Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: azgearhed on May 09, 2019, 12:15:52 AM
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Is ERC being replaced at Speedweek 2019?
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That would cause a bunch of distress, VP offers some highly oxygenated gasolines that could affect gas class records. It would also be convenient for those far away from ERC suppliers, while VP is everywhere.
What makes you think ERC is leaving? Not doubting, just curious.
Dean
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I'd guess that the questionable fuels would not pass the gas check in Gas classes. If they were being offered there, they could be used in Fuel.
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I would welcome VP. Or not have event fuel since gas testing is fairly simple ,like at El Mirage
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ERC also has oxygenated fuel but if it doesn't meet spec it can't be run. Most likely a moot point since it does look like VP is the new supplier for the SCTA.
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Wondering if the new supplier will also have racing oil available like the ERC vendor did.
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Highly oxygenated and non-oxygenated gasolines were compared on the dyno for several years. We spent a lot of time to select the optimum spark advance settings and jetting for each mixture. The oxygenated fuels provided no benefits. Is there a reason for this?
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I got a call from ERC today and Rick said that he thought that SCTA was going to make a Supplier change. He did not volunteer what that change might be and I didn't ask.
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I would welcome VP. Or not have event fuel since gas testing is fairly simple ,like at El Mirage
It may be fairly simple to test fuel at El Mirage but buying fuel at El Mirage is almost impossible. That's why an event fuel supplier is so important, it guarantees race fuel availability on the salt.
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Highly oxygenated and non-oxygenated gasolines were compared on the dyno for several years. We spent a lot of time to select the optimum spark advance settings and jetting for each mixture. The oxygenated fuels provided no benefits. Is there a reason for this?
Well, I really don't know why you have seen that. But, this is what I really do know.
I often use my Nitrous Hayabusa for fuel test. It has a relatively low static compression, but has a LOT of engine modifications. I've tested the following VP fuels C12, C16, Q16, MRX02, MR12 over a couple days along with 89 octane pump (8% ethanol) and pump E85 (80% ethanol), PLUS Ignite Race Fuel 114 (90%) ethanol. For reference, the bike makes ~185 wHP on 89 Pump.
The non-oxygenated fuels produce less power while MR12 will pickup almost 10 wHP over pump with MRX02 in a close second. Ignite Race Fuel is also very close with a timing bump. Fueling has to be adjusted as much as +10% with oxygenated gasolines and while I did adjust timing, it really didn't make a HUGE difference except with Ignite. And of course the ethanol based fuels require about 30% more fuel.
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Right now I am in Visalia, California and my fuel comparison notes are back in Oregon. So, I cannot give details. All comparisons were between leaded and non-leaded oxygenated and non-oxygenated race gasolines. Octane, specific gravity, and distillation characteristics were chosen so all fuels would match the engine. Pump gas and E-85 were not tested.
Maybe what I saw was that a variety of gasolines will give good results?
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It could be that your octane requirements are high. My other race bike, a 1340 Busa, has a static compression of ~17:1 and wont' run on a lot of the highly oxygenated race fuels that make the most power. Q16 is about it and that VP fuel only makes a handful of HP over C12. I can run that bike on Ignite (E90) but that puts the bike in the Fuel classes in direct competition with my Nitrous bike....
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I don't recall what designation ERC gives their high octane gasoline that they've brought to Bonneville in the past, but I do remember that the closest equivalent in VP was the C-14, which is what we use to dyno with. ERC is tough to come by in the east.
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Well as we all know... your results may vary :-o
You can use gas with a too high octane rating and get less power... Consulting with ERC Rick, he suggested 110K for my 1K GSXR motor... and we did well with that... but then he brought MUL-A and later MUL-B 100 octane oxygenated legal racing gas and suggested we try that based on our engine specs. Bike went faster and I started using it in that normally aspirated motor in the car and bike, did not get the opportunity to make a dyno comparison since ERC fuel is not readily available in Kansas.
Rick was a valuable asset for racers.... I hate to see him go... :cheers:
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:cheers: :cheers:
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Will Rick and ERC be at the WOS?
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I don't recall what designation ERC gives their high octane gasoline that they've brought to Bonneville in the past, but I do remember that the closest equivalent in VP was the C-14, which is what we use to dyno with. ERC is tough to come by in the east.
Well, my memory was that it was not "hard to get", it was just "prohibitively expensive".
I recall that you used ERC A-19A on the salt in 2014. Further, the octane rating and specific gravity match up well, as my memory serves . . . . .
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm
https://vpracingfuels.com/master-fuel-table/
:cheers:
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Highly oxygenated and non-oxygenated gasolines were compared on the dyno for several years. We spent a lot of time to select the optimum spark advance settings and jetting for each mixture. The oxygenated fuels provided no benefits. Is there a reason for this?
Well, I really don't know why you have seen that. But, this is what I really do know.
I often use my Nitrous Hayabusa for fuel test. It has a relatively low static compression, but has a LOT of engine modifications. I've tested the following VP fuels C12, C16, Q16, MRX02, MR12 over a couple days along with 89 octane pump (8% ethanol) and pump E85 (80% ethanol), PLUS Ignite Race Fuel 114 (90%) ethanol. For reference, the bike makes ~185 wHP on 89 Pump.
The non-oxygenated fuels produce less power while MR12 will pickup almost 10 wHP over pump with MRX02 in a close second. Ignite Race Fuel is also very close with a timing bump. Fueling has to be adjusted as much as +10% with oxygenated gasolines and while I did adjust timing, it really didn't make a HUGE difference except with Ignite. And of course the ethanol based fuels require about 30% more fuel.
x2!
This is my opinion, based on my experiences. YMMV, so, for what it's worth . . . . .
I have supervised many fuel comparison dyno tests. Often, it is difficult to perform a direct 'A' Vs 'B' test, for various reasons, but fuel "chemistry" is usually the reason.
A/ It is unusual to gain power by changing the fuel hose from one container to another, unless, the fuels are quite "different", or, one fuel has some sort of "power additive" . . . and that is NOT a valid 'A' Vs 'B' test
2/ Very different fuel chemistry is going to require a serious change to the "tune specs". S/plugs, timing, fuel amount, injection timing, etc, etc. You give away "potential power" if this is not explored on the dyno.
d/ Even straight "hydrocarbon" gasolines can vary greatly by "properties". Use only enough octane rating as your engine requires. More is just a waste of your budget, and the fuel's potential. MIGHT cost you power.
z/ Be prepared to supply a knowledgeable fuel engineer your engine specs. The answer: "I don't know." to their questions, earns you their pity, or scorn, depending on your attitude . . . . .
AGAIN, this is a complex interaction, and deserves to be "thoroughly" tested, on the engine dyno, where conditions can be closely monitored.
Your mileage might vary, based on how thoroughly you test.
If you don't think a dyno testing budget is worthwhile and you decide to "skip it", it can be done successfully, BUT, it is rare to get a "good result" without engine damage . . . . You have my best wishes for success. I also suggest that you speak with a member of this forum who has done it "both ways", to see what they think. You already have my opinion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
Dynotestboy
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Just wanted to share an anecdotal early gasoline change story.
Early 60s, US Army road convoy from Fort Carson, CO to Camp Irwin, CA to play war games for 2 months.
We had helicopters so a bunch of avgas to dispense along the way!
The 3/4 ton trucks could barely get up some of the high grades without going down several gears and crawling.
They would run out fuel before the scheduled fuel stops so we would top them off with avgas and the drivers would tell us they could use higher gears.
So we started to fill them completely with avgas and with a little timing bump they could climb the grades in high gear. :cheers:
Of course we had to put all new exhaust valves in at Camp Irwin and caught holy hell for it! :cry: :cry:
BTW: The motor pool Jeep with a milled head and an extra carb really liked the avgas! :-D :evil:
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Any update on this rumor? VP makes about a hundred different fuels, of course not all would be appropriate for LSR and they surely wouldn't bring them all anyway. Opinions (or better) if the rules will be the same: anything they have on the truck is fair game to use? As has been mentioned, would like to dyno with what might be available at the track.
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This is an elaboration on Reply 6. All of the oxygenated gasolines tested had one thing in common. The oxygen came from added ethanol. The bike has big carbs and it breathes well.
The issue with the oxygenated gasolines not producing power might be linked to intake charge density. The ethanol enhanced gasolines might be flashing off earlier and reducing the density of the intake charge as compared to the unoxygenated gasolines. The less dense intake gas means reduced power and this offsets the added oxygen content.
Is there some way I can verify if what I think is happening is true? Right now it is a best guess on my part.
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OK, so, will VP fuel be available at World of Speed this year?
John
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I emailed the SCTA today, and VP gasolines are being tested for use at Bonneville this year. VP will also have alcohol, nitro, and diesel.
So - it's clear that not all of gas blends will be available - I'm GUESSING the highly oxygenated ones won't be available for gas classes. Maybe they are testing them with the dielectric meter and making comparisons. Again, I'm guessing here.
Probably they will release the info with enough time for people to get their tunes tweaked before racing starts (should we be so lucky).
Dean
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Thanks for (trying) to get some clarification, Dean, instead of all of us just wondering and being mystified.
I'm not sure I interpreted your comments right. Do you mean that SCTA is testing the VP fuels before the event so they'll have data? Or do you mean that they're going to best testing VP as vendor at the salt this year?
I would expect that a new fuel vendor would bring an assortment of fuels that are legal for gas classes, just like ERC did, and some fuels that will have to run in fuel class. But I'll be surprised if a new vendor brings a vast array of fuels that won't pass inspection but a racer might want to buy to take home. Some, maybe, but not too much. That "extra" stuff all takes up space in the truck/trailer, yanno...
We'll see. After all, it IS STILL May
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Last day of May!
VP is the new supplier. The SCTA is now testing gas blends to decide which to allow for gas classes.
I too will miss Rick Gold, I'm guessing he did this for love not money. But I think this makes some sense logistically.
Dean
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I hope C16 qualifies.
John
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I hope C16 qualifies.
John
Me too
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Last day of May!
VP is the new supplier. The SCTA is now testing gas blends to decide which to allow for gas classes.
I too will miss Rick Gold, I'm guessing he did this for love not money. But I think this makes some sense logistically.
Dean
2 years of rainouts probably didnt help Rick
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VP fuel list on SCTA site.
Attn: Racers
VP Racing Fuels is the Official Event Fuel for the 2019 SCTA Bonneville
Sanctioned Events such as Speed Week & World Finals. The fuels below
are very comparable to previous event fuels and have been tested &
comply with our requirements.
C16
C14
HP100
VP110
TORQ Dx Diesel
Alcohol
Nitro
Thank you,
Bill Lattin ? SCTA President
Pat McDowell ? BNI Chairman
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VP fuel list on SCTA site.
Attn: Racers
VP Racing Fuels is the Official Event Fuel for the 2019 SCTA Bonneville
Sanctioned Events such as Speed Week & World Finals. The fuels below
are very comparable to previous event fuels and have been tested &
comply with our requirements.
C16
C14
HP100
VP110
TORQ Dx Diesel
Alcohol
Nitro
Thank you,
Bill Lattin ? SCTA President
Pat McDowell ? BNI Chairman
Thats good to know but will the vendor also have racing oil available anyone know?