Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: racergeo on August 16, 2020, 12:13:18 AM
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I had the occasion to contact WJ a few months ago concerning an engine I'm building. He is the guy to ask about anything all out BBC.Amazingly he very graciously answered all my questions and then some. I'll tell you one thing the man is opinionated but his considerable testing has led him to a lot of knowledge.
I then asked him about the rumor floating around the LR community that he was going to build a car for a LS record. He said he had entertained the idea but the "sponsorship" amount, $200,000 couldn't be justified. Yep, an E gas streamliner and Warren doesn't do things out of his own pocket. So you know he crunched the numbers to come up with that figure. I know you can build things on the cheap if you have all the time in the world to do it, but if you want to get it done you have to step up. If it was cheap there would be a lot more entrants at Speed Week
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Yeah, he rubs me the wrong way but I cannot deny his engine building savvy. Warren knows his stuff.
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I then asked him about the rumor floating around the LR community that he was going to build a car for a LS record. He said he had entertained the idea but the "sponsorship" amount, $200,000 couldn't be justified. Yep, an E gas streamliner and Warren doesn't do things out of his own pocket. So you know he crunched the numbers to come up with that figure.
The problem is that an SCTA record has no advertising value, and a FIA/FIM record has little advertising value.
At one time auto factories spent a lot of money on racing. Even LSR cars got money. Remember the long distance records set by Ford and GM? These had advertising value. A few SCTA records were set using factory money. When GM pulled the plug on the Ecotec sponsorships, over fifteen years ago, there has been no LSR interest from the big three. Nowadays the money goes to drag racing, NASCAR and Indycar.
I know you can build things on the cheap if you have all the time in the world to do it, but if you want to get it done you have to step up. If it was cheap there would be a lot more entrants at Speed Week
Building on the cheap usually results in slow hobbycars. With embarrassingly slow records. When someone with money comes along, the records jump big-time.
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"Nowadays the money goes to drag racing, NASCAR and Indycar."
And it looks like that faucet is being pinched closed to some ? like John Force.
NASCAR racers do have different decals on them. Hard to equate them to anything the manufacturers are trying to sell. And Indy Cars ? how long can that association with manufacturers last?
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How long has the "Blue Deuce" had sponsorship from Miller Brewing? 30 years? Now, Penske's #2 has a different sponsor every weekend. Sponsors see how motorsports are a waste of money for them. Even automotive manufacturers can't support the sports that use their products.
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Bob Lutz described race car sponsorship as a "Deductable perk for low level management"
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I only posted this in order to give you some insight into how some one like the "professor" would approach a BV build on a for profit basis. He expected to draw a wage during the build. Most of the well known racers of our era have approached racing as a business as well as a hobby. Richard Petty in NASCAR, Big Daddy in drag racing M/t and the Sommers Bros. In LSR and 100's of others owe there success to corporate backing.
I'm not suggesting you can't succeed with out sponsorship help, I'm just saying it's harder to make it your vocation. I didn't ask, but with a long history of GM's help Warren would have wanted to use the straight 6 that is used in many GM SUV's and trucks. There's a 24 valve head for them and some Comp Eliminator drag racers that can make big power with them. If Warren would had come to BV I think it would have brought some needed attention and perhaps some new blood, to a sport that is fast getting depleted
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I'm not so sure the sport is being depleted. You should have been here 40 years ago. One course for everybody. 65 entries at El Mirage. No paved courses. It is never going to be NASCAR, I hope. It is a fun thing to do as a hobby. You want to go pro, there are plenty of places to do that. Takes a lot of the fun out, though.
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"Nowadays the money goes to drag racing, NASCAR and Indycar."
And it looks like that faucet is being pinched closed to some ? like John Force.
The NHRA Winter Nationals at Pomona seems to be doing OK. But motorsports are a hard sell to youngsters who don't own cars. If you Uber everywhere "Win on Sunday Sell on Monday" is meaningless.
NASCAR racers do have different decals on them. Hard to equate them to anything the manufacturers are trying to sell. And Indy Cars ? how long can that association with manufacturers last?
NASCAR is slowly dying. Roger Penske bought Indycar from the Hulman and George families. The COVID19 pandemic has hurt Penskes first year. The real Indycar problem is that no one is watching their races on NBC Sports. So the question is how long will Penske support Indycar with his own money? The Uber generation could not care less.
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I'm not so sure the sport is being depleted. You should have been here 40 years ago. One course for everybody. 65 entries at El Mirage. No paved courses. It is never going to be NASCAR, I hope. It is a fun thing to do as a hobby. You want to go pro, there are plenty of places to do that. Takes a lot of the fun out, though.
Lots of very old people at Senior Citizens Timing Association meets. Where are the youngsters?
I started running SCTA in the late 1950s. My first Bonneville I doubt there were 100 entries. El Mirage in the early 1960s was done by 12 noon, leaving you time to do some drag racing Sunday afternoon.
It was a very expensive thing to do as a hobby. Looking back, it doesn't seem like I got my monies worth :-(
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So someone asked me one time,"do you regret spending so much money on racing?" me"I regret not spending more". It's fools like me that fuel all hobby's. You have thousands that are taken up with the adrenaline rush or the enjoyment of belonging to a community or the opportunity to learn something new.Then you have the entrepreneur who sees a business opportunity.
Any way you look at it, nothing is worse then being that person that says "I always wanted to build/own /drive/do something like that". Most of them technically lack just one thing---MOTIVATION
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Lots of very old people at Senior Citizens Timing Association meets. Where are the youngsters?
It was a very expensive thing to do as a hobby. Looking back, it doesn't seem like I got my monies worth :-(
Beef, If you had attended SpeedWeek 2020 you would have spotted the youngsters.... :clap
Didn't get your monies worth.... you must have been doing it wrong.....I guess that's why you are not involved any more except to gripe about rules and classes...
become part of the solution, not the problem :cheers:
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"The Uber generation could not care less."
I guess that means they care a lot.
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I noticed lots more of the younger generation this year than in the past few. Frank Silva Jr. ain't really "young", but he's made a big step in carrying on with the family name and story at the salt.
Then there was this old guy and his grandson in a pickup just coming off the salt as I was at Land's End. I think he was kinda showing off to the young lad as he shouted at me "Get out of the way! I don't see too good and can't drive very well!!". I laughed as I looked at who this duffer was - and saw the smiling face of George Poteet looking at me and laughing as Graham (the kid) watched me...
I had a kid come into the radio shack and (with his dad) ask me to autograph a guitar. Kids this, kids that --
Nope, I didn't see a shortage of potential racers. :cheers: :cheers:
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I guess it depends on what you consider "youngsters". I am 37, and consider myself a youngster, relatively speaking. I crew for a man in his mid 60's who is just getting started in LSR. A fellow Iowa team, Pigasus/RVS, is headed by a pair of men in their mid 40's, and I would consider them youngsters. Another Iowa team, My 3 Sons, are in there mid 40's racing with their Father. How about the Ark Mile? Lots of newbies there. Seems like there is plenty of 'young blood' to keep the sport alive for many generations...
:deal
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My granddaughter from Dallas and grandson from Denver have come to Bville on their own dime
the last 2 years and El Mirage 4 or 5 years ago. Andrew drove Morgan flew.
JL222
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This guy has been going since he was 11.
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I guess it depends on what you consider "youngsters".
:deal
I'm an 18 year old trapped in an 80 year old body. Mental age doesn't count :-(
From my POV a youngster is someone who is actually under 21. Therefore your kids may qualify, but you don't :-)
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Beef, If you had attended SpeedWeek 2020 you would have spotted the youngsters.... :clap
Didn't get your monies worth.... you must have been doing it wrong.....I guess that's why you are not involved any more except to gripe about rules and classes...
become part of the solution, not the problem :cheers:
I got enough right to set SCTA records at Riverside, El Mirage and Bonnevile. I'm not a half bad engine builder/tuner.
My money would have been better spent on drag racing. If I had been running NHRA Super Stock in 1962 instead of chasing SCTA records I'd have been better off. I had great reaction time?good enough to have driven for other people at the drags. Coulda, woulda, shoulda don't count for much, but it was possible for a touring match racer to make money in the 1960s.
The reason I gripe is that brakelight racing is popular. ET Racing can be a low budget sport with big pay-outs. It's relatively inexpensive because it relies on driver skill instead of technical skills. A good driver with a stock passenger car can win $2,500 in an afternoon. Maybe SCTA could attract some of these people with a few rule changes. Not many people can identify with Blown Fuel PU :wink: Or 90% of SCTA classes :-(
(https://i1.wp.com/dragchamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Sunday-pro-Winner-Bill-Taggart.png?w=803&ssl=1)
I spent many years at SCTA Board Meetings as my club rep. Doesn't that count as part of the solution? Are present day SCTA racers are trying to cancel former SCTA racers? aktion086
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Are present day SCTA racers are trying to cancel former SCTA racers? aktion086
What does that mean? As a BNI racer I am not involved with the politics of the SCTA, or the rules that are made to give advantage or disadvantage to other racers... we race in Special Construction where the rules are basically all safety related....
except wheels in or wheels out :cheers:
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WJ is obviously in a different class of racer than me for sure and many others here. His business was racing it?s how he made his money. I have know idea what his retirement is but he did not have a 8-4 job. He received $$$ for using products in his business because it was good for the manufacturers and won money and championships by winning. There were no -free- engines coming out of his shop for sure.
LSR is not a good venue for this.
I?ve received ?good? deals on products and ran very few decals. None in the last 40 years.
Yes at the top (read streamliners), I am sure there are offers because the supplier can show in their periodicals who use their products. That?s great. I read and see many in lower classes with sponsors decals. I read about them and usually its because they are in a fabrication or engine business that spend a lot of $$$ over the years with them and the manufacturers now -help them out- in their LSR endeavors. More power to them.
My free sponsorship came my company?s nut and bolt bins I could get it in my lunch pail. lol8.
Most of our best and fastest guys do it for the love of it or feel they can complete at a level they are happy with including their pocketbooks. I ran only when the overtime was good and bought better parts when my children left to be on their own.
Funny but 2 things come up when you talk about either the salt or racing on dirt. If someone finds out you race on the salt it?s only what does your streamliner look like and in dirt, do you run a winged sprinter or open sprinter. It isall the average guy knows.
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In my book Warren get kudos for what started out as a hobby, and he turned it into hobby/occupation. In order to succeed at the highest level (6 NHRA championships) he regularly worked 16 hr. days. Many of us can identify with that as we had to work longer and smarter in order to support our hobbies.
As far as drag racing goes, I was exposed to it at about 10 years old. My dad raced at our locale airport track. I was temporarily distracted by the go kart craze of the late 50's but by the time I could drive I was a street racer and then drag racer.
I have often stated that I wish I had discovered Bonneville before I ever got so heavily invested in drag racing. As for the driving experience nothing beats go karting (I only stopped racing when I was 70 and then only because of back pain. :-() As for drag racing 60 ft. in .927 seconds and 200mph in a 1/8th mile will give you a thrill. But for me Bonneville holds the greatest challenge. The huge amount of classes is a put off at some level, but opens the door to to such a variety of imaginative builds that makes BV totally unique.
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On dirt for me it was Bombers, Hobby Stocks and Sportsman cars.
Why? it's all I could afford.
and now this LSR thing has me building a slow motorcycle.
Why? same reason.
Would I be running a dirt late model or a turbo Busa if funds allowed? Absolutely!
Racing and hotrods have always been my folly and like many here,
I have probably spent too much money doing it. (according to my wife, I most definitely have).
If racing were my business, I'm not so sure that it would be as alluring to me, it would be more like going to work than getting to go racing.
My hat is off to all of those who have been able to make a living racing and doing what they love.
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Just looked at the certified records list on the SCTA site. A lot of very impressive records for such a small event. I went to see the Speed Demon, just to say "I was there!!) and to hopefully see some of the newer liners start to strut there stuff. I hoped Arlo would start showing some speed but am happy to see the 77 steamliner ran 373 on Friday after I had left. Ralph Hudson's bike records and the Das Bullet record with a 121 C.I. engine in F that allows 180c.i. is most impressive.IMHO
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I'm sure George Poteet is plotting to get on a 6 mile FIA race track. If you inter the mile at 481 mph I think you might get over the out right wheel driven speed record and for sure a 500 exit speed. Do they use exit speed in FIA?
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It's my understanding that George didn't want to take part in an FIA meet (Cook was trying to set up a "Shootout") this year.
The "Exit speed at an FIA meet is the difference between the two measured distances - the mile and the kilometer. It works out to almost exactly 1000 feet, rather than the 132 feet at other Bonneville meets.
Jeff in Boise
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The usual procedure to become a paid professional engine builder is to spend some of one's own money to make a winning motor. This proves that a person knows what they are doing. After this, sponsorship or professional building can follow. It seems unrealistic for a builder to expect sponsorship in a venue where they have not proven their ability to deliver the goods.
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In the case of WJ, he is an engine builder of the highest order. As far as sponsorship is concerned, no drama there, GM has given him millions. Does Warren have the ability to source the info to have success at BV. No problem. GM put money into the Ecotech 2 liter turbo platform at Bonneville and had some success but probably learned enough to discount putting further $$ into it even with WJ. I think the trick is to use a known successful platform.I think WJ was going to hook up with Jack Costella. With Jack's coaching it would have been very interesting indeed.