Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: racergeo on April 16, 2019, 10:14:09 PM
-
Anyone in the NW that has a roadster that meets the regs for C/AIR that needs an engine. I would consider teaming up for my 370 c.i. BBC. It is a 3.1 billet crank piece. I have the heads ,intake, carby and all parts to make it a "contender". Or if you want to build a car I can provide engine, trans. and diff. Bill Gates, call me, you have my number :lol:
-
I have a gas roadster that would work. it has run a big block chevy before at world of speed in 2012.
Richard McFarland
208 452 3449
western Idaho
-
Ah... sounds like a match made in heaven.... or at least on Landracing.com :cheers:
-
I'm a thinkin' that a team with a member named "Bill Gates" might the only way to give competition to the Mariani's, Beck, or Stringfellow. :roll:
-
Oh well, there's always "havin' fun"!
-
A few years back, George kicked ass on a lot of High dollar Alcohol Dragsters... so don't count Him out yet................
"One Run", out............................................................... :cheers:
-
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I just had a nice talk with Richard about his car and I think it might be a nice fit. I'm trying to get the fellow that bought my machine shop into a BV ride. I am drawn to the C/AIR class because of platform. My post about the C/AIR class indicates I'm not totally in love with the rules package, but can live with them. I turned Bill's money down cause it wouldn't be fair in a "budget" class. Marlo and Desoto Man are teamed up on a hemi powered roadster for the class and I want to give them a fair chance. :evil: I'll be happy just to have an excuse to get this engine in something. P.S my vidio is at 99777. Someone could go to "flat plane crank barn find" and give me a thumbs up and might be the one to get me to 100k. :-D
-
What rear axle does he have in it
-
It's not common knowledge, but you can just run SpeedWeek for the fun of it. The Compressed Air Roadster class has a lot of persnickety engine rules, but a lot of them can be overlooked until you get in Impound.
I've seen under-displacement cars run and now hearing about DeSoto, Edsel and others being entered โ kinda what the class was designed for years ago. As to them holding the record โ well, we'll see.
-
Sparky me boy, i knew you ask. 8 3/4 Mopar. Should be fine, but if any "drama" easy to switch to a Torsen. The car has gone over 200 with out spinning. I think my parts can do the job, but time will tell. The biggest problem will be event gas for the dyno :-P
-
ERC will ship you fuel. I have done it. Call and ask.
-
Ask Sparky about that. :cry:
-
I'd like to hear somebody who really knows (like if FordBoy would chip in) as to far off, when you're starting from scratch, "this" 110 octane racing gas is from the "other" 110 racing gas. Like the dyno ain't at Bonneville altitude anyway.
-
Ya me too. As Sparky's engine has been waiting at the dyno for 2 months. I think Dyno Room should comment :cheers:
-
Ya me too. As Sparky's engine has been waiting at the dyno for 2 months. I think Dyno Room should comment :cheers:
I wasn't going to get involved but I guess I can give my opinion, & remember, you get what you pay for here.
I have tested my engines on ERC, VP, Union 76, Trick, Sunoco, & Cam2. At least these are the ones I recall. None of the info here is derived from proper A B A test so it's just my observations.
All of the above vendors make or for those who are no longer around made a 110 octane race gasoline. So my input is related to these fuels.
I think it's important to mention here that most "hard chargers" running at Bonneville are using a compression ratio that the 110 octane fuel would not be appropriate, conversely, using 118 octane on a 13.0:1 engine on the salt is likely a waste of performance potential along with a corresponding loss of dollars.
First, if you tune on the engine or chassis dyno to make the absolute best power you can then load it in the box & head to the salt you are likely in for disappointment. This is assuming carbureted, as EFI will help compensate for the density & altitude. That being said, the ERC 110 I've tested didn't lose any power to the VP or Union on the same engine +\- 3 hp on a 800 hp engine. This is within the area of error on an engine at this power level. If I had to choose the Union fuel had a bit of an advantage. But since everyone who runs the gasoline class MUST run the same fuel vendor I would tune to rich best power, then go to the salt and tune from there. Most guy forget that a 10 second pass on the engine dyno is not the same a a 1 minute 20 second pass at wide open throttle on the salt. And for those who say just pull the handle & count to 90 I say go ahead. You will likely find the weak link in your cooling tower or boil the water in the brake. What I mean to say is sure, test your stuff before you go the the event but don't show up on kill. I have tested on Cam2 & gone to the salt due to time issues and after a pass to the 3 with a conservative tune running the event fuel the customer set the record in his class... even got into the 200 MPH club.
So while I would prefer to tune on the fuel we must run on the salt you can get very close with a high quality fuel vendor.
I would add the oxygenated fuels (racing unleaded) can add a few percent to the power output but my experience has shown a much more narrow tuning window.
Now that I have gone way out of my comfort zone I hope Harold & Fordboy will tell us all where I'm wrong...
-
Ya me too. As Sparky's engine has been waiting at the dyno for 2 months. I think Dyno Room should comment :cheers:
I wasn't going to get involved but I guess I can give my opinion, & remember, you get what you pay for here.
I have tested my engines on ERC, VP, Union 76, Trick, Sunoco, & Cam2. At least these are the ones I recall. None of the info here is derived from proper A B A test so it's just my observations.
All of the above vendors make or for those who are no longer around made a 110 octane race gasoline. So my input is related to these fuels.
I think it's important to mention here that most "hard chargers" running at Bonneville are using a compression ratio that the 110 octane fuel would not be appropriate, conversely, using 118 octane on a 13.0:1 engine on the salt is likely a waste of performance potential along with a corresponding loss of dollars.
First, if you tune on the engine or chassis dyno to make the absolute best power you can then load it in the box & head to the salt you are likely in for disappointment. This is assuming carbureted, as EFI will help compensate for the density & altitude. That being said, the ERC 110 I've tested didn't lose any power to the VP or Union on the same engine +\- 3 hp on a 800 hp engine. This is within the area of error on an engine at this power level. If I had to choose the Union fuel had a bit of an advantage. But since everyone who runs the gasoline class MUST run the same fuel vendor I would tune to rich best power, then go to the salt and tune from there. Most guy forget that a 10 second pass on the engine dyno is not the same a a 1 minute 20 second pass at wide open throttle on the salt. And for those who say just pull the handle & count to 90 I say go ahead. You will likely find the weak link in your cooling tower or boil the water in the brake. What I mean to say is sure, test your stuff before you go the the event but don't show up on kill. I have tested on Cam2 & gone to the salt due to time issues and after a pass to the 3 with a conservative tune running the event fuel the customer set the record in his class... even got into the 200 MPH club.
So while I would prefer to tune on the fuel we must run on the salt you can get very close with a high quality fuel vendor.
I would add the oxygenated fuels (racing unleaded) can add a few percent to the power output but my experience has shown a much more narrow tuning window.
Now that I have gone way out of my comfort zone I hope Harold & Fordboy will tell us all where I'm wrong...
Well . . . . OK then. My experience with fuels varies, and I am NOT a chemist or a fuel/gasoline engineer. BUT, I do have a lot of dyno test experience, some of which included A vs B vs A fuel testing. Disclaimer, this is my opinion, based on my experience. Feel free to add your experiential 2ยข or better yet, your data . . . . . . Feel free also to correct my terminology with respect to fuels and/or fuel chemistry
Fuels brands I have tested and used: VP, Sunoco, Cam2, ERC, Union 76. I tend to recommend the use of what is regionally available. In the "midwest", VP. On the east coast, Sunoco. I don't do much on the west coast anymore. Of course I use ERC at Bonneville.
Some random thoughts:
A/ Octane rating is the basis for "knock resistance" compared to other fuel mixtures. But it is not the only important fuel rating . . . . .
2/ Caloric value, ie specific heat released, since heat is work,
d/ Specific gravity,
q/ Burn rate, ie burn speed,
z/ Oxygen content, if any.
■ It is important to recognize that when the comparison parameters vary widely, you have performed an "apples Vs oranges" test . . . . . For instance, substituting an "oxygenated fuel" for a similar, but non-oxygen bearing fuel probably would show an "improvement".
■ In the testing I have done, when the fuels "match up" closely, there have been very small differences in power production. Say, less than 1%. These differences can usually be explained as variations, errors, OR, differences in
tune-up required. In a close match, precise "tune-up" makes more difference, say 1% to 2% or so.
■ Higher octane rating does not equal more bhp at the flywheel. Using higher octane than required is just a waste of finances.
■ Also, using a higher octane fuel than required temporarily, usually will not damage an engine. Using too low an octane rating definitely will damage an engine. Especially one tuned into the "kill" zone.
■ Some engines need a LOT of knock resistance. Others do not.
■ Knock resistance varies with operating temperature. The speed of chemical reactions speeds up with increasing temperature. And it might increase with increasing pressure . . . . . . . This is going to affect your tune.
■ I agree that the tuning window is smaller with oxygenated fuel. This does create a degree of peril for the inexperienced . . . . .
■ Spark plug types affect the length of the "spark path". This changes the ignition timing required. Ignore this at your own risk . . . . . This affects octane required.
■ We tried to get ERC fuel for dyno testing the "Grenade" during the Milwaukee Midget project. It was prohibitively expensive, so I made the decision to test using a close match from VP. Things worked out fine, due to experience.
■ I agree that a 10 second pull on the dyno does not replicate conditions during a 90 second 3 mile run. As Mike has pointed out, very few dyno installations can accommodate high bhp extended run testing. The typical facility
does not have the heat extraction capacity. This is expensive. Tune accordingly . . . . .
■ In spite of what folks might think, I am somewhat conservative about tune-up, for the very reasons Mike mentioned. It is also important to note that someone with a LOT of tuning experience, like Dynoroom, for
instance, would have a different skill level of tuning than someone else. Guys like that can "slice the cheese" pretty thinly and their idea of 2 steps away from "kill" might vary. I know mine does.
■ As a practical consideration, tuning "slightly" on the soft side tends to preserve parts and allows continued racing. "Stepping over the line", well, not so much . . . . .
■ And finally, as an example: The "Grenade" for the Milwaukee Midget was tested on the dyno to find the "kill zone". I crept up toward it with 90 second slow acceleration pulls. (Remember that it only made 100 bhp . . . ) It was
then backed off 2 steps. We went to Bonneville and corrected for density altitude, because it was carburated. I didn't guess right, I had enough experience to know which direction to go.
My thinking is that if you are looking to find power by changing the fuel hose from one jug to another, you are probably not doing all your "homework". You can probably find "something" by carefully tailoring your tune to what the engine really needs.
I submit this data for your perusal . . . . .
This is all "tuning". What the engine wanted, Vs the owner's "seat of the pants" track tuning. Fuel is VP 110
(https://live.staticflickr.com/850/29931257738_ffa71b1406_b.jpg)
A "more extreme" example. Again, ALL TUNING. Owner/builder's seat of the pants tune Vs what the engine wanted.
30+ bhp Stupidy Vs Science. Never bet against science . . . . . Fuel is VP 110
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4626/39892715281_316e07d595_h.jpg)
Same engine as above, port color check after dyno session. Safe mixture strength.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4621/38992904085_4bc3eb1a7f_h.jpg)
You don't check port color? Why not? It's a tuning parameter.
My advice:
A/ Do ALL your homework with regard to engine octane requirements. This includes talking to fuel engineers about the SPECIFICS of your engine . . . . .
2/ Dyno test thoroughly, and APPROPRIATELY!! Test various "tune-ups"!! TEST, don't guess.
d/ Learn to tune! OR, pay a good tuner to get your stuff worked out.
Yeah, I know that nobody wants to hear this, BUT, . . . . It's Complicated . . . . .
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
It'sComplicatedboy
-
Great info,we are a group that is 2 years in and on a complete learning curve with Kinsler mechanical.Has been a huge education and i haven't even touched the surface,fat,fat,fat and slow and we are ok with that at the moment :-D
-
I'm so glad I asked . . .
And so gratified that the two people I thought that would have believable answers and insight replied.
Our experience (15+ years ago) was no dyno. Got there, asked Rick Gold what gas we should have been running. 110. Okay. We had terrific engines that were record-holders in a different category. We always had healthy competition, but still did well reading our two go-kart pyrometers. Five records later was great โ paying attention to not blowing things up.
Now is a different time. Our old records have been surpassed by 20+ mph. Time marches on. Technology has, too. But, the answer to my question was what I hoped it to be. 110 in Kansas is basically 110 in Utah. And the climate changes will probably effect greater changes than the difference in brand names (or at least that's what I got out of the responses).
You're probably not going to get a record on the first two runs (done that!), so play it a little safe and work up to it. You're going to hafta use what is supplied, so live with it. And you can take that (or not) from someone who doesn't know shitt about engines.
Stan
-
RE: Tuning and Testing before heading to the Great White Dyno :-o
Howdy All that are interested in this kind of stuff, :-D
Points already stated are sensible and worthy of consideration and thought I would toss in my own comments. :wink:
Ideally, one would test on the same dyno and using the same fuel and carry the same dyno out on the salt to make a comparison to whatever baseline had been established. IF in the baseline testing it had been established the RBT (rich best torque) and LBT (lean best torque) AND MBT (minimum spark advance for best torque). However, realism must prevail. :roll: MOST folks do not test nor tune on the dyno as they will race either at Bonneville or wherever. :-o SO, some sensible advice from an old guy that has no skin in the game of spending someone else's money (I will leave that to the politicos in DC or your individual state houses).
Approach the problem CONSERVATIVELY. Run the thing on the rich side and try not to squeeze it like there is no tomorrow OR you very likely will not be there past Wednesday! :cry:
Momma Nature has given a bit of a safety net for tuners coming from much lower elevations (in general lower than 2000ft MSL) than Bonneville (4200ft MSL) so if you tested down low and went for max power results, it will be a bit rich when you kick it off the trailer at Bonneville. UNLESS you or crew decision was to ADJUST the mixture to an assumed leaner beginning.....That is not being very conservative.
Take some time to LEARN about the specific effects of atmospheric changes and that will pay off very good dividends. :cheers:
Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Gotta go put the chickens to bed and put up the goats. :dhorse:
Best Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
-
An update. Richard is going to bring his roadster over to Olympia when I get the Engine finished. I just found the heads I needed for the build. This engine was going to be for my lakester until I came to the conclusion that BBC engines were just to large to use. I am just excited to find a use for something that has just been "sitting around". Will be fun to see if it works out as planned.