Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: landracing on December 02, 2006, 06:44:50 PM
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Well back in 2004 we had a very large debate over traction control
CLICK HERE FOR OLD THREAD.. Some wanted it allowed, but the rules FORBID it. In fact if you were caught using Traction Control it was a 3 YEAR SUSPENSION... The ruling was at the last SCTA meeting 9 vote for, 6 votes against to allow traction control for 2007.
For this coming year 2007 that paragraph has been deleted
"Page 21 For _9_ Against _6_
2.Q.1 TRACTION CONTROL:
Delete Paragraph 2.Q.1"
So now the question arises how many people will use the system. What types of system are available to use. The poll is up voting is started will you use it or not, or maybe in future. Must be logged in or registered to cast a vote.
Anybody have any systems in mind. Post them here would like to see... I personally will be working on one for the bike.
Jon
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I recall in the conversation over traction control the legacy was that it was considered an "exotic" device and didn't belong in land speed racing. As time passed and traction control became normal for passenger vehicles and computer controls and electronic logging devices of all kinds became normal on race cars, that it was beyond the ability of a volunteer organization to try and determine if you had one or not.
And the realization that lots already had it.
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Yes, traction control systems are now allowed across the board. I think that this issue is now at rest, let's move on.
DW
Sweet, Im glad it is. We are in it for speed. If it makes you go faster great. If it doesn't then it wont be used by many....
Im thinking traction control on bikes.. Mmm Great.. I got some innovation now.. Wether a person uses it or not, one less thing to have to worry about..
Jon
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It will be interesting to see the speeds at next years speed week with traction control. Like Jon said, if it makes you go faster I am all for it. Now that it is in the open it should be interesting indeed!
The any ignition rule is also good news for vintage engines. With proper spark control it will be interesting to see the true potential of these engines.
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I have worked with TC for many years in many different forms of racing. In my opinion, it's not going to make any significant difference in top speeds at Bonneville. IF you can get it to work, it will only allow you to accelerate quicker but your terminal velocity will remain unchanged.
Also, it's pretty much impossible to get any meaningful reduction in power on a car with a roots blower (due to blower explosions), a turbo (retarded timing causes massive overboosting), nitrous (inlet backfire on cut cylinders means BOOM!) or running on nitro (ignition cut cylinder won't relight). It's really only useful on N/A cars and in most cases the N/A cars are not the ones that would benefit from it.
It NOT the Silver Bullet than many people think it is. I have it on my car (disabled) and it will remain disabled in 2007 unless I run the car unblown at El Mirage and even then I would only turn it on to play with it and would not expect any earth shattering improvement.
Anyway, thats how I see it. Y.M.M.V.
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In the sedans with a dashboard I had a prominent arrow that could be easily seen by the driver and they were instructed to keep it always pointed where I told them.
That was "Fraction Control" and was never mentioned in the book.
In the roadsters with a different view I told them the line of sight objective was the same but the fresh egg between the foot and the loud pedal was just another "Fraction Control".
Bike riders tend to scare themslves before they get in real trouble.
Electronic operation is the stuff of Radio Shack Toys and their target market.
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Also, it's pretty much impossible to get any meaningful reduction in power on a car with a roots blower (due to blower explosions), a turbo (retarded timing causes massive overboosting), nitrous (inlet backfire on cut cylinders means BOOM!) or running on nitro (ignition cut cylinder won't relight). It's really only useful on N/A cars and in most cases the N/A cars are not the ones that would benefit from it.
This takes the narrow view that cutting the ignition is the only way to have traction control. The traction control on my street car applies the brake to any wheel that spins, and that would certainly work on a land speed car. Jack is right about the egg under the foot pedal, but that is really tough to do on a high horsepower vehicle, and more so if it gets on the power really quick. The video of Hooley's spin shows that it doesn't take much to spin the tires. We would all like to think that we can control the situation and don't need traction control, but one moment of miscalculation can screw up the whole run. And you don't get that many runs.
Electronic operation is the stuff of Radio Shack Toys and their target market.
I agree! The use of traction control in racing means the real drivers and the so-so drivers get equalized. Controlling the vehicle has always been what puts the great drivers up front. You don't see the great drivers in Formula One and Moto GP relying on that sissy stuff! Oh wait, they've got it too! The argument is over, the rule is made, now it's time to see if adding another tool to your tool bag will get you a faster record.
IF you can get it to work, it will only allow you to accelerate quicker but your terminal velocity will remain unchanged.
At Bonneville that may be true. At El Mirage your terminal velocity is dependent on your drag racing ability. It's a short run and traction control might make the difference between a record and nothing.
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IF you can get it to work, it will only allow you to accelerate quicker but your terminal velocity will remain unchanged.
El Mirage is just a big drag race, and as you state it will allow you to accelerate quicker, which in a 1.3 mile distance on dirt is extremely important.
I talked in length with a person who ran at El Mirage using T/C in a production class which was legal. They opened up to me and told me without T/C they could only run in the low 150's. With T/C on he was able to run 176. In this particular case it helped quite a bit.
Tom G.
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Also, it's pretty much impossible to get any meaningful reduction in power on a car with a roots blower (due to blower explosions)
This takes the narrow view that cutting the ignition is the only way to have traction control. The traction control on my street car applies the brake to any wheel that spins, and that would certainly work on a land speed car.
Dean, you are correct (sort of). I made some basic assumptions about how it would be applied in real world situations. Traction control can be achieved by cutting ignition to selected cylinders, cutting fuel to selected cylinders, retarding timing across the board, closing the throttle on DBW style vehicles and applying the brakes electronically to selected wheels.
Right off the bat, I threw out the auto-throttle since it's not commonly available in programmable performance versions. Also, I threw out the selective braking, also known as stability control, since a programmable aftermarket vesrion of that is not commonly available either.
Retarding the timing does not reduce power a meaningful amount unless you really, really, retard it. I have seen as much as 30 deg after TDC. BUT, once you do this you are really dancing with the devil. One slow burn and the gasses will still be expanding when the intake opens and you have a blower explosion. If you were to run this way for 5 seconds you have almost a 100% chance of an explosion.
Removing fuel from selected cylinders is not really possible since on a roots system I assumed that it is a wet blower (fuel added on top) so you cant turn off cylinder 5 (for example). Turning fuel on and off in this case would be a total disaster so lets just throw that one out.
So you are left with removing spark. When you do this you are introducing raw fuel to the exhaust stream where it will eventually ignite due to the other cylinders hot gas contribution (assuming you have a collector, not zoomies). Sooner or later you will get an exhaust ignition that coincides with an overlap in the valves and the flamefront will travel up the intake port to the blower. When this happens at full throttle your day is over.
On a roots style blower, the only traction control methods that can reliably work are the autothrottle and selective braking methods, of which both are not commonly available in the performance aftermarket.
Regards,
John
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I agree! The use of traction control in racing means the real drivers and the so-so drivers get equalized.
Is that any worse then adding the Classic catagory?
Jon
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I agree! The use of traction control in racing means the real drivers and the so-so drivers get equalized.
Is that any worse then adding the Classic catagory?
Jon
I guess that depend on if you are a good driver or a so so driver.
Tom G.
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Here is how one form of T/C works.
Tom G.
When you first hear the term "traction control," you might think it has something to do with traction and control. "Duh," you're saying; "isn't that a little obvious?" Well, maybe, maybe not. The word traction refers, in general, to your car's ability to maintain adhesive friction between the vehicle (specifically, your tires) and the pavement. And yet there are different kinds of traction. For instance, there's one kind of traction when we brake, another when we accelerate, and still another when we turn. Which kind of traction are we referring to here?
Traction control deals specifically with lateral (front-to-back) loss of friction during acceleration. In other words, when your car accelerates from a dead stop, or speeds up while passing another vehicle, traction control works to ensure maximum contact between the road surface and your tires, even under less-than-ideal road conditions. For example, a wet or icy road surface will significantly reduce the friction (traction) between your tires and the pavement. And since your tires are the only part of your car that actually touches the ground, any resulting loss of friction can have serious consequences.
Traction control is part of a series of three braking technology developments that began appearing in vehicles in the mid-eighties. (Note: Many German vehicle manufacturers call traction control by its original German name: ASR traction control. ASR stands for "Acceleration Slip Regulation." It's the same technology we're talking about here, but with a fancier name that most Americans have never heard of.) In chronological order, these developments are: anti-lock brakes, aka ABS (1978), traction control (1985), and stability control (1995). All three technologies come from the laboratories of Robert Bosch Company in Germany, and all address the issue of improving contact (traction) between your car's tires and the road.
Traction control works at the opposite end of the scale from ABS ? dealing with acceleration rather than deceleration. Still, since many of the same principles apply to both systems, it might be best to visualize it as sort of ABS in reverse. ABS works by sensing slippage at the wheels during braking, and continually adjusting braking pressure to ensure maximum contact between the tires and the road. You can actually hear the system working (a grinding sound) and feel it (the pedal pulsing).
As we mentioned above, ABS and traction control operate similarly. In fact, the ABS control unit is the basic "building block" for traction control and stability control. By adding modules and sensors, the system can be expanded to include these newer technologies.
In the case of traction control, the basic ABS system ? as well as other components in the vehicle ? requires some modification. To begin with, the old-style accelerator cable is typically replaced by an electronic drive-by-wire connection (although some older systems still use a mechanical accelerator cable), meaning the mechanical hook-up between the accelerator pedal and the throttle ceases to exist. Instead, a sensor converts the position of the accelerator pedal into an electrical signal, which the control unit (similar to the one used in ABS) uses to generate a control voltage. The standard ABS hydraulic modulator is also expanded to include a traction control component.
All these parts work together to activate the traction control system.
Let's say you're at a stoplight on wet pavement. The light turns green and you press too firmly on the accelerator pedal. There is slick asphalt under your tires and the wheels begin to spin. The traction control system instantaneously kicks in, sensing that the wheels have begun to slip. Within a fraction of a second, this data is fed back to the control unit, which adjusts throttle input and applies braking force to slow the wheels (some older systems also retarded engine spark). The wheels are thus prevented from spinning and the car maintains maximum traction.
It's really that simple. Again, think of it as ABS in reverse.
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Remove all requirements for driver/rider safety devices and traction control will become real important.
If you get in over your head and you are lucky, you might be thrown clear.
That was the philosphy of the pre WW2 racer.
Could they have been wrong ?
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I guess that depend on if you are a good driver or a so so driver.
Tom G.
Well, My wife says I'm only so-so so I better get the manual out and figure out how to activate my TC! :-D
John
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I'm wondering if the rule change will allow the MSD Ignition Kit for the Ecotec engine to be used as it was banned as a type of traction control. :-D
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I will be fun to watch the first roadster running about 250 on some rough salt with one of the rear brakes trying to be applied. :-D It will be better after the 5th day when they have been exposed to the salt air.
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The way I see it, the two main benificiaries of traction control will be the high horsepower streamliners/lakesters, and the twin or large turbocharged cars. I believe the former need this feature if for no other reason than to save precious tires. On the turbo cars, it may provide a few less thrills when full boost kicks in, although with the newer computer management systems this may not be as big a deal. With the heavier coupe/sedan bodies, and or the lighter roadsters, I am not convinced that there will be much of a benefit. Most of us are already beyond trouble before we lose traction. :wink: :wink:
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The way I see it, the two main benificiaries of traction control will be the high horsepower streamliners/lakesters, and the twin or large turbocharged cars. I believe the former need this feature if for no other reason than to save precious tires. On the turbo cars, it may provide a few less thrills when full boost kicks in, although with the newer computer management systems this may not be as big a deal. With the heavier coupe/sedan bodies, and or the lighter roadsters, I am not convinced that there will be much of a benefit. Most of us are already beyond trouble before we lose traction. :wink: :wink:
Hey Bob,
I dont think it will be much help on the turbocharged cars.
The ignition retard method does not reduce the amount of energy in the exhaust stream, it actually increases it. This causes the turbo speed to increase dramatically and the boost to rise right along with it. This is because the exhaust is not expanding in the cylinder, it's doing it in the exhaust just upstream of the turbine.
Fuel cut is really messy as there is almost always a few cylinder events before/after the cut one that the combustion is tweaked and there is popping. This also causes the boost to spike up. It's very hard to tune when it's doing this and under/over correction by the system is the order of the day.
The ignition cut method is the worst of all on a turbo car since the raw fuel is sent into the exhaust stream where it ignites. This method in conjunction with the timing retard is actually used to build boost in drag cars. Exactly the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.
These principles are very clearly demonstrated when at full boost and WOT and you hit a soft rev limiter. The first thing you will see is a nasty boost spike. A soft rev limiter and traction control are typically implemented in a very similar matter.
The auto throttle system is "safe" in the sense that at least it achieves what you are trying to achieve but the boost level will fall off pretty fast so if you have a big turbo then it throws you into lag. An alternate type would put a throttle in front of the turbo allowing the turbo to spin in a vacuum and be ready for work at an instant. This was used by Cosworth and Honda with the indycars in the late 90's. However, it was not used as a TC system. It was only setup to help initial lag when the engine was "breathed" on a superspeedway or a full closed throttle on a road course. In both cases the energy in the exhaust stream was also removed. If it is not then the turbo will dramatically overspeed and when the compressor throttle (vanes or shutter valve) is opened then bad stuff happens!
The selective braking would again be a possibility but in practice I will most always discount it. There is NO commonly available, programmable system like this available. Even if it were, you need brakes comparable to the power you are trying to reduce. On a Taurus with an anemic 4 banger, thats easy. On a real race motor you are talking huge rotors and multi-pistion calipers. It's just not practical.
I see the TC systems finding a niche on medium to high horsepower normally aspirated cars running primarily at El Mirage. I am sure others will try it but I don't see them having much success but I wish them all the best.
A modern boost control system usually sets the target boost level based on your current vehicle speed, gear and/or RPM. It works very, very well (IMO). The best way to control your traction is to not lose it in the first place. That's the type system I use now and will continue to use.
Regards,
John
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I'm so glad they made traction control legal. It'll keep our competitors busy for a few years finding out it won't do them any good as we continue to set more records. :-o I sure did't need it in ANY turbo cars I've ever run engines in, be it coupe, GT, lakester, mod roadster, or even that dang 4 wheel drive roadster.
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Gents,
Traction control will eventually be a standard item for any high powered car. All one has to do is put a brake rotor on the pinon shaft. This scheme was used by
several people in the 80's at the drags like Austin Coil and Dale Armstrong. They just added another caliper to one of the brake rotors on the axle, (the
extra brake caliper is now illegal). This of course wasn't a true TC because the pnuematic caliper pressure was a timed release. For a true TC all one needs is front and rear wheel speed sensors, microprocessor. and pnuematic brake caliper and a pinion rotor. A real simple system in my estimation.
An easier scheme would be to retard the ignition to reduce power for tire spin.
One of the earler posts isn't accurate because you can and we do retard blowen nitro drag cars. All blowen nitro drag cars are retarded in the
the first second to kill shake. Retarding them 30 degrees is not uncommon
which is the maximum the MSD will allow. An enhancement would be to use the retard in conjunction with a centrifical clutch. Small rpm changes make big changes in plate load because the plate load changes by the square of the rpm change.
Regards,
POPS
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Retarding them 30 degrees is not uncommon
Pops, I wasn't saying retarding them 30 degrees total, I was saying retard them to 30 degrees ATDC. Do that for 5 seconds straight and things start going boom!
Otherwise, you are right on!
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Personally I wouldn't use any type of traction control to apply wheel brake.
Totally engine management systems. Alot of talk about MSD. There are better controllers around then MSD to take on task.
I will have a system on a bike. Detail later. And there are very informative people around who do it on a daily basis... Explore the options...
Im more excited about the fact its one less thing you CANT do. Gives some more "innovation" to the racer.
Like Dyno says, lets people mess around with it while he sets records. Fine, just maybe there will be a sleeper out there that will suprise him.... I know of one... Maybe it will fall on its face too... Well with a click of a button he can change it. Im excited.
Jon
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2 well known literary sound bites come to mind re traction controll
much ado about nothing and bah humbug ,IMHO it will work very well in slowing you down
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TC debate. Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints. Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more. They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at makeing something happen. Vets remembered what COULD happen. Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport. Just part of progress.
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TC debate. Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints. Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more. They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at making something happen. Vets remembered what COULD happen. Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport. Just part of progress.
Bob McCoy was a nationally ranked Sprint driver and he paid the double entry fee penalty for a whole season after the cage rule was implemented until it was mandatory.
Rodger Ward (RIP) was another I knew as a kid and he felt the same way.
While they were sorta "Tradition unhampered by progress".
They and many others felt the cages allowed any farmer with the money to race.
Time marches on and while they were certainly skilled gentleman drivers, those days were in the past.
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TC debate. Kinda reminds me of the going to full cages debate when they went to them on midgets and sprints. Drivers got instantly braver, probabley helped the young guns a little more. They could get in only worrying about getting the bell rung as opposed to serious sheet time or not making another race if they took too great a shot at makeing something happen. Vets remembered what COULD happen. Changed racing for sure, but in big picture things evened out with more remaining to enjoy and be able to remember the sport. Just part of progress.
Reminds me of when I raced bikes and went from an open face helmet to a closed helmet. My speeds went up and I felt more secure. Probably a false sense of security :wink:.
c ya,
Sum
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Gee can I just put a big wing on my fuel roadster now and call it t.c.?
I guess you can reset all the fuel roadster records at El Mirage back to
minimums now, cuz if anybody can hook up 2000 hp all the way out the
back door all the records will fall along with all the time and effort it took
to set them.The people that voted for T.C. just pissed all over some of
the great drivers that got down the track without it.
These cars are supposed to be hot rods, not computer controlled toys.
I am not happy :-(
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Ask Chauvin Emmons...................
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Gee can I just put a big wing on my fuel roadster now and call it t.c.?
I guess you can reset all the fuel roadster records at El Mirage back to
minimums now, cuz if anybody can hook up 2000 hp all the way out the
back door all the records will fall along with all the time and effort it took
to set them.The people that voted for T.C. just pissed all over some of
the great drivers that got down the track without it.
These cars are supposed to be hot rods, not computer controlled toys.
I am not happy :-(
Me too. :-(
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Gee, my 2 mottos seem to work better every day.
I think I am going to keep them. :wink:
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I'm undecided on vintage classes, but for UNLIMITED INNOVATION (SCTA rule book words for streamliners/lakesters, not mine), TC should have always been allowed.
Dave
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I've got traction control on my motorcycle, it's called my right wrist! :-D