Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials Rules Questions => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 15, 2006, 11:40:44 AM
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Boyoboy, am I getting a headache trying to figure into which FIM classes my bike might fall. I've even emailed Charles Hennekam at FIM - twice - for help, but what comes back makes my head hurt even more! I don't mean to offend the fellow -- and maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here -- but what the heck FIM class (and therefore, what's the record speed) would my bike be in?
I think I've found the classes for partial streamlined, but I sure can't determine where the "naked" bike stuff is.
If you know and want to help out you could just tell me: A/PS/F 1350 and A/F 1350 are my SCTA classes. If you want to make my head hurt a little more you could tell me how and where to find the answers for myself -- but Mr. Hennekam's already tried twice and I'm no further ahead than when I started.
Then there's the AMA set of rules/classes -- but that's another story. Let's work out FIM first, please. Thanks in advance.
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This is where I could get nasty but they will generate their own reward.
Their level of understanding their own rules matches their enforcement.
You might ask the 2 club for their FIM minimums because they will have the ability to figure out the class.
At this point I understand the 2 club does not recognize the AMA and their methods.
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Slim, get the FIM Rule Book in French.......
much easier to read.................( So Sorry...I really do feel bad now)
Hey, are you planning on racing a AMA/FIM
event????? I remember last year, or maybe the year before, you indicated your total
dislike anything AMA.........did you see the light.....(Now I feel double bad...sorry)
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My understanding from the French is they don't like it much either.
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Slim: The FIM 1350 partial streamlined record was set twice at BUB 2006 and currently stands at 205.724 MPH. (mile). There is no record for an unstreamlined bike. Separate records for the kilo and mile. Have at it and take those records back up North. 60 here in Philly today. FYI your bike fits into Category I Group A1 (Solo bike) Division B (Partial streamline) Type V (Normally aspirated) and as far as I know Nitrous is considered N/A. 6 mile course, gonna need a BIG bottle :roll:
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Larry, thank you very much. You've answered my question(s). 206 or so, hunh? Okay, that might be doable. As for the unfaired record -- hey, if there's an open record that needs a number put into it -- why not? One of the hassles I was having was in finding the non-faired record listing. I've come to the conclusionn, by the way, that you are correct -- nitrous bikes are still in the N/A category. Oh, and for the record, my bike carries a 10# bottle.
Now -- as for me electing to affiliate with the AMA so I could run for an FIM record, that's still a problem for me. I will consider seriously how much value I'd find in an FIM record before deciding to put up with those folks. I won't go into my personal feeling here, but yeah, I'd like to have the record -- another piece of wallpaper is always nice. Maybe I'd have Nancy run the bike with fairing and I'd go naked* -- be nice to have each of us have another record.
* No smarmy comments, you guys!
Thanks again, Larry.
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Wow ! WITH Jon W. & Debbie ( Demurf) going naked the lines at Maxton might be longer then speed week
Should draw a big crowd and the local KeyStone red neck Kops. I think Jon should cover up though. :roll:
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Is there a current, up-to-the-minute listing of FIM records, including those '06 ones, somewhere? I looked at the AMA/Bub's list and it seems to show only records through '05. Did I miss the FIM records somewhere? And where's the unfaired part of the FIM record listing? I've dug through theri stuff a few times and am not much ahead for the effort.
Then there's the question of FIM classes vs. AMA classes. Am I right in divining that AMA and FIM are different -- that there's no "modified" or "altered' differentiation in FIM?
Then there's the "no streamlining below a line between the axles" -- is that an FIM thing -- would my Charlie Toy body be a no-go?
Sure is easier to ask you folks than to figure out the rules written in a language that I don't understand (Jack, here's your chance to say something cute about FIM:__________________).
Glen, you've helped me discover a new piece of this forum -- I finished (I thought) this note and clicked "submit", and the machine told me in red letters that there was a new post I might wish to review before i sent mine. Cool, Jon. As for me riding naked and I'd best cover up -- how do you know, Glen? Did I use the porta-potty next to the timing trailer and you had a peep-hole cut into the roof or something like that?
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I was worried you would think it was a saddle horn and try to hang on to it during the ride, you could go for the side hack crapper class, that's a french thing ain't it. 8-)
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Evidence of the scatter brained tech skills at the BUB meet are numerous.
I will relay a story from another rather than from my list.
It seems the "no streamlining below the axel" rule was said to mean no belly pans
that are so typical on partially streamlined bikes.
Another AMA honcho said the full belly pan was required to contain broken parts in the event of an engine failure.
When the naked bikes were brought to his attention, he had no answer to even lie about.
Another situation that speaks volumes was the cotter pin vs safety wire joke.
A standard from the factory feature that includes a proper sized cotter pin through the place on the fastener that is designed for it was determined by the tech wizard to be unsafe and in violation of the rule.
The cotter pin was going to be required to be removed and in it's place was to go a safety wire of unspecified material and dimension.
That would have put the safety wire in shear.
While dumb is contagious, these were all actions that were completely independent of each other and was more of a genetic predisposition.
Commmon sence and enough yelling had the rider prevale.
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Slim: The FIM records set in Sept. are now on the BUB website. The FIM's own website was last updated in March 2005 so BUB '05 and who knows what else are not listed. The AMA, don't get me started. I am still mad from the 70's when I had to pay Earl Flanders $20. just to make a record run. However Sue Mason of the AMA couldn't have been nicer and more helpful getting the paperwork sorted for the entries and licenses. Ditto for Delvene of BUB. I was a no-show at the meet but the guys said inspection was straightforward. You should have no problems. Any other questions feel free to PM me or call 610-647-8428 Larry
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Slim......back off. You must learn that you can not take all of the advantages. In this case, just let NANCY ride naked. EVERYONE would appreciate you allowing her that opportunity. You get plenty of consessions and this time it's her turn.
Now, doesn't that make you feel a lot better?
We could take a pole of the audience and I am confident they would all agree with giving her that new freedom. Just make sure you don't do it during Speed Week. The hot seat and tank leave serious burns on usually unexposed skin. That I know first hand.
FREUD
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Freud: With all due respect, Nancy's leathers cover up most of the tattoos, so watching her ride the bike won't give you the pleasure of seeing her artwork. And as for riding the bike with or without the fairing -- well, it's pretty well established that she prefers the former to the latter. In '06 we each got three records -- her trio was with the body on the bike, mine was without.
Perhaps you should instead concentrate on your nefarious viewing plans for the Banquet next month. She did go to the tattoo shop again yesterday, and has an apointment for next week for some new work, too. Is there a dress code for the dinner? I've seen the dress she's bought for the event. . .
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Nancy's leathers cover up most of the tattoos, so watching her ride the bike won't give you the pleasure of seeing her artwork.
Nancy IS the artwork imo! :-D
BTW, thanks for the great pics and we love the new property :roll:... Happy New Year.
Todd
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Slim,
The FIM march to the beat of a different drummer. Although I got a FIM record in the 2,000cc class at BUB I am still waiting to hear if I also got the modified FIM record and it is now January 11th. Delvene and Sue are both very frustrated with the workings of the FIM but appreciate the fact that Charlie does come out to BUB. I understand their records have not been updated on the internet for a year or two. Apparently "road racing" (Bonneville) is at the bottom of their list of important events.
In regard to the rules, the SCTA or BUB rules work just fine. Charlie wasn't too picky with my bike. Unless you have an unusual bike I wouldn't worry about it. One big point, if you're over 50 you must have an EKG when you summit your paperwork. And make sure your paperwork gets into Sue by June at the latest.
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Welcome to the world of FIwhatever.
DW
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So I emailed a question or two to Delvene just yesterday and am hoping for a timely response. As for Sue -- Sue Who?
I'm thinking of going to Bub's this year -- but not used to the byzantine quagmire that greets me when I delve into the FIM site/pages/books/listings. Myabe it's not cornfusing to everyone -- but it sure is to me. I'm happy to report, though, that others in the fraternity are attempting to help me sort out the stuff.
Yup, I do know about registering early, and that I have to have some medical information submitted and to the satisfaction of others, and that I can expect to wait, wait, wait -- and probably, then, if I should be fortunate enough to qualify for one of those fancy wall certificates, to have it preceded by a note asking me to submit an additional few dollars to pay for them to print it up and send it to me (even though I've already had the pleasure of paying to register, to race, to buy tea and crumpets, etc).
If I figure it all out -- then all I have to do is bite the bullet and join a national organisation that holds no interest whatever for me -- but holds the key that'll unlock the door so I can play in the FIM's sandbox.
"Step through this hoop, jump over this line in the salt, bend over and smile -- then you can ask for permission to race."
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The event serves at the pleasure of the owner and if you don't give him any pleasure the result has been well documented.
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Hey Slim......nobody is asking or making you
race at the BUB Meet .......if you want that "fancy" piece of paper for your wall......you have to play by their rules.
By the way that is Sue Mason at AMA
headquarters....she is your connection to the FIM...(and that fancy piece of paper)
As a Life Charter Member of the AMA, I would like to welcom you to our "national
org".............See you in Sept. at Bonneville!!!!
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I'm not debating whether I have to play by the rules - I'm saying I'm having difficulties deciphering them, and I'm asking for assistance in that endeavor.
A for the AMA - my opinion stands unchanged - the group is right even, in my opinion and experience, with VD and overtime without pay. I'll hold my nose and pay the dues if that's what I must do - but that won't make the AMA any different from my point of view, other than they got away with it because they can.
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Oh Slim.....Oh Slim....You mean to say for that "Fancy piece of Paper" on your wall.................you will prostitute yourself......
Slim, don't forget to wire your drain plug on the bike and wire up the side-stand......
Yes, I was there the last time you raced a BUB event......that is when you found out,
that AMA/FIM rules are not SCTA/BNI rules.
Best of luck in your quest for a INTERNATIONAL WORLD RECORD..................
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No, I'm just saying that the AMA isn't my favorite club. I'll drop it at that, okay? By the way, I called Sue Mason and left a callback for her about a half-hour ago. I'm hoping that you're right -- that she can ease my cornfusion. Thanks for the name.
By the way, drain plugs are wired now per ECTA requirements. As I remember at Bub's #1, the AMA inspector told me that he was going to forgo the safety-wired drain lug requirement "today" because someone had challenged him on it "yesterday". Or maybe that was a different item. Also, neither bike has a side stand, so both of those points are moot.
Interesting thought -- that's been pointed out elsewhere -- that "international world record" of which you speak is available for a speed appreciably slower than a "national" record/"club" record. It's only a different-looking piece of wallpaper and a listing in a different book (assuming that book gets printed in a timely manner, which I hear isn't a safe assumption). Oh vanity, vanity -- what we won't do to avoid painting over the cracks in the plaster.
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Yes, a lot of the FIM Records are "soft"
this is mainly due to the fact that there is not much room on airport runways and/or
closed country roads to get full top
speed.........However, now that we have the BUB Speed Trials ..(FIM)........and room to run (Bonneville) the records will be going up!!!!!!
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Yes, but think of the $$ you will save not having to make a new chainguard. :-D
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The AMA wizard you encountered didn't understand the proper use of nor application of safety wire in the first place and chose to bail rather than suffer the humility to find out.
That pattern has been continued and the result has been the loss of credibility and leadership you might have expected.
The event serves at the pleasure of the owner and it shows.
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Now....Now....Jack, al this negative stuff you
are pointing out about the BUB Events, you are getting second hand......I only saw you at the BUB #1.....have not seen you at any of the last events.....Yes, there is room for improvement........but it is a learning process, and the event is getting much better each year.........And YES "the event does run at the pleasure of the owner"
What is wrong with that?????????. Without
BUB's effort we would not have a ALL M/C's
Speed Trial....Be nice Jack >>>>>>>>>>>>
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That was my nice and the pattern of failure continues as evidenced by multiple reports that represent the most to the least experience and they all seem to see it the same.
Just this past event was the belly pan, catch the parts laffer and 1 run a day with those entry numbers speaks volumes.
The investment cost per entry is not what is expected for an amateur event and only serves to present a false economy that would discourage others from making it work.
Just the added BLM fees for a commercial event would put the other events in jeopardy if they applied.
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If you want to have full use on the salt and get near to that FIM paperwork at the end, why not hold your private time event at the end of the Bub meet - holding on to the key AMA/FIM personnel for those extra days? (and keep the Johns there too!).
Worked for the Brits in '99, but we did lose 5 miles of salt to the 'water gods' and a number of days to the cross wind deamons.
Malcolm
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MK is a real stinker.
NO WAIT !
That is Me !!
MK is a real thinker and good to have around. :wink:
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I personally think BUB meet has advanced in the three years its been going. I know they know what needs to be improved on and they are taking measures to do it. There are alot of rookies at the event be, inspectors, staff or participants. The confusion of the "Rookie" participants doesn't help the situation at all.
They are doing fine, and Delvene is here is listen. If you don't go and see the improvements that have been made and/or you LINGER on something that happened in the past, go find somewhere else to complain...
They can't make the meet become 100% problem free right away. Its a new organization in the overall picture, sure their fearless leader has tons of experience, most on private time, won't mean the event will be instant success.. Having one event a year means they have one shot to make it 100% problem free per year in the perfect world. However its not a perfect world, and mistakes will be made...
It will continue to get better and continue to be a better meet.
I had some bitches and complaints the last few years, I shared them with the organizers and they took note, and are in process of solving those issues, and have communicated back to me to let me know how those issues will be resolved and what I thought about them. AS long as it gets better every year its a good thing...
And its the Pleasure of the Organizers Pocketbook that has made the event a GO... And at least he's doing it and not talking about it, and he has entries to show the support for the event... Increasing every year, so the popularity is going up, can that be bad???
So instead of some negative things how about some of the good, THE World Land Speed Record for motorcycles was set at BUB's, THEY Got a TV SHOW out of the deal, Brought three of the best motorcycle liners out at same time and all put on a good show, Plenty of Run Watcha Brung entries that give people a timing ticket on the Bonneville Salt Flats, plenty of records to be had to bring in todays standards to those records, a motorcycle only event (although Im partial to cars too, I like events that have both)... IM sure more to come.
Jon
Jon
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Well said, Jon
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I also forgot to add that one of the better things that has happened was the timing of the event. NO missed times. Not an issue. Rice brothers have been great for the event, their equipment and timing procedures have never been in question... And a improvement that was well made...
Jon
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I also forgot to add that one of the better things that has happened was the timing of the event. NO missed times. Not an issue. Rice brothers have been great for the event, their equipment and timing procedures have never been in question... And a improvement that was well made...
Jon
That is curious because their were never any missed times from the beginning.
All the confusion was generated by the lack of experience on the part of the AMA people that had never seen an LSR event before.
The result of the clocking was always done with lab certified equipment and years of experience watching over the process.
The pace of the event was subject to the abilities of the inexperienced.
You might ask Bob B. about how many false starts and delays he had to endure.
And perhaps Fritz Kott can speak of the failures that resulted from the inattention of the AMA clerk that had to verify all the entry information before every run with many calls to registration on radios that failed. :wink:
"Complex speculation is often cured by simply asking." (me again)
"Speculation
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Jack, is right the first BUB certainly had it's problems......I did not race the first BUB, but worked the short course starting line........part of the time the radios did not work....yes, we had our problems.....but each of the following years things got better......for 2007 there will be 2 courses, this should allow the smaller displacement bikes and the RWB to get more rides down the salt.
I expect with the BUB now in it's 4th year most of the problems have been resolved and the event should run without any major hick-ups
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Thats funny, I never said the anybody missed times, I just stated there were no missed times.
Second is we "Assume" the "Timer Then" and "Timer now" have equal equipment and capabilities, and no times were missed, the second event yeilded about three times as many runs as the first event.... Dont look now,, the event is getting bigger and better... Despite the negativity you give it, you make it sound like it's a flop, its growing and this year will be another increase in entries...
Jon
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I'll give bub a big thumbs up... he is the only one sticking his neck out, his nads on the line and his money where his mouth is... all you smart LSR guys out there know that as air speed doubles drag increases 4 times... and all you smart business guys know that as business doubles the pain in the ass factor increases 4 times.... so do ya think Dennis is any different? I've been asked alot this year by alot of people "should i race speed week or the Bub event?" Its a simple answer from me.... "F" it race em both! I'll give bub a big thumbs up!
kent