Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Flyingbrick on November 27, 2006, 09:27:18 AM
-
Hi Everyone
Have read through an old rule book but cant figure which class the car would fit. The car isn't built yet so changes can be made.
The plan is a stock 41 Willys body (fibreglass) using a home built chassis (spaceframe)running a narrowed rear end with independent front. Guess the motor will be a big block at present.
Hope that's enough info Gary
-
I don't know which book you have but Production and Gas coupe needs a stock frame. . Start with the Modified catagory and continue on to the comp and altered coupes. You may need info on the vintage boby classes depending of the engine you are planing to use. Also for the classic class its area has some specific rules to follow with engines....
Those body styles have been known to fly at speeds over 150 so what ever your plans may take that into consideration. "Modified drag" styles for those bodies have a lot of additional changes to the body which make them illegal for any class in the SCTA.
Good Luck
-
Ta for the reply Jimmy
Looked at modified but it said has to seat 4 which would be a squeeze in a willys :lol: Have found someone with a 2006 rulebook which I can borrow so will look under your suggestions.
Many thanks Gary
-
In the comp coupe rules it states a pre-1949 body does not need to comply with the 4 seats. We have a lot of 34 Ford types running in the fuel/gas altered classes and I'm sure your choice would fit into the same class if that's what you choose to do.. The Fords always used the rumble seat excuse.
Many cars in the 40's did not come with rear seats but still can run with gas/fuel altereds. It's obvious to anyone but a lawyer that your choice would not fall into the class of a "sportscar" because of the 2 passengers. I'm sure at some poiint Dan will chime in unless he thinks I've touched all the bases.
In 1975 when I started, frequently a '41 Willys ran at El Mirage and it was in the altered class. Once again good luck with your project
-
Hi Jimmy thanks for your advice
Had a chat with a couple of guys running Willys over here at the drags and the general opinion was that any wind made things scary at the end of a quarter mile run. I have never been to the salt but figure big open spaces normally have some sort of breeze so have scraped that idea.
The plan now is to run a 32 roadster as I have never built one. Will still run in modified in some form, have started collecting any postings relating to this.
Many thanks Gary
-
Gary,
Good idea to change body style.
If a '41 Willys was scary @ a 1/4 mile, just think what it would be like at 3 - 5 miles with a cross wind with very little traction!
Tom
-
Gary,
Another thought. If you are starting from scratch without being locked into a body you have sitting in the back yard you have many options. Besides the whole variety of engine choices, roadster body choice also involves a lot of variables. As an example; a '32 is a classic style and affords some room to package all the systems required but would be a little less aerodynamic that say a '29 or '27 that are narrower. Not as big a deal in vintage class or lower Street Roadster classes that are running under 150 MPH.
If you are looking at Fuel/Gas Roadster or Modified Roadster then body style is more important as speeds increase. The potential driver's size is also an issue. One of the most important things in a Roadster is getting the driver down as low as possibe (out of the air stream) same as the Roll Cage. The '29 and '32 have a little more leg room than a '27. Again F/G or Modified Roadsters allow a longer wheelbase, different engine positions, hood lenghts and firewall locations.
Real simple to choose isn't it !
Establish a good game plan before starting:
Do you just want to go fast? How fast?
Want to set a record? Cherry pick the class and engine size.
Just want to have fun, be safe and run as fast as your combo will go?
I hope this gives you something to think about.
Tom
-
Thanks for the comments Tom.
Your comment on body aerodynamics got the brain juices going, the overall idea is to have fun and run at the salt so have some planning to do. Any advice you have would help, so feel free to chip in whenever. Mentioned the ideas to my Father who seems up for having a go himself which will be fun.
One Question
In Modified Roadster do you have to run with an original size grill shell for the year of the car? I note that you can extend the wheelbase and must have a minimum wheelbase for engine size.
Gary
-
Gary,
In "Modified Roadster" you can streamline the nose of the car just about any way you like; from tappered to bullet or pointed nose, to using some type of laid back mini grill shell like a '34, to get a little downforce.
These are generalities for the class based only on my own observations since I really haven't studied the Rule Book for the class. I do look at the class with envy. Running a Street Roadster myself, the limitations of the class make creativity a little tougher.
With Modifed Roadster you have a lot more flexibility. With the longer wheelbase and the ability to change the Driver position to be more of a laid down with legs straight out, a '23 Body is very popular because of being so narrow. The major constrain is keeping the body ,cowl back, basically stock configuration, but that's no big deal because of the other AERO advantages.
Tom
-
Brick- you need a Bonneville program (just about any year will do) and look at the pictures of all types of roadsters if that is what you want to do. You need to follow all the sections of the rule book which pertain to what you want to build. You need to meet all sections of the rulebook which pertain to safety and construction.
A inspection checkoff is avalable at the SCTA-BNI website. (on the left side)..Good luck
-
Hi Jimmy
Did as you suggested and got a program. Perfect solution for identifiying what i want to run, picking a class isnt as easy as I thought it would be but still fun :-D
Read through the rule book during the holidays and guess I need to read it a couple more times at least. once I have worked out what im doing will post idea for feedback from you guys incase I have missed anything :roll:.
Tom can you email me a pic of your car, would like to see it and see what fits in your class.
Happy New Year to you all, go fast but be safe 8-)
-
Flying Brick,
A truly fitting discription of a Street Roadster. I was going to send some pictures via a PM, but couldn't figure out how to attach them. I'll sent a PM with my regular E-mail address and connect that way.
Tom
-
Hey Brick ---- one more suggestion with reading of the book. After you feel you have the right class wherther it be street, gas/fuel, modified,or rear engine modified; remember to go back to the "vintage catagory" and meet all those rules pertaining to what one you are building. The exact Class has a lot of info, but you still need to meet the Catagory too.
If you are picking Street Roadster any roadster up to 1938 is legal. We see them all set records. 27's seem to dominate the smaller engines with 29's next. 32's hold some records and the big engines have 34's (all Fords of course). Roadsters with superchargers kinda aim toward the bigger cars but not always.
Good luck with your project .......
-
Hey Tone,
Tell me again how many classes I can run with just 1 1932 Hi Boy like mine.
It must be a bunch.
More than an open bike I bet.
Jack
-
Ask Shug Hanchard. He set 5 records in one week with one car, 3 different classes, 2 fuels. Starting as a XO/BSTR. Your a pretty smart guy, you figure it out....Just remember the difference in classes says you "may" do something....not "shall"................................JD
-
Ask Shug Hanchard. He set 5 records in one week with one car, 3 different classes, 2 fuels. Starting as a XO/BSTR. Your a pretty smart guy, you figure it out....Just remember the difference in classes says you "may" do something....not "shall"................................JD
Yup. I think I got it because I did that same record thing every day of a full speedweek for 2 years in a row 20 years go.
I did a lot of may or may not stuff also.
The bikers need more imagination I guess. LOL :wink:.
-
Jack is certainly creative, not only in rule book interpretation but execution. To make a single car competive in multiple classes, much less setting records, is quite an accomplishment!
I was talking with Jack last night at the SDRC meeting and listened to how with some fairly simple changes you could go from a Street Roadster to Gas Roadster to Modified Roadster. The switch from gas to fuel is obviously easy, with some tuning issues. To be able to run competively while going up in body classes while not being able to take advantage of the big differences in wheel base/ engine setback/ aerodynamic front ends is amazing.
I remember talking to a family at El Mirage several years ago that had a Street Roadster/Modified Roadster where they could remove the rear fenders and headlites and add a frame extension and a new nose. It was a very slick setup. As I recall the conversion could be performed in several hours.
It's hard enough to get a car competive in one class much less several. My hat's off to anyone who tries!
Tom
-
Too bad Tom is such a kid and never saw my back motored dragster style lakester made into a streamliner with the 32 Ford front fenders on the rear facing backwards.
They were sure swoopey.
I remember the old timers starting to be upset because they thought I notched a real set and the smiles as they walked away when they saw the fenders were fibre glass.
I walked away with a record and Basketcase walked a picture into Hot Rod.
-
Gary,
See what I mean about Jack being creative!
TG
-
Tom that was Ed Hardings roadster. Now Shugs. It was a legal street roadster. He set a record. Took the lights and fenders off to make it a gas/fuel roadster..Did that because he had too. Set 2 more records. Came back into inspection and entered it as a modified. MADE NO CHANGES. You don't have to. Everything in a modified says "may" set 2 more records...Granted all of them were low speeds on open records. He still has 4 of them
I personally would be against any changes in the rules. If you can set a modified roadster record with a street roadster with the fenders off; all it does is make people build the proper car and put the records where they belong...
I always thought the whiners in the coupe classes were dumb for changing the rules so a Gas coupe couldn't run in Comp coupe. Who cares if you are faster than a real comp cpe with a gas coupe. Just shows you know what you are doing and the competition doesn't....Just an opinion...J.D.
-
Hey wait !
Tone is stealing my lines !
That is not fair that he can do it so easy.
Did I tell you I did the same thing with door slammers too ?
NO?
That is good because that is still a speed secret that is safe with me and safe from Honda also. LOL
-
You mean I put that ugly nose on my roadster just so I could run in V4F/GMR when I didn't have to? Now that there is a V4F/GR class they tell me.
-
You mean I put that ugly nose on my roadster just so I could run in V4F/GMR when I didn't have to? Now that there is a V4F/GR class they tell me.
They were not supposed to tell you !
Oh, never mind, that is not a bike is it. LOL
-
Hi guys
Heard a few stories about Shugs from a fellow countryman of his, dont know the guy myself so will only say that he seems to be an inventive fellow, allegedly drove his car to the Nats overhere, broke the gearbox some miles from the event so drove the car in reverse to get there 8-) If he got the records using the rules, well done that man :-D
Tom have sent you a reply on your email address.
Having a look at a roadster body tomorrow, fibreglass and reasonably cheap :-D
-
Hi Gary,
I got your E-mail and sent you some pictures of my car, then today I send pictures of Street Roadsters and a number of Gas/Fuel Roadsters and various types of Modified Roadsters (including Rear Engine) the we took at Bonneville this year. There were 4 seperate E-mails because I could only attach 5 pictures per message. There must be a better way.
Tom
-
Hi Tom have sent you a pm
Have a 34 roadster body now does anyone out there run a 34 in modified class?
Gary
-
Tom
How about posting some of those roadster pictures here for all us "roadster types" to see. I believe even the bike guys will allow it.
John
-
There are 34 roadsters that run modified
-
Hi Tom have sent you a pm
Have a 34 roadster body now does anyone out there run a 34 in modified class?
Gary
Yep, a real pretty one too.
-
Hi GeneF
That is a pretty looking car 8-)
What front grill has it got, from the photo it looks like a track nose?
Gary
-
Hi GeneF
That is a pretty looking car 8-)
What front grill has it got, from the photo it looks like a track nose?
Gary
Not mine, (I wish) I took the pic at the 03 W/Fs and yes it did have a track nose.
-
Gary,
Just got back from a trip and saw your note about not receiving the E-mails with attached pictures.
Glad to hear that you got the '34 Body. I'll narrow the focus on wider body styles. There was a great looking '34 @ Bonneville running in Rear Engine Modified Roadster.
The "old" Kelly and Hall '34 pictured above is one of my favorites. Not only did it run good, but it just looked RIGHT!
Tom
-
Hi Tom
Glad to hear from you was wondering if you had recieved that pm.
Roadster body is at home now :-) now have something to start planning around. My father has been asking what motor we are going to use, which means he has a plan of sorts in his head. Been sorting out my pile of parts to see what I have that might be of use.
Gary
-
Gary,
Did you receive the PM's at your new E-mail address? I sent some pictures of '34 and later modified roadsters.
I even tried to post a picture of the 212 REMR yesterday but got a message that the file was too big. I guess I need help in properly sizing digital pictures.
Tom
-
Tom:
There's a free, rather easy to use program, that resizes, here: http://www.xemico.com/photogadget/ (http://www.xemico.com/photogadget/)
Mike
-
Thanks Mike,
I'll give it a try.
Tom
-
Kudos on approaching the body/class question early.
Even if a guy's first inclination is to run "what he's got" "just for fun/experience" it's a very worthwhile approach.
We're from the "it's what we had so we built it" camp. A situation that leads to a lot of questions and soul searching within the crew as we work for a little bit more every year. The more involved we are at Bonneville the more the goals of the individuals in the group evolve. The "have fun", "gain experience" thinking gets joined by "be competitive" and "record" thoughts. The latter two place a lot of pressure on decisions made early in the project.
Mike
-
Hi Tom
Yes got your pics thanks, liked the action shots of your car :-D, it looks great. Could you send some pics of your role cage (no rush )for my files. I have been following a thread on head restraints and movement inside the cage but havent seen a cage similair to yours over here, also yours passed tech inspection. The other pics gave lots of things to think about. Couldnt open "coffee table" not a file according to my pc.
Cword thanks for the reply. I Like to have a picture or plan of what Im going to build, it makes it easier and faster if you know what you want/need in a project, "be competitive" has already crept into the discussions :-)
-
Mike,
Excellent advice. Message board users see a little bit of what questions that are asked. The "I'll build what I think is good and on hand. I will ask the classification question when I get there." post is one of the most popular. What is seen here is maybe 1/3 of the same question I and others get.
DW
-
Gary,
I will send a picture of my roll cage. It's been redone twice; once for height, I'm 6'2" previous driver was 5'8", and most recently to widen the shoulder bar (it was too narrow to fit comfortably). As I may have mentioned before but not necessassarily on this thread, that having a comfortably driver is very important. In designing the cockpit have all the important controls in a tight circle of one hand, i.e. Shifter, chute release, ignition and fuel shut-off, fire bottle, etc so that you can opperate everything without switching hands. It's important to be able to reach everything easily without having to think where things are, you want things to be automatic actions. Arrange things in level of importance; chute release, fuel shut-off, ignition shut-off and fire bottle controls.
One of the new rules that will come into play soon is that head movement must be limited to 2" in any direction. A well designed cage should accomplish both aft and side to side movement. I sit back in my cage with less than 1" to the head rest but found @ Bonneville that at speed my helmet started to rotate back and I had to reach up and pull down on the helmet to see the gauges, NOT A GOOD THING! I fabricated a secondary pad out of 1' round tubing with a piece of roll bar padding mounted on a bent piece of .125" steel sheet about 4 " wide. The new pad is in the top quadrent of the helmet and actually causes the helmet to rotate slightly forward at speed. Lucked out on that design.
Starting from scratch like you are you can also focus on getting the driver down out of the wind, aided by a good windscreen design.
Hope this helps! This is not gospel but just my observations.
I sort of wish I had started out from a blank piece of paper, but live and learn.
Race cars are not static. They evolve as speed increases and little things become important.
Have fun and keep everyone updated on your progress.
Tom
-
Gary,
Also look at topic on "hutchens head restraint device" on this forum.
Tom
-
Tom
Have been following that thread, have also looked at some pics on the build diaries for more info with regard to cockpit layout. Getting to the point of doing some rough drawings for the chassis.
Would just like to say thankyou to you and everyone else for your input, I was unsure how I would be able to get answers to questions that only you guys would understand. I fel very much at home Here 8-)
Gary