Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: racergeo on July 22, 2018, 02:27:07 AM
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Go to "Unbelievable Flat Crank Barn Find SB Chevy From 1959". It recounts my discovery of this engine years ago when there were only a few thousand race items for sale on E bay. I was the only person that contacted him as his dad, who had pasted away never really explained the engine to him.I was curious about his statement that his dad raced at Oswego Motor speedway with this one of a kind engine. I had him describe the crank with the strange brass plates. He was no car guy but I suspected that it was a 180 deg. crank from reading about Smokey's Indy stuff. I did nothing till the Voodoo engine Ford developed gained interest. I hope to put it in a 65 El Camino that is a stick so it can run the heavy flywheel that helps smooth it out. It actually has very little vibration thanks to a very light piston and rod assembly. It was a lot of fun to finely hear it run after all these years.I kept the whole build old school so the result would be realistic.
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Hi George,
Cool project. IMO leave it as is but add the injector.
Keep up the good work,
Tom G.
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Cool engine.
I had a 302 Cleveland in Aus back in the early 80's with a flat crank. It was built by Stan Sainty for a boat but the customer died before it was finished. The cam & fuel injection was also Aussie built by Hedly McGee. I ran it in my 5 liter hydro for a season before selling the boat & it out ran all the Chevy's.
Here's your video.
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUD9ynr6zBs
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Didn't SESCO build flat crank Chevy V8's?
John
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When I was doing research to find out if there had ever been other flat crank builds, Sesco came up. I think there deal was a crank that converted a Chev V8 to a 4 cyld. for use in midgets. My engine predates those and Smokey's by many years.
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The 3 liter V8 Cosworth DFV had a flat crank. The its first test in a Gulf Mirage, the engine vibration shook the needles off the gauges in the car's instrument panel.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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George,
A person who built a flat crank V8 at least 10 years before your engine was Barney Navarro. In the late 40's he built a destroked flathead for his lakes roadster with a 180 crankshaft. As I recall him telling me, he borrowed Norden's crankshaft patterns and made it so he would be able to finish grind a destroked crankshaft and as I recall it was for a motor that was around 180 cubic inches.
That is what I remember him telling me when we were working on the Hi Dome heads and the 4-71 blower manifold, back in the early to mid 80's.
Tom G.
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The only other V8 flat crank I had ever seen was for a 392 that Al Teague ran in Betsy way back when she was a lakester & turbo'd.
Back about 1989 we were cleaning out the storage container where Al had more 92 stuff than I had ever seen in one place before when I pulled the flat crank out of the crank stack & said, Al! whats with the 180 crank? He looked at me & said, so you know what that is?
He retired the 92's & went to the KB the year before I arrived.
Sid.
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Current Yamaha motorcycles in two cylinder, three cylinder and four cylinder are flat cranks. The twin does well in flat track racing, the four cylinder is successful in road racing. Nothing new in the ic world, just refinement. LSL
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Thanks for comments and interest. My research was strictly on the SB Chevy. I even called the track where this engine supposedly ran and they turned me on to the track champion in the early 60's who didn't remember it.Crank was ground under size and pistons worn so it ran for awhile but it's anyone's guess. First cranks were all flat plane. Ease of manufacturing. Tom, I looked into the F.I. but cost prohibitive to restore. I'll just keep it in bed with me. I'll do my BBC next.
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I think Gary Beck did some experimenting in Top Fuel drag racing in 77-78. No success and gave it up. I did find this one, though. Great sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIxngbwE8jg
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Gale Banks tried a turbocharged flat crank engine in Top Fuel. Couldn't get traction. Not long after that NHRA banned turbos in TF. Al's association with Banks may have resulted in him acquiring the engine. The time line sounds correct as in about 1993 I was at a race in Mission Canada and I heard the most crazy sounding engine running in the TAD pits. I inquired as to what it was and they said it was a 180 crank engine that Banks tried to run in TF with a turbo. I have a Hot Rod that covers the effort in detail. It may have been Beck's dragster and that is why it ended up in the hands of a Canadian, as Beck was from Canada. By the way my research on the subject uncovered everything you are mentioning as I watched hours of YouTube explanations and recordings of flat fire cranks and 180 deg. headers etc. I'm just saying my SBC from the late 1950's is a early effort to unharness the potential of a 180 deg. crank in a Chev V8. I know it had been done by many others in many different forms. The guy put full counterweights on the crank and added weight with the brass plates all of which would have been an effort to smooth out the vibration prone design. The big thing is I finally got it together and running and won't go to my grave wondering what it might have run and sounded like. I am sure my effort to make the piston and rod assembly as light as I realistically could resulted in the engine running so smoothly with very little discernible vibration.
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I remember a sprint car with a flat crank V-8 at Ascot in the 70's. Made a real different sound, like two Offies.
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First one? :? :?
http://www.wright-brothers.org/Information_Desk/Just_the_Facts/Engines_&_Props/1903_Engine.htm
After the castings had been made the Wrights "mechanician," Charlie Taylor, machined the parts and assembled the engine. He later described his work:
"We didn’t make any drawings. One of us would sketch out the part we were talking about on a piece of scratch paper, and I’d spike the sketch over my bench. It took me six weeks to make that engine. The only metal-working machines we had were a lathe and a drill press, run by belts from the stationary gas engine.
"The crankshaft was made out of a block of machine steel 6 by 31 inches and 1-5/8 inch thick. I traced the outline on the slab, then drilled through with the drill press until I could knock out the surplus pieces with a hammer and chisel. Then I put it in the lathe and turned it down to size and smoothness.
"The body of the first engine was of cast aluminum and was bored out on the lathe for independent cylinders. The pistons were cast iron, and these were turned down and grooved for piston rings.
"The completed engine weighed 180 pounds and developed 12 horsepower at 1,025 revolutions per minute. [It actually produced nearly 16 hp when it was first started, by this dropped to 12 hp as the engine heated up.]"
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Somebody please school me on the supposed advantages attributed to the flat crank.
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Somebody please school me on the supposed advantages attributed to the flat crank.
Here you go Stan, advantages vs. disadvantages. Long strokes flat cranks are very hard on mains.
Tom G.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVG6TPNcaDY
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If you're not going to make SW I would appreciate a pre-entry. Thanks
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The advantage of firing 2 pistons at once is fewer , stronger pulses to the drive tires for a traction advantage . Like anti lock brake pulsing . Dirt track motorcycles realized long ago that singles cornered faster than twins . Lots of mechanical problems and misinformation on this .
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interesting thread
Repco engine developments ( in Australia ) made a flat plane crank for their F5000 engine
it was part of the Repco Holden F5000 project
( the engine was an Australian made 308 ci V8 , by the Australian devision of GM —- called GMH )
these engines made over 500 hp , but had the vibration issues that have been discussed
I came on the scene after they had been used ( 1973/4 ) so the stories are second hand
needles fell off the tacho , the fuel tanks were part of the monocoque chassis. ( befor bag tanks ) and the vibrations caused them to leak , the driver complained of his vision be blurred.
the were reported to sound Fablous @ full noise , and were only used in competition for a very short time ,may be only once .
Repco was known for some of their other projects —- Repco Brabham , powered Jack Brabham F1 cars
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I know that I have told this story before but it is worth another pass. Back in the late 70s sprint car racing at Ascot was pretty much "run what you brung"! No cu. inch limit, blowers were OK too. Well one team had a KB aluminum hemi of large proportions with a flat crank. It sounded great, but I was there one Saturday night when they were running. Drove it hard down into 3 and when he picked up the throttle there was a bang and then complete silence the car rolled to a stop after running over the crank with 8 rods and pistons laying on the ground! Hard on the mains is an understatement! It never returned as I remember.
Rex
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I know that I have told this story before but it is worth another pass. Back in the late 70s sprint car racing at Ascot was pretty much "run what you brung"! No cu. inch limit, blowers were OK too. Well one team had a KB aluminum hemi of large proportions with a flat crank. It sounded great, but I was there one Saturday night when they were running. Drove it hard down into 3 and when he picked up the throttle there was a bang and then complete silence the car rolled to a stop after running over the crank with 8 rods and pistons laying on the ground! Hard on the mains is an understatement! It never returned as I remember.
Rex
That's the one I remember, the sound was awesome.
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Rex me boy, I heard that car. Back in the day I knew of the original sprint car "outlaw" Jan Opperman from a sprint car publication I got. He won about every race he went to. He was so good they offered him an Indy ride. I think it was contingent on him cutting his hair :roll: He qualified and finished well as I remember. When my local dirt track brought him and a few CRA guys in for an "outlaw" against the locals race I went. The hemi car was about 5 octaves above all the other engines. It didn't go real fast but no one had heard of a hemi sprint car and it was quit novel. Opperman drove one of the locals cars and lapped the field. Afterwards he held kind of a religious revival for the fans that stayed to hear him. I had forgotten about that till reading your post. Was an honor to see such a gifted driver. Later I saw the hemi car at a CRA race on the old Ascot track in Cal. If I could come back as any kind of racer and have a supportive family and money and all the elements that make for success I would definitely choose "sprint car racer". :-)
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Unreal!!! On the "comments" of my YouTube Flat Plane video, several have doubted the claim I make that my engine was from the 50's. I just found the cam card (on an 81/2 by 11 sheet) that the fellow send me at my request so I could have the firing order etc. I will be make another video with a picture of it showing the date 4-15-58 and the manufacturers description CAM POSITIONS FOR 180* SINGLE PLANE C'SHAFT. Neener neener neener. Oh and it just hit 125,000 views and over 2 million minutes viewing. Wow
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The advantage of firing 2 pistons at once
Not how it works