Landracing Forum

Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: stayt`ie on January 24, 2007, 05:43:18 AM

Title: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: stayt`ie on January 24, 2007, 05:43:18 AM
"Shell Racing Fuel 100, (avgas), High Octane Petrol for high compression engines",,,, is it a fuel or is it gasoline????
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: dwarner on January 24, 2007, 08:16:12 AM
What does the test unit the DLRA uses say?

DW
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: firemanjim on January 24, 2007, 12:50:14 PM
Ronnie, don't know what your rulebook says, but here anything other than meet supplied gasoline is "fuel" whether its 87 octane unleaded or nitromethane.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: doug odom on January 24, 2007, 01:35:50 PM
I don't know if it's fuel or gas. But I do know it's $25 a gal. :x
Doug Odom in big ditch
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 24, 2007, 01:46:06 PM
Detroit right now has the lowest gas prices in the country, according to the radio -- $1.87.9 gallon.  Ours are $2.04.9 gallon.  C16 was $12 at World of Speed '06.  Diesel up here is $2.48.9/gallon.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: dwarner on January 24, 2007, 03:09:27 PM
Jon,

You used C16? I thought you had to use ERC, they were there werrn't they?

DW
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 24, 2007, 03:10:51 PM
Dang, Dan, you're quick!  At SpeedWeek we ran the C16 that Mike had tuned and dynoed the bike on back in the shop.  That's why we ran fuel class.  At WoS we used Rick's A8C.  That was $12/gallon.

There -- is that better?
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 24, 2007, 03:16:46 PM
To continue the story:

For what it's worth, Mike had tuned the bike on fresh-bought C16.  We took some with us and ran the bike on it. 

We didn't make any changes between SpeedWeek and World of Speed -- and, using ERC A8C (which is "supposedly" pretty close to C16 -- we ran a couple of mph faster.  (Yeah, I know, my record at WoS is slower -- but my return run was into that nasty headwind the last day of runs).
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: stayt`ie on January 24, 2007, 04:45:48 PM
the only test unit at gairdner that i am aware off is the breathilizer :-D,, our rule book is?appears to be wide open on this subject, it needs absloute clear direction given the many cocktails on the market :evil:, how you police it at bonneville would be the way to go,,, however i am told that anything with a "dielectric value" of less than 2.3 is classed as gasoline,, sooo what is the d`value of 100,????
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: poppy on January 24, 2007, 07:01:19 PM
I don't know aboout the price of gas in Detroit but I topped off a $1.759 in Burnsville, MN this afternoon.

Poppy
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: dwarner on January 24, 2007, 09:14:59 PM
We don't test gas at Bonneville as the entrant is required to use "event" gas and the use is controlled.

At El Mirage I take a base line sample of ERC A18 in the morning and test against that as the day goes on. We are getting a new test unit this year that has a definitive reading for each gas to be sampled. If the gas tested is not within the spec called by the test unit manufacturer then it is illegal. This unit is the same one used by the motorcycle side and I don't have any experience with it yet.

Maybe someone who has dealth with the motorcycle tech and gas can comment.

DW
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Harold Bettes on January 24, 2007, 11:03:20 PM
Dan,

Is the instrument used a dielectric constant device? I am assuming that it is and the DC given by the mfg of the fuel is the guideline that you (or someone) follows. IF the DC tester is used in some type fuel or another, is it then washed with cyclohexane or something like that?  :|

I was just wondering. There are some basic beauties in running other than gasoline.  :lol:

Regards to All,
HB2

Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: hawkwind on January 25, 2007, 04:35:48 AM
Quote from: stayt`ie on January 24, 2007, 05:43:18 AM
"Shell Racing Fuel 100, (avgas), High Octane Petrol for high compression engines",,,, is it a fuel or is it gasoline????

 Ronnie  for DLRA  purposes its a 'gas'  any unleaded or leaded petrol is a 'gas'  octane is irrelevant ,any petrol with oxygenates  added greater than 2.5%  is a 'Fuel' , but as you well know we do not test (yet)  we have no test equipment  (yet) we have no volunteers to test even if we did have a way to test , Im trying to entice a fuel supplier to make the trek out each year , but they are as scarce as hens teeth and are only concerned with making a profit ,which the DLRA would have to underwrite ( not going to happen) ,so untill we reach the dizzy heights of the SCTA tech , grin and bear it  :-P
Gary
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: stayt`ie on January 25, 2007, 05:08:56 AM
"its a gas man, thats cool bro" :-D, no seriously, thanks garry, i didn`t expect for you to clarify the ruling on this site,,, i have contacted the manufactures about the d`value, and got a blank "huh" in reply,,, so thats why i asked the question on this site, i thought with the racing population in the states that somewon with chemical knowledge about "go juice" could answer my question :roll:,, i have always taken great pride in the fact that all the records i have set have been done 100% within the rules, and this shell 100 stuff had been worring me,,,
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: JackD on January 25, 2007, 05:22:06 AM
Cheating is easy.
Finding it is harder.
Living with yourself is not possible among friends.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: dwarner on January 25, 2007, 08:26:14 AM
The reason that the SCTA car impound is getting a new test unit is that VP is producing a gasoline product called U2 and U3. This "gas" passed our current test unit and failed miserably on the m/c test set.

A visual and nasal test of U2 convinced many that it is definatly not gasoline. VP does list their products as racing fuel, no difference between gasoline or fuel.

Harold,

I am unable to answer your questions because we have not received our unit yet to become familiar with it's use.

DW
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Harold Bettes on January 25, 2007, 06:02:14 PM
Dan,
Thanks.

Seems to me that if something that is called gasoline or racing gas or fuel by the supplier might still pass the DC test, although the stuff might not pass the sniff test. :cry: 8-)

My old chemistry prof started a racing gas business a long time ago (H&H) and they even put oil of wintergreen in the base stock!  :-D He also did NHRA fuel check stuff for years and years. That even got me into the races from time to time. :lol:

The issue of "gasoline" is one that is very entertaining as today's pump gas is all over the map on additives and lack of quality. Using a known supplier is obviously a better solution.  :-)

Regards to All,
HB2
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: JackD on January 25, 2007, 06:51:04 PM
I used a lot of H+H gas over the years and it was a very good and predictable product.
The DC testers I used at 100s of MC Drag Races were supplied by him.
The hottest gas is the stuff that F-! uses.
They spin so fast that alky or nitro would never get lit in time.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Harold Bettes on January 25, 2007, 08:35:03 PM
Yeah, with the perfect solution (pun intended) for a "gasoline" fuel being triptane,  :-D F-1 folks can afford the $5,000 per drum  :-o ,IF that is what they chose to do. Real octane is 125+ and the stuff simply will not even come close to detonating. :roll: Flame speed is supercritical at 15K - 17K RPM!  :|

Regards to All,
HB2
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: 1212FBGS on January 25, 2007, 11:26:31 PM
thats only a hun per gal.... wher can i get some? got a new fangled motor what will spin to 17
kr
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: JackD on January 25, 2007, 11:44:10 PM
There are lots of obsolete F-1 car motors around since they changed their formula.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: hawkwind on January 26, 2007, 02:39:23 AM
(2,2,3 -trimethylbutane) also known as triptane an iso alkane,according to the American petroleum institute ,research project 45 rated triptane 
MON = 112
RON = 112 
the society of automotive engineers have published the following for triptane
MON = 101
RON = 112 
R+M/ 2 = 106.5
meta xylene ,toluene & benzene  all have octane ratings higher than triptane , I believe the supernatral powers given to triptane origionated during WW 2
Gary
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 26, 2007, 03:57:18 PM
Quote from: stayt`ie on January 25, 2007, 05:08:56 AM
"its a gas man, thats cool bro"  i have always taken great pride in the fact that all the records i have set have been done 100% within the rules, and this shell 100 stuff had been worring me,,,

straight up! See ya at the lake Ronnie.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on January 26, 2007, 05:30:42 PM
Since Dan and I are in cahoots with this, I'll chime in here. Off the internet it's easy to get all the information of each racing gas by manufacturer. A competitor at El Mirage showing up in impounds will need to tell us what they are using. When a sample is drawn the first thing will be color; we will move from there to the numbers need to match...

I would not advise anyone from now on to mix different racing brands or grades. If the info is thrown off it's a real probability that the record may not stand. It will be a learning curve but not much of one since the information is available to every one especially on the net and from all the "gasoline" suppliers. The M/C guys have been doing this anyway. Like Dan says it's a moot point at Bonneville.

I have spoken to Rick Gold at ERC and he can ship any of his grades of fuel/gasoline to you. I'm going to use it to tune with since it's what we will be using at B'ville anyway. Good Luck
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Harold Bettes on January 29, 2007, 12:03:11 AM
Mixing and matching fuel blends (gasoline) play havoc on the DC test and you are quite wise and fair to warn competitors before the scheduled event(s) that a new process is in effect. :wink:

To Hawkwind: Note that the method that is used today for octane ratings was not in effect in WWII. Remember the rating of 115/145 for aviation fuel? I do think that triptane is still the queen of all gasolines. The king of fuels of course is nitromethane! :-o :-D

Toluene burns very greasy. Not good for BBQs! :lol:

I will dig around in my files and find some decent information to share on the hydro carbons including some interesting stuff on 1,4 dioxane :roll: which is a problem that was here in the US a few years back in some of the professional gas burning drag racing categories. :-o :| Its that covalent bond thing  :cry::evil:

Regards to All,
HB2
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on January 29, 2007, 08:36:53 PM
The lesson to all of the race organizations is that it is much easier to supply the fuel and control the situation then try and bring a chemistry lab to analyze all the combinations.
Harold, I ran oil of wintergreen. :-o I'm not giving on the performance gains, but if nothing else it smells great, and I don't mean the oil of wintergreen smell.
If detonation is your only problem:
Btu/lbAFResch Motor
1 atmRatio
CH4Methane23,65017.2120120
C7H8Toluene (methyl benzene)18,24513.5120109
C8H10Xylene-m (1,3-dimethyl benzene)18,434
13.7118115
C2H6Ethane22,169
16.111599
C10H22Isodecane (2,2,4-tetramethyl hexane)20,460
15.111392
C3H8Propane21,484
15.711297
C7H16Triptane20,614
15.2112101
C8H10Ethyl Benzene18,487
13.711198
C6H121,1,2-trimethyl cyclopropane 14.811188
C2H60Ethanol12,780
910789
CH40Methanol9,770
6.410692
Good luck putting Methane in the tank. Bring a cow.
But detonation isn't your only problem. If you are looking for a land speed record you are looking for the biggest bang. Notice that Triptane gets you 20,614 btu's, Methane 23,650, Methanol 9,770. Nitromethane isn't on the list because it doesn't have an octane rating due to it's combustion properties. It gets you 5,160 btu's
The trick here isn't btu's per pound of fuel, it's btu's per pound of air, and that's where the air/fuel ratio makes the real horsepower. Internal combustion engines are air limited.
Btu/lbAFResch Motor
1 atmRatio btu/lb air
CH3NO2Nitromethane5,1601.7 3035
C2H5NO2Nitroethane7,7904.1 1900
CH40Methanol9,7706.4106921527
C2H60Ethanol12,7809107891420
C3H6Propene (propylene)20,94314.8102851415
C6H101,5-hexadiene20,17014.371381410
C5H8Isoprene (2-methyl-1,3-butadiene)19,99814.299811408
C4H8Butene-120,72714.899801400
C4H10OButanol15,50011.1 1396
C5H10Pentene-120,59014.891771391
C5H8Cyclopentene19,67214.293701385
C6H12Hexene-120,49514.876631385
C3H8OPropanol14,50010.5 1381
Gasoline averages about 1359 btu's per pound of air. Triptane 1356. As well as knowing the detonation gains, the heat gain is where you want to go.
Methanol gets you about 22% more bang and runs cooler. Never could understand setting a fuel record with gas.
I do understand running Methanol. Nitromethane gets you 123% more bang, but you can see why the molten trophy deparment gets big in a hurry.
Properties of hydrocarbons:
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~slpost/CLASS/hcprop.html (http://www.me.mtu.edu/~slpost/CLASS/hcprop.html)
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Harold Bettes on January 29, 2007, 11:40:39 PM
Great post! :-D It is always worthwhile to reference Obert. :-)

Your point on the heat energy contained at target A/F ratios is spot on and running rich for the 90sec or so that one is on the gas at Bonneville is something that you guys that are experienced probably take for granted. When drag racers come to the salt, I assume that the first thing in tuning that is tried is to lean the mixture :?

I assume that the comment on the oil of wintergreen additive and the appreciation of the smell of the exhaust is also shared by others that had exhaust smell like shoe polish at one time or another, too.  :wink:

Thanks again for the extra effort with the post. 8-)

Regards to All,
HB2
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on January 30, 2007, 01:45:55 PM
I believe setting a fuel record on gasoline was just for convenience. Most of the guys were running gasoline because they understood it. If they went faster than the gas record and the fuel record was open or lower because it was an old record they just went in and got it. Nitro scares people and until you run it that seems to stay. There is also an expense some don't want.  Running 50% has an expense, from the little experience I've had a Mag is a must the higher the amperage the better. Oil changes become very frequent where a gasoline engine could last all season. Hey it all adds up.

Over the years nitrous has taken over many of the fuel classes because it "appears" easier. When someone willing to stick 90% nitro in the tank and knows how to make it live. The record falls.

In the long run the correct "stuff" will win out.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: promachine on January 30, 2007, 04:47:44 PM
Yea, J.D., who would be crazy enough to run over 90%?   :-o
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on January 30, 2007, 07:29:24 PM
Quote
Never could understand setting a fuel record with gas.
And I should have added, and nitrous. Anybody serious about an unblown fuel record has to be running nitrous oxide and Methanol/Nitromethane.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dynoroom on January 30, 2007, 08:55:29 PM
Well I guess all I can say is...





SORRY!

 :-D    :evil:
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on January 30, 2007, 11:58:37 PM
:

To Hawkwind: Note that the method that is used today for octane ratings was not in effect in WWII. Remember the rating of 115/145 for aviation fuel?

Toluene burns very greasy. Not good for BBQs! :

2 dif things here- toluene is an excellent charcol starter- just got to be careful not to be in hurry putting steak on to fast as it leaves a very distintive flavor ..    next --I ran a lot of 115/130 green av gas and that was long after ww11 -  the 130/145 was never avaible around here- {my tank takes 80/85}  Ratings on 115/130 must be real close  as customer always filled cell up @ airport and they didn't tell him when they switched to 100 lo lead- first heat {stock car} smashed 2  trws down to oil ring across from the plug{open chamber bbc}                             
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on January 31, 2007, 12:37:48 AM
 from the little experience I've had a Mag is a must
[/quote]I must be missing something here-? once chrysler came out w/ electronic ign I have run it on everything- including starter motor on d-8- one of my high comp bbc went to a minirod puller-he didn't have much weigh to play w/ {batt & keeping voltage up}so he got a carillo mag- called from state fair after first hook- soon as weight started to get him fire went out- had been running .024 gap on plugs - thought about it - told him to try gapping plugs to .016=presto away we go-later he tried to widen gap to .018 and pulled a miss under heavy load.and that seemed to be a nasty mag -must have had a gear set as it wasn't strt like vertex- would knock you down turning by hand.p/s he never had miss or ign problems w/ the chrysler  ign except if voltage got low..
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: hawkwind on January 31, 2007, 05:06:04 AM
personally Im a fan of toluene ,have used it as my enrichment fuel with a wet nitrous system , excellent results, but reading the plugs was a challenge  :-o,also tried toluene/ meta xylene  and toluene / acetone  with no problems as well
I have now switched over to methanol exclusively as this for me is the best all round (price, performance and results )
Gary
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on January 31, 2007, 10:19:45 AM
Russ. Sorry I didn't understand a word you said. All I know is when you get up to the % of nitro we were running a change of a 2 amp mag to over a 5 amp one made the difference of 20 mph. I've never ran naturally aspirated straight alcohol (what's the point). Every naturally aspirerated high nitro engine I've seen, runs a mag...On gasoline I continue to run some style of a battery ignition.

However, I have lead a very sheltered life.....J.D.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on January 31, 2007, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: jimmy six on January 31, 2007, 10:19:45 AM
Russ. Sorry I didn't understand a word you said.
mags suck - give lots of trouble& don't seem to have near the fire that electronic igh has- hence example of how little a gap a good mag will fire compared to chrysler eletronic on - same eng.. chrysler electronic would fire .024 gap plug while mag would only manage .016...russ.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: JackD on January 31, 2007, 10:20:41 PM
"Tradition unhampered by progress."
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: aswracing on January 31, 2007, 10:23:06 PM
For Harleys, there are electronic systems that are specifically made for nitro.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on January 31, 2007, 10:45:25 PM
Quote from: aswracing on January 31, 2007, 10:23:06 PM
For Harleys, there are electronic systems that are specifically made for nitro.
ya we used to run joe hunt mags on harleys & they sucked to- with a little effort any eng can be graced by the first & still as good as any chrysler system & its the cheapest also.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on January 31, 2007, 11:44:14 PM
It's apparent Russ has no use for a mag.   :|
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 01, 2007, 11:06:08 AM
90%+!!

A couple of years ago when the Fergusons were running the 3 port head on their liner motor, I asked Donnie how much nito percentage he was putting in the tank. His reply was "If this was the NHRA it wouldn't be legal!" At the time the max percentage in NHRA was 90%. I think that he ran 290+ and a new record also.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on February 01, 2007, 05:12:50 PM
Rex, I bet Russ will say that Fergs could do better with Chrysler lectronic. :-D...

About the time Fergs was running his GMC on 90% in his lakester with a 1 to 2 amp mag we were running the same. He borrowed a JOE HUNT 5 amp from Doug Robinson and I borrowed a 5 amp from Don Peirson who had bought the old Bruce Johnston oval tracker.  We both gained about 15 mph. Fontana had is Don Zig converted by JOE HUNT and so did the Fergs....Ours never failed and put my son and I in the 2 club. One of JOE HUNTS put Fontana in the 2 club last year with his 12 Port GMC in the Ferguson Liner. Don lll went over 300 in the liner on a load of fuel with one of their own 12 Ports. All of these use the 5 amp HUNT Mags along with all of Doug Robinsons 32 Coupe the only one one we know who can easily do it.. 
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 01, 2007, 08:07:29 PM
Quote from: Rex Schimmer on February 01, 2007, 11:06:08 AM
90%+!!
 At the time the max percentage in NHRA was 90%.
back in the good old days when 392's were king{ or stroker versions therof] gartlis was reported to be running 100% spiked w/ nitric acid - may have been true? - as one of the locals was w/ hoover @ pamona - sitting in trk on big end @ when big daddy came to line their tools were jumping around  on floor of trk- lot of people tipped the can higher that day & a lot of motors broke.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on February 01, 2007, 10:36:06 PM
One of the combustion products of nitromethane is nitric acid. The main reason for a gas mask. Adding it to the fuel isn't going to add power. Any alkalines in the fuel increase the risk of explosion, to nitric acid will make the fuel safer over the long run.
He could have been running picric acid, propylene oxide or hydrazine. All were in use at one time or another.
 
If the ground is shakin; and the flames are green, he must be using that Hydrazine
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: SPARKY on February 01, 2007, 11:04:05 PM
   :mrgreen:If the ground is shakin; and the flames are green, he must be using that Hydrazine :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Dean---is that the precursor of RAP
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 01, 2007, 11:59:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy six on February 01, 2007, 05:12:50 PM
Rex, I bet Russ will say that Fergs could do better with Chrysler lectronic. :-D... k 
I don't really care what anybody runs- I just share my experiance for what its worth-wish I could share my broken wrist & knots on back of my hand from mags -starter motor on cats kick hard!- revueing my old boniville tapes it would appeat that other people have mag problems besides me- which brings up another question--why do people run jerico transmissions when it would appear that they break quite often??????I was going to use GM -4 sp w/ granny lo as in trk pulling they seem to be indestruable.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dynoroom on February 02, 2007, 12:40:00 AM
Russ, I too have been involved in setting fuel records on gas... it's fun to mess with them.
but I've also set a few records with a Jerico transmission, guess it all depends on what your doing.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: SPARKY on February 02, 2007, 10:47:20 AM
why do people run jerico transmissions

Gear Ratios & Gear Splits-- to keep the eng where it can do something besides spinning the tires
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Sumner on February 02, 2007, 07:15:42 PM
Quote from: russ jensen on February 01, 2007, 11:59:42 PM
.................. which brings up another question--why do people run jerico transmissions when it would appear that they break quite often??????I was going to use GM -4 sp w/ granny lo as in trk pulling they seem to be indestruable.

I wasn't aware of the breakage.  Like Sparky said, besides the 1 to 1 gear the others can be picked from a very large array and 3rd can even be setup as an overdrive.  We are doing that with the G-Force Hooley just bought.

With that 4 sp GM 1st is probably worthless and 2nd might still be too low and you will be stuck with what ever gear ratios GM felt were good for 2nd and 3rd and of course 4th is going to be 1 to 1.  It will work, but if you are going for the best possible speed tuning the transmission to your needs can be almost as important as the motor.

If you can't change the gears then you might have to change the cam to get where you want to go.

c ya,

Sum
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 02, 2007, 07:29:32 PM
Quote from: Sumner on February 02, 2007, 07:15:42 PM
Quote from: russ jensen on February 01, 2007, 11:59:42 PM
.................. which brings up another question--why do people run jerico transmissions when it would appear that they break quite often??????I was going to use GM -4 sp w/ granny lo as in trk pulling they seem to be indestruable.

I wasn't aware of the breakage.

If you can't change the gears then you might have to change the cam to get where you want to go.
as far as breakage- I'm just going by whats on the bville tape I have--------
haven't got a cam to change- change cranks relation to change power band- I love torgue over a wide range so think gm will be ok- low is worthless-I know of somebody running a glide and they only have 2 gears and a wide spread at that, converter may cover some of that up- side note - I didn't think a glide could stand up to hemi but he told me  it has been.

Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 02, 2007, 07:34:30 PM

He could have been running picric acid,
[/quote]-----this has been bugging me all day- haven't used any for a while  but isn't that the white powder in the core of det cord???? burns @ 4 mi/sec-
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on February 02, 2007, 08:27:55 PM
Quote
this has been bugging me all day- haven't used any for a while  but isn't that the white powder in the core of det cord?
Detonation cord these days is an explosive called PETN that is in the range of 5 miles per second. Picric acid is sensitive to shock and friction in its dry form. It does mix with nitromethane. Wet picric acid is more stable. It is also a high explosive. For that matter so is nitromethane when it is contained. Like in a cylinder. (Low explosives burn with a subsonic flame front as in an internal combustion engine on gas. High exposives detonate from a shock wave detonation which is supersonic and propagates through shock compression.)
 
In the late 50's and 60's when I   they were experimenting with fuels, as soon as you learned the size of the bang mattered, things that made bigger bangs were immediately on the shopping list. There wasn't an Internet to find out an MSDS sheet on the chemical, you just got wind of a name and in the tank it went.
When the bang became boom better heads prevailed and outlawed them.
(http://competitionplus.com/2004_10_21/photos/hydrazine/hydrazine_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: hitz on February 02, 2007, 11:08:41 PM
Wow!

  That must have been where the term "blown engine came from!"

  Harv
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: John Nimphius on February 03, 2007, 12:21:47 AM
Can we be sure it started out as an engine?

John
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 03, 2007, 12:40:54 AM
sure hope this wasn't your motor- ya supose the crank was salvagble????
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: John Nimphius on February 03, 2007, 07:08:18 PM
Sum

I've heard you mention several times about using an OD ratio as the third gear in Hooley's trans.  Is that because the top gear must always be 1:1, or is there some other reason?  You will use the OD as the final drive gear, right?

John
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: jimmy six on February 03, 2007, 07:43:00 PM
I use a Tex Racing 4-sp. They have lot of outdated NASCAR Aluminum ones stored. They made mine with an overdrive. It's in the 3rd gear spot. 3/4 shifter arm is just upside down. With a chrat they sent me I was able to select my own gears. For me I went with a 1.60, 1.23, 1 & .96. For $75 a set I can get many OD combos .92, .90, .88, .86 etc. You can get the picture. The guys are easy to work with. The trans is hell for stout and you shift like you stole it. We do not use the clutch for the last shift. Do for the first 2 as to not spin out the car...Good Luck

PS: If you think only a couple of guys use these ....think again
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Sumner on February 03, 2007, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: John Nimphius on February 03, 2007, 07:08:18 PM
Sum

I've heard you mention several times about using an OD ratio as the third gear in Hooley's trans.  Is that because the top gear must always be 1:1, or is there some other reason?  You will use the OD as the final drive gear, right?

John

Yep just like J.D. said except ours are:

1st = 1.923,  2nd = 1.331, 3rd = 1.000 (the original 4th) and 4th = 0.931 (where the 3rd gear set normally resides).  Like he said they can setup the shifter so you have a normal H pattern.  You can also go with a ratchet type shifter, but we wanted to be able to go from any gear directly to neutral if needed.

JD with the G-force the highest 1st I could find was the 1.923 I'm surprised you could find the  1.6.

Before with the muncie's 2.2 1st we pushed the car to about 45 before it pulled away.  Now we will probably push 5 mph faster or so, but will adjust that as we go.  My truck can get the car up to 45-50 in a pretty short distance, so that works.

The motor wouldn't really pull but a little past 7000 last year even thought the HP peak is about 7400 with our present cam.  That was with 8 lbs. boost.  We hope with 14 lbs or so to pull the 7400, but the way it is geared now with the new transmission 7000 is 257 mph in 4th and 7500 is 256 mph in 3rd.  Our goal is a little over 250 this year, so depending on how the motor pulls at the higher boost we have too options to get there, less rpm in 4th or more rpm in 3rd.  We will only loose about 300-400 rpm on the 3-4 shift.

Like JD said there is about every gear ratio you could ever want in each gear to select from except for the one gear that has to be 1 to 1.  Their 5 speed works the same way with one gear 1 to 1 and most of the rest can be overdrives or underdrives.   I wanted a 5 speed at first, but after guidance from Tom can see it wouldn't do much for us.  A high 200-300 mph car could make better use of it.

c ya,

Sum

Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: John Burk on February 04, 2007, 01:59:07 AM
Dean's photo is what could happen if you tried getting away with an iron street hemi blocks in a top fueler . The main webs would start to crack after half a dozen runs . Most people used the ductile race blocks Chrysler made . I have a shot like that of a local fellow's top fueler who ran street hemi blocks . Sam was part of why Barret Jackson get's so much for hemi cars .
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: russ jensen on February 12, 2007, 11:50:53 PM
Quote from: Dean Los Angeles l
 
If the ground is shakin; and the flames are green, he must be using that Hydrazine
[/quote
-- why are the flames green?? hydrazine is just N & H - also why such a loud exh note?- local outfit is selling diesels to some calif outfit -set up to run on anhydrous amonia; which  one first glance doesn't appeat that much dif than hydrazne- its a gas like  LP instead of liguid -  only combustion agent is hydrogen= no CO2.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: JackD on February 15, 2007, 06:22:46 AM
Well the speed secret is out with at least NASCAR.
Preload the cheat juice in the system, use it all up, and the fuel checker will be left behind smiling.
A squirt from the line to the motor is no more valuable than a squirt on the foot if a person wants to cheat.  :wink:
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: beebe on February 22, 2007, 10:33:13 PM
So what exactly is provided as gasoline at Bonnville? Is it regular 91 octane pump gas?? 100 octane??
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on February 23, 2007, 08:27:02 AM
ERC shows up with a whole selection of flavors -- leaded, unleaded, alcohol, nitromethane.  Lots of octanes and other parameters.  You can visit www.ercracingfuels.com to see all they've got -- I don't have a list of the particular choices that Rick Gold takes to the Salt, but I assure you that he'll almost certainly have what you need.  And if you don't know what you need -- he can help you determine the answer to the question.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: Stan Back on February 23, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
And we think his advice is spot on.  He's talked us out of spending more money for a higher octane product, and four records later we think he sure knows his products and how they work.
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: beebe on February 23, 2007, 08:04:47 PM
I just called ERC and got the info I needed! Very helpful!
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: beebe on February 23, 2007, 08:12:39 PM
He recommended 110K, which is labeled as "racing gasoline" and it is indeed legal to use in the gas class?? I forgot to ask, and don't want to bug him again! :oops:
Title: Re: Fuel or Gasoline
Post by: aswracing on February 24, 2007, 09:07:31 AM
All of the gasolines he sells are legal in the gasoline class, including 110K. 110K is more or less the "standard" racing gas that works well in 80% of the race motors. He has others, though, more suitable for say nitrous and/or forced induction, that have higher octane, but in some cases lower heat content. I believe he also has unleaded race gas. Any of them can be run in a gas class.