Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: fastesthonda_jim on November 19, 2017, 06:13:34 PM
-
Gentlemen, ladies, and speed junkies of all sorts,
As I understand it, four racers went out the back door this past meet and the BLM came within a hair of closing down the meet.
We need to hold onto this thing. This “thing” called Elmo.
In the past, times were simpler. There were fewer non-racers to “interact” with, speeds, on average, were not so high, and there was no BLM.
I’ll bet if you’ve been to a drivers’ meeting lately, you’ve gotten the sense that our days at Elmo may be numbered. Staying open is getting harder and more procedure-bound at every event.
The BLM asks simply, “No one out the Back Door.” (They ask other things, but No Back Door is Item Number One). I kind of have to agree with them. I frankly think our days at Elmo are going to end the INSTANT one of our entrants hits and severely injures (or worse) some errant 6-year-old on a mini quad.
What to do? We've tried fines, cones, lights, balloons, and nothing works 100%.
Well, to me the answer is simple. It may not be easy, but it is simple, and I'm completely serious about this.
We need to race in the other direction, i.e., East to West.
The advantages are numerous – here are some:
1. Right off the bat, such positioning would project a much stronger race ”presence” for that entire end of the lake for the tourists who wander over our way wondering, “Hey, what’s going on here?” 50 or so trailers and motor homes spread across the lake, plus all the starting line hoopla, would be far more “informative” than the “magnet” of a lonely line of cones, and some 25MPH signs (“Hey, I wonder what those are for? Let’s go see.”). Might even boost revenue at the sales trailer, not to mention heightening spectator interest and creating more racers. A good thing since “some” of us seem to be getting older.
2. It’s closer to town (okay, that’s not too big a deal, but still).
3. No sun in your eyes on those early morning passes.
4. Fewer patrols needed. (Not nearly as many of those, “No one’s looking. I’ll just cut across here.”)
5. And most importantly - no “Back Door” happenings. Ever.
“Well,” you might say, “If someone goes out the Back Door, they’ll end up crashing into the pucker bushes.” (Or possibly add their vehicle to the inventory at Callaway’s Fine Used Cars.) True, life may get pretty tough for them pretty quick. But their problem will be theirs alone and won’t involve any innocent bystanders. Might even get them (us) to take shutting down (brakes, parachutes, etc.) more seriously.
They might end up bruised and battered. But, we’d still get to race. (And no one has ever said what we do is safe.)
The BLM might even consent to us closing off the entire West end of the lake since East to West orientation would make our “needs” finite.
And, yes, the lake surface isn’t as good starting from the East end. But it’s way better than no surface at all.
I know there’s more to this discussion. I simply want to start a conversation.
Frankly, I think our biggest hurdle may be our self-imposed inertia of “We’ve always done it this way.”
In that vein, let me remind you. Our notion of, “Oh, we can’t (or we won’t) do that,” doesn’t hold a candle to the Power of the BLM and their ability to utter the simple statement, “No more. Not here. Not ever. Period!”
Keep the shiny side up.
Jim Knapp
-
Sounds good to me. Or maybe extend the shutoff area another 500 feet.
-
With respect Rich, we've already added 500+ feet and the problem still exists. I have watched experienced racers still on it a couple hundred yards from the"point" (The Back Back Door). And then argue with the SCTA crew about their infraction. And yes, if we were going the other way they would have hit the puckers at 120+. Bet they wouldn't have been so argumentative.
Just sayin'
-
It would be hard to miss the end of the runout. You would have to know you went to far.
-
There are several reasons where running the other direction are problematic. How bout this.
Close the east side of the lake bed.
I think it would not be hard to do actually. There is a road that goes across the north side of the lake that can be used for access to the pits/start line and spectators can go around the West end to get to the other side. And no spectators past the finish or even half track.
-
Wow! 4 cars out the "Back Door" is a disaster .....
IF I was tasked with maintaining safe operations at the El Mirage race Id be crazy upset...
We had better come up to a solution to this before next race season or else it will not be pretty....
I see a three level issue:
1- Drivers are too inept or caring to shut down properly plus equipment failures (chutes, brakes, etc) cause a vehicle to go "long" .
2- Vehicles are getting faster and faster making #1 more likely.
3- There is no physical barrier of any type preventing a vehicle from going "long".
Single solution answer?
" ARRESTING BARRIER NETTING " strung across the normal end of course (Not the emergency overrun area) with 50lb sandbags attached at discrete intervals along a long drag cables on both sides of the netting ends. This would be to provide a progressively increasing mass load for the netting.
$$$ would not be insurmountable ....
Labor for setup and teardown of the barrier system could be provided by the clubs that have members that go out the "BackDoor"
In addition:
Video records of when and where chutes are pulled could be used for hefty fines and racing licenses being voided.
Larger and/or multiple chutes could be required on the faster vehicles that have trouble slowing down comfortably...
My 2 Cents,
Robert "Smitty" Smith
-
In the spirit of the open discussion:
What about shortening it to 1 mile? That'll gain you 1600 extra feet, make grooming a safe track easier, and limit the top speeds.
I realize that 1.3 has been the standard for years, but when the 1.3 standard was set, few thought we'd be looking at 283 mph runs, regardless of their "officialality".
-
In the spirit of the open discussion:
What about shortening it to 1 mile? That'll gain you 1600 extra feet, make grooming a safe track easier, and limit the top speeds.
I realize that 1.3 has been the standard for years, but when the 1.3 standard was set, few thought we'd be looking at 283 mph runs, regardless of their "officialality".
Good idea Chris and it makes sense. Big changes need to happen or we are history.
How about mandatory four wheel brakes? Or on the entry form in red "5 year suspension of drivers license if out the back door violation occurs?
5000 lb. vehicles traveling over 250 mph equals a long distance to stop if parachutes fail with only rear brakes.
NHRA shortened the track for T/F and F/C maybe it is time for us to do the same.
Tom G.
-
I was asked to get a larger chute and I weigh less than 3500# and am running on records of less than 230
-
"Skilled" drivers, myself included, have gone out thee back door for various reasons. At the other extreme, I think it was Pete Prentice who had a chute failure at 300+ and got it stopped inbounds.
And I don't know if all of the solutions have been discussed, but IMHO license suspension for infraction should not be part of the discussion. Not out of disrespect, but simply out of what I perceive as the reality of One More Back Door may result in a permanent suspension of your racing (and everyone else's) whether you have a license or not.
I would be interested in knowing what exactly is "problematic" about running the other direction. I will not deny there will be some difficulties, but doing it the way we have always done is going to quite soon result in us not doing it at all. And frankly I can think of no other 100% solution. Not 99.9% - 100%.
Over-
-
How about stringing a soft barrier across the end of the course? A thin flexible orange perforated plastic "snow fence" or "traffic barrier" held in plastic by a few willow wands would be a very visible indication to a driver that it is the END of the course. If, for whatever reason, he goes through it, no significant damage would occur but his embarrassment would be profound and the color of his face might match that of the barrier. The plastic is cheap and easily replaceable.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
I don't think Running the other way would solve anything. We still need runnout beyond the course area. So if this area is not closed to the public the same problem will happen only in the other direction. Running the other way is problematic for a couple reasons at least. One .. Dust, we typically get west to east wind. The dust would constantly be blown into the face of everyone on the start, stage, pits etc. Two the dirt is worse the further east you go. So the best dirt would be wasted in our "runout" area not even being used on the course. And again the dust would be much worse at the start area because of said dirt.
Changin the course length would mean retiring all current records and start with completely new minimums etc. Can you imagine? In my opinion a lot of the backdoors are people not paying attention. They only stop once they see the lane narrowing and the long line of cones across the back door. Course length or shut down length doesn't solve this. This is mostly a driver issue. The occasions due to actual real (not claimed) mechanical or chute issues is small.
The only thing the far end is used for is to come and go from the track. With the exception of a small amount of other users. I personally think closing the East end of the lake bed would be a viable option if in fact this is a real problem. It is a real problem in the terms of BLM relations, but I don't know how much of a real safety issue it is. People are typically driving around 50 to 60 off the end of the lake anyway a race car (while it isn't supposed to be there) doesn't have anymore safety risk at that speed down there than a regular car. Yes I know that arguement holds no water with anybody but its the truth.
How about extending our shutdown area , with a false back door. An area where you get your ass chewed for violating but we are still within our own race area and not into the BLM's ass chewing area?
-
" ARRESTING BARRIER NETTING " strung across the normal end of course (Not the emergency overrun area) with 50lb sandbags attached at discrete intervals along a long drag cables on both sides of the netting ends. This would be to provide a progressively increasing mass load for the netting.
Smitty, I've only attended Elmo events twice, so I'm no expert, but that would worry me.
If somebody was at the end spectating, or if a course worker who was keeping an eye on the back door was on the outside of the netting, even if they had the presence of mind to run perpendicular to the trajectory of a car unable to stop, you've possibly turned the safety net into a 100-300 foot wide snare that could wind up tripping or dragging a person across the lakebed until the vehicle finally came to a stop.
The other aspect of that is that it works according to plan. Then it's all-hands-on-deck to get the safety net set back up again if somebody did roll through it.
I'm always hearing grumbling about not being able to get runs in. Throw in another 45 minutes of labor in the middle of an event, and that's another dozen racers waiting in line.
Changin the course length would mean retiring all current records and start with completely new minimums etc. Can you imagine?
I'd think the 1.3 records would stand, but would need to be separated.
While I've never understood the reason for minimums, a clean sheet with hundreds of open records is what I see there.
That actually sounds more like an opportunity than a problem.
-
Hmmm:
go out the back and you and your car can not run with for at least a full season and must have 4 wheel brakes that must be demonstrate stopping capablity at all lisc speeds with a brake porportioning valve to be demonstrated that the car is capable of locking up both frt and rear brakes when valve is changed to favor one axle off for each axle.
Another suggestion drivers lisc. have a B'ville side and a EL M side with all lisc on each side with all lisc listed:
El M Competition lisc. Comp.Director Date Comp. Dir Date
Rookie Class completed E ________ _____ D________ _____
C ________ ______ B ________ _____
A ________ ______ AA________ _____
Unlimited________ ______ __________ ______
ONE LISC> but each track has it own lisc. up procedure and sign offs
driver and car be kept in the rookie line until signed off by competition director to run on a record---IE there would now sorta be rookie cars
-
2 year suspension for vehicle, vehicle owner and driver at El Mirage and 5 year suspension for vehicle, vehicle owner and driver at Bonneville will be the most effective . Simple. Cheap and easy to enforce . Drag racers don't continue another course length under power, they are shutting down at the finish line, they are watching for it, they never miss it. They know the shut down area is limited, what racer at El Mirage doesn't know where the finish line is and that the shut down area is limited unlike Bonneville?
Dalton and the Flashpoint car had no problem 283mph out of the rookie lane, it can be done, just be aware.
Keny
-
I guess I'm just not getting through. I'm of the opinion that ONE more Back Door and we may never race again. I'm not talking about "only" going out at 50 or 60mph, I'm talking about the front of a car/bike going out 5".
We Currently have about a one mile shut down area. At the end of that is a line perpendicular to the race course, that is the "mini" Back Door and, I believe, carries a mini Back Door penalty of no points or no record or something (I forget). About 1/4 mile beyond that (I may have some of these distances wrong) is a funnel of cones leading down to a point. That is the "Threats of cancelling the meet" Back Door. THAT is the door that was violated four times.
Now I don't care about license suspensions. Personally I asked for this discussion in the spirit of taking what ever was offered, but IMO discussion of license suspension is a complete waste of time. Even if the penalty was cutting off someone's right foot, there's a good chance we would still have cars go out the Back.
And don't forget, we are a volunteer organization. So adding jobs, responsibility and not racing time to a volunteer's weekend, seems a bit counterproductive.
And as to rookie licenses, and all, well, I'll just say that I know of at least one rookie whose first pass ever at Bonneville was 240+ in a roadster.
Okay. Back to all y'all.
-
The problem is not the course, it is the drivers, they go well past the lights before pulling there chute. the shutdown area is over a mile long, that should be more than enough room to stop. The chute should be pulled in the lights, so it will come out as soon as possible.
-
First offense, driver and car banned for year.
2nd, driver and car banned for life.
Increase the length of shutdown area even more.
Increase density of cones at finish. Not the two big balloon festooned markers, but the lines that go right and left from them. A solid line of cones would help seeing the finish coming up in dust conditions.
Hire some lawyers and turn this on BLM. Make them police the area outside cones.
-
I think Jim's point is 110% valid and that some are missing it.....
Sanctions can't do a dang thing about Chute failures, cockpits full of dust. disoriented rookie drivers in fast heavy vehicles,etc.....
THE BLM ONLY CARES THAT A VEHICLE GOES OFF THE END OF THE COURSE !!!! PERIOD!!!!
Cause is for us to figure out and deal with IF WE STILL HAVE A PLACE TO RACE and this is the nut we have to crack...
Arresting Barrier is to only way I see to cover all possible causes .....
Isn't this what the Navy's Aircraft Carriers have decided on?
Smitty
-
Thanks for the support Baron.
And arresting barriers might make things difficult for bikers (but, of course, pucker bushes would too). The problem I can see is unless they were huge, the drivers would have a choice whether to hit them or to drive around them. Not to mention it's one more thing to set up, manage, and take down (more volunteers).
A few posts ago the point was made that drag racers don't have any trouble popping the chute(s) at the right time. Two non LSR reasons for that:
1. A pro knows that popping the chute(s) 100 feet before the lights dumps maybe 15-20 lbs. out of the car. Given that many Pro races are decided by less than an inch, it seems like an effective tactic to get that .002 of a second needed to win.
2. Their race "parks" are finite in length, and if they don't stop, they die, or get severely trashed, about 1/4 mile later. (I'm guessing death is more effective than license suspension in this case.)
Our problem is our thought (yes, OUR thought - if you are a driver, this includes YOU), "Well, if it all goes to Hell, at least I have a lot of room to stop." So we tend to be cavalier about our braking. And more volunteers to inspect braking systems, is not IMO a workable, or anything near, a 100% solution.
Again, I say, if we don't come up with a 100% solution, and come up with it pretty darn quick, someone else will come up with it for us.
Going the other way, with the starting line at what is now the "point" of the Back Door cones, simply seems like the most "cost effective" (time, money, volunteers) way to accomplish it.
How about we run one test meet to 1. see how things go, and 2. show Good Faith to the BLM? Do it sort of like a Test and Tune, you know, no points, just time slips. Maybe two weeks before the first Official weekend.
Over,
Knapp
-
At cook's meet they use a dual chute and net set up at the highway end for emergencies. When the car hits the net it deploys chutes at both ends of the net. Put that at the first end of course. http://104.34.60.41/lsp/images/bonneville/2011/2011shootout/misc/images/110924W121.jpg
-
The area past the "back door" is the the "safety containment zone". It's an added buffer beyond the end of the track that was really intended to keep clueless spectators from driving onto the course. You'll notice that the cone density on the SCZ is much higher than the regular course boundaries on the side. A second side effect of having the SCZ is that it gives cars/bikes that go off the end of the course a smidgen of extra room to get stopped.
The standard shut down area is a mile plus a few hundred extra feet. It's been extended at least once if not twice. Before it was extended, multiple cars went 300 mph and got stopped without going out the back door. There's no reason to extend the stand shut down area but I think it would make complete sense to make for a longer SCZ.
Anyone ever been on a road course before? Ever seen the 5-4-3-2-1 count down before a sharp turn? I suggested doing the same thing (I think we know where to find big orange markers with numbers on them) in the shut down area years ago when I first got into the rookie program but was shot down because it was something that a car/bike could run into. Well, I suggest this solution again. It won't be nearly as bad to hit a mile marker than it would for someone to hit a spectator going out the back under power. Oddly enough, I sent an email to my club president suggesting this same thing and apparently it was brought up at the board meeting last week - coincidence?
So, you would have a finish line followed by a 5-4-3-2-1 shut down area with a much longer SCZ. If someone manages to go off the end of the course but stay within the SCZ, same penalties that we already have. If someone goes out of the SCZ, that driver/rider is banned FOR LIFE. We don't need some clueless idiot running at our events if they can't keep from driving off the end of the course under power. Go away, stay away.
Now here's a piece of history for you all.... the SCTA has run the other way before and in fairly "modern" history - not the 40's or 50's but in the 80's. I think the story was that the end of the track we usually race on was too wet so they ran the other way from the other end of the lakebed. I even have photos (even though it was prior to my existence)!
-
Thanks, Nathan,
It's good to know that the way we do it now is "backwards."
And failing a switcheroo I LIKE the idea of shut down numbers. Yes they can be hit, but they are cheaper than a 6 year old.
-
Gentlemen, ladies, and speed junkies of all sorts,
As I understand it, four racers went out the back door this past meet and the BLM came within a hair of closing down the meet.
We need to hold onto this thing. This “thing” called Elmo.
In the past, times were simpler. There were fewer non-racers to “interact” with, speeds, on average, were not so high, and there was no BLM.
I’ll bet if you’ve been to a drivers’ meeting lately, you’ve gotten the sense that our days at Elmo may be numbered. Staying open is getting harder and more procedure-bound at every event.
The BLM asks simply, “No one out the Back Door.” (They ask other things, but No Back Door is Item Number One). I kind of have to agree with them. I frankly think our days at Elmo are going to end the INSTANT one of our entrants hits and severely injures (or worse) some errant 6-year-old on a mini quad.
What to do? We've tried fines, cones, lights, balloons, and nothing works 100%.
Well, to me the answer is simple. It may not be easy, but it is simple, and I'm completely serious about this.
What a good idea! I would like to hear some opposing ideas.
I've been saying, better course markings for us AMATEUR drivers. Penaltys are ok, but are imposed after the infraction.
We need to race in the other direction, i.e., East to West.
The advantages are numerous – here are some:
1. Right off the bat, such positioning would project a much stronger race ”presence” for that entire end of the lake for the tourists who wander over our way wondering, “Hey, what’s going on here?” 50 or so trailers and motor homes spread across the lake, plus all the starting line hoopla, would be far more “informative” than the “magnet” of a lonely line of cones, and some 25MPH signs (“Hey, I wonder what those are for? Let’s go see.”). Might even boost revenue at the sales trailer, not to mention heightening spectator interest and creating more racers. A good thing since “some” of us seem to be getting older.
2. It’s closer to town (okay, that’s not too big a deal, but still).
3. No sun in your eyes on those early morning passes.
4. Fewer patrols needed. (Not nearly as many of those, “No one’s looking. I’ll just cut across here.”)
5. And most importantly - no “Back Door” happenings. Ever.
“Well,” you might say, “If someone goes out the Back Door, they’ll end up crashing into the pucker bushes.” (Or possibly add their vehicle to the inventory at Callaway’s Fine Used Cars.) True, life may get pretty tough for them pretty quick. But their problem will be theirs alone and won’t involve any innocent bystanders. Might even get them (us) to take shutting down (brakes, parachutes, etc.) more seriously.
They might end up bruised and battered. But, we’d still get to race. (And no one has ever said what we do is safe.)
The BLM might even consent to us closing off the entire West end of the lake since East to West orientation would make our “needs” finite.
And, yes, the lake surface isn’t as good starting from the East end. But it’s way better than no surface at all.
I know there’s more to this discussion. I simply want to start a conversation.
Frankly, I think our biggest hurdle may be our self-imposed inertia of “We’ve always done it this way.”
In that vein, let me remind you. Our notion of, “Oh, we can’t (or we won’t) do that,” doesn’t hold a candle to the Power of the BLM and their ability to utter the simple statement, “No more. Not here. Not ever. Period!”
Keep the shiny side up.
Jim Knapp
-
Cars being where they should not is something we deal with on a daily basis in the highway department. We would lay out a line of portable concrete barrier if no errant vehicles are allowed in a location. This works most of the time. Cones, flagging, barrels, striping, etc are all "porous" to some degree. It looks like a single future incident may cause course closure. There is no alternative except to race in the other direction or to make a hard physical barrier.
-
Reverse the track== end of EL M supercharging and build a permanent "Safety Containment Zone that sides boundries are marked by safety barriers.
Most of the "Safety Containment Zone could be off the lake bed with concrete barriers along each side there could be 2 nets one with chutes followed with a system like the sand bag suggestion but with tires filled with concrete attached to a 3/8" chain start with small ones and progressively work up to larger ones. These would be made to detachable from the main chain. Would be individually detachable from the main chain. This way every thing could be moved by towing behind a pick up. Dig up the pucker bushes and could even put pea gravel like runaway truck safety areas in the mountains in front of the barriers to help slow between them.
Get in the pea gravel driver and car owner suspension for a year EL M
Hit barriers driver, owner and car for 5years at El M and 2 years a B'ville.
-
And you're going to personally write a check for how much of this?
I believe I recall one time asking about burying the batteries that power the timing lights so errant cars would run over, rather than "through", them. I was informed that the BLM does not want the lake bed disturbed any more than we do already.
Plus to me ANY solution that involves action AFTER the offense, is like giving you a ticket after you have killed the kid. I'm looking for ways (cheap ways) to prevent the problem in the first place and still have a worthwhile racing experience.
Just sayin'
Back to all y'all
-
JIM i will pay my part---hell-O-- I will even build the drags--- the side barriers could be netting -- one would not have to have the pea gravel but I think we should dig out the bushes---this could all nearly be done off what is considered lake bed!!
:dhorse: PS the SCTA need to get involved politically!!
-
I'd bet you could not dig up the bushes. On clean-up days, you're not allowed to pick up square nails or colored glass – they're considered artifacts. I understand some people cheat.
We'd hate to go against the BLM's wishes as we've seen, over the decades, what great stewards of the public lands they are -- like at Bonneville.
-
I realize going out the back door is a serious matter and the BLM is threatening to shut us down. Interesting how bureaucrats think. On a good day, the BLM probably has 75-100 recreational users at El Mo generating between $1,125-$1,500 a day in revenue. On an SCTA race weekend, they are seeing at least that amount and probably more just from spectators and entrants paying the $15 who do not have annual passes, PLUS SCTA fees whatever they amount to.
Why can't the BLM give us the West side of the lakebed for three miles. The recreational users still have plenty of lakebed to enjoy. Yes I realize it would require a few more cones and extra patrol people, but I feel it would eliminate the back door problem. I would be willing to bet the BLM likes our revenue as much as we like to use the lakebed as long as it can be done safely.
-
By the way, that "good day" I was referring to would be a Saturday or Sunday. Probably very little revenue week days.
-
Their job is supposedly not to produce revenue. But I think they get a gold star if they do. I'm sure they get Brownie points for things like selling off the salt at Bonneville for decades. They've allowed the ruination of a national treasure.
And look at the proposed new National Park fees. To me, it looks like running the parks and government land now has to be profitable. I was so naive that I thought the money spent on them was to insure their endurance for years. I wonder how much it would cost to cut off Roosevelt's nose in the Dakotas.
As for El Mirage, have any of our colleagues ever been detained or suppressed for mid-week "tuning" runs? And is running out the back door at 10 or 20 mph comparable to blasting across the surface at 60+ MPH in an off-road vehicle. It's amazing how many off-roaders with scads of suspension travel spend their days speeding across the flat lake bed.
There have been numerous deaths at El Mirage the past years. Most (all?) have not involved the SCTA. Off-road vehicle, experimental aircraft, ultra-lights (the same thing?), etc. seem to be the culprit. And, unknown to most of our competitors, we have to pay and post insurance. How 'bout the rest?
All of the above statements will not change a thing. This year has been a year that we've seen the government move in many ways that many (often the majority) don't think is the will of the people. We have this silly representative form of government where we have been taught that our elected officials look out for us. Yet, it seems that money interests trump the people's desire. Anyone that thought that a coalition lobbying the government for saving Bonneville has got to see the handwriting sinking in the mud.
Oh well, it was fun.
-
Big DA-amm difference between elected Representative (almost extinct)
and Elected and non-elected Govt officials--- officials represent, act and vote for the self-serving Deep State form of GOVT.
-
And with respect, jww36, what do you do about the guy (an EXPERIENCED racer) I watched while on patrol one day, still running 120 or so about a hundred yards from the Back Back door. Or the biker a year or so ago who went out the Back Back still on it hard at 150+ (as I recall - I didn't see this one, just heard about it).
-
let them get acquainted with the SAFETY Zone NETS I would be willing to bet they make changes to where they can see or stop before running again.
-
Jim;
Rookie or experienced, there is no excuse for going out the back door. Even if you reverse the course you will still have this problem unless drivers/riders know where the finish line is. I've always thought a six foot tall column of black and white balloons tied together would better define the finish line. Another thing SCTA might consider is a column of red ball balloons 100-150 yards past finish line with an SCTA official off course but in line with these red balloons. If the chute has not left the bag by the time car has passed red markers, run is void and he is parked for rest of event. If it is an afternoon run, he forfeits 1st pass next event. For a rider, he/she would have to be off throttle by the red markers.
All this said, it is educating the competitors to follow shut down procedures. Even if you did provide a three mile course, I'd bet you would still have an individual go half way to Adelanto before shutting down.
-
A cardboard cut out of a black and white patrol car, made in folding sections for easy transportation and storage should get attention :-o
JL222
-
Maybe it would be productive to ask folks who went too far why it happened? There might be a reason that nobody knows about. We do this at work. It is an "incident report." These are kept on record and when a trend appears some safety measures are taken.
-
The answer, to me, is very simple. If the BLM are looking for an excuse to shut down our racing at El Mirage then if a car or a bike goes out the back door and the additional 500 feet then they are gone. End of story.
-
an ARRESTING NET ---STOPS the PROBLEM
-
I have not run at El Mirage, but I have run at Bonneville, Blytheville, Wilmington and Loring. Of all, I thought Loring had the end of the course marked the best. I was totally confused at World of Speed this year and had to redrive the course a second time during orientation to find the finish line. I think some pattern of big red X's or some lights at the end are the best to signal you to shut down, simple cones don't cut it.
-
how about stings of pennants above the finish line
-
Again, my concern about a net -
-
how about stings of pennants above the finish line
Stinging pennants. That could be the solution.
-
an ARRESTING NET ---STOPS the PROBLEM
Do you really think anyone on a motor cycle or even a car would drive into a net when there is flat land beyond??
JL222
-
the net keeps them from getting to the flat land-- beyond to me means past
that was why I suggested barriers they funnel toward the net you go that deep in --you either stop or hit the net
-
visibility either blinded by sunlight as it hits windshield or dust in cars or "B'ville tucks" ie not looking where you are going on bikes
awareness--some folks are easily distracted by concentrating on other things that are happening during a run like watching the tach, oil pressure temp gauge -- ect ect instead of where they are on the track.
-
Barriers? what kind of barriers?
-
the net keeps them from getting to the flat land-- beyond to me means past
that was why I suggested barriers they funnel toward the net you go that deep in --you either stop or hit the net
Barriers? What kind of barriers Sparky?
JL222
-
they could be nets or concrete ---something to funnel the vech. to the arresting net .. I know they would be an extreme PITA---but would be better than not getting to run
-
they could be nets or concrete ---something to funnel the vech. to the arresting net .. I know they would be an extreme PITA---but would be better than not getting to run
And what would happen to a rider at speed going into a net?
How long to set this up? Get real.
JL222
-
So as a guy with only my Rookie pass at Elmo under my belt (Thanks George Callaway) I'm just as concerned as everyone else on this forum about the possibility of the BLM potentially pulling the plug on racing at Elmo if there are further run/s out the back door.
If everything goes right I plan to race as many races as possible at Elmo next year. I have raced some sort of motorsports my whole life. I've Stock car raced for about 20 years and now that I'm "Older" the last 18 or so I've landspeed raced at Bonneville, both ECTA tracks and Loring Maine with some success.
The last thing I want to hear (or any other racer wants to hear) is the possibility of Elmo getting shut down because someone wasn't able to shut down.
Personally I don't believe taking points away, banning someone for a year or life depending what the situation may be helps the rest of the racers if this is an event that could take away the racing for everyone... forever at Elmo. Yes if there are spectators out there running around at the shutdown end and someone besides a racer gets hurt or even a close call, I would think that would be enough to end the racing as we know it.
Yes running from East to West will probably create challenges nobody has even thought of yet but if that is what makes a viable option for years to come then I think its worth trying at least for the first event or first year.
Yes some sort of "Net" may work although if I was on a bike I'm not sure I would be too excited about it. But all of the options are really for an "Emergency situation?"
I don't know if this is possible but what if we funnel the "runaway" car or bike toward a wide "Gate" that could be opened during racing leading to George Callaways land? And for an easy explanation, having it like a runaway truck ramp to really stop the vehicle. This doesn't change the lakebed. I know its probably not a perfect idea (Considering I didn't mention it to George yet) but as a guy who would like to spend some time running at Elmo trying to get a dirty two jacket its what I came up with. This landracing stuff does that to a person..... they stay up at night and stare at the ceiling thinking of solutions.
Thoughts?
-
JL---don't know but one thing---he would not go out the back door---- that is the objective here---no one out the back door
-
JL---don't know but one thing---he would not go out the back door---- that is the objective here---no one out the back door
You would rather see him in the hospital? Meet shut down, SCTA sued.
Like I said get real.
Hard to take.
JL222
-
I've raced my motorcycles on tracks where there were steel Armco rails, pea gravel pits, trees, barbwire and then trees, and off a cliff into a river at the end of the course.
I'd willing take going into a net vs any of those options....
For El Mo, going East to West into the pucker bushes and fence wire is probably the easiest option to get up and running.
I think any racer with a functioning brain realizes that there are serious consequences should one run out of track when stopping. It comes with the territory.
Smitty
-
A net with two chutes has been used at Bonneville. This system was designed by Don and Rick Vesco. I remember it being used some years ago. As far as I know it's still in SCTA hands. It has been tested and stopped the vehicles. I think there is a little more that the inspectors should such as make every vehicle pop their chutes in inspection. It's in the rules. A chute is a critical part of every vehicle and should be mandentory every run period.
-
Glen, how wide is this net?
I take it that it is intended to prevent vehicles from crossing I-80, and was likely on the south side?
-
JL I think I am trying to deal with reality---I want to keep racing--- my head is not stuck in the lake beds
When someone starts their run they know that they are going to stop short of going out of bounds---they get to control how---you the driver/rider can be (not can be---ARE) the one who determines how and where to stop-what's wrong with that..
POST SCRIPT---- 11/30/2017
The Driver/Rider is the one who is responsible for not going out of bounds if he fails his responsibility --- hitting the net just helps him out with his responsibility. They assume that responsibility and consequences if they or their car or bike fails to perform!!!!! HARD maybe but this is high speed racing on public land.
-
Sparky-
What you say is the bottom line.
If a "civilian" gets hurt at El Mirage, BLM can say, "No more racing here - and by the way , no racing on any BLM land."
THEIR problems are SOLVED
Will Willis
#6302
-
I saw the net at the Shootout a while back - don't have a picture right handy. It was maybe 50' wide and was installed on the AWAY FROM THE FREEWAY SIDE at the south (Freeway) end of the track (of course).
A big net - maybe 4' high - suspended from poles on either end, with a chute on each end bagged and ready to deploy when the net is hit. The chutes are pulled open and bloom as the vehicle moves the net away from the poles (and the bags). The vehicle would stop in the muck that's between the net and the truck stop.
-
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/11/29/after-off-track-excursions-concerns-mount-over-future-of-racing-at-el-mirage/?refer=news
-
I have never been to Elmo so take my comments with a grain of salt (no pun intended):
It's doubtful that anyone ever intentionally runs off the end of the course and it is doubtful if there many braking/chute failures that result in running off the end. It seems far more likely that the driver/rider did not see the markers indicating the shutdown. There needs to be large, highly visible markers to indicate the point where a vehicle needs to begin braking.
Under stress, people tend to suffer "tunnel vision"- that is, they focus on a very narrow field of view. In LSR, that would be straight ahead, focused in the far distance. Unless a marker extends into this narrow field, the driver will miss seeing it. Add dust, obscured vision, etc. and the problem only gets worse.
Even experienced competitors can suffer from tunnel vision. In the early '60s I knew an Army pilot in Corpus Christi who flew an OV-1 Mohawk into his target during a gunnery practice run. The target was towed behind a ship and the pilot did not pull out of his dive; he flew into the target, totally concentrating on placing his rounds accurately. The term for this was "Target Fascination".
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/11/29/after-off-track-excursions-concerns-mount-over-future-of-racing-at-el-mirage/?refer=news
Florence orange signs with flashing led lights? has anyone seen these?
Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them. No he hasn't, but cockpit does get dusty.
A good idea though.
JL222
-
JL I don't want to see anyone in the hospital---but I would rather see that than no racing for ALL OF US!
Build a racer that operates in a safe manner and maintain it in such a way that it has no issues such as I have mentioned earlier. Over the years I have had issues with my cars-- but I fixed them. So far we have not hit where a net would have been. I had chute issues--wouldn't fly right--longer tether---brake issues---to big of a master cyl-- dust in and outside--moved the location of my positive vent and installed an air exit in the bottom of my car--now no dust in the drivers blinded by noon day sun completely redid the canopy---on and on---
But the bottom line we realize we have "to see and keep up with where we are on the track" so that we can STOP in time!!
Anyone who races at EL M owe the rest of the racers as much---if they don't their fellow racers have the right to assist them with an arresting net.
-
How many folks have ridden their motorcycles through a course marker at Bonneville and lived to tell the tale?
A line of similar orange netting on a slim PVC tubing frame markers could be used to indicate the end of the course without being too much of a hazard. It might take a dozen of them but that is not untenable.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
JL I don't want to see anyone in the hospital---but I would rather see that than no racing for ALL OF US!
Build a racer that operates in a safe manner and maintain it in such a way that it has no issues such as I have mentioned earlier. Over the years I have had issues with my cars-- but I fixed them. So far we have not hit where a net would have been. I had chute issues--wouldn't fly right--longer tether---brake issues---to big of a master cyl-- dust in and outside--moved the location of my positive vent and installed an air exit in the bottom of my car--now no dust in the drivers blinded by noon day sun completely redid the canopy---on and on---
But the bottom line we realize we have "to see and keep up with where we are on the track" so that we can STOP in time!!
Anyone who races at EL M owe the rest of the racers as much---if they don't their fellow racers have the right to assist them with an arresting net.
Sparky... there is a name for people that think as you do. starts with a p and ends with h
What is your top speed at El Mirage? I have an idea it's not that high.
I can see a motorcycle streamliner going into a net but not an open rider.
Has anyone seen these orange signs an flashing lights? Or is this fake news?
As much as the BLM has mismanaged Bonneville one would think they would be open to allowing more run off space
at El Mirage.
jl222
-
You should think about Willmington OH. Someone went out the"back door" tore up a bunch of expensive lights and now they can't race there anymore.
-
You are correct JL its not that high but we changed classes to see if we can go a little faster. Please tell me how speed has anything to do with it----- I am so dumb I can't figure out the nice compliment you are trying to give me!!
-
Tried to control myself all day but couldn't do it..."Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them......."
.........as he was driving out the back...................... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
-
Thundersalt ...Did you see those signs and lights?
jl222
-
OHHHHH I didn't know that-----If I had known that I would not have made any reference to the dust in the car--that has been mentioned in the past by video from their "in car"---I know from Sr's past posts that he is a delicate and subject to being upset---especially when he knows----well he knows what he knows
-
You are correct JL its not that high but we changed classes to see if we can go a little faster. Please tell me how speed has anything to do with it----- I am so dumb I can't figure out the nice compliment you are trying to give me!!
Well Sparky, you know, the faster you go the longer it takes to stop.
JL222
-
[/quote]
Well Sparky, you know, the faster you go the longer it takes to stop.
JL222
[/quote]
Tell that to Dannenfeltzer. He can stop quicker from 250+ than most of the 100 mph cars.
-
N. 592 We hope to find out what its like to stop from 250 at EL M we will be driving toward the side cones much sooner after deploying our EL M chute in the future---the last time we ran there we got in trouble because we stopped too far from the edge--- not close enough to the cones so much for the bigger chute.
-
Sparky... there is a name for people that think as you do. starts with a p and ends with h
OK JL, I couldn't figure it out on my own, so I tried google.....
padishah, padshah, paganish, pah, painch, paintbrush, palish, panfish, paragraph, paraph, parashah, parashioth, parashoth, parch, pardah, parflesh, pariah, parish, parritch, pash, patch, path, patriarch, paunch, peach, peakish, pearlash, pech, peevish, pentarch, perch, perianth, perish, perkish, pettish, pharaoh, phonograph, photograph, pibroch, pigfish, piggish, pinch, pinfish, pinkish, pipefish, pish, pitch, pith, pittsburgh, pixieish, pixyish, planch, planish, plash, pleach, plenish, plinth, plough, plumpish, plush, poach, poh, polish, polymath, pooch, pooh, poorish, poortith, popish, porch, posh, potash, potlach, potlatch, pouch, prankish, preach, preestablish, prelaunch, prepunch, prewash, priggish, prudish, prutah, prutoth, psych, psychopath, publish, puckish, puggish, pugh, punch, punish, punkah, pupfish, puppyish, purdah, purplish, push, putsch, pygmyish
Impressively, I found one in there that describe a lot of us.... plumpish :-D :cheers:
OK back to your regularly scheduled discussion on Elmo
-
Sparky... there is a name for people that think as you do. starts with a p and ends with h
OK JL, I couldn't figure it out on my own, so I tried google.....
padishah, padshah, paganish, pah, painch, paintbrush, palish, panfish, paragraph, paraph, parashah, parashioth, parashoth, parch, pardah, parflesh, pariah, parish, parritch, pash, patch, path, patriarch, paunch, peach, peakish, pearlash, pech, peevish, pentarch, perch, perianth, perish, perkish, pettish, pharaoh, phonograph, photograph, pibroch, pigfish, piggish, pinch, pinfish, pinkish, pipefish, pish, pitch, pith, pittsburgh, pixieish, pixyish, planch, planish, plash, pleach, plenish, plinth, plough, plumpish, plush, poach, poh, polish, polymath, pooch, pooh, poorish, poortith, popish, porch, posh, potash, potlach, potlatch, pouch, prankish, preach, preestablish, prelaunch, prepunch, prewash, priggish, prudish, prutah, prutoth, psych, psychopath, publish, puckish, puggish, pugh, punch, punish, punkah, pupfish, puppyish, purdah, purplish, push, putsch, pygmyish
Impressively, I found one in there that describe a lot of us.... plumpish :-D :cheers:
OK back to your regularly scheduled discussion on Elmo
Yeah plumpish, especially this time of the year :cheers:
JL222
-
The fast guys seemed to get stopped OK at the November meet. Maybe because they were paying attemtion. It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.
-
In addition to the current finish line markers why not supplement them with some flags ( think the black and white triangular race flags on fences around race tracks) mounted 10 or 12 feet above the finish line. Some light orange plastic netting could also be used. You wouldn't need a long span, just enough of a visual clue that it's time to dump the laundry, shut off the fuel or kill the ignition.
Tom
-
... It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.
Other have said this, and it is true. If this was a NASA or DOD project, no one would consider suggesting solutions until they knew WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS. To suggest otherwise is folly.
We have heard (or I can think of):
chute failure
brake failure
dust outside vehicle
dust inside vehicle
racers "red mist"
deliberate attempt to get a longer run (testing for Bonneville?)
thought the finish was merely mile 1 marker from Bonneville
morning sun
lack of penalty => don't care
Other things we don't know (but should)
what class were they running
what brand chute were they running
drivers name
team name
speed at back door
still in throttle at back door?
Collection of information like this is critical to solving the problem.
So now, let me engage in some folly. First offense, driver and car banned for year, 2nd offense, lifetime ban. Exception: in the case of brake or chute failure, then the driver gets a pass. If we find out that chutes have a high failure rate, perhaps we need to ban classes that require chutes. If we find out all the offenses are from a handful of classes, perhaps those classes need to go. Believe me if you ban a popular driver or car for a year or a lifetime, it will get peoples attention. So many of the reasons I listed above are due to the fact that the driver doesn't lift when there is a problem. Ban somebody, the word will get out and I'd bet the number of backdoor violations goes down.
Last point, and I know I'll regret saying this, but if we had 4 (or more) backdoor violations last meet and the BLM didn't shut us down, this whole issue seems like a red herring to me. A bunch of toothless finger wagging. Don't really want to test the theory, but given all the violations we had this year, it is either a miracle we haven't been shut down, or there is something else afoot.
-
I only heard stories of 2 that went out
dust clouded vision was and could have been a contributing factor
geezz if you guys think I am plumpish I better get on a diet before the next meet
-
Well Sparky I didn't see too many on the list that might apply... poortith maybe... although puirtith wasn't on the list..... and they mean the same thing.... :roll:
But it never hurts to fit in the car better.... :cheers:
-
... It would be interesting to hear from the guys who went out the back about why that happened. Then you could think about how to prevent it from happening again.
Other have said this, and it is true. If this was a NASA or DOD project, no one would consider suggesting solutions until they knew WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS. To suggest otherwise is folly.
We have heard (or I can think of):
chute failure
brake failure
dust outside vehicle
dust inside vehicle
racers "red mist"
deliberate attempt to get a longer run (testing for Bonneville?)
thought the finish was merely mile 1 marker from Bonneville
morning sun
lack of penalty => don't care
Other things we don't know (but should)
what class were they running
what brand chute were they running
drivers name
team name
speed at back door
still in throttle at back door?
Collection of information like this is critical to solving the problem.
So now, let me engage in some folly. First offense, driver and car banned for year, 2nd offense, lifetime ban. Exception: in the case of brake or chute failure, then the driver gets a pass. If we find out that chutes have a high failure rate, perhaps we need to ban classes that require chutes. If we find out all the offenses are from a handful of classes, perhaps those classes need to go. Believe me if you ban a popular driver or car for a year or a lifetime, it will get peoples attention. So many of the reasons I listed above are due to the fact that the driver doesn't lift when there is a problem. Ban somebody, the word will get out and I'd bet the number of backdoor violations goes down.
Last point, and I know I'll regret saying this, but if we had 4 (or more) backdoor violations last meet and the BLM didn't shut us down, this whole issue seems like a red herring to me. A bunch of toothless finger wagging. Don't really want to test the theory, but given all the violations we had this year, it is either a miracle we haven't been shut down, or there is something else afoot.
1 year ban at El Mirage for vehicle, owner and driver, 3 year ban for vehicle, owner and driver at bonneville will nip reasons 3,4,5,6,7,8 &9 in the bud. Equipment failures would need evaluation , return to rookie status to run at El Mirage again. After making good rookie runs , ban from bonneville could also be lifted.
-
Okay, guys, (Gals?), I need to bring this conversation back to what I perceive as "reality". And yes it's true, I don't remember much of the 60's, but that isn't relevant in this discussion of "reality", okay?
Okay?
ALL of these "solutions" either:
1. cost money,
2, cost time,
3. don't substantively change the relationship with the BLM
4. need more volunteers
5. AND MOST IMPORTANT - happen AFTER the "infraction", i.e., AFTER we have killed a kid on an errant mini quad, which, of course, given the discussion, would result in the driver getting a one year suspension (on a race course that no longer existed), while the kid gets "suspended" for eternity - doesn't seem real fair to me.
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, as we have done, apparently successfully, in the past?
No extra flags, no barriers, no extra work, no... etc., etc., etc. And any problems that occur only affect the person who "created" them in the first place.
It seems SO simple to me.
And to "centralize" the discussion a bit, ANY problems that running East to West might produce are far less than the "no problems" solution of no race course.
-
I would like to see a more visible track outline. Like the tall tubular black ones used sometimes at Bonnevile. Also different colored cones lining the shut down area.Speeds are getting higher, maybe its time to bring the track up to date.This is am amature sport we could use a little help.
-
I have not run at El Mirage for a few years, but I can see that is very easy to run out the back door. The racers who propose punishment for doing so are off-base because that occurs AFTER the infraction has happened. Too late. There needs to be measures to prevent it from happening in the first place. Better end of course markers, cone-ing down the course so it get narrower and finally ends with the racer busting through cones.
Nets are too dangerous and would end up with a lawsuit because of damage to vehicle and injuries to racer.
But the best proposal is aiming the course east to west as several have already suggested. The entire east end of the course could be fenced off so no civilians can enter the shut-down area. And of course there would be no question to the racer that he is in the shut down area as it becomes rougher and rougher and hills and bushes fill the windshield.
Don
-
But the best proposal is aiming the course east to west as several have already suggested. The entire east end of the course could be fenced off so no civilians can enter the shut-down area. And of course there would be no question to the racer that he is in the shut down area as it becomes rougher and rougher and hills and bushes fill the windshield.
Don
The only unanswered questions I would have regarding an east-to-west orientation is the potential for non-racers to be in the path of an over-shoot off of the lakebed, and the potential to cross into private property.
-
Jim this seems like you have all the answers and you are just trying to see if we can come up with questions that will fit them!!
-
....
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, ....
Dominant wind direction.
-
Okay, guys, (Gals?), I need to bring this conversation back to what I perceive as "reality". And yes it's true, I don't remember much of the 60's, but that isn't relevant in this discussion of "reality", okay?
Okay?
ALL of these "solutions" either:
1. cost money,
2, cost time,
3. don't substantively change the relationship with the BLM
4. need more volunteers
5. AND MOST IMPORTANT - happen AFTER the "infraction", i.e., AFTER we have killed a kid on an errant mini quad, which, of course, given the discussion, would result in the driver getting a one year suspension (on a race course that no longer existed), while the kid gets "suspended" for eternity - doesn't seem real fair to me.
What on earth is the resistance, to simply running the other way, as we have done, apparently successfully, in the past?
No extra flags, no barriers, no extra work, no... etc., etc., etc. And any problems that occur only affect the person who "created" them in the first place.
It seems SO simple to me.
And to "centralize" the discussion a bit, ANY problems that running East to West might produce are far less than the "no problems" solution of no race course.
Jim,
Before we get too wound up on this subject. I would like to read the minutes of the Board meeting for the November meet and see what they had to say. I have not received mine yet.
What happens when a kid crosses the race course and gets hit by a racer? It won't matter what direction we are running.
Tom G.
-
This is not a new problem. Around 1960 I was coming down the lake entrance road and met Tom Beatty, driving his tank up the road. He had lost his rear wheel only brakes and had coasted for miles. The incline of the entrance road finally stopped the tank.
A little historical perspective—SCTA pioneer Ak Miller stopped running El Mirage in the mid 1950s, because he though it was too dangerous. Ak went on to doing the safer(?) Mexican Road Race and the Pies Peak Hillclimb. When A.O. left 200 mph tanks were not common, now the C/Pro record is almost that fast. When both SCTA and RTA were running El Mirage, SCTA used a shorter course than they do now. The old timers knew that El Mo would not last forever, and were always looking for a replacement. SCTA ran 1/4 mile drags at Colton, 1/2 drags mile at Riverside International Raceway and on the dirt at Laguna Salada, 19 mi southwest of Mexicali, in Baja California. The lake bed is huge (over 10 miles wide and over 35 miles long), but it was too soft. If the 1960s board was still running things, SCTA would be the group promoting the Mojave Mile. How do I know this? I represented the Road Birds, at board meeting in the early '60, and was part of the group that checked-out Laguna Salada (Jim and Larry Lindsley, Griggs, Bill Smith, etc plus Bob Greene from Hot Rod mag).
Now on to the present. If someone can't walk & chew gum, he shouldn't get to drive. When I drove SCCA, I had to pass a CAA/FAA physical, does the SCTA require a physical now? They didn't when I ran.
How about cutting the course length to one mile? Maybe 4 wheel brakes on all cars? Maybe just stop running until you can find some pavement. Has anyone talked to the former George AFB people?
-
Damn, Sparky, you figured me out. Actually I had thought I had all the answers, but thought it would be prudent to see if there was a counter argument that provided a 100% solution while still going West to East.
Desotoman - yes we may still have the errant kid problem, but 1. the Big End would be further from the public, and 2. something that hasn't been mentioned here yet - the return road would now be on the south side, also further away from the public. MANY MANY of the support crews excitedly hammer it down the return road, a few hitting 35mph+ even after they've have been notified on the CB (that they forgot to turn up/on). You have to also consider that the errant kid would be taken out by a support crew. What are you going to do to slow them down? Nothing has worked so far. Do we do speed bumps? Take away records? Have a license up procedure for push truck drivers? Or what? Again most of those solutions are after the infraction or demand more time, and money from someone..
MM not to worry about landing on private property. As a "favor" to the racers, a few years back the BLM installed a "full Width" catch fence across that end of the lake
mtib - yes the wind would tend to blow dust onto the staging lanes.
Okay back to y'all (yes, even you, Sparky)
~( 8^(})
-
Why don't you use the Retention of Vehicle / and or parts rule
Change the rule to read incident instead of accident
Someone runs out the backdoor, it's an incident and just hang on to their vehicle until you work out what happened
I know it seems harsh, however, having no place to run time trails seems a lot harsher
G
-
No-one wants to give-up El Mirage Horsepower, aka as a tailwind. So running East to West isn't going to fly.
Why is it that when Jim Loving got dusted a while back, he dumped the laundry? Would everyone have done the same-thing? Would others have tried to out-run the dust?
What you have is a people problem. As Nortonist 592 has said: Tell that to Dannenfeltzer. He can stop quicker from 250+ than most of the 100 mph cars.
Why is that? Do you think that maybe the sharp guys don't have problems because they are still sharp? In pro racing if you lose a step, you either retire, or are forced out by the lack of a ride. In hobby-racing you can stick-around until you kill yourself, or an out-house :-o Dementia isn't something that the old like to talk about, but it happens—and it need to be discussed.
Back to you Jim.
-
What do the on-site BLM folks have to say when these incidents have occurred?
Can they write tickets to offenders?
-
Hey guys, it's so frick'in simple. Allow the BLM to give us more lakebed. It's a win-win. It will be safer for everyone and there is plenty of lakebed for off road enthusiasts.
-
It's always amazed me that hundreds bring their long-travel off-road vehicles out to El Mirage to ride all day on a flat surface.
Why does the BLM turn their backs when race vehicles are run during the week there. Yes, we all know that happens. Is it because of less personnel to oversee weekday traffic?
I could be wrong (me?), but as I see it, most fatalities at El Mirage are results of ultra-light crashes. And they don't have "run-down" areas.
-
What do the on-site BLM folks have to say when these incidents have occurred?
Can they write tickets to offenders?
Most federal bureaucracies have law enforcement divisions. The USForest service has armed Law Enforcement Rangers, with full police powers. The Forest Service LERs also have helicopters that they use for patrol. Since 1976 the BLM also has Law Enforcement Rangers https://www.blm.gov/nhp/pubs/brochures/law/index.htm
Could a BLM Law Enforcement Ranger arresting a backdoor violator, handcuffing them and taking them to the local lockup be a deterrent? A better deterrent than any SCTA issued penalty could ever be?
-
What do the on-site BLM folks have to say when these incidents have occurred?
Can they write tickets to offenders?
Most federal bureaucracies have law enforcement divisions. The USForest service has armed Law Enforcement Rangers, with full police powers. The Forest Service LERs also have helicopters that they use for patrol. Since 1976 the BLM also has Law Enforcement Rangers https://www.blm.gov/nhp/pubs/brochures/law/index.htm
Could a BLM Law Enforcement Ranger arresting a backdoor violator, handcuffing them and taking them to the local lockup be a deterrent? A better deterrent than any SCTA issued penalty could ever be?
What's in that stew?
JL222
-
It's always amazed me that hundreds bring their long-travel off-road vehicles out to El Mirage to ride all day on a flat surface.
During the 1960s Honda ran a You meet the nicest people on a Honda advertising campaign. Soon it wasn't just patch-holders riding motorcycles—non-scooter-tramps were riding Hondas, Kawasaki, Suzukis and Yamahas. All of a sudden most SCTA tow vehicle had a bed full of dirt bikes. It didn't take long before these bikes were interfering with the racing. Soon after the SCTA board issued rules to help control the problem :)
Stan Back, you really haven't lived until you've ridden a Triumph desert-sled through a pucker-bush at speed :) Been there and done that :-D
-
What's in that stew?
JL222
Dinty Moore Beef Stew is a favorite survival food of American Preppers. It has beef cubes. salty gravy and lots of fat. What's not to like :-D
-
What's in that stew?
JL222
Dinty Moore Beef Stew is a favorite survival food of American Preppers. It has beef cubes. salty gravy and lots of fat. What's not to like :-D
You or somebody must have added something.
JL222
-
Could a BLM Law Enforcement Ranger arresting a backdoor violator, handcuffing them and taking them to the local lockup be a deterrent? A better deterrent than any SCTA issued penalty could ever be?
Likely wouldn't be the first time something similar has happened to some of us. :oops:
If one believes that laws create deterrence incentives, that might just be the "ticket".
Paying a lawyer to go to Bakersfield - or Los Angeles - or Sacramento - usually the feds get to pick which court they argue in - to fight a Federal misdemeanor charge and the possibility of further Federal Government entanglement? I'd check my brakes and be sure I wasn't flying blind.
"Yes, your honor, I was driving flat out, but the dust was so bad, I couldn't see where to stop. Then my parachute didn't deploy properly, and my brakes - well, they couldn't hold a baby buggy on a 4% grade . . ."
Of course, then the question becomes "which statute" - or "statutes" - and the possibility of an unsympathetic judge shutting down the whole operation. Hemmings reported six instances in November - that would go into a court record as well, likely implicating SCTA.
Either way, the vehicle remains in an impound not overseen by "the Mayor", and it's not free parking.
Probably best to keep it "in house" - but in order to do that, it's probably best to stay "in bounds".
I think that if the current direction - while safer for the drivers and riders - puts unwaivered bystanders at risk, then switching the direction AWAY from the bystanders is a responsible change, and in this case, provides a heightened awareness on the part of those who have signed up to take the risk, and eliminates the possibility of overshooting into areas the BLM doesn't want us in.
-
You or somebody must have added something.
JL222
It wasn't me.
sofadriver asked: Can they write tickets to offenders?
I have some experience with Forest Service LERs. Myself and several other civilians were working on a trail restoration project in the Angeles National Forest. Some dirt-bikers arrived and started using their spinning rear tire to cause more damage. The Ranger we were working for was dissed when he tried stopping them. Not to worry, he got on his radio. Several minuets later two armed Law Enforcement Rangers arrived in their chopper. End of story.
In the real-world insulting me has no real consequences. Please re-read what Milwaukee Midget has to say about the BLM.
-
You or somebody must have added something.
JL222
It wasn't me.
sofadriver asked: Can they write tickets to offenders?
I have some experience with Forest Service LERs. Myself and several other civilians were working on a trail restoration project in the Angeles National Forest. Some dirt-bikers arrived and started using their spinning rear tire to cause more damage. The Ranger we were working for was dissed when he tried stopping them. Not to worry, he got on his radio. Several minuets later two armed Law Enforcement Rangers arrived in their chopper. End of story.
In the real-world insulting me has no real consequences. Please re-read what Milwaukee Midget has to say about the BLM.
Must have been a flat spot in the forest for the chopper to land and the bikers were in the flat spot to and you saw it happen?
-
JL222 - What do you think could be done to solve the problem of people running out the back door?
-
JL222 - What do you think could be done to solve the problem of people running out the back door?
BLM should give SCTA more run off area. 1/2 mile or more? Its only 8 days of the year.
Put up 4 ft orange signs made of card board or a 4 x 8 section of foam insulation with red led lights
4 x 8 Sections would have to be modified to let wind through our just big letter cut outs.
Sighs say STOP.
Put up the red ribbon with light weight sticks
Put up 2nd section to run through with cardboard cut out of a black and white patrol car.
Pull both chutes at inspection
Hand out flyers at registration with course lay out and shut off instructions
Any one powering through these should be suspended for at least a year
I'm sure the SCTA will come up with improvements and there is probably more good ideas
JL222
-
Must have been a flat spot in the forest for the chopper to land and the bikers were in the flat spot to and you saw it happen?
It was on a ridge-line west of Sierra Highway. In that part of Angeles National Forest off-road vehicle trails tend to follow ridge-lines.
I hate long boring stories, but you asked. I was a member of a four-wheel-drive club. We regularly helped the Forest Service maintain these trails, although we didn't use these trails. The trail were mainly used by the dirt-bike riders, not by four-wheeler's. Spinning Knobbies cut trenches, if these mini-trenches are not filled-in with rocks and compacted dirt, they become maxi-trenches during the next rainfall. During a wet winter trails can, and will, be destroyed.
I've lived a long and interesting life. I've been-there-and-done-that many, many times. I've known many people that you only read about in books/magazines (I've known both Dean Moon and John Holmes). If one of my stories appears to be over-the-top, just remember that I have no reason to lie.
-
One thing that some of the other organizations do is if you go faster than you were supposed to for a licensing pass is that you don't get a timing ticket. This plus losing eligibility for a record run might be an incentive to pay attention. As I said in an earlier post, I think a drive through in the driver's meeting should be mandatory no matter how experienced you think you are. Give drivers their stickers only after they have completed the drive through on the course.
-
chartreuse green cones after the balloons should do it
-
Thundersalt ...Did you see those signs and lights?
jl222
There are bright red flashing LEDs on top of the big giant fluorescent orange end markers that have always been there. The flashing LEDs have been there for a few events now. I easily spotted them on all of my 200+ mph runs this season.
Running off the west end of the lake bed into the pucker bushes is equally as dangerous as running into a net. A driver/rider would get seriously injured or killed. Neither are really legitimate options IMO.
-
DAM I had a great post that I lost!!
-
JL those were some good ideas
-
Its been an interesting read thus far that's for sure.
I will say this about one of the out the backdoor instances earlier this season that imho opinion the guy was a complete moron. He was still in the throttle well past the back door. His reasoning, he couldn't see. This was in a roadster that's gone well past 200 at both EM and Bonneville. This guy wasn't a rookie either. Im a friggen rookie and know that if I cant see to cut the power, dump the laundry and come to a safe stop. What the hell was that guys problem. That's not a lack of education that's just stupidity in my eyes.
I like Jims idea of turning the course around.
Another idea came to mind and I don't think its been brought up or maybe I missed it in between Sparky and JL's arguing. Funny how Troy was one of the out the back door violations in November. Yes I know it was a combination of breakage and other issues.
THe idea that came to mind is what about approaching the BLM about just completely closing the lake bed to anyone other than SCTA racers for the race days. So we have to pay a little more in entry fees in order for the BLM to be willing to close off the lake bed. Id rather pay a little extra for the 6 races a year than not have an option other than hit or miss Bonneville or hauling my car from AZ to Arkansas. Just a thought.
-
Tried to control myself all day but couldn't do it..."Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them......."
.........as he was driving out the back...................... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Didn’t see any flashing lights as both my chutes didn’t open and only had front by brakes at this meet. New pilot chutes bought new brakes bought and i didn’t get an official out the back door because i got back inside the cones quickly. I thought our conversation was on the down low.
-
What was the issue with the chutes?
If the pilots popped and didnt pull the chutes out-- you need to reorient the chutes so they will shoot them up or to the sides of the car ----you have to get them in to CLEAN AIR---not back into the dirty area--ie no slip steam right behind the car
-
What was the issue with the chutes?
If the pilots popped and didnt pull the chutes out-- you need to reorient the chutes so they will shoot them up or to the sides of the car ----you have to get them in to CLEAN AIR---not back into the dirty area--ie no slip steam right behind the car
Chutes are aimed up and to sides and always have been. Problems are fixed.
JL222
-
great---I learned that lesson almost the hard way---once at El M my primary pilot just bobbed along behind the car. We had not "cocked" the pilot to shoot out to the side. Rear facing camera picked that up.
-
Frankie---he must have had what I call the GOT TOOs ---- Neil called it target fixation!
You called for the correct behavior--- LIFT, slow down until you are at a speed the visibility warrants coming to a full stop if necessary.
-
For the May Elmo meet , have all drivers / riders complete a finish line orientation of the newest SCTA procedures and equipment updates at the finish line with a helmet sticker or wrist band showing that they have seen how and where to successfully stop . This orientation would have 10 to 15 rider / drivers at a time starting Friday , continuing through weekend as needed . STEVE ANDERSON '40 BANTAM #104 SCTA INSPECTOR 520 591 6318
-
Has the BLM been asked for what they see as a solution besides shutting down the meet?
-
Has the BLM been asked for what they see as a solution besides shutting down the meet?
I think their solution is for drivers NOT to go out the back door. I still think the solution is if you go out the back door for whatever reason you're done with El Mirage. Zero tolerance. It sounds like the BLM is getting very, very close to zero tolerance. The SCTA needs to be the same.
-
ZERO tolerance = Arresting Net is only for sure way with criminal tress pass f you drive around it
-
ZERO tolerance = Arresting Net is only for sure way with criminal tress pass f you drive around it
Criminal trespass ?? You can't even f....king spell it!!
jl222
-
Has the BLM been asked for what they see as a solution besides shutting down the meet?
I think their solution is for drivers NOT to go out the back door. I still think the solution is if you go out the back door for whatever reason you're done with El Mirage. Zero tolerance. It sounds like the BLM is getting very, very close to zero tolerance. The SCTA needs to be the same.
Nortonist... what kind of speeds do you have at El Mirage? In other words is there any chance of YOU going out the back door?
JL222
-
Please - gentlemen - a urination competition does nothing to advance Jim's discussion.
Has the BLM been asked for what they see as a solution besides shutting down the meet?
I'm curious as to what the BLM said, and to whom. I'm seeing accounts here claiming 4 offenses, Hemmings reports 6.
Does anyone here have a clear account of the details?
-
Tried to control myself all day but couldn't do it..."Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them......."
.........as he was driving out the back...................... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Didn’t see any flashing lights as both my chutes didn’t open and only had front by brakes at this meet. New pilot chutes bought new brakes bought and i didn’t get an official out the back door because i got back inside the cones quickly. I thought our conversation was on the down low.
Well......sorry but it was low hanging fruit 😜......We Need to all work together to solve the problem but your pops is being combative. Let’s work together on this
-
You go around any gate or barrier that the BLM puts up and you are subject to Criminal Trespass citation.
That is what he likes to do--- he lets himself get all riled up---but he is right I am a very creative speller---almost didn't get out of college because of it---LOL
-
Please - gentlemen - a urination competition does nothing to advance Jim's discussion.
Has the BLM been asked for what they see as a solution besides shutting down the meet?
I'm curious as to what the BLM said, and to whom. I'm seeing accounts here claiming 4 offenses, Hemmings reports 6.
Does anyone here have a clear account of the details?
The total was 6, not that it matters. 1 can end the whole deal. The accounting is in the SCTA minutes. 2 people got 1 year suspensions. It's all in the minutes, along with our first steps to try & appease the BLM.
-
Just had a thought...... Bob at the start used to ask: Where you going? To the five. Or to the balloons . Maybe Jill and Jim need to ask every competitor: Where you going throw the laundry? If the don’t answer “ at the balloons” they get pulled off
-
Tried to control myself all day but couldn't do it..."Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them......."
.........as he was driving out the back...................... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Didn’t see any flashing lights as both my chutes didn’t open and only had front by brakes at this meet. New pilot chutes bought new brakes bought and i didn’t get an official out the back door because i got back inside the cones quickly. I thought our conversation was on the down low.
Well......sorry but it was low hanging fruit 😜......We Need to all work together to solve the problem but your pops is being combative. Let’s work together on this
Combative? Like calling out Beef stew for getting the BLM helicopter after the dirt bikes for spinning their tires on an
OFF ROAD VEHICLE TRAIL he was working on. Then saying he has no reason to lie? Then saying [ well you read his post] reminds me of a Johnny Cash song.
I noticed you haven't replied about seeing the signs and flashing lights.
Your not sorry you just wanted to knock us down.
JL222
-
Combative? Like calling out Beef stew for getting the BLM helicopter after the dirt bikes for spinning their tires on an
OFF ROAD VEHICLE TRAIL he was working on.
Jay El, you remind me of a Christmas Goose. I didn't call out the LER chopper, the Forest Ranger I was working for, made the call. The reason he called was that they were tearing-up repairs, on a closed trail. Sorta like driving fourwheelers across a flooded Rusty Dusty, like was common in the winter during the 1960s. Today the BLM Rangers stop that sorta sh*t.
Then saying he has no reason to lie? Then saying [ well you read his post] reminds me of a Johnny Cash song.
I know Barnyard Jim and and Weslake Bill slightly. I haven't spoke to either of them in 5-6 years. So I have no dogs in this fight— but I did spend ten years racing, tech inspecting, representing my club at board meetings, etc in the 1960s. 2017 is the eightieth anniversary of the Senior Citizens Timing Association, lets not eff it up by a Senior Citizen having a Senior Moment while trying to find either the 'chute or the ineffective two wheel brakes. If someone kills a PFC (poor effing civilian), that will start a feces storm like you've never seen before. And the Lawyers wiil be as thick as Locust, looking for SCTA members with deep pockets..
Jay El, you be sure to have a nice day :)
-
JL you may be assuming that this is all a personal attack---you are know to be thinned skin--- and you just maybe are being trolled---sorta like poking a frog just to see him jump---the poker has nothing against the frog they just like to see him jump..
-
JL you may be assuming that this is all a personal attack---you are know to be thinned skin--- and you just maybe are being trolled---sorta like poking a frog just to see him jump---the poker has nothing against the frog they just like to see him jump..
Until about five minuets ago, I had no idea who seventy-seven year old John Andrew Langlo, who lives in Clovis, CA, is. Why would I troll him ??? Now that I know who he is, it's plain to see he's just a harmless old-man, who let's his mouth overload his a**. I will not respond to any more of his senior moments.
Sparky, I'm real, I've done all I've said I've done. I've held the records I've said I've held. And I have nothing against your horse.
-
Where can we see the SCTA December minutes?
-
Beefie---Thanks for posting---I didn't say you were trolling him, you are new to this forum, you have no history with JL.
but others do---I might be guilty of it---one are two others might may be--this is not his first rodeo-- :-D that is the reason I just take it all with a grain of Salt---just you seem prepared to do----I in no way indicated you were not for real, you brought some good points and history to the table. Why are you being so defensive.
-
fastesthonda_jim, you started this 9 page thread... have we answered your questions? were you asking in an official capacity? if not, would some officials like to add to the discussion?
m
-
Why are you being so defensive.
Once-apon-a-time a sports writer said" The best defense, is a good offense. I believe him, so for the last fifty plus years I've trid my best to be the most offensive person in the room :)
-
Not intending to be a troll or knock anyone down. Just an attempt at levity. Arguing solves nothing..... I did see the lights (which really doesn't matter since I don't have a problem stopping). Every pass I've made between 212 and 218, by studying my racepak data, I start my u turn less than 6/10's after I pop the chute (without front brakes). I don't buy any excuses short of passing out. Brake failure? I question workmanship. Chute failure? not paying attention when you pack them. JMO!! Don't want to fight. This thread needs to get back on track to solutions.
PS: Note to self: I gotta quit posting after drinking
-
ts :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: LOL
-
JL you may be assuming that this is all a personal attack---you are know to be thinned skin--- and you just maybe are being trolled---sorta like poking a frog just to see him jump---the poker has nothing against the frog they just like to see him jump..
Sparky.... As I own a car that has gone slightly out the back door but came back in and I read post about a 5 year ban,
criminal trespass, confiscation, extended to Bville ECT. I do take it personal
Particularly when someone post these sanctions that have no chance of going out the back door.
It also bothers me that most everyone else is fine with the above sanctions.
Looking up criminal trespass, the quoted best answer was '' trespass with the intent to commit a crime''
Beef Stew I might be old but I'm far from harmless. And you do know where I live.
JL222
-
Nortonist... what kind of speeds do you have at El Mirage? In other words is there any chance of YOU going out the back door?
JL222
[/quote]
What sort of speeds? Slow. But funnily enough my entry costs the same as if I went 300. There is a chance I could go out that I could go out the back door. There's also a chance I could win the lottery. Both are about the same. But that's not the point.
The point is if the BLM shuts down El Mirage because someone goes out the back door it affects everyone. Do you think the BLM will give a rats whether the car that went out the back door is a 120 mph car or a 300 mph car?
-
In my never ending search for new LSR venues,
I've found what seems to me to be excessive attention to what I feel is oversize shutdown room. IMVHOFWIW.
My emphasis in my limited experience in LSR at the LTA in Maine was always Safety first, so the following is based on that premise.
Let me start by saying stopping on other than pavement a problem,but.....
How many guys actually use the BHP in the cars (or bikes) to brake, as opposed to just brakes and chutes ? All about preserving the drivetrain seems to be the practice.
NHRA FDs and FCs stop pretty quick. Modern supercars like Lambo, Ferrari, and big Vettes all stop from 200mph well under 300 ft on pavement in street legal cars. Putting as much attention into brakes on all four corners in a purpose-built racer 1st and leaving it in gear might solve a lot of the El Mirage problem. That and the biggest chute practical, no ?
This could also make a few previous sites considered "too Short" viable now. I've previously run this by LSR people I highly respect and have gotten mixed reviews. Some concepts seem to be written in stone.
So I post this here, enlighten me.
...I appreciate the constructive efforts on these forums,discussion a necessity as we are running out of LSR.
Bob W.. SCTA #343,
bwana343@aol.com
-
In my never ending search for new LSR venues,
I've found what seems to me to be excessive attention to what I feel is oversize shutdown room. IMVHOFWIW.
My emphasis in my limited experience in LSR at the LTA in Maine was always Safety first, so the following is based on that premise.
Let me start by saying stopping on other than pavement a problem,but.....
How many guys actually use the BHP in the cars (or bikes) to brake, as opposed to just brakes and chutes ? All about preserving the drivetrain seems to be the practice.
NHRA FDs and FCs stop pretty quick. Modern supercars like Lambo, Ferrari, and big Vettes all stop from 200mph well under 300 ft on pavement in street legal cars. Putting as much attention into brakes on all four corners in a purpose-built racer 1st and leaving it in gear might solve a lot of the El Mirage problem. That and the biggest chute practical, no ?
This could also make a few previous sites considered "too Short" viable now. I've previously run this by LSR people I highly respect and have gotten mixed reviews. Some concepts seem to be written in stone.
So I post this here, enlighten me.
...I appreciate the constructive efforts on these forums,discussion a necessity as we are running out of LSR.
Bob W.. SCTA #343,
bwana343@aol.com
Great post!! Too many people here are hidebound (having an inflexible or ultraconservative character ) and want to stick to the old-ways. When Nolan White died at Bonneville in 2002 http://articles.latimes.com/2002/oct/22/local/me-white22 I mentioned to a multiple hat holder that front brakes may have saved him, and was told that brakes on an LSR car were there only to put the car on the trailer :-o
-
That's Interesting, That You bring Nolan into this, as His car indeed had front brakes, One on each wheel in fact.
-
That's Interesting, That You bring Nolan into this, as His car indeed had front brakes, One on each wheel in fact.
Thanks for the update SPDRACER. The last time I saw Nolan White, he and Jack Lufkin were running two seat streamliners, aka Sports Racing class.
The point of my post was that a two-hatter didn't approve of brakes on LSR cars. That still stands.
I apologies for besmirching Nolan White, it was not intentional ...sorry.
-
No-one wants to give-up El Mirage Horsepower, aka as a tailwind. So running East to West isn't going to fly.
Why is it that when Jim Loving got dusted a while back, he dumped the laundry? Would everyone have done the same-thing? Would others have tried to out-run the dust?
What you have is a people problem. As Nortonist 592 has said: Tell that to Dannenfeltzer. He can stop quicker from 250+ than most of the 100 mph cars.
Why is that? Do you think that maybe the sharp guys don't have problems because they are still sharp? In pro racing if you lose a step, you either retire, or are forced out by the lack of a ride. In hobby-racing you can stick-around until you kill yourself, or an out-house :-o Dementia isn't something that the old like to talk about, but it happens—and it need to be discussed.
Back to you Jim.
Do you think Fred has never been in the pucker bushes? Guess again, shit happens and we try to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
-
Please let's not get into an argument of who goes faster than who, as that does not matter.
Getting stopped before going out the back door is all that matters.
What about the time the rider fell off his motorcycle, yet the motorcycle keep going, and going and going until someone helped it fall over with their truck.
Tom G.
-
Well as of a letter dated Dec 1, SCTA is now on probation for 1 year with the BLM due to the incidents that happened at the Nov meet.
In reading a copy of the letter sent to Dan Chilson, president of the Gear Grinders, I saw one of the reasons given to Pat as to why one of the drivers went out the back door "the driver thought he was at Bonneville and still had more shut down time" Seriously? Are you friggen kidding me? Im sorry but as a licensed SCTA driver strapped into a race car if you cant tell the difference between El Mirage and Bonneville while at EM you have absolutely no business racing, period. While Ive never raced at Bonneville, Ive been there for SPeedweek and been down the long course after the drivers meeting. Other than a flat long expanse of racing surface, the two look nothing alike, nothing.
Hopefully they will come up with something in the months to come to save our asses from losing El Mirage
-
Frankie, what are the terms of the probation?
-
Well as of a letter dated Dec 1, SCTA is now on probation for 1 year with the BLM due to the incidents that happened at the Nov meet.
In reading a copy of the letter sent to Dan Chilson, president of the Gear Grinders, I saw one of the reasons given to Pat as to why one of the drivers went out the back door "the driver thought he was at Bonneville and still had more shut down time" Seriously? Are you friggen kidding me? Im sorry but as a licensed SCTA driver strapped into a race car if you cant tell the difference between El Mirage and Bonneville while at EM you have absolutely no business racing, period. While Ive never raced at Bonneville, Ive been there for SPeedweek and been down the long course after the drivers meeting. Other than a flat long expanse of racing surface, the two look nothing alike, nothing.
Hopefully they will come up with something in the months to come to save our asses from losing El Mirage
I'm not buying it either, everyone knows b'ville is so ruff
you gotta tuck your hemi's back after each run
-
I'm not buying it either, everyone knows b'ville is so ruff
you gotta tuck your hemi's back after each run
You know they have surgery to fix that Subaru ;-)
-
FYI . . .
-
7799---spot on :cheers:
-
FYI . . .
Thank you.
-
FYI . . .
Read Stan Back's bottom link.
The Gear Grinders Racing Event??
What happened to SCTA Event'
What's going on?
JL222
-
FYI . . .
Read Stan Back's bottom link.
The Gear Grinders Racing Event??
What happened to SCTA Event'
What's going on?
JL222
John, does your club supply you with any information? It has been a requirement of the BLM that a club host each meet for over 4 years now....
-
FYI . . .
Read Stan Back's bottom link.
The Gear Grinders Racing Event??
What happened to SCTA Event'
What's going on?
JL222
John, does your club supply you with any information? It has been a requirement of the BLM that a club host each meet for over 4 years now....
No...Sidewinders.
Why that requirement, what about insurance?
Did the SCTA get a letter of non compliance?
JL222
-
FYI . . .
Read Stan Back's bottom link.
The Gear Grinders Racing Event??
What happened to SCTA Event'
What's going on?
JL222
John, does your club supply you with any information? It has been a requirement of the BLM that a club host each meet for over 4 years now....
No...Sidewinders.
Why that requirement, what about insurance?
Did the SCTA get a letter of non compliance?
JL222
Call your president Ron and have him fill you in.
-
"Comments:...
.
.
.
. Course well marked.
.
.
Monitor Salazar"
-
" BLM Probationary Status Letter.pdf "
That's a very serious warning. Paragraphs 8 & 9 say it all. Sounds like "one more time and you're outta here".
This is a dire situation and not the time to worry whether a participant "likes it" or gets his feelings hurt.
I suggest;
1. A request should be made for another 1/2 mile of runoff space.
2. Bigger, brighter light bars at finish line.
3. At registration, racers must sign a statement that clearly states the rules for shutdown. This should be boldly printed on a separate page. If it were me running the show, I'd make everyone read it out loud before signing.
4.The starter should hold a similar, easy to read sign directly in front of every driver/ rider and they must acknowledge with a clear nod of the head or thumbs-up before being given the course.
-
Francis suggested yesterday that maybe inflatable checkered flag, cone shaped pylons, like at the air races for turns--much smaller --maybe 10'-12' on each side of the finish line. They would need to be that high so they could seen from the start line.
-
All the markings in the world will do NOTHING for equipment failures, Non-English speakers not understanding anything, and completely selfish Jerks doing what they want.....
I have a multi-level system in mind that will work:
1-Well marked finish line is a given as is better Rookie training
2- Distance count-down signs that begin just after the finish line 5-4-3-2-1-0
3- At the "Zero" marker,,, orange plastic soft netting across the course to entangle the vehicle
4- At "Zero" plus 1 (distance to be determined) Real Barrier Netting with parachutes that deploy as per Bonneville
5- At "Zero" plus 2 and just inside the out of bounds line,,, a Tractor-Trailer Lowboy rig with a Bulldozer sitting on it. It would be quite the motivator for perfectly functional
braking systems that have redundancy built in....
We might have to reduce our current course length to One Mile, and used the .3 mile for additional stopping distance....
We get serious or we get gone,,,, It is up to us in the SCTA to make it work.....
Thoughts ?
-
With the severity of the situation, maybe turning the track around isnt such a bad idea. Better than not running.
-
All the markings in the world will do NOTHING for equipment failures, Non-English speakers not understanding anything, and completely selfish Jerks doing what they want.....
I have a multi-level system in mind that will work:
1-Well marked finish line is a given as is better Rookie training
2- Distance count-down signs that begin just after the finish line 5-4-3-2-1-0
3- At the "Zero" marker,,, orange plastic soft netting across the course to entangle the vehicle
4- At "Zero" plus 1 (distance to be determined) Real Barrier Netting with parachutes that deploy as per Bonneville
5- At "Zero" plus 2 and just inside the out of bounds line,,, a Tractor-Trailer Lowboy rig with a Bulldozer sitting on it. It would be quite the motivator for perfectly functional
braking systems that have redundancy built in....
We might have to reduce our current course length to One Mile, and used the .3 mile for additional stopping distance....
We get serious or we get gone,,,, It is up to us in the SCTA to make it work.....
Thoughts ?
My thoughts are that:
1. The SCTA and the BLM would never approve anything that would injure or kill a participant.
2. The first time a participant was injured or killed by a barrier as you describe, their attorneys would own the SCTA.
The solution must be one that allows for bonafide runaway vehicles or driver/riders having medical problems.
That is why the solution is to just turn the track around and the SCTA can OWN the backdoor and never allow spectators in that area.
Don
-
I'd like to throw this out for discussion. I'm not married to it, but we seem to be grasping for solutions, and this probably wouldn't be a total fix.
A radio controlled stop light installed in every vehicle operated by an SCTA official at the end of the course. Someone blows past the end too hot, the official hits the switch to let the racer know they're done.
If runaways are the concern, make it a two-channel radio, put in a relay and make the second channel a kill switch.
They get the red light, they're expected to slow down. They show no intention of slowing down, the official shuts 'em down.
Actually, the idea of a remote kill switch might be good in the event of an accident where the engine is still running and the driver is unconcious. Still quite a few mechanical fuel pumps around.
Wouldn't work at Bonneville where you have more than one course - might work at Elmo?
The one argument I won't accept is that it would be too expensive. If you're forbidden to race, then you're sitting on piles of cash that has virtually no value.
-
donpearsall said: The solution must be one that allows for bonafide runaway vehicles or driver/riders having medical problems.
I'd like to throw this out for discussion. I'm not married to it, but we seem to be grasping for solutions, and this probably wouldn't be a total fix.
A radio controlled stop light installed in every vehicle operated by an SCTA official at the end of the course. Someone blows past the end too hot, the official hits the switch to let the racer know they're done.
If runaways are the concern, make it a two-channel radio, put in a relay and make the second channel a kill switch.
They get the red light, they're expected to slow down. They show no intention of slowing down, the official shuts 'em down.
Actually, the idea of a remote kill switch might be good in the event of an accident where the engine is still running and the driver is unconcious. Still quite a few mechanical fuel pumps around.
Wouldn't work at Bonneville where you have more than one course - might work at Elmo?
The one argument I won't accept is that it would be too expensive. If you're forbidden to race, then you're sitting on piles of cash that has virtually no value.
fastesthonda_jim had a GPS speedometer on the Barnyard Bearcat about 10 years ago.
Drivers and crews have used cellphones during runs at Bonneville.
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved the Apple Watch for monitoring strokes, heart-attacks, whatever.
F1 teams monitor all 20 cars in a race, and can tell their drivers if the car is having a problem.
The technology exists for both the race teams and the SCTA to know the speed of the car (has s/he lifted, is s/he still accelerating), the drivers health (has s/he had a heart-attack), to killing the engine and releasing 'chute, on multiple cars on multiple courses.
Because all of this tech already exists, it should be relatively easy to make a single program that ties it all together. From voice communications with the driver to controlling a remote kill-switch, if the driver is incapacitated.
-
Since starting to read this thread, I had forgotten all about the fact that some motorsports already use radio-control kill switches. Monster truck shows is one example- contestants and all other personnel have gotten quite accustomed to it. And of course in pulling, kill switches tethered to the sled have been there since day one.
What would the primary objections be at El Mirage to remote kill switches?
-
Why in the world is an arresting net acceptable in drag racing and not to us? I agree with MIDGET that just because some ideas cost some more money that they should not be considered.
Pylons that don't blow over and could be seen from the start line
Safety STOP NET.
More to come:
I would suggest that SCTA come up with a very proactive Safety program for all volunteers, cars, bikes, DRIVERS and crew members.
The first meet the car or bike attends each year----- everyone and thing be treated absolutely like a new car with a rookie driver.
on the first controlled pass have a camera inside the car recording driver and cockpit area---dust in drivers visibility area or driver malfunction---clear up the issues before that seasons comp lis. is signed off on--
EXPECTING lots of incoming ---but I wish to be able to keep racing!!!!!!!!! sparky
-
. . . as for running the other way -- past the pucker bushes (not removable -- we can't even remove colored glass in that area) that would certainly cause more injuries to the drivers (riders), you come up suddenly on a public (dirt) road and into private property.
-
Sounds like the perfect place to put the safety catch net.... choose the net or the bush.... both come with a little pucker....
:cheers:
Have we arrived at :dhorse: stage yet? Looks like time for some corrective measure before the BLM forces the SCTA out...
-
NHRA uses 3 things to stop cars:
Sand trap.
Catch net.
RF shut down and chute release. See electrimotion.com, Safety Products.
To me the RF is a minimum addition. The cost isn't a show stopper. The net would be a bonus.
POPS
-
POPS that makes a lot of sense!!!!!!!!!!
we need a one with two channels 1st for fuel and ign. the 2nd. for chute
if you get YOUR the chute out before the first wire doesn't shut down ign.
-
I can just see it now. You are well on your way to breaking your rival's record big time, and 1/4 mile before the finish line he presses the shut-down button he cloned. Oh too bad for you...equipment malfunction.
Don
-
Hi, Don,
Monitoring cheating is well within the purview of the SCTA. Monitoring idiocy, on the other hand, has proven elusive.
But monitoring cheating stays in-house. Idiocy winds up involving the BLM.
Seeing as there is an off the shelf product that could probably be made to work, that would let everybody continue to race in the direction they would prefer to go, and for the 1.3 mile course length, the question then becomes:
"Would you rather deal with the SCTA, or the BLM?"
We can bitch about cheating when it happens. But if you're not permitted to race, then we can't bitch about cheating . . . :wink:
-
The BLM has the authority to impose fines on anyone breaking their laws. Including unsafe speed.
-
I can just see it now. You are well on your way to breaking your rival's record big time, and 1/4 mile before the finish line he presses the shut-down button he cloned. Oh too bad for you...equipment malfunction.
Don
That's a really lame excuse for not using remote shutdown [& possibly chute deploy].
How about some legitimate reasons? Let's hear them.
-
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
Remote shutdown sounds reasonable, but opens up a host of issues...
What about bikes? Cutting a motor at speed could easily induce a tank slapper.
At what point do you implement the shutdown?
Who makes the decision?
Should it be automatic?
Never mind cheating by a competitor, a defeat switch inside the cockpit would be the easiest thing to rig, and as such, the remote wouldn't stop someone wanting an extra long run (granted it would be their last).
Any suggestion that compares El Mirage to a dedicated drag strip or that includes huge (and permanent or even just heavy) infrastructure investments are not going to happen. Volunteer organizations being what they are, unless you want to double or triple your entry fee.
Earlier I was against reversing direction, but in looking back at the 6 events this year, we had tail winds for the first 3 and headwinds for the final 3, so it would be a wash. As far as a competitor getting injured or dying in a reverse direction run into the pucker brush or the fence before Callaway's, better one of us than a spectator. We sign a release, and have to have some expectation that death could be the result of any run we make.
Reversing direction, together with some form of automatic motor shutoff so at least vehicles are not hitting the fence under power may be the cheapest, easiest and most effective solution.
-
How about a sniper? :cheers:
Wayno
-
after several serious mishaps with trains I know that the FRA is working toward systems that come into play in the event of Human malfunction.
I cant imagine that we will escape that kind of thinking:
yearly and meet training of all---course vols, drivers, riders, crew
Something to help the operator know where he is:
finish line pylons---that can be seen from the start line and don't blow down
count down markers white with black before finish line, black with white after the finish
something that stops power transmission to the ground
automatic braking of some sort
safety stop barrier of some sort
We are going to have to present a comprehensive plan to the B L M to show them we are working on our part when we ask for the additional shut down area---oh by the way include a ASK for a citation to be issued if any one enters the newly awarded SAFETY Area
-
www.electrimotion.com
Go to their safety tab and check out the systems.
The systems they sell are automated, but it's my bet that they could be set up to be triggered manually or by an electric eye.
I watched the video as will - while the install is intended for dragstrip applications, they're battery operated and, I would think, could be easily made to work in temporary situation utilizing nothing more difficult than a pair of sawhorses.
I see where bikes should probably be excluded from ignition shut-down, but could easily integrate a dashlight warning triggered by the transmitter/receiver.
-
I can just see it now. You are well on your way to breaking your rival's record big time, and 1/4 mile before the finish line he presses the shut-down button he cloned. Oh too bad for you...equipment malfunction.
Don
I was thinking the same at first, but, the switch needs to be in the hands of SCTA pres and/or race director only. At elmo no one can tell your on a record run as no speeds are announced till after the run. Still not sure if I like the idea, if it can be hacked.....
As far as running east to west, I say no. We need to take control of the whole west end that we use (temp orange plastic fencing?), have more roving patrols (with light bars) and charge spectators and RV'ers at a gate. This will at least control spectators and traffic as noted by BLM
-
NHRA has automatic cutoff devices on all the fuel and alcohol cars that will automatically kill the mag, shut the fuel off and throw the laundry out if it isn't all done by a certain point in the shutdown area. Not sure what that would do to a bike but for cars its a no brainer. Some crew chiefs have a remote control switch for their cars that if they see a hole out or something else a wry they can shut down the car from the starting line
-
NHRA has automatic cutoff devices on all the fuel and alcohol cars that will automatically kill the mag, shut the fuel off and throw the laundry out if it isn't all done by a certain point in the shutdown area. Not sure what that would do to a bike but for cars its a no brainer. Some crew chiefs have a remote control switch for their cars that if they see a hole out or something else a wry they can shut down the car from the starting line
And I have heard stories of big
TF multi car teams shutting one team member off early in favor of the other team member :-o
-
May or may not be true. But I don't see how that has any application here.
-
We need to join CORVA as a chapter --requiring all racers to join and encourage all SCTA members to join---they have 50 year history of helping maintain access to public lands with OFF ROAD vehicles and bikes.
-
May or may not be true. But I don't see how that has any application here.
And that right there is a prime example of why I don't post much any more on this site :roll: .........Just adding to the conversation. Thanks for being the thread police.......
-
It may be difficult to get a useable course going from east to west. In my years of course prep duty it seems that the part of the lake bed we currently use for the shut down area is bumpier, has more pot holes, has more potato chips and the top is looser than the area we are using to accelerate on now.
-
NHRA has automatic cutoff devices on all the fuel and alcohol cars that will automatically kill the mag, shut the fuel off and throw the laundry out if it isn't all done by a certain point in the shutdown area. Not sure what that would do to a bike but for cars its a no brainer. Some crew chiefs have a remote control switch for their cars that if they see a hole out or something else a wry they can shut down the car from the starting line
And I have heard stories of big
TF multi car teams shutting one team member off early in favor of the other team member :-o
Rumors abound, but it has clearly happened. I always go back to Ford at Le Mans in '66 with respect to stories like that.
The flip-side is the thought of other racers messing up a competitor's run with a modified garage door opener.
I think here, we're talking about an existential threat to the sport on the part of the BLM.
Which is the bigger threat - the BLM shutting it down completely, or somebody building a transmitter capable of shutting down a competitor in an amateur sport with no prize money?
If this technology is available, and the BLM finds out about it, and the SCTA doesn't even look into it, the BLM could make a reasonably valid argument that the racers aren't taking their safety concerns seriously.
The same might be said for the insurance underwriters:
"Hi, Lloyds of London? Yes, I represent a group of people who drive really fast across the desert, but due to the landlord's discontent with our safety procedures, we're now on probation with the Department of the Interior. Can you help us?"
I think overseeing cheating is something SCTA can do, and should be held to task for. Fighting the Feds and being the apologist for knuckleheads is a battle I don't think the SCTA can win.
-
What is meant by"Short Coarsing"
-
FH-J I notice you have not posted any since SB attached the letter from the BLM---any of your predetermined answers you would like to withdraw?
A CATCH NET is the only thing that may let us race for the foreseeable future. It has the lowest chance of failure, which means it gives us the best chance to continue racing!!!
Big PYLONS on each side of the finish line, that you see from the start line, and a big fine if you get in it, will help folks stay out of the CATCH NET.
LOTS of ways to fund this.
-
NHRA uses 3 things to stop cars:
Sand trap.
Catch net.
RF shut down and chute release. See electrimotion.com, Safety Products.
To me the RF is a minimum addition. The cost isn't a show stopper. The net would be a bonus.
POPS
Better have a fuel shutoff on Nitro cars, no ignition [ plugs could still be glowing] and full throttle fuel = still going, big bang or both.
Motorcycle into catch net = injury and lawsuit.
JL222
-
Have any motorcycles ever 'gone out of bounds'?
-
Out of all of you who are posting here, how many of you have had to stop a car(in bounds) at El Mirage with a malfunctioning chute?
We experienced that on our first run on Saturday in November and were able to stop without going out of bounds, and I'm no world class driver...
-
:dhorse:
JL why do you assume that just because a rider or driver fails their first and most important responsibility: bring a properly prepared vehicle for the course and conditions ---and operate it in a safe manner as course and conditions allow.
They are going to follow that mistake with another---make every rider go down and personally touch the net and sign a statement that they know where they are going to be stopped if they fail to stop themselves.
----You hit the catch net --you failed somewhere as a driver/rider or crew----lots and lots of folks have had issues and not gone out the back---the catch net is there to help you comply with the BLM restrictions---
I know of some who have and have never returned---because they were invited to---oh by the way-- I have come close with my old car---built another and made sure I complied with every "suggestion" --we had well documented visibility issues---we changed the car in ways I really didn't want to but we addressed and solved the issues..
I want 12'-15' pylons and a catch net---because I want to be able to keep running at EL M---A CATCH NET catches the failures --and EXCUSES----so that we all can keep racing.
After reading that letter for the 3rd time---my suggestion is--- we all get our heads out of the sand whether it is in your cockpit or you have it suck in the sand behind some pucker bush---open our eyes---and deal with reality---we can have no more out the backs and continue to race at EL M that letter says as much!!
-
Sparky, can you post the letter so we can all see what the BLM has asked for?
-
Click on the link in reply #151.
Pete
-
Thanks Pete
-
Click on the link in reply #151.
Pete
What's confusing is the letter is addressed to the gear grinders as the permit holders of the event, not the SCTA.
Paragraph #4 mentions Gear Grinders again.
#6 talks about red lights at finish line. Is there red lights at finish line and back door line.
I think it's to much responsibility to hold SCTA clubs for all the conditions to hold a meet.
JL222
-
Text of the letter:
In reply Refer To: DEC - 1 2017
2930 (P)
LLCAD08000.41
Certified Mail 7016 2140 0000 2164 7070
Dan Chilson
Gear Grinders Racing Club
1625 Lakewood Special Recreation Permit (SRP) Upland, CA 91784 CA680-SR 18-02
Dear Mr. Chilson:
The attached performance evaluation is for your Speed Trials event held in El Mirage OHV Area on November 11-12, 2017. You are determined to be in Probationary Performance status due to failure of following the Operating Plan that you submitted for the event and the BLM Special Recreation Permit (SRP) stipulations. The following deficiencies were identified and corrective action is needed prior to the start of the next Southern California Timing Association event in May 2018.
BLM Monitor Salazar reported that two different cars (#1515 and #5861) did not have tarps under their vehicles in pit row. Your operating plan states under 2.7.1 that "Tarps are required under each vehicle in the pit area."
BLM Monitor Salazar had to speak to spectators "on motorcycles and a quad about traveling down the course inside the cones" on Saturday Nov. 11, 2017, and on Sunday Nov. 12, 2017, "tower side: talked to spectators driving a white car down the cones inside the course." According to your operating plan on page 15 under Course Control, "We have 8 fixed patrol vehicles on the pit side of the buffer zone and 8 fixed patrol vehicles on the spectator side of the buffer zone... Their prime responsibility is to observe each vehicles progress on the course and to report any incidents to the Chief Timer. More importantly, they are to report any spectators who might get into our buffer zones...the Chief Timer will then direct either or both a roving patrol or a fixed patrol onto the buffer zone or actual course to handle the incident."
The BLM SRP Permit stipulations state: #21 — "Permittee is responsible for stationing monitors and/or post signs at road intersections, prohibiting public access, where the general public is likely to access the race course" and #25 — "The permittee shall contain and monitor the spectator areas to ensure the safety of the spectators and the race participants. The permittee shall keep spectators from leaving the boundaries of the spectator areas." Gear Grinder staff did not report nor handle these incidents. Mitigation measures must be in place to ensure spectator safety.
Four vehicles went out of bounds at this event. Three vehicles on Saturday Nov. 11, 2017, and one vehicle on Sunday Nov 12, 2017. On Saturday at 11:12 am, #299 went a few 100 feet outside the back door extension on the return side. Driver did not feel the chute deploy so he pulled for a second chute but still ended up outside the course. SCTA official Rick stated that "the car will be red tagged and will not be allowed to run anymore today."
Saturday at I I am, #1205 goes outside the course boundary at low speeds on the return side. SCTA officials push the vehicle back onto the course and SCTA official Rick red tags the vehicle. Saturday at 1 :47 pm, #351 went way outside the back door extension approximately a 6th of a mile. SCTA President Pat states that "the driver thought he was at Bonneville and still had more shut down time." The vehicle will be red tagged and the driver will have to go in front of the board. BLM Monitor Salazar voiced her concerns to Pat about the severity of the race car going out of the course boundary at such a high speed (with no chute pulled), and not stopping until it was far outside the back door extension with all the spectators that were out there that day. Pat stated that "SCTA was very concerned also and would discuss at the next board meeting." SCTA announces over the radio at 2:03 pm that any driver going outside the course boundary will pay a hefty fine. Sunday Nov 12, 2017, finish line had no red light bar only a red beacon on each side. SCTA President Pat stated that the "light bar was damaged when the course was moved, so SCTA purchased two red flashing beacons and installed extra balloons at the finish line."
Sunday at 07:13 am driver's meeting coveted everything along with extra emphasis on the back door issues from Saturday and that penalties will follow. Sunday 07:25 am SCTA Official Rick stated that "the driver's of both the vehicles that went out the back door extension on Saturday said they saw the extra balloons at the back door and though it was the timing light." Sunday 12:17 pm, #528 went out the back door. SCTA President Pat stated that "the car had a chute failure."
The BLM SRP Permit stipulations state: #19 "Permittee shall monitor the race events to prevent damage from course cutting and participants traveling off course. The permittee shall establish racecourse checkpoints to prevent short coursing. Any participant caught short coursing or passing in no passing areas will be disqualified by race officials. The permittee will be responsible for keeping contestants on the designated route/course. Participants who violate any of the mitigation measures or stipulations shall be disqualified from the race. Additionally, any support personnel found in violation of the stipulations, associated with a participant shall result in the disqualification of that participant."
Corrective action is mandatory and continued operation at this level is unacceptable. This decision is effective immediately and will remain in effect as appeals are pending unless a stay is granted under 43 CFR 4.21
This decision may be appealed to the Interior Board of Land Appeals, Office of the Secretary, in accordance with the regulations contained in 43 CFR Part 4, and the enclosed Form 1842-1. If an appeal is taken, your notice of appeal must be filed in this office, at the above address, within 30 days from receipt of this decision. The appellant has the burden of showing that the decision appealed from is in error.
In addition, within 30 days of receipt of this decision, the appellant has the right to file a petition (request) for a stay (suspension) of the effectiveness of this decision together with the appeal in accordance with the regulations at 43 CFR 4.21. A petition for a stay is required to show sufficient justification based on the standards listed below. Copies of the notice of appeal and petition for a stay must be submitted to each party named in this decision, to the Interior Board of Land Appeals, and to the appropriate Offce of the Solicitor, at the same time the original documents are filed with this office. If you request a stay, you have the burden of proof to demonstrate that a stay should be granted.
Except as otherwise provided by law or other pertinent regulation, a petition for a stay of a decision pending appeal shall show sufficient justification based on the following four standards:
l. The relative harm to the parties if the stay is granted or denied,
2. The likelihood of the appellant’s success on the merits,
3. The likelihood of immediate and irreparable harm if the stay is not granted, and
4. Whether the public interest favors granting the stay.
If you require further information, contact Deborah Flores, Outdoor Recreation Planner, 760252-6041 or me at 760-252-6004.
Katrina Symons Field Manager
Enclosure:
After Event Evaluation Fonn
Form 1842-1 Information on Appeals
CC: SCTA Bill Latin by email
After Event Evaluation Form
Name of Event: Gear Grinders Racing Club
Date(s): Nov 11-12 2017
Acceptable Performance:
The permittee has operated in accordance with the terms and conditions established for the permit. This rating may also be given when minor deficiencies exist and need correction. If, however, such deficiencies persist after a reasonable time period following notification, the rating may be changed to probationary.
Permittees with acceptable ratings are eligible for permit renewal and transfer where continued use is consistent with planning and other appropriate factors.
X Probationary Performance:
The permittee has not operated in full accordance with the terms and conditions of the permit; however, performance does not pose an immediate threat to the safety of guests or others, is not in violation of law and does not pose a threat of significant resource damage. Corrective action by the permittee is mandatory, and continued operation at this level of performance is unacceptable.
A permittee given a probationary performance rating qualifies for a permit not to exceed one year, and permits with remaining periods of more than one year will be amended. If the permittee receives a probationary performance rating for two consecutive years, the Authorized Officer may suspend or terminate the permit and/or deny future permit applications. Permits in probationary status may not be transferred.
Unacceptable Performance:
The permittee has not operated in accordance with the terms and conditions of the permit and may not be allowed to continue. The level of performance is a threat to the safety of guests or others or involves a violation of law that leads to a citation or record, significant resource damage, or major violation of administrative or financial obligations.
For multi-year permits, an unacceptable performance rating may result in suspension, termination, or revocation of permit privileges. For one-time event permits, the evaluation is documented in the file and may be used by the Authorized Officer as the basis for determining whether to issue or reject future permit applications.
Comments:
o See Performance evaluation letter for list of deficiencies o Good driver meetings o Event staffing easily identifiable o Course well marked o Symons emergency medical services on-site consistent with SRP o Portable toilets on site
Evaluated By: BLM Monitor Salazar Date: Nov 11-12 2017
-
Thank You MM!
-
MM please post the after event evaluation letter after the sig.
IT is Xed where it says corrective action is mandatory!!!!
The responsibility of vech control should be with the rider/driver
The PYLONS let the rider/driver know where the finish/timing line is
The CATCH NET defines the do not pass this point of the race area. The RIDER/DRIVER is responsible for stopping his ride---the catch net jus assures that the SCTA Club complies with the BLMS no trespass requirements of the OPERATION AGREEMENT.
This simple system that makes rider/drivers individually responsible for their actions has the least legal exposure.
The SCTA has defined the race course area, the start line, the finish line, and the shut down area where you are legally required to operate.
-
Hi, Sparky -
It is included - if you peer down to about 20 lines from the end, there is an "X" .
While I was able to pull text from the PDF, formatting of the original was lost.
I did correct a few typos, as well - I'll let Stan and Slim further edit any syntactical errors.
Just added - colored text for the event evaluation addendum.
-
What's confusing is the letter is addressed to the gear grinders as the permit holders of the event, not the SCTA.
Paragraph #4 mentions Gear Grinders again.
#6 talks about red lights at finish line. Is there red lights at finish line and back door line.
I think it's to much responsibility to hold SCTA clubs for all the conditions to hold a meet.
JL222
For a number of years now the individual clubs apply for a permit for one meet. This was done to avoid the higher fees charged by the BLM for multiple event permits. AMA district 37 does the same thing with dirt bike racing.
-
What's confusing is the letter is addressed to the gear grinders as the permit holders of the event, not the SCTA.
Paragraph #4 mentions Gear Grinders again.
#6 talks about red lights at finish line. Is there red lights at finish line and back door line.
I think it's to much responsibility to hold SCTA clubs for all the conditions to hold a meet.
JL222
For a number of years now the individual clubs apply for a permit for one meet. This was done to avoid the higher fees charged by the BLM for multiple event permits. AMA district 37 does the same thing with dirt bike racing.
What about insurance? Can the clubs and their members be sued over a mishap?
Individual clubs have to be responsible for patrols and all lake duties as the letter states?
JL222
jl222
-
Whether or not we as racers agree with the BLM, we need their permission (through a permit application) to race at El Mirage. Even if we employ devices to remotely control ignition and/or parachute deployment, if race vehicles continue to have boundary infractions the BLM will likely shut us down. A "catch net" type of device takes the human and mechanical failures out of the picture and positively insures no back door boundary incidents. NHRA has catch nets at their events and they run everything from jet cars to top fuel Harleys. Concern over vehicle damage or rider injury from the use of a catch net type device has been express in this thread. A catch net ensures that no matter what went wrong, the vehicle will not go out the back door. If another back door infraction happens in May, all this verbiage may be moot and the BLM will make the decision for us.
-
I personally think running the coarse in the opposite direction is just asking for a lawsuit when someone hits the cables and kills themselves, or worse somehow drives through Callaways House.
I think it is time to seriously look at a one mile venue, with the extra 1/3 mile being shut down area. Also buy a couple of old D6 caterpillars and attach huge bungee cords with a net and locate them 1000 feet before the end of the shutdown area.
I know you can chuckle all you want at this suggestion, but drastic change is needed or we are history.
The BLM does not need us, we need them, and we knew the writing was on the wall when they started to fence in the lakebed. Millions of dollars in racers race cars is at stake of being without a place in So Cal to run, except for the Mojave mile.
Tom G.
-
Tom spot on but maybe a progressive drag made with chain and ever larger weights I never did think I wanted to be shot out of a cannon but backwards by a huge sling shot?? :-D
-
I personally think running the coarse in the opposite direction is just asking for a lawsuit when someone hits the cables and kills themselves, or worse somehow drives through Callaways House.
I think it is time to seriously look at a one mile venue, with the extra 1/3 mile being shut down area. Also buy a couple of old D6 caterpillars and attach huge bungee cords with a net and locate them 1000 feet before the end of the shutdown area.
I know you can chuckle all you want at this suggestion, but drastic change is needed or we are history.
The BLM does not need us, we need them, and we knew the writing was on the wall when they started to fence in the lakebed. Millions of dollars in racers race cars is at stake of being without a place in So Cal to run, except for the Mojave mile.
Tom G.
jl222
JL pls forgive me for the delete---but we do not need to be bring this kind of thing to Landracing.com
Sparky
-
Tough to find an anchor for this...... Cooks parachute net would be easier
http://www.dragraceresults.com/fullstory.cfm?id=5929&title=Stroud_Safety_Catch_Net_Featured_in_Innovative_System
-
Bundy ranch trail.
Where does this trail go?
-
Bundy ranch trail.
Where does this trail go?
Out the back door :-D
jl222 :cheers:
-
JL pls read your personal message thanks Sparky
-
Tom spot on but maybe a progressive drag made with chain and ever larger weights I never did think I wanted to be shot out of a cannon but backwards by a huge sling shot?? :-D
Sparky, I guess bungee was not the name I was looking for, as you are correct about a backwards sling shot. :-o What we need is a type of material that has some elasticity in it for the impact, to help reduce any attempted lawsuits which might name the SCTA, which in turn would have an effect on our insurance rates.
Tough to find an anchor for this...... Cooks parachute net would be easier
http://www.dragraceresults.com/fullstory.cfm?id=5929&title=Stroud_Safety_Catch_Net_Featured_in_Innovative_System
Dean, I like the link to the net, and my thought on the D6 cats are that they weigh around 18,000 each and the BLM cannot complain about the surface being mistreated, and we can drive them back and forth to the SCTA property. You can pick old ones up pretty cheap.
I was just throwing an idea out there for an anchor as the BLM might veto a drag, but until submitted who knows.
Tom G.
-
Read post 20.
-
Read post 20.
Thanks Glen for the response.
Is there a website or video that anyone can direct me to, so I can see how that net works. Does it pull the car to the side and the car end up rolling, or how does it end up bringing the vehicle to a complete stop, and what distance does it take to do it.
Tom G.
-
How about requiring that only "Experienced El Mirage Drivers and Riders" operate vehicles during out probation period while the SCTA works out what long term solutions will address all concerns...
Visitors to El Mirage wanting test runs of their Bonneville rides would have to have an El Mirage qualified driver to run their vehicle at El Mo..
Severe restrictions on inexperienced competitors must be implemented ASAP .....
Otherwise the end is near.....very near....
Smitty
-
Tom spot on but maybe a progressive drag made with chain and ever larger weights I never did think I wanted to be shot out of a cannon but backwards by a huge sling shot?? :-D
Sparky, I guess bungee was not the name I was looking for, as you are correct about a backwards sling shot. :-o What we need is a type of material that has some elasticity in it for the impact, to help reduce any attempted lawsuits which might name the SCTA, which in turn would have an effect on our insurance rates.
Tough to find an anchor for this...... Cooks parachute net would be easier
http://www.dragraceresults.com/fullstory.cfm?id=5929&title=Stroud_Safety_Catch_Net_Featured_in_Innovative_System
Dean, I like the link to the net, and my thought on the D6 cats are that they weigh around 18,000 each and the BLM cannot complain about the surface being mistreated, and we can drive them back and forth to the SCTA property. You can pick old ones up pretty cheap.
I was just throwing an idea out there for an anchor as the BLM might veto a drag, but until submitted who knows.
Tom G.
Yes Tom, that was my train of thought on the cats but I like to keep my posts short. Another idea is concrete holes we could put poles in to anchor the net I posted and cover with man hole covers when we are not racing but I suspect BLM won’t let us drill holes in the lakebed
-
Anchor the net to 2 vehicles parked 100? feet to each side of the net . Vehicles aimed at the net with transmissions in park . Soft hit at first for motorcycles , progressively harder the father in the race vehicle goes . anchor car-----------net------------anchor car
-
I have seen lengths of anchor chains used a Navy training airstrips in Texas. the farther on goes down the strip after catching the net the more chain one drags until stopping--very little stored energy with using drags concrete filled tires for drags would be moveable and lying on their side would not disturb the lake very much at all
-
A proposal -- see attached diagram
Given:
1) It is the competitor’s responsibility to stop within the alloted deceleration zone.
2) In normal circumstances there is no reason why this cannot be achieved.
3) In extrordinary circumstances vehicles must be constrained to within the emergency zone.
4) If extrordinary circumstances arise, competitors have no basis to complain about using the arresting facility.
5) Competitors evading or otherwise avoiding the facility will be dealt with administratively.
The proposed type of facility and policy shows the BLM a good faith effort to contain errant vehicles and would present minimal impact on the lakebed.
Tire bundles could be on pallets for forklift handling or in lifting bundles for crane truck handling. This arrangement should be reasonably economical and logistically manageable given the task required. The extra “wings” of arresting net are to collect vehicles which may, under extrordinary circumstances, have somewhat departed from the nominal course width.
-
IO that is almost exactly what I had in mind ---but stages of ever increasing groups of tires start with 3 on each side then they drag a little bit and then it takes up the slack and it is dragging 5 more on each side then 7 more on each side ect ect
-
Love your proposal......
Maybe several versions of barrier net braking should be tested to determine a workable solution...
Let us not forget about quick deploying parachutes being attached to the ends of the netting...
-
THE NET / CHUTES has been tested at Bonneville.
-
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
Any restraint and all other alternatives need to be reviewed by the insurance folks. Do not be surprised if closing the lake during the race is the insurable solution.
-
A proposal -- see attached diagram
Given:
1) It is the competitor’s responsibility to stop within the allotted deceleration zone.
2) In normal circumstances there is no reason why this cannot be achieved.
3) In extraordinary circumstances vehicles must be constrained to within the emergency zone.
4) If extraordinary circumstances arise, competitors have no basis to complain about using the arresting facility.
5) Competitors evading or otherwise avoiding the facility will be dealt with administratively.
The proposed type of facility and policy shows the BLM a good faith effort to contain errant vehicles and would present minimal impact on the lakebed.
Tire bundles could be on pallets for forklift handling or in lifting bundles for crane truck handling. This arrangement should be reasonably economical and logistically manageable given the task required. The extra “wings” of arresting net are to collect vehicles which may, under extraordinary circumstances, have somewhat departed from the nominal course width.
Interested Observer,
Thanks for taking the time to do this proposal and drawing. I think you should send this to all of the officers of the SCTA as a proposal for them to talk about implementing. Good food for thought.
Thanks,
Tom G.
-
Whew, I just read 16 pages of comments , ,
I have to think, The ones that went out the back door read this also and think, Hmmm Id better not do that again !
And the ones that havent gone out the back door are thinking, Id better not be the next one to do it after all this talk ?
Maybe ? It needed a good blowup to get the point across ?
But, Ive never seen El Mirage, So I dont know . .
But my first post in 2014 on this forum,Was about Bonneville,And how I went to the very end of the 5 mile run ,And that to
this day, I would swear , There was No Turn offs, There was, But I sure didnt see them . . .
Good Luck to all, I hope it never happens again, I want to run El Mirage in May . . . . .
DW
-
There are no turn-offs at El Mirage.
At Bonneville, it's hard to see the turnoffs at speed. That's probably a good thing as if you're going too fast, you usually will overshoot them if you try. Seeing them depends a lot on the salt conditions. If it's great, you can't hardly see them -- or need them. If it's not, you can continue to slow down until you find one.
-
After reading the BLM letter again here are the areas that must be addressed:
I. Tarps under race cars and bikes
self explanatory---just add to off inspection sheet inspections like Safety Gear
II. Secure the race area:
I suggest "DO NOT ENTER" tape completely around race area with only one entrance at
the staging area and all must exit at the same exit now between the inspection area and
the starting line. Each race team is allowed on push truck that issued a roof pylon as the
team is released from the staging area and is surrendered as the push truck passes
through the exit. That way there should only be SCTA officals, race vehicles and their
push vehicles in the race area.
III. Out of Bounds ---ie out the back door
Best way to stop is a Catch Net much like IO has drawn
IV. Finish Line ---ie Light Bars and flashing lights
I believe the surest way is to have inflatable pylons on each side with finish line flags strung across the track.
They need to be tall enough that a "theorem" driver can see them from the start line.
V. No Passing --Short Coursing---I am not familiar with what this means
To be able to keep running at El M. we are are going to have to modify how we have "always" done things IMO
It is going to cost some money and ruffle a LOT of feathers--
-its real simple to me ---change and be allowed to run or I predict we will have a short racing season! YMMV
-
After reading most of the 16 pages prior to this my vote would be.
1. Run east to west.
2. Put up a catch net before the bushes like Sparky and IO have suggested.
3. Tarp under your car or you go home without running.
Sure there is more danger running east to west, but you still have the same shutdown length, plus a catch fence at the end of it. No different than dozens of tracks around the country where you wouldn't want to run past the catch fence. If you don't feel safe with your car/bike in that situation, don't run. As it is now, if you don't have a car/bike that can not stop before the backdoor, you are putting someone else's life in jeopardy and also our right to keep running at El Mirage.
If I remember right from the Cook meet that I went to the catch fence there was off to the side of the end of the track at the Interstate end and a driver would have to actually turn into it to use it. It was off to the side since the pits were just a few feet from the Interstate fence. If a car was under control they would by-pass the turn to the fence and go to the pits so that they could do their FIA 1 hour turnaround. This gave the longest possible track available, which was needed due to the deteriorating salt conditions.
Looks like the BLM is currently compiling a list of infractions to possibly justify shutting the racing down. Let's not give them anymore. I think FH-J and others have presented a good case for running the opposite direction and hope he presents it to the SCTA.
Sumner
-
Bill Taylor, when he was a starter, used to tell you before you left the line;
"Be safe, have fun, go fast, and remember the throttle works both ways"
Sometimes the pressure of long waits in line, fewer chances to run and wanting to salvage at least something from a weekend leads us to bad decisions. Some of those decisions have been admitted or alluded to in this thread. Nothing we can accomplish on the lakebed is worth increasing the danger in what is already a dangerous hobby. I always tell Russ and Tony "If you don't like it click it off, there is always another day". Realization of this fact will go a long way to eliminate outside the cones infractions due to target fixation.
-
There is no traction running east to west. It would be a waste of time and money to continue running if that is the decision. If your going to do a catch net, then do it on the existing set up.
-
:cheers:
-
Bill Taylor, when he was a starter, used to tell you before you left the line;
"Be safe, have fun, go fast, and remember the throttle works both ways"
Thanks Jim,
Remember when Dean Spencer used to be in charge of keeping everyone moved up in the starting line, and making sure everyone was suited up ready to go so there were no delays, for people who were not ready to make a run. I think we need someone like that telling all the drivers the consequences of going out the back door, at the starting line. Nothing like refreshing a drivers mind just before a run, as that would eliminate drivers excuses of I was not aware of ................
If your going to do a catch net, then do it on the existing set up.
Dean,
I agree.
Everyone has to remember we are not on private land like 99.9% of the racetracks across the country. If we were on private land I don't think we would be having this topic of conversation.
IMO having the starting line down at the back door end of the current track would be a disaster for the SCTA. The dust issue would be horrible, and that would effect every participant, every spectator, SCTA sales trailer etc. The dust the cars would be creating would be coming right back to the starting line a great deal of the time. That would also slow down the amount of runs that could be made. IMO it would be a slow death for the SCTA.
Over the years leaving El Mirage, I cannot count the many times I have had to come to a complete stop from the whiteout caused by the dust around me, that came from the racetrack.
The only constant in Life is change. Milwaukee Midget Chris suggested going to a one mile venue at the beginning of this thread, I agree with him. The cars and motorcycles are only going to attain higher and higher speeds as time rolls on, creating more problems stopping them. Why not make the change now, instead of in hindsight.
Tom G.
-
Its been an interesting read thus far that's for sure.
I will say this about one of the out the backdoor instances earlier this season that imho opinion the guy was a complete moron. He was still in the throttle well past the back door. His reasoning, he couldn't see. This was in a roadster that's gone well past 200 at both EM and Bonneville. This guy wasn't a rookie either. Im a friggen rookie and know that if I cant see to cut the power, dump the laundry and come to a safe stop. What the hell was that guys problem. That's not a lack of education that's just stupidity in my eyes.
I like Jims idea of turning the course around.
Another idea came to mind and I don't think its been brought up or maybe I missed it in between Sparky and JL's arguing. Funny how Troy was one of the out the back door violations in November. Yes I know it was a combination of breakage and other issues.
THe idea that came to mind is what about approaching the BLM about just completely closing the lake bed to anyone other than SCTA racers for the race days. So we have to pay a little more in entry fees in order for the BLM to be willing to close off the lake bed. Id rather pay a little extra for the 6 races a year than not have an option other than hit or miss Bonneville or hauling my car from AZ to Arkansas. Just a thought.
Nothing funny about it rookie. :-D. I have been racing on this lake bed since 1990 and went out the back door one time. Let’s hope you can do better.
-
Tried to control myself all day but couldn't do it..."Troy drives at El Mirage and the last meet, I just called to see if he has ever seem them......."
.........as he was driving out the back...................... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Didn’t see any flashing lights as both my chutes didn’t open and only had front by brakes at this meet. New pilot chutes bought new brakes bought and i didn’t get an official out the back door because i got back inside the cones quickly. I thought our conversation was on the down low.
Well......sorry but it was low hanging fruit 😜......We Need to all work together to solve the problem but your pops is being combative. Let’s work together on this
Yep drinking and posting makes you miss where the combative comments started. 8-).
-
JL you may be assuming that this is all a personal attack---you are know to be thinned skin--- and you just maybe are being trolled---sorta like poking a frog just to see him jump---the poker has nothing against the frog they just like to see him jump..
Until about five minuets ago, I had no idea who seventy-seven year old John Andrew Langlo, who lives in Clovis, CA, is. Why would I troll him ??? Now that I know who he is, it's plain to see he's just a harmless old-man, who let's his mouth overload his a**. I will not respond to any more of his senior moments.
Sparky, I'm real, I've done all I've said I've done. I've held the records I've said I've held. And I have nothing against your horse.
So you did some serious research trying to find out who JL is. You must have a Bonneville program found his entry and then googled his name. You have dropped some names on here and i didn’t see you introduce yourself on the “introduce yourself”thread, and if you’re going to be calling someone out maybe we should know who you are?
-
Does anyone know if any of these ideas/proposals are on the agenda for the meeting on the 5th?
-
The BLM should give the SCTA additional stopping distance for safety. Keep the existing back door line, warnings and punishments but more room to stop.
The net with parachutes. caution tape taped to pylons at each back doors.
Video taping or monitoring of usage behind existing out back line for Sundays on regular weeks to find out how many bikes cars ECT would be affected by additional 500 ft or whatever SCTA would want.
JL222
JL --- I deleted the last two sentences--I thought we had an understanding !! Sparky
-
The BLM should give the SCTA additional stopping distance for safety. Keep the existing back door line, warnings and punishments but more room to stop.
The net with parachutes. caution tape taped to pylons at each back doors.
Video taping or monitoring of usage behind existing out back line for Sundays on regular weeks to find out how many bikes cars ECT would be affected by additional 500 ft or whatever SCTA would want.
JL222
JL --- I deleted the last two sentences--I thought we had an understanding !! Sparky
[/quote
HEll no I gave you my reasons about posting news about the BLM why are you hiding important info?
JL222
-
Just Trying to keep this all about El M.
-
Just Trying to keep this all about El M.
The problem is the BLM and SCTA.
Why are you protecting them?
Anyone interested in what Sparky is trying to hide about the BLM can send me a personal message.
JL222
-
Thank you JL
I believe that is the proper way to deal with this:
--when they contact you then you can share a link to whatever you wish to share ---you have a point about the BLM you wish to share do so-----
by doing it privately it doesn't involve Landracing.com or the S.C.T.A.
Thanks Again
-
Looking through some old Hot Rod mags. Photo of SCTA sanctioned 1/2 Mile Drags Riverside Raceway 1957. They had some race course Pylons that would work great for the finish line at El M.. They could be seen from they start line.
-
What I think is we all wait to see what the BLM and SCTA have discussed and wait for the changes etc. are posted.
-
If there is a real problem with people going out the back door why doesn't the scta ask for an extra mile of lake bed.
-
Hey All,
Someone a few threads back, I think way back, suggested communication with the driver. Why couldn't you simply canabolize (sic) a cell phone headset?
Before start get in communication with your crew chief, wife, husband, or whomever you have meeting you at the finish line. Now I don't know about all coverage on the lake but my Verizon works just fine.
Certainly it will not help with an out of control situation but it's a fairly cheap way to show good faith... "Hey were now in constant communication with our drivers".
Chris
-
Here is a link to lightweight orange plastic netting. It can serve as a "barrier" at the end of the course.
https://www.usnetting.com/barrier-netting/containment-netting/
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
Ever watch Monster Jam? A truck gets out of control and an official cuts the ignition.
-
Raciever radios have been suggested at SCTA meetings and are under consideration at this time. The system is a one-way communication system and is currently used at hundreds of circle tracks in this country. I guarrentee you can hear them with a helmet on and engine screaming
The SCTA radio system is compatable with the receivers which have hundreds of channels.
The cost of the recievers for the driver/rider is $100.00. it has been suggested that no one would leave the starting line without acknowedging that they have heard the timing tower communication with them.
I'm sure $100.00 would eliminate 80% of entries do to whining. We will loose the remaining 20% by their lack of reading the instructions to put them on the correct channel. :-D.......JD
-
Included in that 20% is those sitting on their mike. This would be accomplished by having their head up.....Well, you know. :roll:
Wayno
-
Can't sit on a mike....only the timing tower can speak....one way communication.