Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials Rules Questions => Topic started by: Doc B. on April 19, 2019, 03:50:58 PM
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Just looked over section 2F in the AMA supplementals -
"alcohol, methanol, ethanol, nitrous oxide,
nitro-methane, hydrogen, diesel and any gasoline not purchased
from the meet-approved gasoline vendor."
No propane listed, but hydrogen is OK? Has someone actually run a land speed bike on hydrogen? Google struck out for me on that search. Is the omission of propane maybe just because no one has run propane before?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/cICRRoIZ9YgjqlHAUt/giphy.gif)
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Ford ran a hydrogen-powered car about 10 years ago- it had a fuel cell. It was exiled to the furthest point of the pit area.
Oh, the humanity!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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2007: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2996.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2996.0.html) 207.279 mph :cheers:
Mike
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Thanks guys, I did find some info about hydrogen powered land speed cars. It wasn't very clear from my post, but I'm really more curious as to why propane is not included in the allowable fuels at BMST. My hunch is that it's simply because no one ever tried to run it.
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Thanks guys, I did find some info about hydrogen powered land speed cars. It wasn't very clear from my post, but I'm really more curious as to why propane is not included in the allowable fuels at BMST. My hunch is that it's simply because no one ever tried to run it.
probably because of low BTUs per pound or unit volume
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Thanks guys, I did find some info about hydrogen powered land speed cars. It wasn't very clear from my post, but I'm really more curious as to why propane is not included in the allowable fuels at BMST. My hunch is that it's simply because no one ever tried to run it.
probably because of low BTUs per pound or unit volume
BTUs/lb of propane is much higher than methanol, so that can't be right.
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Ford ran a hydrogen-powered car about 10 years ago- it had a fuel cell. It was exiled to the furthest point of the pit area.
Oh, the humanity!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
VBB-2 anyone? 303.025 mph in 2009.
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Propane injection seems fairly popular on diesel engines. The octane is relatively high, storage pressure is relatively low compared to nitrous or hydrogen. I ran generators on it in the 80s in an area where the fire marshall would not allow gasoline but did allow propane. Can't really see what might disqualify it. I guess somebody needs to submit a change to the rule book...
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Did the Blue Flame use some sort of gaseous fuel?
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The Blue Flame used LNG, liquefied natural gas (methane) as the fuel, combined with 95% hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer. LNG is used for efficiently transporting natural gas in ships, etcetera, but rarely as a fuel in vehicles. Natural gas, however, has often been used for fleet vehicles on the road.
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We use compressed natural gas in my 'liner. Ran 380 at of WOS last year. Shooting for 400 this year.
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Doc B,
1. Are you proposing to race a motorcycle at BMST using Propane?
2. Suggestions for BMST rules changes should be submitted in late Fall or early Winter.
Lastly, I'm always amused when a BMST motorcycle related question is asked,
and responses immediately veer off course into the car world. :-)
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The 2019 wording is posted on the BMST site and reads:
"2. F. FUELS Acceptable fuels include alcohol, methanol, ethanol, nitrous oxide, nitro-methane, hydrogen, diesel and any. Violation of this fuels section is grounds for disqualification."
What needs clarification is the first sentence, which appears unfinished with "…. diesel and any."
Why is a Brit interested? Because at the Straightliners/UKTA events held in Britain, we allow bike racers who have been to or are going to BMST to run on our airfield and beach tracks with machines built to the AMA Bonneville rules.
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Oops, I guess that rule section slipped through the rulebook editor. The 2018 rulebook reads:
"Acceptable fuels include alcohol, methanol, ethanol, nitrous oxide, nitro-methane, hydrogen, diesel and any gasoline not purchased from the meet-approved gasoline vendor. Violation of this fuels section is grounds for disqualification.
My guess is that since this is a typo, the officials will revert back to the 2018 rules rather than allow you to use "any...".
Don
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Damn, guys, I saw that typo too and was gonna try to use it to my advantage! Thanks for responding, Drew. My plan was to run gas with nitrous oxide and propane injection. I will indeed submit a suggested rule change for 2020 after this year's event. Meantime I'll figure what to do for this season. Guess it's time to start generating hydrogen gas and storing it. What could possibly go wrong? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsos9xFwGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsos9xFwGw)
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I think I heard an "Oh, that's not good" just before the bang....
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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2. F. FUELS
Acceptable fuels include alcohol, methanol, ethanol, nitrous oxide, nitro-methane, hydrogen, diesel, gasoline. Violation of this fuels section is grounds for disqualification.
2.G. GASOLINE
A meet-approved vendor provides gasoline for purchase. The vendor will seal the tank after filling. If you chose not to purchase gasoline from the meet approved vendor, you will be required to run in the fuel class. Refueling shall take place in the designated area and tank re-sealed by an event official. Refueling shall only take place under the supervision of an event official.
Not allowed is the addition of power additives/altering agents. Allowed is the addition of engine lubrication to gasoline. When done, it must be in the presence of the event gasoline vendor or a scrutineer. The vendor will seal the tank after filling. Violation of this section will result in disqualification.
If nitrous oxide bottles are installed, you must run in fuel class. To be permitted to run in gas class, bottles, lines and solenoids shall be removed. Injectors shall be removed or capped.
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Hydrogen...and an interesting memory. With the smallest atom in the universe, hydrogen is tricky to store because it has to leak. About 15 years ago I was asked to look at a strange engine problem, where a particular production engine was running on hydrogen (where the hydrogen is held in a molecular bond and "freed" from the storage tank with heat).
This was a four valve per cylinder engine and the forward intake valve on #2 or #3 cylinder would develop a clean crack on the upper edge of that valve. No other valves were ever affected, not even in the same cylinder.
There were enough cases to realize "this is a real deal"! (I remember a conversation about "how to order 100 long-blocks", and the whole project dropped off my radar.)
Never figured it out......not a clue. Somehow, I find it comforting to know there are real mysteries in this world that maybe we aren't supposed to understand. :cheers:
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Sounds like hydrogen embrittlement, maybe?
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Sounds like hydrogen embrittlement, maybe?
Can that happen without the metal becoming molten? I don't know but it is an interesting theory. :? :? :?
Pete
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Jack,
Yes hydrogen embrittlement can occur even if a metal is solid at high pressure or stress.
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Example: chrome plating 4130 chrome-moly is a bad idea because of H2 embrittlement,,,,,polish and then clearcoat is the best way to "eyecandy" 4130 parts.
Robert "Smitty" Smith
Red Baron LSR
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Sounds like hydrogen embrittlement, maybe?
Can that happen without the metal becoming molten? I don't know but it is an interesting theory. :? :? :?
Pete
Brain fade. I knew chrome plating 4130 tubing could cause hydrogen embrittlement but my failing mind didn't connect the dots.
This site is amazing for the knowledge it imparts. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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As Dan Warner likes to say, "don't read into the rule book stuff that isn't there" or words like that. The rule says "Acceptable fuels INCLUDE..." Doesn't say "exclude" anything. However an inspector may say otherwise. Anyway, I am pretty sure there is a precedent for propane. This article doesn't specifically say he used it at Bonneville but Ak Miller did use propane and the article is a good read about his life and history and at least suggests his use at the salt: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0606-ak-miller-history-best-hot-rodder/
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Functionally there is plenty of precedent for blowing propane with nitrous rather than gas. And good technical reasons to do so - runs cooler, mixes better, high octane, ease of installation, easy to acquire inexpensive pre-packaged fuel cartridges (torch cylinders). However BMST officials were kind enough to email me directly to let me know that propane would not be allowed this year.
"Propane might fall into "other propulsion" which we don't run at the BMST. A submitted rule change regarding propane would not pass the commission."
It's no biggie, my nitrous will just blow with gasoline this year. I get the notion of "if it's not in the rule book". If it's safety wire vs. a hose clamp or a fender that needs to be trimmed it's maybe worth the risk of being told no. But I decided it would suck to roll into impound and be told "your entire fuel system needs to be changed out in order to run". Particularly after officials already notified me directly as well as by Drew's post in this thread that propane won't fly at BMST. I'll just have to keep working on that hydrogen fusion powered bike for next year. What color hat will they choose for riders that achieve light speed? Blue on the front and red on the back, of course.