to be right and you will thus look like a hero.
2) Any negative feedback and you can blame JackD and start a flame war.
Best of luck with the rule making, a thanless but critical task. I think you can count on this board to steer you in all possible directions thus ruining the rest of your life. I set up complex procedures in hospitals and follow a real simple plan.
Gather information.
Make a plan and implement
deal with the consequences.
Anyone makes a big stink, they take over.
If they try and give it back, just say no.
Whatever you do don't waste a lot of time considering all the options. Treat it like artillery, fire a round down range and the adjust accordingly.
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Well I think you guys got it and the list is very much along the same lines.
The key to the success will be the strength in numbers that can't be denied.
I have made a project out of certain people and things but not before giving them a long time to hang way out.
My daughter has set up the puter and most things are automatic.
It will often say to me "Don't touch me there." and as you guessed, sometimes I listen. :wink:
"Never try to corner anything that is tougher, meaner, smarter, and more experienced than you are.
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scta does not allow the "hump" on the back of leathers in non streamline classes right?
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if its possible.... use a bit of common sense, not uninformed paranoid grandeur.
"Uninformed paranoid grandeur" is not the theme I see among the biker entries and they are smarter than that.
The target seems to exhibit those leanings however.
While some entries jump right in with some pretty meaningful and legitimate complaints, not until a system can be devised to protect the rest of the field can the strength in numbers be effective.
Those numbers have to represent a larger segment of the field to be forceful.
The common sense of fair , simple to understand , and informed rules that are applied to everyone equally will will be most effective.
When I am in a better mood, I will outline the steps i think might work.
A common interest and public format will be the best but until I talk with Mr. Amo I am reluctant to put him in that position.
THX and WISH US LUCK
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I sorta let the cat out of the box about helmet rules in answer to a challenge on the ECTA site.
I really didn't mean to do it exactly that way and a conversation with AMO may see that moved to a more appropriate forum that might influence all the LSR clubs.
Once again I seem to have the cat by the tail but unless he is fed, his future is not bright because I don't let go.
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having just spent a grand on a SYED custom non perforated no stretch panel leathers which will be kept in a closet for anything but SCTA stuff. Guess I hope it just stays the same so I don't have to pay for more alterations.
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come on blokes ,for so much hand wrenching and winging(whining) about how bad this rule is ,no one has put up an alternative or argument /data for an alternate solution , I came here because the DLRA web site board had lots of negative comments but zero rule change requests or viable alternate solutions ,seems as a rule maker your damned if you do and damned if you dont
Gary
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Gary,you can certainly look back in the archives here as we beat this one to death to no avail. The "all Leather" rule was put in place in reaction to a gentleman getting burned a couple years back. After all was said and done it turned out he was burned not because his leathers had cloth inserts or too many vent holes,he was "steam burned" by his own sweat when hot oil got on his leathers. That can happen to any set of leathers. Are we saying that the leathers that Moto-GP racers wear to protect against crashes at 200+mph are not good enough but the old 2 piece set I have with the old padding are safer because I have no Kevlar and a " minimum" of ventilation holes because they meet the rule as it stands now.Absolutely idiotic.
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Jim is a good example of what I consider an informed opinion.
The problem is the rulers don't listen and it is like "Winking at a girl in the dark."
With the secretive handling of any requested changes, the lack of user input, and the fear of retribution it becomes a real challenge.
I think the workarounds are going to prevail but as I said to someone "It won't be without some consternation followed by some constipation on the part of the target".
Study up because there is going to be a test that your future depends on.
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I think I am going to cry, the shadow of protecting people from themselves has fallen on yet another part of our lives!
The first couple years of racing I would add up the expenses and subtotal gear, bike, and travel seperately. The helmet, leathers, boots, bohn and gloves list always added up to be more money than what was spent on the bike!! Considering a long run like JackD's, I still think this is the BEST way to spend money and I don't need the rule book to convince me of it!
It is not that way anymore. I crash a lot less and think I 'need' a faster bike. :wink:
and now, hopefully, a productive word from our sponser..........
Helmets are not 'measured' by race organizers. The organizers recognize the work of snell/ansi and once they see the current sticker, they tech for condition only. The rider is responsible for chosing between a product from ARAI or from brand JKZ whatever. Both have the 'sticker' and the organizer's lawyers sit still. Which one do you want to pudding bowl down the track in :?
At one of the last AHRMA race I ran, the tech guy did three or four 'quick checks' on each set of leathers that he looked at. He seemed to look at the collar, cuffs, zippers, etc to determine the 'age' of the leathers and make sure everything was there. Then he would grab a handfull of leather on either side arm seam next to that big scuff on the forearm. Gently rolling/pulling the sleeve seam would scare the shit out of the riders with crudy/old leathers. Sometimes you would swear you could see light between the stitches.
I understand this is a 'qualitative' test, but more often than not the gapping seam motivated a new purchase.
Nevermind stretch panels or vent holes...the general condition seems to have much more to do with crash performance than anything else! The same tech guy swore that commercial leather cleaning chemicals would eat out the thread.
Mark
p.s. ask a leather manufacture what barbed wire does to your leathers while the cow is still wearing them!
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You mean if a rider comes to the line dressed as a cow that is not good enough ? LOL
The cussin and discussion of leathers and body protection has just begun.
Let us see how we do.
"Older should be wiser, but it doesn't always work that way."
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Motorcycle LSR Leathers
1 piece, all cow (2mm min.) everywhere. 1/4" brass eyelets (3 max. per side) may be installed in armpits and behind knees. All critical areas reinforced with padded kevlar, shins, knees, thighs, tailbone, spine, shoulders, shoulder blades, forearms and elbows. Critical area reinforcement can be integrated in the suit or worn under the suit as a seperate independent garment.
Simple, yet elegant.
Guy
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Are you guys listening ?
That was a good / positive suggestion with some detail that is lacking from what is written today.
It reflects common sense and experience that is sorely lacking.
It is not perfect but it is a thoughtful start that should get the cussin and discussion going.
If stretch panels are an absolute with you, there is a sewing technique that will allow it but without the inclusion of flammable materials outside and possibly exposed to flame.
You guys have it in you, you just have to deal with the wizards that are over you. :wink:
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Thanks muchly Guy ,thats exactly the sort of feed back Im after ,practical suggestions , I will fix up my bill for the pulsoids via Mr KT soon :-D
I have some info on a fire retardant for leather wipe/spray on liquid any one used this before ? ,keep them comming blokes
cheers
Gary
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Hey wait !
This thing doesn't play that far down under does it ? LOL
It is not the flame resistance properties of leather that are the real problem, it is the retention of heat and the transfer of heat from hot liquids that is the problem.
The person that suffered the burns has already spoken to that and offered a cheap solution in the form of carbon fibre as an undergarment that is available for about $150 US.
Do a search on leathers around here and follow that discussion from some subject matter experts and rule accordingly.
Follow the leader is good but I am not sure the current leaders should necessarily be followed.
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Did I understand correctly that someone is making carbon fiber shorts? To "protect" you? If they shatter, it will perforate you where it hurts the most with thousands of tiny needles. Maybe they are talking about a "codpiece" like the ballet guys use - they were all the rage 400 years ago. Look at Kevlar or something
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Carbon-x is the trade name an is available through Jeg's or Summit.
It is a complete , top to foot underwear that has been recommended by John M.
A search around here is your friend.
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A couple of years ago we went to one of the big motorcycle expositions -- and I found the booth for the company that makes "Draggin' Jeans" -- the jeans with kevlar inserts in the butt and knees. They also make (made?) a long-sleeved undershirt of kevlar, and I wear one of those under my leathers.
Anyway, I asked if they make long underwear pants of Kevlar. Nope. Will they make a pair for me? Nope. Will they make them for sale to the general public? Nope.
Dang -- I'd get some to weat under the leathers -- if someone would make 'em. We can't find a source to buy the kevlar fabric (nor the tools to work it) so we can't make our own. Since we're on this subject -- anyone got leads for us to follow?
I've got a set of carbon-fiber overalls -- a jump suit, maybe you'd call it -- and it's fine for working in the pits but is way too loose for going under the leathers. It's dark dark blue, too - was uncomfortably warm in the Bonneville and Maxton sunlight.
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[quote author=Seldom Seen Slim l We can't find a source to buy the kevlar fabric (nor the tools to work it) so we can't make our own. Since we're on this subject -- anyone got leads for us to follow?
I've got a bunch of kevlar cloth- {used to make soft tops on 34 & essex}can't member where it came from off hand but will post when I figure out- think came from fiberglass dvlmt but not sure-buddy might have sent from hoby place in twin cities- special scissors were supposed to be required but look like normal ones from an alfred hitchcok movie..russ
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just did a google search- fiber glast development corp. they got the stuff but don't member if the cheapest place to buy. if you are going to make underware I think it will require some sort of cloth stitched on both sides as it is kind of an anravling mess standing alone.. russ------ps--you probably arn't interested in epoxy-les you wanted to do a body cast- but buddy found a better epox than fiber glast sells- cans are out in paint shop & its dark cold - if anybody is interested I can post tmro-russ
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last time i tried to get my hands on some kevler i got shot down. it was a year or so ago but i was told it was being all bought up for the military.
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Russ, does the kevlar cloth come in a flamey pattern, or maybe someting with bright pink flamingoes on it? I won't use just anything, you know...
The Draggin' Jeans people said that not only was sourcing the fabric part of the problem -- that also we'd have a heck of a time making our own because of the need for the special scissors needed to work with it, and the need for kevlar thread to sew it together so the outfit wouldn't just disintegrate upon impact.
I wonder if I'm inventing a new business with extremely limited market potential? Whatever -- if you or anyone has some good information on whether I can make my own long underwear, keep letting me know. I like the concept of wearing something that'll help reduce the amount of skin graft I might need in the event of a get-off.
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What are the properties of KEVLAR that make it the preferred cloth material ?
If you were to incorporate it into the package, the leather material should be backed with it first before assembly into a suit.
The thread and seam design must be compatible with the package.
Have we forgotten Carbon-X ?
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The carbon-x doesn't have the abrasion resistnce according to my knowledge. The carbon is for flame resistance.
As for the kevlar -- it is abrasion resistant, and it is supply enough to be a fine undergarment. Perhaps it could be incorporated with traditionally-constructed leathers as an inner liner - and provide similar advantages to the undies -- but I'd have to investigate whether the kevlar could be retrofitted to my existing suit, and, if so, at a cost that's reasonably comparable to just putting on flamingo-decorated longjohns and then donning the leathers.
Also -- the kevlar shirt that I wear is woven in such a manner that it is quite comfortable to wear. I can move around in the leathers -- the undershirt doesn't get all sweaty and make me stick to the inside of the suit. And when I'm not yet wearing the leathers -- in line, for instance, and getting ready to suit up -- I can wear the kevlar shirt for appropriate modesty (stop laughing!) and the fabric does a fine job of wicking sweat away and keeping me cool. I was pleasantly surprised by this effect -- you'll see me wearing a long-sleeve faded yellow shirt while I'm in line -- now you know the story.
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Russ, does the kevlar cloth come in a flamey pattern, or maybe someting with bright pink flamingoes on it? I won't use just anything, you know... Stuff I have is bright yellow-don't know if it comes in any other color- yellow is all I have seen -the special scisors is kind of a joke- bought a pair-just long overgrown=no big deal. never crossed thread problem as never sewed any? maybe the bullet proof vest people are using it all up now?? for what you are doing maybe fiberglass E cloth would work better- will see if I can find cat from TWcities so can post dres. russ
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http://www.chapmaninnovations.com/index.php (Chapman Innovations)
is one source of info on CarbonX cloth. It is just a brand name and apparently has little or nothing to do with carbon fibre - luckily. The site mentions that Bell helmets now uses CarbonX cloth for helmet liners. Never heard of it before but looks good in their blurb. Jack strikes again. Notice no commas or apostrophes. I done good!
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IASCO--industrial arts supply co. 5724 west 36th street. minneapolis minnesota 55416-2494 --1-888-919-0899- from 04 cat. p,114 has e glass;kevlar49;carbon fiber cloth;etc. back then the 5oz kevlar 50" width was 29.95/yd and the 8.9 oz was 32.95/yd. we layered either e or s glass over kevlar on roofs as made it easier to get smooth finish. side note- am skining doors on essex w/ carbon but was told to overlay w/ kevlar as carbon isn't resistant to puncture. don't know if this info helps but these guys or fiber glast devlp. are the 2 places I got the stuff.russ
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Kevlar cloth inside only works when the leather is already gone.
When you get that far the heat from the friction will have already cooked you in place.
Molded Kevlar pads are a good anti friction material that is best used as a first contact at the points that are in rub the ground and spine impact protection.
Other forms of MC racing are different in that they are slower and the fallen rider wants to shed as much speed as possible before hitting the barriers.
LSR will benefit from less friction on the ground to reduce the heat and allow the rider more chance to stabilize the slide without the stick to the ground tumble that breaks parts.
While some burns through the material come from friction but the least considered is the thermal transfer from hot liquid that is not handled by the "ALL COW".
That is where you should be looking.
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With only 31 replies and over 1,000 views, I sense a problem that won't get suitable attention unless the rulers are flooded with a valid change that they can't deny.
A means has to be put into place to not only hear from more people, but a parallel abeyance file to track the progress.
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Motorcycle LSR Leathers
1 piece, all cow (2mm min.) everywhere. 1/4" brass eyelets (3 max. per side) may be installed in armpits and behind knees. All critical areas reinforced with padded kevlar, shins, knees, thighs, tailbone, spine, shoulders, shoulder blades, forearms and elbows. Critical area reinforcement can be integrated in the suit or worn under the suit as a seperate independent garment.
Simple, yet elegant.
Guy
Simple yet elegant but WRONG!!!!! :-o - Should read 2 piece with zipper. perforation allowed at riders descretion as is stretch material in joints - allowing off the shelf road racing leathers is both practical and safe - the superior comfort and ability to manage heat is a greater safety issue than over protection...... and I have the brand new - poorly engineered to SPEC leathers and then some....... I have said it before and will say it again - the current rules are causing greater risk from limiting mobility, and increasing discomgort including greater risk of suffering from overheating - it is taking money out of our pockets unnecassarily to conform to inappropriate rules..... IMHO.
KSP
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One "alternative" is to race the BUB Trials............there you can wear your Road Race Leathers (with the back hump).
If you race SCTA/BNI you have to go by their rules......like it or not..........right, Glen.
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BAK, don't put me on the spot, I just time them. The MC rules were created for the drinking class, makes it easier to understand them. The only two wheel stuff I understand is riding in the desert. :-D
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The add on back hump is a lame attempt at streamlining.
In the event of a fall it could concentrate the impact on one part of your body that can result in the greatest potential for injury.
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In my experience every major racing sanctioning body imposes acceptable age limits to critical safety items such as helmets, seat belts, window nets, the seat itself if made from carbon, driving suits, etc. . I would think that the age and condition of leathers, whether SCTA legal or not would be equally if not more important to the "all leather" rule. Unfortunately most leathers do not come with a date of manufacture so I see this as impossible to police. If we are truly trying to improve the safety of this system there needs to be a definitive, qualitative inspection standard for leathers, perforated ,Kevlar, or all leather.
I believe that if it were important to have all leather construction than organizations such as AMA, FIM, and the like would have implemented similar rules, these organizations see many more incidences in daily operation than the SCTA ever will. I am all for the safest possible approach however nobody has yet proven to me that all leather is safer, both from abrasion resistance ( Kevlar is more abrasion resistant) or from heat in the event of a fire ( Where Nomex is the clear winner) . We are trying to kill two birds with one stone and this is the inherent problem. If I were to write the rule it would look like this:
All motorcycles pilots must wear a safety suit that conform to the following:
Leather or Kevlar construction is mandatory, leather must be a minimum of 2mm thick, 1 or 2 piece suits are allowed, 2 piece suits must zip together a continuous 360 degrees around the riders waist. Stretch panels are allowed in non critical areas such as arm pits, back of the knee and inside the elbow. Perforations are allowed.
All safety suits must be of good construction and be in good condition with no frays, cuts, loose seams, visible damage. Worn suits must conform to the 2mm thickness rule regardless of wear. A suit manufactured within the past 7 years is recommended due to the deterioration of leather and stitching.
A full body nomex undergarment must be worn at all times, there are available for fewer than 200 dollars at any racing safety equipment manufacture.
Supplemental crash protection is recommended in the form of hard padding in the shoulders, elbows, and knees. Back protectors are strongly encouraged.
Helmets must be within the current Snell model (I think 95 or higher but may be wrong)
Aerodynamic "humps" on the riders back fall under the class and category of the motorcycle ridden ( they don?t do anything regardless, in most cases the air is going UP the riders back, they aren?t big enough to keep the airflow attached anyway)Jusy my opinion
This rules package will allow people to have freedom of choice in how they want to protect themselves and still keep some consistency in the safety standard. It will also reduce the costs of having to get a set of all leather construction leathers made (which I just had a 1300 dollar "all leather" set made by Bates). There will always be the people that don?t care about safety and because of their ignorance rules are implemented that effect the rest of us that work very hard , and spend a lot of money, making our machines safe, testing them at increasing speeds to determine stability, and buying the best safety equipment available. In the end a sanctioning body should not punish the many to protect the few.
On another note every major sanctioning body in the US now mandates some sort of head and neck restraint for car drivers, does SCTA have a similar rule, I just figured while we were talking safety that we should not limit the impositions to motorcycles. Let?s spread the joy and include the car guys too.
Just my opinion
Nathan
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wheelspin, check out the new car rules on the scta web site regarding head/neck restraints.
Glen
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Great, just great. More rules for our protection for crashes and injuries that haven't yet happened. And head and neck restraints. Jeez!!! What is the next suggestion? Hey! I've got an idea! Lets just ban motorcycles altogether. They're far too dangerous anyway. And there is no way we can legislsate enough rules to protect riders from every concievable situation. So lets just ban them all. When all this is done the rule book will come in twenty volumes and be sold door to door by former encyclopedia salesmen.
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Nortonest, the head and neck restraints are for the car guys, and yes it's for a reason, probably saved two people at last speedweek. The MC rules are in a different language and difficult to understand, You have to use Dolan's conversion dictionary and understand pig-latin :?
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There is a safe answer:
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/Nerf.jpg)
On the other hand, if you do have a better idea, the rules are wide open after the November 11 El Mirage race. Get yourself a rule change form and propose a better idea. The ideas are submitted to the clubs and voted on for the next year's rule book.
If we left it up to the racers we would still be using the speedo with the feet out the back. Safety overrules what the racers want. I've watched Gene Romero saw off a cast so he could go racing, and that wasn't the last time. For those of you proposing a change because your pocket book hurts, what research do you have to back it up? How many other racers do a get off at 250 on the salt? Are you up to speed on the injuries that have happened on the salt over the last 50 years? There may be a better answer than what SCTA has on the books, but just dumping on it because you had to spend money isn't the answer either.
The DRLA is going to have to find an answer also. Both organizations have a commitment to the participants to provide the safest protection for the rider.
Side note: I found a picture of Dolan and his latest rides!
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/BestFriend.jpg)
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/harleydavidsonsoftailrocker.jpg)
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/WoodMotorcycle.JPG)
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I am glad I was not the one that was pictured in the "Nerf Special", because that Nerd would have lost his head in the crash.
Last years MC rules were not submitted to the clubs for review and comment as were the car rule proposals.
It seems the biggest violators of the rules were the rulers.
When one of them was asked several questions about the content reasoning, and timing of the changes the universal answer at a club meeting was "I dunno."
Take some worthwhile time and go way back on landracing and read up on the various subjects related to the MC stuff and don't be surprised to see them on the test.
The bike COMMUNITY can change those things but it will require a united front that can't be denied. :wink:
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So what the heck is the answer here? Basicly have to have leathers custom made to conform with a set of rules that are different from any other form of bike racing?
This is RACING. In my humble opinion, the rider/driver knows that racing imposes certain risks, and if you want to be perfectly safe, DONT RACE. I think leathers that work in Road Racing work here.
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Yes, Roadracing leathers work fine.......but you can't wear them at a SCTA/BNI Speed Trial.........
those are the rules...........BUB Speed Trial, you CAN wear your roadracing leathers.....those are the rulesl.......
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You CAN wear your road race leathers as long as they are old enough to be all leather... :roll: :x
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Yes, Roadracing leathers work fine.......but you can't wear them at a SCTA/BNI Speed Trial.........
those are the rules...........BUB Speed Trial, you CAN wear your roadracing leathers.....those are the rulesl.......
Thats so crazy to me..... If I can wear the roadrace leathers that have little perf sections and stretch panels riding the SAME bike for the SAME record at the SAME salt flat for BUB and Speedweek, why is there a difference? Boggles the mind. :?
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It is not a question about why, it is more of a how high deal. :roll:
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I say, "SUPER DOOPER!" To all that. wow. As an aerodynamicist I can see advantages to certain things, but to me, the advantage of not having heatstroke, or not having all your major joints stuck in a particular position so you cant stear FARRRRR outweighs the "advantage" of solid leathers. IMO, there is NOOO suit out there that will keep a rider Perfectly safe at speed on the salt. Racing is inherantly dangerous and that is why we do what we do. The NERF guy has a very valid point. Dont be stupid with the rules. What is next, 6feet of protective crash absorb. junk around everything?
ARGGGG! I'm actually completely re-thinking doing LSR AT ALL now....
Racing has risks, people get hurt, people sometimes die. Thats our buisness. a couple people died in Indycars recently, but did they change everything? NO.
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LSR bikes have the best safety record in LSR and the all leather rulings have nothing to do with it.
It was a knee jerk reaction to a problem they have yet to understand.
As long as they consider the entrants to all be somewhere beneath them it will continue.
The report on here from a rider at Maxton over the weekend is a look into the past of the way SCTA was and not what it has deteriorated too. :-(
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This doesn?t make sense to me Scott. are you saying the all cow rule ought to be maintained because it cost you lots of money to comply - so all others need to pay similar amounts? So if a suit is made that is more abrasion resistant, has better flexibility, is more heat resistant and is cheaper than your custom fit leathers - they ought to be illegal because you already spent lots of money on your leathers?
Nobodys asking you to buy a new suit every six months. It?s just that people are interested in having alternatives that are safe and affordable. If the all leather rule is for safety - I?m all for it - but it seems to me the new suits with various safety devises built in or worn underneath are safer than the all cow set-up - and can be found for cheaper.
So from my point of view - I have no problem with you using your suit - for as long as you would like - but I would like the option of using some of the newer technologies and materials available!
Just my 2 cents worth
Carl 'can?t figure out this rules justification" johansson
and So what the heck is the answer here? Basicly have to have leathers custom made to conform with a set of rules that are different from any other form of bike racing?
Some interesting concepts in play here.
If, for some unexplained reason, we have to have
"All cow, All the Time" leathers for ONLY the SCTA events,
what is the ultimate cost?
If you, like me come in "Clydsdale," than a decent set of
leathers might run more than $1,500 from a custom maker.
If you want to be fast, you have to go fast.
If you want to go fast, you have to dress for success.
If you have properly fitting leathers, than there is considerably better aerodynamic benefit.
If these leathers are suitable no other place on earth,
well then, that's just the price of admission.
If the SCTA "backed up," and allowed leathers that the rest of the world was OK with,
that where would those of us with big bills for protective clothing be?
How would the car guys feel if they had to buy a new fire suit and helmet every six months?
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Scott often speaks with "Tongue in Cheek" that is often confused for a Southern Drawl.
"Some of the Ruler Wizards don't get the point and it is more of a 2X4 up the side of the head deal." :-(
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I have the solution..... American Gladiator is done with those massive steel cages, lets just bolt those to the bikes. :-D
I work with indy cars a lot, and I have to say, Hot liquids are probably more a porblem with that series than LSR by a LOOOONG way. Do they do anything special to prevent liquid burns? NO. Cloth Firesuit is deemed "A-OK". I say as long as we have a reasonabley safe suit we should be able to wear it. INCLUDING the off-the-shelf ones with perforation cooling and stretch panels.
Crap. This is verging on 5 pages of repeated stuff. The End.
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Decisions, decisions. How bad do you want to spend an extra $1000 for another set of leathers instead of putting it in the running gear for more SPEED? :? :?
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I have the solution..... American Gladiator is done with those massive steel cages, lets just bolt those to the bikes. :-D
I work with indy cars a lot, and I have to say, Hot liquids are probably more a porblem with that series than LSR by a LOOOONG way. Do they do anything special to prevent liquid burns? NO. Cloth Firesuit is deemed "A-OK". I say as long as we have a reasonabley safe suit we should be able to wear it. INCLUDING the off-the-shelf ones with perforation cooling and stretch panels.
Crap. This is verging on 5 pages of repeated stuff. The End.
Hot liquid will not penetrate tight woven Nomex like the leather that is the subject .
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OK. Nomex underwear top and bottom, socks, headsock, 2mm (not 1.1-1.7mm) all cow leathers without ventilation or stretch areas or fabric. Let's go ahead and add the Flak-Jacket like the Harley top fuel guys run as well. They're only $380 with freight.
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ok 4 goin' on 5 pages of baggin' on the SCTA and no real answer to the question... here's the real deal .... if a restaurant says shirt and shoes or no service that's there decision if they want to take your money... The SCTA being a club says abide by our rules or go race with someone else... your choice! I like the SCTA and thats where i choose to race. I think they have a long term commitment to make me safe and keep me racing for years to come. I have 4 or 5 sets of leathers and yes i had a special SCTA set made cuz that's where i want to race.
Kent
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The real answer is all too obvious and mentioned repeatedly.
It is not supported within the industry, other sanction bodies world wide, all of the riders with the most experience . and even the new LSR entries that have a lot of other racing experience.
Proper input from the riders , acted on responsibly , will keep it afloat without chasing them off as they seem to want to do. :x
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AMEN, Jack
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Five pages and 61+ replies and still nothing different being said. If are unable to make it what we want, then it is what it is!
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I remember a sign in a motorcycle shop that I always liked:
It said, "IF YOU HAVE A $20 HEAD, YOU SHOULD BUY A $20 HELMET"
:-D :-D
JGMagoo
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Wrong safety equipment is expensive at any price.
Ill advised decisions generate most of the potential for real danger and there you have it.
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I think you are missing the point ,Kent. We are complaining about the lack of research that went into the rule change,the lack of input from the folks affected(The racers), and the seeming disregard for the effects of the rule change.Oh,and the seeming lack of care when all our concerns were voiced,as you say,over and over again.Maybe that is because we feel that those concerns are being ignored.
And I am glad you have so many sets of leathers,but in my case, I did not roadrace before and only had my one set,and the set for my son,but suddenly I was faced with coming up with not one set but 2 so we could race.There was nothing wrong with my old set,they have better armor and protection than the set I got to meet the rules.This was money better spent on the bikes. And I remember the mad scramble other folks were forced into to get their leathers.
And then to see the haphazard way the rules were enforced--or not-- at the WOS was really aggravating.
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I think Jim gets it as many others do and others never will. :-(
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Carbon-x is the trade name an is available through Jeg's or Summit.
It is a complete , top to foot underwear that has been recommended by John M.
A search around here is your friend.
A new class requires new lessons and some even require extra effort.
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i have bought 3 pairs of leathers on e-bay all cow no prefs. for less than 100 dollars each- all 3 pair passed tech and had a button riveted on--one pair i didnt like the color and i sold i still have the other 2 pair and im thinking of buying some fire resistant underware--i had a friend who was burnt bad in a motorcycle accident trust me you dont want that to happen to you --if you cant decide what your skin is worth then someone else hopefully will do it for you just some thoughts willie buchta
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Willie sounds like a worthwhile student of the art. :wink: