Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Safety => Topic started by: stay`tee on September 16, 2020, 08:46:20 PM
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It has been over a month since the fatal motorcycle incident at Bonneville, what lessons can be learnt from this ?
Will an investigation be held with its findings published ??
Since the introduction of the Suzuki Hayabusa +200mph speeds have become commen place for sit-on motorcycles, indeed 300mph is now the "Goal Post"
Was this the first Sit-on motorcycle fatality on salt ??
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I too would like to know what caused the fatality at Speedweek. The report was that Ralph was going over 250 mph which could be a factor in causing fatal injuries. However a few riders (I am one) have gone down at speeds near that and survived. I want to know what caused the problem. Tire blew? Engine seized, locking the rear tire (as in my case)?
I have no idea if there is an investigation about the cause or not, but if there is, the results should be reported to the land racing community. Racing is a risk and we need as much information as we can get.
Don
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From the articles I've read I understood it to be a sudden gust of wind that upset the balance of the bike
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Thermals or if we were racing on dirt they are called --dust devils
over water-- waterspouts ..
I was jerked off course by one in my old lakester got to go visit mr diest and have my "SPIN" inspection
they are virtually impossible to see at B'ville.
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This incident happened right in front of me. I have no Idea what the actual cause was, I am not a cycle pilot, but I have been racing at the salt for a good amount of time. This is what I know. It was a breezy day crossing the course towards the freeway. One thing that I am aware of but maybe not all the drivers know is there is a big saddle in the mountain range which seems to funnel the wind. this is about where things started to happen for Ralph. I have been running in our roadster and have felt no wind at all and when I hit that saddle area it violently pushed the car to the right side of the course and I was forced to hold the wheel 90 deg left until the end of the saddle where it then steered the car hard to the left. Here is what I saw with Ralph. He was running strong, when he got to aforementioned saddle I could see the sunlight strobe light flickering off the paint, which indicates to me a tank slapper had started. Ralph stayed tucked for a second, I think I saw him lift his butt first for a second, then sat up for a sec, then did the nestea thing. He slid for about 30 yards then cartwheeled a few times. sorry if this is TMI It's hard for me to even type it but details help those who do this stupid shite. One thing that seemed odd to me is it seemed to me when he bailed the bike when down almost instantly. In previous MC crashes I've seen the bike stays upright for quite a while which is another reason I think maybe wind. This is my observation, I am not an investigator, I don't know motorcycles, I don't know what causes MC catastrophic failures. If anyone thinks these comments are inappropriate I have no issue with this post being removed.
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"There is a big saddle in the mountain range which seems to funnel the wind."
I'll second that report. The only trouble I ever had at Bonneville was very similar ? the Notch.
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in a quest for knowledge...... there is no such thing as TMI.
Maybe some specific details that could help us all.
wind speed at time of tank slapper?
wind direction relevant to course?
condition of the salt where crash occurred?
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I note that everyone suggests the wind has the potential to cause problems over this section of the track, did anyone else experience handling issues (spins etc) ??
Ralph was one of the most experienced riders, having made countless passes in excess of 230mph, indeed many passes at this event, and would have been fully aware of the wind/handling conditions thru that section of track,,
All eyewitness reports a tank slapper,, was it a tank slapper (wack,wack) or a wobble (weave), both are reported as the same thing, but in reality thay are two different problems ??
There is a interview at the event with Ralph which shows that he had a "larger" tail section on the 1000cc, I don't recall seeing this large tail section on any of his previous machines
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I note that everyone suggests the wind has the potential to cause problems over this section of the track, did anyone else experience handling issues (spins etc) ??
Ralph was one of the most experienced riders, having made countless passes in excess of 230mph, indeed many passes at this event, and would have been fully aware of the wind/handling conditions thru that section of track,,
All eyewitness reports a tank slapper,, was it a tank slapper (wack,wack) or a wobble (weave), both are reported as the same thing, but in reality thay are two different problems ??
There is a interview at the event with Ralph which shows that he had a "larger" tail section on the 1000cc, I don't recall seeing this large tail section on any of his previous machines
Excellent comments. I would like to address some of them. As I proclaimed I am fairly ignorant when it comes to motorcycles so when you say there is tank slappers and wobbles I must recant and say what I observed was probably more of a wobble. As you say Ralph is a super experienced rider and would account for the wind. I've made probably more than a hundred passes over 200 and that damn saddle still catches me by surprise because you don't feel any effect from the wind before you hit it. That being said I still have no idea what caused this or if the wind had anything to do with it. Just passing on what I observed from 1/8 of a mile away.
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Last day of the meet - last run - record return run - advised of 7 to 9mph wind w gusts - normally wouldn't run - ah, wha' the heck.
End of story.
Pilot's error.
R.I.P., Ralph.
Willi
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I have no concrete scientific evidence on the following, however I have witnessed several "full fairing bikes with the 180 degree tail" get hit by a crosswind with disastrous or near disastrous endings.
Typically, on a fairing bike, a crosswind will blow the rider away from the wind (pressure). If the wind comes from the left, then the bike goes right. But...with the full fairing and the big tail, the bottom of the bike gets pushed away from the pressure causing the bike to attempt to turn into the wind. If the wind comes from the left, the bottom of the bike slides to the right pushing the bike nose into the wind (to the left). The bottom of the fairing seems to be where the wind pressure "pools" and making the push greater at the bottom than the top. This is a very unnatural phenomenon for the rider, who typically doesn't correct the error and goes down.
This is the reason, I've not run a 180 degree tail.
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I no longer will makes a pass on the coarse that is closest to the mountain unless I go down to the "notch" slot or saddle whatever you want to call it my self and give my car a phone call " go no go" depending on the wind. When I drove that coarse I always drove the left side and just let the wind move me over without steering corrections (I didn't want to scrub any speed off) unless I was about to hit a mile marker which I have never done (do far knock on wood). some times it really got my attention. YMMV
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Interesting comment Ransom,, in 2018 at Gairdner with a 180 tail i rode into a 8mph cross wind at 200+, i had to fight the bike as it tried to turn into the wind, to correct i had to counter steer, in effect broardslide the bike,, and after reading your comments reminded me that it felt as tho the pressure was down on the lower half of the rear wheel,,
Dallas V you mention that Ralph appeared to stand before going down,, it has also been mentioned elsewhere on this site that he fourght the wobble for a period of time,, i would suggest that maybe he didnt stand, but was thrown ( being bucked off), these wobbles tend to try and highside a rider
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Usually I run early in the morning before the wind starts to blow from the mountain side. There are windsocks at intervals along the BMST course and I do not run if they are blown up more than 45 degrees by the wind. Sometimes I wait all day and do not run on that day if it is too windy. If blown to the side of the course, I hang my knee out from behind the fairing on the side in the direction I want to go. That pulls me back toward the middle of the course.
The wind through the notch can be a big issue. Especially after I have corrected for it and enterd the relatively calm air past the notch. That is what almost does me in. All leaned over to fight wind through the notch and suddenly there is no need to be lean't over.
A fellow needs to be really fussy about track and atmosphere conditions when riding a fully streamlined sit-on bike.
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I would think with the availably of Internet of things and low cost weather station it would not be hard to set up solar powered weather stations at each mile marker to give a better indication of wind speed across the course in real time.
And a bonus would be temp and humidity. ( I'm not a racer yet but I do know something about electronics)
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I can barely read the fricking big numbers at 200 in place of digesting a weather report.
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I would think you would check it before you make a run and there would be no display on the course. Probably some kind of app so the course officials and your crew and keep an eye on wind conditions before the run starts.
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jdo implied liability is just to great! The hard reality is what Willi said racer error that is the way it has to be are will will not be able to keep racing.
Your idea is a good one but it will have to be from a group outside of the SCTA . May be a group of racers start a weather consortium by subscription I would most like "buy in"
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Couple of yrs ago at BMST Bubs7 streamliner had weather stations at various sections of the track which they shared information from
sent it by group txt to those of us that expressed interest
Our big bike is limited to about 6mph wind depending on the wind direction ,If i find wind mid track over that the lean angle gets too much (it leans into the wind) and i usually let it drift off track and return , real problem starts from ~230 mph
I for one would very much like to see a display at the start with wind at the mile markers, but can see the same problems as DLRA wireless timing, that it needs special setup to work on salt .
Distance and that salt thing are the issues that need to be overcome
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Watching each of the 2020 MotoGP races has been a pleasure during lockdown. Those guys go over 200 mph and they sometimes crash. They have leathers with air bladders that inflate when they go down. They prevent a lot of injuries.
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I am amazed there aren't more pilot chutes to stop tumbling
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Almost every Moto GP event these days involves any number of crashes,,
Moto GP is a Professional Sport, riders are paid well and have a entourage to cater for their every need,,
Moto GP Teams have "Name" sponsers and a budget who bring the riders protection needs to the party,,
Shed based racers operate on a tight family budget,,
Helmets and Leathers, are a most important part of any riders kit, however in "Safety" thay are of secondary importance (a last resort),,
Motorcycle Safety begins with the "Motorcycle"
The only men who have exceeded 300mph on sit-on motorcycle's (basically Modern day Sportsbikes with modified bodywork) are no longer with us,,
Top Fuel Nitro dragbikes "evolved" from modified oem frames to the specialised machines of today,,
Its time to get the conversation started on "evolving" the next generation of "Safe" +230mph Motorcycles
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Ronnie looking from outside the square as a non competitor would small " emergency " chutes give the rider a chance to wash off some speed and maybe even stay on and ride it out . . Appreciate your input Paul
sorry didn't see the previous post .
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"Excellent" thought Paul, this is exactly the "outta box" thinking we need for the discussion,,
Streamliner rules require a tilt switch that deploys a chute, and we have all witnessed how effective thay are in saving both machine and pilot,,
A "small" chute activated by the rider (at thumbs reach), said chute attached to the motorcycle would aid in gaining stability, (much the same as trailing a rope out of the back of a boat),, also, should the bike go down a chute would help prevent it end for ending, and thus have the potential of beating up on the rider,,
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Watching each of the 2020 MotoGP races has been a pleasure during lockdown. Those guys go over 200 mph and they sometimes crash. They have leathers with air bladders that inflate when they go down. They prevent a lot of injuries.
These are readily available,
After i wrecked a set of leathers in Colorado i brought an airbag suit as a replacement
figured if i could reduce that first impact the bruising would not last as long
Also dont think it will work in every circumstance , it has an inertia switch in the inbuilt back protector for activation, so a highside flick will set it off but a lowside may not activate untill you hit the ground
and it only protects the upper body , no additional protection on the lower half
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On boats I think they work a lot like the lanyard kill switch is designed to--it activates on departure of but from seat in the boats case it stops drivers from go over the nose. I have seen that twice in the old days---I am sure the capsules have changed the boats a lot