Landracing Forum
Introductions => Formulas => Topic started by: puppy on February 24, 2020, 06:54:17 PM
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Is there any way to calculate the wheelbase for a given target speed for a standing mile Lakester? Or wheelbase length per power output?Or do you just make it as long as possible? Im looking at F engine size(180c.i.) and don't really want to be heavier than absolutely necessary...
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Lay out, on the floor or paper, everything that needs to go in it and see how short you can make it. The SCTA has a minimum wheelbase for F lakester of 95 inches
John
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Lay out, on the floor or paper, everything that needs to go in it and see how short you can make it. The SCTA has a minimum wheelbase for F lakester of 95 inches
John
Also. Calculate the maximum height of your power plant. Once you've done that subtract the amount you need above your helmet which is the roll cage tube, any cap and the thickness of the body work. Use this measurement to design your seating position, in the position you sit your helmet needs to be lower than this, if it isn't you are wasting aero....
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You really need to read the rule book. That will give the min and max allowances. A lot of it revolves around how you package the car plus you need to get in and out etc etc. There is no magic ?Formulae? because if there was everything would be the same. Look at what else is out there, lay out your tubing and do a mock set up. Oh and remember that weight is not your enemy.
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Oh and remember that weight is not your enemy.
It might be, he said he wants to run a mile event.
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Ours is about 144 inches.. give or take.... but your experience may vary.... as said everyone is different.
Build what you think will work... within the rules :cheers:
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Is there any way to calculate the wheelbase for a given target speed for a standing mile Lakester? Or wheelbase length per power output?Or do you just make it as long as possible? Im looking at F engine size(180c.i.) and don't really want to be heavier than absolutely necessary...
As the previous respondents have answered, there is no answer. Everyone here is willing to help, just not willing to design your car (or bike) for you. IME one has to show up with either a bad idea that is so bad everyone will pile on, or a bad enough idea that nobody will pile on... and then the Original Poster has to convey a willingness to accept criticism in public. You might be approached in private message by those in the know if you have the right attitude. I ain't your guy, because I don't have your answer, but I've benefited from the community. :friday :cheers:
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I learned a LOT by laying out a chassis our of 2X2 wood (2X4 split) screwed together bef-ore bending one piece of tubing. We went longer is better but found out later that too long is hard to find a trailer. We run F/BFL at Loring with 220" wb.
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Thanks everyone for the input. I am waiting for my rule book in the mail as I type this! I actually have begun to build a wood mockup out of 2x2 as Bearing Burner suggested.
I come from a sprint car, midget and road racing background, so I'm used to thinking about weight. Also I know that with a smaller engine, I wont have gobs of torque to get moving, that's why I'm concerned about weight in this project.
Would you guys mind sharing photos of your cars and what engine combo and times you've run and where? Not trying to steal ideas, but I do love the flexibility of the rules...
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I'm responding only to point out that your first decision is about your priorities. For example, the lakester I bought (see my avatar) was built to resemble those from 60 years ago, which "gives away" a lot in aerodynamics (and maybe handling) to modern shapes. Since I share the builder's priorities, my engine is basically 1962 vintage. If my main priority were to exceed a record, I would do things much differently. Just sayin'....
P.S.- Another of my priorities was to participate in landspeed racing during this lifetime- which is why I bought a proven lakester, rather than build from scratch.
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Pup... you don't find a lot of Lakesters running the mile... mostly because the mile events want 4 wheel brakes... the majority of Special Construction LSR cars are built for the long track... Bonneville... and rely on a parachute to slow down. Yes there are a couple of guys that run the mile, lots of door cars and bikes too.
With that said, here's a pic of our lakester... we only run Bonneville... have run engines 3/4 liter to 2 liter, the fastest it has been is 246 with 1.5 blown. It has a 10 inch disc brake with an opposed dual piston caliper... never been used over 30 MPH... would not be allowed to run the mile anywhere
:cheers:
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If you want to be successful try to steal every idea you can--- there are very very few things new under this sun I used an idea on a very successful car and learned several years later why he most likely had done it that way----he was following the example of an even earlier car that I had never seen the pictures of
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I am building a lakester (as a rookie) and the people here have qc'd me every step (by way of discussion and photos on my build diary) and that advice has been invaluable.
If I read your initial inquiry right you are intending to run a 3 litre (I'm in the UK so had to convert to new money) so the rules will dictate you use some pretty heavy duty roll structure tubing as you have to build to the existing class record for Bonneville / SCTA and that is well over 200.
I designed my roll structure in pvc waste pipe and duct tape around me and then worked backwards for the engine etc (rear engine, in line gearbox; mine is a 2 litre 4 cylinder); I am near 150 inch wheel base and will be thrilled if I come in under 2000 lb all up.
If all goes to plan (if the stars align, the entrails are favorable, the runes fall just right) I might qualify to get on the long course so that is 5 miles to get up to speed on the salt. :cheers:
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Guys, I don't foresee ever being able to afford to head out to Bonneville (to compete anyways), with the time off work, towing out ect? As I'm in Michigan. I have not been to any landspeed event, so am unfamiliar with most aspects of this kind of racing..I'd say that my "priority" is to have a lakester type of midget, basically a stretched out midget with my old midget engine( 166 C.I. 60 degree Chevy V-6 with Potter heads from the late 80's -mid 90's era), with midget axles. I haven't figured out a transmission yet. I hope to be far under that 2000 lb. mentioned, although I guess we'll see... I don't have a problem with 4 wheel brakes, I'll just have to design that into the build. One thing I have going against me is a thing that has followed me throughout my other endeavors is that I'm tall and wide at the shoulders (better built for football than for race driving but hey what can I do haha).
Anyways its nice to have conversation with peeps on this subject as my other racing friends kind of give the deer in the headlights look whenever not talking of "their" kind of racing?.
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Puppy, it's quite likely if you go into your profile and make your location fairly specific you may find there's someone living close to you that either competes at Bonneville or is at least rather familiar with the racing there. In many cases it helps to have someone you can talk to or who can look at something and offer another view. We're generally a fairly sociable bunch.
Pete
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Pup, Is your midget just in/out box transmission that needs push started? I like your idea of sorta stretching what you have to get enough wheelbase to fall in the rule spec... I suspect you already have 4 wheel brakes? The tube difference between what you have and what you need is probably less than 150 lbs.
And the tall thing... the pic I posted the square outside measures 16 tall by 24 wide... the roll bar is about 10 inches taller... the car is 20 ft long.... I am 6' 3'' and about 215 most days.... so just think about sitting lower in the part you stretch to get some wheelbase....
you can see the build diary for it's replacement here
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=16896.0
Have fun, be safe, go fast... :cheers:
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Maybe stretching was the wrong term. It will be a fresh new chassis with engine and trans in the rear and driver ahead of engine. I want the lower profile front for low frontal area. So it will look much the same as other lakesters I have seen pictures of. I was planning to use some 4 or 5 speed trans but not sure what bellhousings are available for this engine. It does have the stock external dimensions but it is an aluminum Bowtie block.
Dang that is one long thread!!! I'll take a look!
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If you think that is a long one, check out the Australian Belly Tank build cromag
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If you are NOT planning to run at Bonneville, you don't need a Bonneville car. For running a paved standing mile you should look into what the Drag Racers are doing.
Here's a suspended rear axle in a Bracket Dragster.
(https://racetechracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Race-Tech-Suspended-Dragster-Rear-Clip.jpg)
A MacPherson strut front suspension, with disc brakes, as used by Pro Stock cars
(http://www.lambcomponents.com/images/large/prostop2_LRG.jpg)
I'd build a cross between the back-half a Rear Engine Dragster and the front-half of an older Indycar.
(https://i.imgur.com/JAx2f0Q.jpg?fb)
(https://oilpressure.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/65lotus38.jpg)
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lots of inline engs will need wide wher your shoulders are think of a modified stop sign shape Remember after about 60 mph aero gets to be a larger and LARGER factor
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Jack Brabham in the Lotus in '61, right?
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Maybe stretching was the wrong term. It will be a fresh new chassis with engine and trans in the rear and driver ahead of engine. I want the lower profile front for low frontal area. So it will look much the same as other lakesters I have seen pictures of. I was planning to use some 4 or 5 speed trans but not sure what bellhousings are available for this engine. It does have the stock external dimensions but it is an aluminum Bowtie block.
Dang that is one long thread!!! I'll take a look!
Well Pup, When you start building, I suspect your thread will be just a long, maybe longer... Just look at the builds that are there... don't have to read them all, but you should see an abundance of help and suggestions offered... and lots of ideas to try to meld together to get to where you want to be...
Your current situation may not take you to Bonneville right now.....
but who knows the future :cheers:
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Jim Clark....Indy 500....1965....Lotus 38
Jack Brabham in the Lotus in '61, right?
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Thanks again everyone for the input and suggestions!
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With a clean body design the biggest aero drag is the wheels; you want the smallest that are safe for the projected speed.
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With a clean body design the biggest aero drag is the wheels; you want the smallest that are safe for the projected speed.
Today they enter turn one at Indianapolis at over 200 mph. Before they changed the rules to slow them down, they entered turn one much faster.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/ArieLuyendyk1996recordcar.jpg/1600px-ArieLuyendyk1996recordcar.jpg)
Arie Luyendyk's tire are just the right size for going fast on pavement. Every lap was a ?NNNNeeeewwww LLLLaaaaapppp RRRReeecccooorrd!!!? The result was an average speed over the four laps of 236.986mph, three mph faster than the pole speed set the previous day. His final tour was 237.498mph, which also still stands as the Single Fastest Qualifying Lap. http://www.motorsportretro.com/2012/05/indy-500-arie-luyendyk/
If Puppy has ran sportscars and roundy-round midgets/sprints his driving driving experience is different than most Landspeed racers.
I'm used to climbing on the binders at 140 mph on pavement. I'm sure that Puppy has done that too.
At this point in my life, I have no interest in running Bonneville, been there done that (two records). If I built a car today, it would be for FIA Standing Kilometer record attempts. The problem is that 1.82 ? and a FIA World Record won't buy you a cup of coffee. Neither will $2.00 and a SCTA Record.
I'm interested in seeing what the O.P. ends up building.
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At this point in my life, I have no interest in running Bonneville, been there done that (two records). If I built a car today, it would be for FIA Standing Kilometer record attempts. The problem is that 1.82 ? and a FIA World Record won't buy you a cup of coffee.
The one and a half mile pavement courses are good for standing kilo attempts, and flying kilos as well, if only they'd set up lights for it. The other bad thing about standing kilo records is they don't sound fast when you try to brag about them, as they are average speeds for the kilo rather than a peak number.
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I was at Indy when Arie set that record. I was on the Loophole Racing team. Fun days!
Here is a sketch of what i'm thinking of...
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Also guys, has anyone done a front wheel drive car before? Aside from finding affordable (is that a word in racing?) parts to build it out of. I have thought about turning the engine and trans around and having it drive the front wheels. Would make for more room in the back for my large frame. I know it could affect the CG/CoP thing....
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Front wheel drive can be made to work :lol: Check out: http://www.blacksaltracing.com/home.html (http://www.blacksaltracing.com/home.html)
(http://nebula.wsimg.com/93ede8d55e2e6e470aa3d48538dcb86d?AccessKeyId=54761AA93B2F74238280&disposition=0&alloworigin=1)
Mike
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Thanks Mike, that car is way cool!
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The other bad thing about standing kilo records is they don't sound fast when you try to brag about them, as they are average speeds for the kilo rather than a peak number.
To quote Reggie Jackson: The only person I have to impress is me. :-)
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The British would set up a standing start kilometre for any driver or rider on a pre-surveyed runway.
The USA hold the FIA record speeds. In A-I-10 and A-I-13 they are 132.716mph and 132.910mph. Held by Mickey Thompson.
The UK national solo motorbike record speed is nearing twenty years old and stands at 127.27mph. The FIM World bike SS 1km is 127.309mph.
[The Absolute FIA standing start kilometre record speed is 234.775mph (but you may have guessed) it is in C-TH-RT to the Pollution Packer rocket car.]
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If a fuel dragster hit 300 mph in 4 seconds in 1000 ft and continued at that speed for the rest of the kilo, it would average about 243 mph, by my calculation.
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Hey Pup, notice how some threads take on an off topic life of their own? :cheers:
Straying is in our nature around here 1drink
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It would definitely be worth your time to visit some of the venues this year. Loring always has a pretty diverse mix of vehicles to investigate. The July event is scheduled Wednesday -> Sunday (if there's anyone left to run). Also, the rules are online: www.loringtiming.com.
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Hey Pup, notice how some threads take on an off topic life of their own? :cheers:
Straying is in our nature around here 1drink
I see and that's ok! I enjoy hearing like minded peeps chat about these things!
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To Tortoise #33. The Top Fuel dragster would need (a) a fully prepared and groomed track available in both directions and (b) tyres that could last the kilometre distance (that is an extra 2300ft) at sustained speed (both front and rear). I do not know of any dragstrip that could be used for land speed record breaking.
ps of course the motor would have to complete the longer distance on its first run intact and then be ready to do the return pass over the 3300ft within one hour.
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To Malcolm... A top fueler Dragster, Funny Car could back off the tune of 10,000 +hp,
less nitro, less timing, less initial throttle, ECT. and still have plenty of power to go faster than 132 mph.
Sorta like Arley Langlo is doing in his Streamliner. Motors out of his Top Fuel dragster.
JL222
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To Malcolm... A top fueler Dragster, Funny Car could back off the tune of 10,000 +hp,
less nitro, less timing, less initial throttle, ECT. and still have plenty of power to go faster than 132 mph.
I know right? They blow the tires off and get out of the gas after a half second and still go through the traps at 130MPH :-) :-D :-o
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Have you guys walked on a drag strip lately.... did it pull your shoes off? :x
I think that is what Malcolm is talking about... Most of the runways aren't prepped with VHT, for 3300 so it would be traction limited for most dragsters.
OK who wants to take their TF car to Loring 1drink :friday :cheers:
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To Tortoise #33. The Top Fuel dragster would need (a) a fully prepared and groomed track available in both directions and (b) tyres that could last the kilometre distance (that is an extra 2300ft) at sustained speed (both front and rear). I do not know of any dragstrip that could be used for land speed record breaking.
Why would anyone, who doesn't have a death wish, want to use a Top Fuel car? A Junior Fuel dragster (Five liters unblown) would be scary-fast running 3280.8 ft (one klick). I was thinking that a three liter (183 inch) car could work with available tire-technology.
Why would you need a dragstrip? Wendover Airport ( the former Wendover Air Force Base) has two 8,000-foot (2,400 meters) runways and at least one record has been set there. The longest of Mojave Air and Space Port's (home of the Mojave Mile) three runways is 12,503 feet (3,811 meters). The Bridgestone/Firestone Test Track at Fort Stockton Texas is a 7.7 mile oval (straights over 1.5 miles), and was used by AJ Foyt to set a flying mile record, 257.123 mph (413.788 km/h).
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Based on my limited experience some things to consider in laying out and fabbing a lakester drivers compartment.
Design it big, far easier to shim supports and padding in to fit future smaller drivers or owners than have to rebuild larger later. Factor in provisions for adjusting seat, control, and pedal positions for the same reason.
Take all layout measurements with full driver gear on or close mock up substitutes such as heavy insulated winter coat/bib overalls for firesuit, strings/straps for arm restraints, helmet same as or very close to one to be used, head and neck restraint device, etc. Factor in the recommended belt/harness mounts and routing for the system you choose. Usually having all adjusters pulling towards the central latch works best for lakesters. Little differences in eye port in helmet / seat layback match for line of sight can cause issues later. I wear bi focal's and discovered that a pair with just the distance portion ground in worked best for me to focus down course with the tach needle position in view at the same time. Glanced at the water temp and oil pressure needle positions at the start line then after going through the lights, saved any close number studies until reading the data logs later in the pits.
Tip from another lakester team that really helped us - some switches are more easily operated with arm restraints hooked up when mounted across the body on the opposite side. We located the inertia/roll over electrical cut out (used a stock Ford) for the electric fuel pump there for a quick reset if necessary alongside the elec water pump switch and starter button. Another tip from same team that works well - vertical post just ahead of the quick disconnect steering wheel for wheel storage and use as a handle for driver to pull forward, up, and out of the cage during exit or bailout.
Used a pull to activate fire bottle cable after seeing a push to activate cable on another lakester get broken right at the pin hole when a crew member happened to hit it while reaching into the cockpit to do work in the pits.
Car I drove is all set up so left hand can remain on the wheel at all times with the right operating the shifter and all other switches and controls. Just seems the most natural to me, I figure more natural comfort equals more time and focus for the driving. All done while keeping an easy smooth bailout with the least amount of time required in mind.
Stay safe, have fun, go fast :-)
Ed
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Shifting gear with the right hand is not natural :-D
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New England right hand........... :cheers:
Ed