Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Loose Goose-Terry#1 on February 04, 2007, 12:43:00 PM
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Since you drive a sidecar streamliner more like a car than a bike, would it be acceptable to use a ?butterfly? steering wheel and turn the front wheel? :? I am trying to determine if I should use a ?handlebar? type setup and push-pull direct linkage to the front wheel or if I can use the direct link type and ?turn? the steering wheel to turn the front wheel similar to the setup used on a Kart. Very simple and very strong. I realize that on a conventional sidecar rig ?handlebars? are required, but a streamliner is open to innovation.
Next question. Can I use foot controls for throttle, clutch, and brake or does the throttle and clutch have to be on the handlebars (assuming that I have to use the handlebars :| )? It appears to me as though it would be safer to use the feet to do some of the work.
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Yes, yes,no, Yes you can use a butterfly steering wheel. Yes you can use just about any steering you devise except no cable steering. Yes you can use foot controls. No the controls don't have to be on the "handlebars".
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nope!!!!! you "CAN NOT" use a steering wheel on a motorcycle classified vehicle (encluding a streamliner). you have to steer with handlebars and the controls dont have to be on the bars
kent
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The second word in the question was
"STREAMLINER" and the rest is history
that is not to be confused with "KNEE JERK"
that can obscure you vision.
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:-D Jack, does that mean I ?CAN? or ?CANNOT? use a butterfly steering wheel? :? Boy, I thought the designing was going to be the easy part, but every time I learn something, I end up with more questions. It would be a lot simpler if I lived somewhere where there were motorcycle streamliners that I could look at. I just saved all the pictures of Ack Attack so I could study them later. No use trying to re-invent the wheel. :lol: Might as well borrow some design from one that has already been there. :evil:
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Now that you are sitting up and for sure read it again, one of the longest passages in the MC rules addresses steering in streamliners and only mentions handlebars.
While butterflies and cables have both been tried by some very experienced builders, they fail to work well in use.
The rules are hopefully designed to be as simple as can be so the interpretation is limited.
Experiences that got them there would fill several books.
It should never hurt to ask because your new ideas may already have been tried with either success or failure.
The rules should evolve with those inputs but remain simple enough for Everybody to understand equally.
The car stuff gets pretty good . widespread, and prompt attention but the bikes are not as lucky.
TOUGH JOB !!!
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I tried a wheel on one of my bike liners in 03. Didnt work, guess it might have if I had never counterstered a bike before. any how didnt work, dont waist your time and the rules prohibit it.
kent
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Terry....like I told you "many Moons" ago....put it on paper and send it to SCTA/BNI, and hopefully get a anwer...................
Goog Luck..............................
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I mean GOODDDDDDD LUCK
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Terry....like I told you "many Moons" ago....put it on paper and send it to SCTA/BNI, and hopefully get a anwer...................
Goog Luck..............................
The answer is clearly printed in the rule book now.
Deviation from that without good cause will generate some of the problems that plague the MC program today.
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Seems to me if you omit the bottom horizontals from a butterfly wheel, and make it out of tubing, you're left with an "M" shaped thing which you might well call a handlebar. Difference in safety/function?
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A straight tubing that worked like a steering wheel will produce the same bad result as a butterfly or anything else that required a simular motion.
You will also notice the MC requirement for specified things be operated without removing the hands from he steering.
The range of motion,direction of operation, and level of concentration are quite different in a bike liner.
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A straight tubing that worked like a steering wheel will produce the same bad result as a butterfly or anything else that required a simular motion.
I wasn't suggesting it's a good idea, just that the rules (perhaps unfortunately) don't preclude it.The range of motion,direction of operation, and level of concentration are quite different in a bike liner.
Undoubtedly. The system some liners do use successfully, of two vertical levers pivoting forward and back, doesn't seem to meet the letter of the rules any more than a wheel-like system. It's great for entry/exit and visibility.
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............. The system some liners do use successfully, of two vertical levers pivoting forward and back, doesn't seem to meet the letter of the rules any more than a wheel-like system. It's great for entry/exit and visibility.
Are you talking about Denis's BUB liner or others?? I have a feeling his would not be legal at a SCTA meet. He runs under different rules and FIM probably doesn't care at all.
c ya,
Sum
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One of the last cable linkage setups was produced by Manning and it failed the test before it was submitted for competition.
He owns his event and is the final approval for those rules and procedures.
As such, those rules and procedures may not be adopted by other sanction bodies if they are found to not be suitable for their event.
A fold out of the way bar system is quite easy to make and allows easy exit from the driver position and access for medical help as required.
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Are you talking about Denis's BUB liner or others?? I have a feeling his would not be legal at a SCTA meet. He runs under different rules and FIM probably doesn't care at all.
Yeah, I was thinking about the BUB liner. Hadn't thought about him not running SCTA. Thanks.
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That's why the BUB poster says
"Run what you Brung"..................
it is a wonderfull thing...................
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"Those who chose to live by the sword can die with a shot."
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Ruling that cable steering for solo and/or sidecars does not work and is not safe is somewhat premature......Example: 2006
BUB Trials (remember Run what you Brung)
a outstanding piece of engineering.....a 125c.c. long chassis kneeler solo-bike with hub-centre using cable-steering with great success......I watched the bike run with great interest.....and it worked just fine. With modern tech. that is now on the market, I am sure that a company specializing in power transfer and cable tech. like Barnett
Tool and Eng. could make cables that would work and be safe at the same time.
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I guess you would have to ask BoB George and Denis Manning if they used the best materials with their failed attempts to start.
Then you have to ask yourself why and what would happen with lesser materials and methods ?
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I guess the best thing for you to do is run the BUB MEET. At SCTA you will probably be put back on the trailer. The rules set by SCTA are for everyone and they were all written for a reason, usually some kind of failure or worse a crash.
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linkage is easier and lighter to build. easier to design from the start then redesign. The Bob George liner I owned and raced originally had cables, Campos and Vesco couldnt drive it. Vesco switched it to linkage and it still didnt work. I tried and no way. I switched it to wheel and linkage. I worked in the shop but was horrible on the salt. With help from the Buckeye bullits generator and Jim Knapps welder we switched it back to h-bars on the salt and set a record. It still wasn't right so we cut it all back out and redid it a 3rd time. 3rd time was the charm. build your machine to pass the toughest rules then you can race all orginazitions. Dont limit yourself to one club. the biggest thing you need is seat time! the more clubs and meets you race the better.
kent
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I guess the best thing for you to do is run the BUB MEET. At SCTA you will probably be put back on the trailer. The rules set by SCTA are for everyone and they were all written for a reason, usually some kind of failure or worse a crash.
Glen is mostly a car guy but still pretty reasonable and for a lot of good reasons.
"Knowing the difference is all the difference in the world."
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:-D OK, I think I'll stay with the handlebars and push/pull solid linkage system. BUT, I think I'll make it convertable to the butterfly wheel. Remember, this is a SIDECAR :roll: You drive a sidecar and you don't use countersteer (unless you want to get the sidecar in the air) :wink:
Still, I am courious about the way the ack steering worked. Looks like they used a chain and sprockets to get the steering action they wanted. That would be a good way to increase the steering leverage and slow the steering down. 8-)
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Variable mounting points for a steering rod will have the same effect to change the steering ratio.
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:-D OK, I think I'll stay with the handlebars and push/pull solid linkage system. BUT, I think I'll make it convertable to the butterfly wheel. Remember, this is a SIDECAR :roll: You drive a sidecar and you don't use countersteer (unless you want to get the sidecar in the air) :wink:
Still, I am courious about the way the ack steering worked. Looks like they used a chain and sprockets to get the steering action they wanted. That would be a good way to increase the steering leverage and slow the steering down. 8-)
The chain and sprockets control the hydraulic steering dampener which Rocky operates with his right foot. Variable steering was controlled by a toggle switch which moves the pivot point using a Motion Systems actuator. We have removed the variable steering as we found it was not needed.
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"Look and you shall see.
Ask and you shall begin to know."
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The handlebar requirement must be to keep it a motorcycle. Two wheels and handlebars are all that separate a bike streamliner from a car.
Cable controls are non-rigid. If you stress any cable system it will flex. That's the last thing you want in a steering mechanism. What you want is rigidity. Not only in the steering pivots and the linkage, but in the frame and suspension. Anything that can flex means you are in for a wild ride.
Unless you enjoy tank slappers!
Oh! You do? Here's two examples.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YD6jruSIELA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YD6jruSIELA)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=A2svJf4-g4I (http://youtube.com/watch?v=A2svJf4-g4I)
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At least 2 of the failed attempts used a double cable system with 1 in tension on each side of the front wheel.
They used the best materials available and the preload all but eliminated the stretch/flex.
It was a failed attempt to eliminate bump steer.
The result was the friction prevented the caster in the setup from settling to a happy center and the operator was always attempting to catch up.
It was a lot like getting yourself out of a tank slapper, sometimes you would do well to take both hands and slap your face while the bike settles down.
Too much damper can do the same thing as Vesco taught Campos on the 2nd BOB George liner. :wink:
"Not everything you think you see is what you think it is."
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It was a lot like getting yourself out of a tank slapper, sometimes you would do well to take both hands and slap your face while the bike settles down.
Jack no doubt spent time with a verrrrry red face. 8-)
The absolute truth to the statement is that over control causes as many problems as the poor geometry did in the first place. Humans just don't react fast enough to catch up. By the time the input is made, the opposite is what is needed.
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Lucky me. I learned about tank slappers from some riding experts and never had one myself.
The red face part is right because I worried about those that smashed their white knuckles into the tank or fairing.
One guy was spit off at 2 events in a row and didn't understand why.
The second time he was hurt seriously enough that he retired, but in that case the bike continued without him as soon as it shed the top nut.
All of those are rules of Mother Nature that have been broken before but some still insist on learning the hard way.
"Handling problems are less understood than they are avoided."
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My cycle streamliner was originally designed with a two cable sytem of steering based around an early Vesco build. I never really felt confident with the cables and then the rules were changed to prohibit the cables due to no way to check for corrosion and other safetu concerns. That suited me fine and I developed an arm and link sytem that will allow easy access in and out of steering from laying down.
Still haven't tried it yet in the real world but my time is coming.
Rick
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:-D The front end geometry where the tie rod connects to the pitman arm and spendle will have to be centered at the pivot of the front "swing arm" to prevent "bump steer", right? :? I still want to keep this simple :| so:
1) Don't use cables to steer
2) Don't use variable steering
3) Don't use a steering wheel or buterfly wheel
4) Use solid steering linkage
5) use handlebars so it will remain a motorcycle
6) Use variable steering dampening
7) Eliminate bump steer through frontend/steering geometry design
Do I have it right so far? :?
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yep......
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It appears to me that "imagination" is soon replaced by "imitation" in motorcycle streamliner steering.
There is no good reason to try to improve on systems that have proven to be satisfactory at over 300 MPH.
Many streamliners have had more power than their handling could control.
If Kent's system works it's because he learned early on, it's better to copy than to crash, and he appears to be a slow learner.
No Kent, I don't want to get a Red hat in one of your rockets and I never did expect to have that offer either.
FREUD