Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Rex Schimmer on March 11, 2018, 08:41:57 PM
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Marlo and his guys are in Aussie land and getting ready to (hopefully) make some real noise. So let's all give our best guess (estimate, hope!) as to how fast they will go.
I am going to take 460+ mph. Don't think they can make the big 500 this time but they should be fast and a 460 should get them the wheel driven record.
Rex
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If they can keep the drivetrain glued together, that'll be the key.
460 should be a good baseline, and should be achievable, now that they have enough salt to not be worrying about what lies ahead.
My question is this. Gairdner's at ~125 above sea level. I think the T550 is pretty aero-smart, but will their engine management let them take advantage of the denser air, or might the air density hurt them at 460+?
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Yep, kind of a desperation move. Might still have some gremlins. Al and others couldn't replicate there 7500 corrected elevation speeds, but like beer dwarf says, it's plenty aero. Les told me that he just wants to go 500. I know "he ain't afraid". So if it don't break,and the tracks there and they don't get food poisoning or get stuck on the road gettin' out there or--or-- Put me down for 511. 8-)
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Last year, our 1968 Camaro, which had run 243+ in the last mile at Bonneville in 2012, ran 249+ TWICE in the middle mile at Lake Gairdner on Thursday. We had expected it to run less than 240, because of the higher air density at the Lake Gairdner vs Bonneville venue. The track was a little moist and loose on Tuesday, but after the rain on Wednesday, and high winds on Wednesday night, it really tightened up. We run a 600 cu in BBC that produces nearly 1000 hp on race gas. More often than not, we encounter some wheel-spin, but not on that Thursday. If you look at the MTOD video, you'll see two perfectly formed white roostertails of salt coming off the rear wheels. It was hooked up.
That salt was so good, there was not even a pressure-ridge that I could find on the racecourse. From all reports, it might be even better this year.
So, good luck Target 550. Betting on 480 if you avoid breaking.
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Logically you would expect slower NA cars to pick up some HP at Gairdner's altitude compared to B-ville but that becomes more drag when the speed comes up. At B-ville the tough number arrives at about 380 to 400 depending on the DA at the time so it is going to be at lower speed down there.
Target 550 is the same shape as Big Burther Herbert was & that had an extreme directional stability problem due to the vertical chisel nose shape creating a very forward CP & differential side forces. Target 550 appears to have at least 2500lb of lead ballast behind & in front of the front wheels so I expect they have already experienced those directional control problems.
As Al would say when somebody asked how fast he was going to go, "We'll see!"
Sid.
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T550 is still being sorted and none of the drivetrains issues have allowed true back-to-back runs without issue. She is a proverbial dinosaur in terms of technology but has insanely incredible potential. My guess will be a back-to-back run average of 422 mph and hopefully without anything breaking but there needs to be several test runs before that happens. Ultimately I see a one-way speed if everything goes good of 462mph at the end of the week and a return to Lake Gairdner in 2019. Given the two decades in her creation, she hasn't spent much time on the salt itself in actually running and has never made a true full-speed complete pass. I'd just like to see them make a single full-speed pass and the data that goes with it -- we will see her true potential only then.
Also remember if anyone finds pictures, commentary or more on T550 -- please post it to Freud's Facebook page so his daughter can keep him up-to-date on what happens and to keep him involved.
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From formulas I found in the past that deal with HP loss or gain on a NA motor due to changes in density altitude it is a wash with the changes in HP required to push a vehicle through denser or less dense air. More HP needed at lower altitudes to push the car through the air but the car picks up corresponding HP to manage the task, if tuned to take advantage of the denser air.
The catch is that the DA changes regardless of what we do but it is up to us to tune the car so that it achieves maximum HP at the new DA to keep up with it. That is hard to do with exact certainty. I always felt that we ran faster in the morning's cool denser air than later in the day but now pretty much feel that our tune was such that we were taking more advantage of the denser air than what we were of the less dense air later in the day. We weren't tuned optimally at either time, but closer in the morning.
Also this applies to a NA motor and can go out the window with a blown motor.
Sumner
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After a series of fiasco's we should be leaving Melbourne today for Gairdner. :roll:
Wayno
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I wouldn't worry about tune as Les Davenport is one of the the best blown alky tuners of ALL TIME. I'd worry about breakage when he starts applying that power. That being said, how much do I win if I'm closest Rex. :lol:
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That being said, how much do I win if I'm closest Rex. :lol:
The same amount they'll make for setting the record! :lol:
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What happened Wayno ?
Have a great time.
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George,
Quoting Dyno Mike: "The same amount they'll make for setting the record! "
Rex
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George,
Quoting Dyno Mike: "The same amount they'll make for setting the record! "
Rex
Aren't those negative numbers? :|
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AA/BFS is an open record.
Sid.
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Still a LARGE number of open records at Gairdner.
Even more surprisingly, a LOT of C and D class stuff still open.
Almost makes me want to screw together a small block.
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In regards the air density for hp v drag ,1 NA bike in particular running near 200mph at Gairdiner had around 15mph penalty at Bonneville
while us forced induction guys see it the other way around , but were going a little faster too
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From formulas I found in the past that deal with HP loss or gain on a NA motor due to changes in density altitude it is a wash with the changes in HP required to push a vehicle through denser or less dense air. More HP needed at lower altitudes to push the car through the air but the car picks up corresponding HP to manage the task, if tuned to take advantage of the denser air.
The catch is that the DA changes regardless of what we do but it is up to us to tune the car so that it achieves maximum HP at the new DA to keep up with it. That is hard to do with exact certainty. I always felt that we ran faster in the morning's cool denser air than later in the day but now pretty much feel that our tune was such that we were taking more advantage of the denser air than what we were of the less dense air later in the day. We weren't tuned optimally at either time, but closer in the morning.
Also this applies to a NA motor and can go out the window with a blown motor.
Sumner
I ran the same G/GL car at both Lake Gairdner and Bonneville in 1995. We consistently ran 10-13 mph faster at Gairdner than Bonneville (205 mph vs. 218 mph). I am sure some of this had to do with track surface differences but we did run much faster at Gairdner.
John
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Marlo 345
Valerie 328
Half day tomorrow for DLRA event
FIM starts Saturday runs through Monday
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My worst fear. Leave the car and Cory in Au. Rent a shed and have a couple of derros help him till it's right. Come back next year and with a little luck (and help from the derros) go fast. :-(
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Time to think out side the box. Too many smart people have made this car possible. Now for a suggestion from a certified idiot. Take the entire rear engine out of the car. Engine, tranny rear ballast if any. Get the car as light as possible. Retain the 4wd by way of same shaft system that connects current power plants together. Hire a NHRA TFD tuner, Like Alan Johnson perhaps.Use a top fuel clutch that he would be very familiar with. Now start off small, feeding the NITRO to it. With less weight, less chance of breakage, complete spare engine ready to go and more then enough power available with a Whipple on NITRO. Why do I think more then enough power. I have read many times that Tom Burkland's car was only at 40% throttle at 450 mph. It runs old Donovan's on alky and if memory serves were so mild of engines that the torque and power curve both peaked out at about 5250 rpm. Going to a 4 speed might be necessary but beyond that it should at least start going up in the BURKLAND SPEED RANGE WITH OUT ALL THE BREAKAGE. If there is any advantage to the Au. track it might get in the high 400's. Might not be 550, but at least it would be a wheel driven record. Smart people, jump in......
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Leave the car and Cory in Au. Rent a shed and have a couple of derros help him till it's right. Come back next year and with a little luck (and help from the derros) go fast. :-(
Might work, but the Aussie government may need to okay letting it stay put for that long.
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Time to think out side the box. Too many smart people have made this car possible. Now for a suggestion from a certified idiot. Take the entire rear engine out of the car. Engine, tranny rear ballast if any. Get the car as light as possible. Retain the 4wd by way of same shaft system that connects current power plants together. Hire a NHRA TFD tuner, Like Alan Johnson perhaps.Use a top fuel clutch that he would be very familiar with. Now start off small, feeding the NITRO to it. With less weight, less chance of breakage, complete spare engine ready to go and more then enough power available with a Whipple on NITRO. Why do I think more then enough power. I have read many times that Tom Burkland's car was only at 40% throttle at 450 mph. It runs old Donovan's on alky and if memory serves were so mild of engines that the torque and power curve both peaked out at about 5250 rpm. Going to a 4 speed might be necessary but beyond that it should at least start going up in the BURKLAND SPEED RANGE WITH OUT ALL THE BREAKAGE. If there is any advantage to the Au. track it might get in the high 400's. Might not be 550, but at least it would be a wheel driven record. Smart people, jump in......
George,
Don't jump the gun. Les Davenport is one of the most talented people when it comes to running Blown Alcohol IMO, and he currently tunes a Alcohol Funny Car that set the NHRA speed record at the NHRA World Finals in Pomona, CA. They are still working the bugs out, and stuff happens that you would never expect. It will all come together.
Keep the Faith,
Tom G.
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Tom, see my post #8. I know Les personally. His son Ryan was in my tow truck when I won the TAD championship in 93. Les helped me with tuneup on several occasions. He is a genius. Car is still too heavy. My concern is for Marlo. He's no youngster. If they had 5 more years to run in Australia and who knows how much money, Les would get it done.
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It is so sad to see this effort continue to have problems. Going to Australia was certainly not a cheap thing to do and I am positive that everyone of us were looking forward to good news from Aussie land. With a project that is as complex as this car it shows that "Testing, testing, and more testing" is required and even then every completed run is a gift. I hope that Marlo and Les have the determination to continue with their quest. What they want to do is not easy and they are sure proving that!
Rex
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So true Rex! Anybody that thinks it's easy to go fast in a liner has no concept.
Sid.
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Tom, see my post #8. I know Les personally. His son Ryan was in my tow truck when I won the TAD championship in 93. Les helped me with tuneup on several occasions. He is a genius. Car is still too heavy. My concern is for Marlo. He's no youngster. If they had 5 more years to run in Australia and who knows how much money, Les would get it done.
Hi George,
Yes we are on the same page regarding Les and Marlo, and I also worry about the age factor. They have run a blown alcohol motor for years and the combination has proven very reliable. IMO changing it up would put them back to square one and IMO Nitro is not the easiest fuel on motor and drivetrain parts.
Let us hope that Bonneville is in better shape this year for non suspended vehicles, so more runs can be made and more data recorded. That would help tremendously, IMHO.
Tom G.
PS. Good post Rex, and I agree Sid.
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Bub 7 crashes at 300 Valerie OK
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Target 550 , The rear clutch let go , the bellhousing moved back and rotated .
In about 2006 a liner was stored for a year at The National Motor Museum in nearby Adelaide , but that didn't achieve anything as the next meet was rained out .
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With inflation my $.02 ain't worth much, but here goes anyway.
Unlike Project 550, Speed Demon has suspension, a single engine and a turbocharger. Are there lessons to be learned here ???
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Are there lessons to be learned here ???
No, everyone has their own ideas and that is what makes Bonneville racing so great. If everyone had the same shape and drive-line in a car, can you say boring?
Besides for 8000 or so pounds this is not to shabby.
Tom G.
293 mph in the 1/4 on one motor!!!!!
http://www.target550.com/_images2018/arrived-D.JPG
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No, everyone has their own ideas and that is what makes Bonneville racing so great. If everyone had the same shape and drive-line in a car, can you say boring?
Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium. Seems to me, that a design change may be needed. A little suspension may, or may not cure the problem. No need to change the body shape, or the engine design or fuel, to add suspension.
For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.
Have a nice day :-)
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No, everyone has their own ideas and that is what makes Bonneville racing so great. If everyone had the same shape and drive-line in a car, can you say boring?
Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium. Seems to me, that a design change may be needed. A little suspension may, or may not cure the problem. No need to change the body shape, or the engine design or fuel, to add suspension.
For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.
Have a nice day :-)
Since you allude to know what their problem is maybe you should share with us your experience with racing streamliners?
Sid.
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It is possible to put a bike or car on a dyno and to simulate a full length race from what I read. That would allow testing in more controlled conditions.
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Is the drivetrain "married or divorced"
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It is possible to put a bike or car on a dyno and to simulate a full length race from what I read. That would allow testing in more controlled conditions.
I could see that to some degree but can't see how it will simulate wheel slippage and such, which is what might be breaking parts as the tires loose and gain traction and the associated shock loads. Suspension could help this if it helped keeping the tires hooked up, but I can't believe any suspension can react fast enough to eliminate that as you approach 300 and above. Traction control can also help this same situation to some degree.
To the comment about Tom Burkland running less than 50% throttle on his 400+ runs you have to remember that for the really fast cars the whole run is a drag race to the 5 mile or beyond if it is for a FIA record. Add weight for more traction and you are accelerating more weight which is going to effect the rate of acceleration. 1/4 mile guys try and make the car as light as possible usually. Loose weight and you accelerate faster but don't have the weight needed for traction at the higher speeds when the car hits the aero wall. Tom ran a lot of spreadsheets trying to balance the whole equation.
I have a spreadsheet here where you can see the weight needed on the drive wheels for any particular car....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html)
One way around this that some are exploring is movable wings that can apply more down-force as the car reaches higher speeds without the handicap of more weight in the car. Probably a good idea but one that has to be approached with caution as the faster the car goes the down-force goes up exponentially with the same wing angle. You then risk overloading the tires and they could blow. I'd think one would need a computer that would control the wing getting data from load sensors and wheel speed sensors to see loss of traction in real time.
Very few people have put down runs over 400 and there is a reason...it ain't easy. Remember all the parts George broke also? Going to more speeds in the transmission which reduced shock loading on the shifts helped them a lot. My guess is that with the use of the turbo and smaller motor they can dial in power needed more accurately which also is probably easier on the parts.
Just my opinion,
Sumner
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Watching the trials and tribulations of Target 550 makes me appreciate the successful efforts of the Brits in the late Thirties and Forties all the more, as well as other multi-engine 'liners (Summers Bros., Thompson father/son and Burkland come to mind). They all proved that it can be done.
I just hope Target 550 doesn't end up like the Herbert/Steen 'liner . . .
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Watching the trials and tribulations of Target 550 makes me appreciate the successful efforts of the Brits in the late Thirties and Forties all the more, as well as other multi-engine 'liners (Summers Bros., Thompson father/son and Burkland come to mind). They all proved that it can be done.
I just hope Target 550 doesn't end up like the Herbert/Steen 'liner . . .
Agreed but some of those records where just over 400. The HP needed to the ground really jumps over that.
Let's say that we have a car that needs 1800 HP to run 400. That same care will need almost 2600 HP to run 450, about what might be the case with Speed Demon and Tom's car that ran 450. Now to run 500 the same car needs to make 3500 HP. Not just make the HP but get it to the ground and get the car to the end of the track before running out of track. 5 or 7 miles can be an extremely short distance once you start running over 400. The jet thrust cars that have run well over 400 didn't have to address the traction side of the equation which is huge.
These guys are trying to make history under an extremely difficult situation.
Sumner
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Project 550 keeps breaking parts made of unbreakable unobtanium.
Hi Beef Stew,
Where did you hear the parts were made of unbreakable unobtanium? The tail shaft that broke was a stock B&J item. The blower that went out of time and went boom was factory Whipple timing. The ring and pinons are Aero Gear stocking items. Some different shafts had to be made to make them work. Dropping a valve, a fuel pump going south, and a clutch going out in Australia is just part of racing, no special parts there.
In racing there is no such thing as an unbreakable part, at least that I know of, that is why your statement confuses me. :?
For me, racing for records is about setting records. YMMV.
Again I am confused on your statement, why would they take the car to Australia if they had no intention of setting a record. :?
Have a nice day :-)
I will thanks.
Tom G.
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In re: Driver or parts reacting fast enough at speed. Sumner said: "...Traction control can also help this same situation to some degree."
Last SW when George Poteet ran the car down the course on that 453.876 exit run -- I was standing outside at the 3 mile and listening. The car sounded -- crappy. The engine was spitting, farting and seemed to miss a beat here and there and in general I wondered if it'd be going boom at any second.
Nah - that's what a whole bunch of MoTeC and other wondrous devices make the engine do so that the car can use everything possible to gain speed under the wide name of engine and traction and everything control. Looking at the time slip I'd say that "to some degree" might be an understate,ent here. :-)
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Turbos and preprogramed waste gates as traction control .
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Traction control can be real hard on motors, (may contribute to some of speed demons issues with motors in my opinion but hey it has to be done) The ign and fuel cutting in and out makes bad things happen. One of the reasons I dont' run mine. I have it in the system but don't give it any control. Instead I choose to use the wastegates to run a set plan for the run.
I think Target is just going through the new car blues. Compounded by conditions and a very heavy car with a lot of moving parts. As Willi said gives more appreciation for the early multiengine efforts. It remains to be seen what targets true potential may be. For me cost dictated nearly the entire plan for my effort. even the four wheel drive, I can't afford to shred tires the way speed demon and some of other cars do.
I wondered about the cost and effort of shipping a car that has struggled with breakage issues all the way down south. But hey if they aren't able to do what they want with bville conditions what choice was there. We all feel the time slipping by and for the big players the chance to be the "first" to 500 is a major factor.
They may have to change the name to target 400 though. Walk before you run...
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It is my opinion that there may have been a gentlemans agreement to run on the FIM Course .
With five and a half mile run up to the timed mile it certainly may have been easier on the drive train .
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Since you allude to know what their problem is maybe you should share with us your experience with racing streamliners?
Sid.
From reading Freud's reports it seems like they are breaking drive line parts.. Back in the 1960s I was involved with a FoMoCo sponsored drag car built by Performance Associates. The car held the record both ways (speed & e.t.). Their problem was they were sometimes getting rear axel bounce. They were breaking 9 inch differentials and twisting 31 spline axels—with a single 4 barrel 289. It doesn't take much bounce to trash parts, including those made with, sarcasm alert, unbreakable unobtainium.
In the early '60s I was talking to an engineer from Crucible. He said that the best steel was hard as glass (stiffness) and as soft as lead (resilience). Crucible's Hy Tuf was used for aircraft landing gear. Speciality metals for aircraft and racing have been around for a long, long time, including unobtanium.
BTW Sid, no streamliners, my SCTA records were all set with roadsters. Since then it's been AHRA, NHRA and USAC.
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O.K. I hold the opinion that if the torque is split between 2 diffs. each gets 50%. If i'm wrong then that's to d@mn bad. I say my reply 19 makes perfect sense. I was funnin' about Alan Johnson, because as a frequent winner in the NHRA nostalgia series Les is totally familiar with slider clutches and NITRO. Fact is they had to amend there rules because he out smarted them. He also cuts a mean light! Still has plenty of power to get it done and way less complex. 50% less chance of parts breakage. So it only goes 480 mph in Au. Oh, I'm only thinking 20-30% pop, not enough to burn holes in pistons or bang the blower every run. George
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I believe Cory told me a floater came apart in the clutch, jammed in the bellhousing, the motor kept churning, things started welding, then it stuck and sheared the bell off the motor.
Car sounded great on the runs, Les got the car stopped well with both problems, Marlo wanted to see a parachute test at 400, that was the purpose of the trip. Of course a time slip with a 475 - 5xx would have been spectacular.
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Bub 7 crashes at 300 Valerie OK
Video out now makes it look pretty bad......is the chassis a museum piece or can it be repaired?
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nobody ever responded to my question about married or divorced drivetrain----
I went to the GG awards shindig yesterday and got my question answered my suggestion would be to UNCOUPLE the front and rear drive trains let them run separately do not know if they are running a spool or not but if so go to a Torsen unit.
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Is there a Torsen style diff that is strong enough? I have a Quaiffe That has been mostly reliable but I only put 300hp through it in a sports car. The thing that concerns me with a Torsen style differential is the handling change that will occur which is dramatic. I think you will induce a spin much easier. Am I wrong?
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What about a slipper clutch type coupler? If the engines are close to hp and torque, something with as small as 200 ft/lbs ought to provide plenty of drive, but slip enough on shock loads? I don't know if it can recover the torque after slipping, but a spike ought to be eliminate.
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I have run over 900 through a stock 7.5 unit out of a Camaro with 28 splines--I felt like it helped my old car go much straighter.
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Sparky...I believe there is a "line shaft' that runs along side the engines and couples the whole affair together..I guess if they wanted to, They could run it with both engines and make it rear wheel drive only. Or front drive for that matter. JB
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Is there a Torsen style diff that is strong enough? I have a Quaiffe That has been mostly reliable but I only put 300hp through it in a sports car. The thing that concerns me with a Torsen style differential is the handling change that will occur which is dramatic. I think you will induce a spin much easier. Am I wrong?
I use a Hewland Mk9 open diff with OK results against 342 HP and 195 ft lbs of torque. I have a Torsen diff planned to replace the open unit. The idea is to balance torque application just like your Quaiffe. Not sure why you think the Torsen would induce a spin??
John
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JB that is what I was told-- that is most likely would be a matter of just removing a belt coupler to set it up where they could run seperately
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http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/135_003_jpg.html
http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/135_012_jpg.html
http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/135_014_jpg.html
http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/135_016_jpg.html
http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/138_010_jpg.html
http://www.target550.com/gallery/152_year_in_review_06/138_018_jpg.html
For those not familiar with the drive line.
Tom G.
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Tom, I just watched about a thousand pictures of Marlo's car build. Thanks to your post I now have a blister on my finger. That car is as complex as my wife. :-D
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Thanks Tom That let's us cut to the chase
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Tom, I just watched about a thousand pictures of Marlo's car build. Thanks to your post I now have a blister on my finger. That car is as complex as my wife. :-D
George,
Sorry about your finger, but hope you enjoyed the pictures.
Thanks Tom That let's us cut to the chase
Sparky,
Your welcome. Yes sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words, and there are more I just did not have time to find them all.
Tom G.