Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: RacerX on November 23, 2006, 10:35:19 PM
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Hello all! I have been racing for thirty years in other venues and find myself a complete novice!! :oops: I hope you'll all be kind and friendly to a newbie. :oops: I've been running different ideas in my head for classes to come and run with you. My question is if I want to use a tall deck block in a V-8 and I have to use an intake spacer/adapter to bolt the intake on, will this break rule 4-N
Definition for engine swap "An engine swap is the replacement of the original engine with one of a design, which was not available as a factory option for the particular car in question. The main factors used in determining design differences are cylinder head bolt pattern,INTAKE MANIFOLD BOLT PATTERN and bellhousing bolt pattern. "
Again if I use a tall deck block for more stroke (to make a class displacement break) and I need an adapter to make the intake fit, Am I getting called on it?? :cry: Thank you all! Jim
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In my mind that is "not" an engine swap as the design is the same and the rules say "bore and stroke is not considered".
The items you mentioned can be used to determine if it is an engine sway, but that, in my mind, doesn't say they necessarily are used to determine if it is an engine sway.
For instance if you take an early sbc block and put vortec heads on it you have to use a different intake manifold with a different bolt pattern, but I don't think this would constitute an engine swap if it was in a '57 chevy. Now if you used a 350 LS-1 motor in the '57 I believe that would be a different motor even if it used the same bore spacing as the earlier sbc since nothing else is the same or interchangeable between the LS and earlier sbc's.
I'm not the one that would check you in impound though, so you had better get Dan's or JD's opinion on your plans.
c ya,
Sum
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Thanks for the reply! I understand!. I will check with Dan & J.D.! How do I get ahold of them? Jim
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Thanks for the reply! I understand!. I will check with Dan & J.D.! How do I get ahold of them? Jim
They tend to hang out around here.
While their word is not set in stone, it represents a lot of experience and if
it is beyond their scope they will steer you in the right direction promptly.
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RacerX,
The tall deck will not violate theenagine swap rule. As Sum wrote, a 350 is different than a 283 so it will be considered a swap, or sway as they say in Sum's area.
DW
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I was recently talking to a Street Roadster competitor who had been running a 340 Dodge with a 360 crank. The thing became defunct and he had to buy replacement heads from MoPar. The new heads came with 18 bolts rather than the original 10. He called MoPar to ask what's the deal, and was told that's what is available now. So he had to buy a replacement block to fit the heads. Is this now an engine swap?
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RacerX,
The tall deck will not violate the engine swap rule. As Sum wrote, a 350 is different than a 283 so it will be considered a swap, or sway as they say in Sum's area.
DW
Now I'm confused :? . Are you saying if you pulled a 283 sbc and replaced it with a 350 sbc it "would be" an engine swap?
I was under the impression you could use a 400 sbc block in a '55 that came with a 265 since is was the same design and you could even use an aftermarket replacement block for the stock block that could take you over 454 cu. in. since it is still the same small block design and accepts all the small block accessories, heads , manifolds, etc..
Ok Dan I'm waiting to be "swayed" one way or the other here :roll:.
c ya,
Sum
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Yeah me too is confused??? I can understand an LS series small block Gen III which shares little with the classic SBC being a swap but what about later vortech heads that fit classic SBC. This of course does change intake bolt pattern? A no no according to 4-N ???
Tall deck, same heads, different intake gasket/spacers to bolt up original intake. Hmmmmmm :( Jim
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Can you tell us what kind of car you are working with and the year ?
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If we read the rule book we will find that replacing a 265 sbc with a 350sbc is specifically mentioned as not an "engine swap" You do have a rule book don't you?
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If we read the rule book we will find that replacing a 265 sbc with a 350sbc is specifically mentioned as not an "engine swap" You do have a rule book don't you?
That is exactly why I was puzzled by Dan's reply. I must be reading something into his reply that isn't there.
c ya,
Sum
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Hi Dan and all! The mystery deepens! :lol: Jim
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Hi Dan and all! The mystery deepens! :lol: Jim
What year and make of car are you dealing with ?
For example the same basic body shell might have been offered as a
Chev., Olds., Pont,. and Buick.
Each specific year and make might have shared the same basic body but
the finish trim and motor options might not have included the Corporate Small Block V-8 you have.
Find a combination that never offered the SBC and make it one of those.
With the appropriate fenders etc. and documentation , you have it.
Be sure and study at home because it is liable to be on the test. :wink:
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I think Dan was hitting the turkey dressing while answering this question. The classic example is "A 350 in a '55 Chevy is not an engine swap. A 396 in a '55 Chevy would be an engine swap.
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_ _ _ _ HAPPENS.
What is a four letter word for mistakes ?
Come on guys, i know you kmow it. :wink:
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Oh sorry guys. The car is 2000 Mustang with a 4.6 V-8. The tall deck block allows more displacement of course (5.4) BUT will not allow me to run the intake I want without small adapters plates. This is same basic engine with most parts interchangeable however the intake won't quite bolt on? Thanks again! Jim
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I presume the Merc ran the same motor.
Was the tall block only offered in the trucks ?
Was there an export version under another name that didn't offer the base block ?
You might make it one of those.
The truck deal might be your path since perhaps it was never offered in the car.
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Hi Jack, The 5.4 was a truck block. I think it was clearly of the same engine family. Legal for Production? Jim
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It would seem there are some wrinkles in the rules.
1. Does unapproved gas in a production car make it a fuel coupe ?
2. Do headlight covers on a production car make it an altered, add
unapproved gas, is it a fuel altered ?
3. Does a quick change in a production car make it a gas coupe ?
I wonder sometimes. :wink:
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I was told that a Packard engine in a '52 Studebaker truck would be legal for Production/Pickup as '56 Stude Golden Hawks came with Packard engines. Of course that's hearsay and may not hold up, should the need ever arise. But if the truck motor has the same bell housing bolt pattern, same head bolt pattern and same manifold bolt pattern, it seems like it should be legal for pro.
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I have two 51 Stud PUs and one 52.
I would suggest that a Packard V-8 would not be production.
I am making the 52 into a 4dr Woody SW on my own production line.
Ya woulda thought it was perfected by now.
Maybe after the High Boy question is settled. :wink:
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I not sure I understand the ruling structure? Who should I contact for a fursure answer? Thanks! Jim #-o :)
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...As you know, I ran in these classes for a number of years and set numerious records..
I think that with the so called "new generation" of block combinations and such in the GM and Ford production models, there needs to be an addition or change / up date to the rules to controll this.
no one cared before 10 or so years ago if you ran a aluminum block in a production car ( chevy 350)...
but today, a "current" chevy 350 block is totally different...
it all boils down to this...
either more classes,......we all-lllready have "classic"....
or more rules to controll the engine configuration.heads / blocks/ etc....
this may get to be as GOOFY like the BIKE ENGINE RULES ARE....????or !!!!
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JACK knows all about this...
......and so do I...
a BUICK V-6 came with a production block....some referred to it as a "stage I block / heads "...
but most ALL records were set with a STAGE II block that actually had additional head bolt bosses / threads / holes etc....
the records are in the book.
same with the Ford...
winsor 351 block and the cleveland block...
or regular 2 bolt main 302 / 289 block and the BOSS 302 trans am block...
the records are in the book.
these statements have NO sour grapes in them...
I lived in it..
I may have caused some of it...
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Jack; The production rules for pickups and sports cars are different than coups and sedans. I forgot that part. Reading the rules is fun.
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Rich --
I believe engine swaps are allowed in Street Roadster (or else most would be running Flathead Fours and V-8's).
Stan
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Stan; Since there is no "Production Street Roadster" class, I am sure engine swaps are allowed. Same thing with AA/BFS