Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: racergeo on September 19, 2017, 06:09:37 PM
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If I was younger I would build a roadster for the C/AIR class. When I first heard about that class I looked up the C/gas roadster record and could see no reason that a C/AIR couldn't be a 200 mph class. The 647 car ran 197 at WOS. Good conditions will net them or some one a red hat. I love classes that are a competition and not a cherry pick. I noted 5 entries in D/GL and am going to build an engine for some friendly competition. George
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Not sure but I think C/air set it at 202
at wos
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Was it by a Nailhead, Rocket, Studey, Packard, DeSoto, Dodge, AMC, Lincoln, Caddy, Pontiac or Packard V-8 -- the ones the class was created for.
Stan
(Are all of those still out there just waiting to update their cage, fire system, seat, head and neck restraint, fire suit, tires, parachute, etc. -- but, outside of that, ready to run?)
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In further consideration, times have changed. There's climate-change (or not). We've got to be more accepting of folks with ideas that don't always jibe with our thoughts. I'd tweet about this if I knew how. I think what we need is a Green Roadster Class. Only with G engines, like the Compressed AIR Roadsters only have C. Let's involve all those builds that have been afraid to show their faces -- let's go Green!
Chartreuse, Olive, Seafoam, Kelly, Forest, Mint -- they're all welcome!
Damm -- it's too late for a rule change submission. Maybe next year.
Stan
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I only have the results posted on WOS site. I'm not surprised though. Too bad about it being just a SBC class. Kind of like NHRA PRO stock. I'm sure a destroked BBC will work also.
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Davidson's team runs one -- pretty fast.
SpeedWeek entries included a Pontiac and a D-sized SBC -- but it had to run as the only class, C. Any and all of the above could run in their respective Gas Roadster class. The whole thing was created for the purpose of getting the "odd-balls" to run -- as if they had nowhere else to run.
Now they're (not) running against the SBC and BBC roadsters anyway.
It's there. It'll stay. It sure as helll didn't do anything at all that it was supposed to do.
Next?
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QA C/AIR revised class. Same rules except for "Single rocker shaft engines only. Then you make an exception for DeSoto and Pontiac engines if you want to. Might require OEM crankshafts also. Stock stroke.
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I say, brain storm it to death, till we reach a consensus. Submit it for next year. I'll start. Let's give certain engines a weight break. If they are proved to have an unfair advantage they can't weigh as much. Better yet they have too add the weight to the front. Make the class run at the end of the day so they have time to clean up the carnage. I have a 303 Olds with a hydromatic. Lots of parts availability.
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And who will supply the scales?
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"Single rocker shaft engines only."
Picking on my Boss 351 idea???
Let's give certain engines a weight break.
This isn't drag racing. More or less weight will help or hurt certain combos and track conditions. No dice...
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Sounds like a blown class to me. :-D :roll:
Sid.
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This is the last time I try to post this picture. I hate that part of this. I have a 368 Lincoln. .060 over with a 317 truck crank. That makes it 3.060X3.500. Same as my Packard 363 inches. Hilborns. Nice port job. Lakewood blowshield adapted from a 390. With a top loader 4 sped or a 3 speed with Gear Vendors OD. Thing should run pretty good. Needs a good home. Here goes the picture. I renamed it. shrunk it. Did everything except have it blessed be the Bishop. No picture for you.
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This is the last time I try to post this picture. I hate that part of this. I have a 368 Lincoln. .060 over with a 317 truck crank. That makes it 3.060X3.500. Same as my Packard 363 inches. Hilborns. Nice port job. Lakewood blowshield adapted from a 390. With a top loader 4 sped or a 3 speed with Gear Vendors OD. Thing should run pretty good. Needs a good home. Here goes the picture. I renamed it. shrunk it. Did everything except have it blessed be the Bishop. No picture for you.
Rich, email the picture to me. I will post it.
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This is the last time I try to post this picture. I hate that part of this. I have a 368 Lincoln. .060 over with a 317 truck crank. That makes it 3.060X3.500. Same as my Packard 363 inches. Hilborns. Nice port job. Lakewood blowshield adapted from a 390. With a top loader 4 sped or a 3 speed with Gear Vendors OD. Thing should run pretty good. Needs a good home. Here goes the picture. I renamed it. shrunk it. Did everything except have it blessed be the Bishop. No picture for you.
Rich, I think you mean a 4.060 bore don't you? Just trying to help you sell your motor.
Tom G.
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Yes. 4.060. I will loan it to an interested C/AIR wanta be.I don't know how fast it will be. But the valve covers are sure pretty. Oh yeah. This picture it lets me post. This is the truck engine that the crank came out of.
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Not sure but I think C/air set it at 202
at wos
Actually 200.123.
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A red hat will only come when someone breaks the 200 MPH club minimum of 225.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
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A red hat will only come when someone breaks the 200 MPH club minimum of 225.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
I think the 2 Club lowered the minimum to 210 MPH. I will check (finish) the minutes & let you know.... :lol:
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Wow, moving pretty good, 200.123 really blew the lid off the 187.431 record. I was trying to find some information or even a picture of the 647... Nada.
Chris C.
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why lower it for a C AIR when they would not correct an obvious mistake in PP and MP
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why lower it for a C AIR when they would not correct an obvious mistake in PP and MP
Because it was brought to the attention of the Board Sparky. Then discussed & voted on.
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Mike I think I understand the how---but my question was as to the why---what was the thinking?
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Sparky, there was discussion at the SpeedWeek 2 Club meeting.... At the time the fastest C/AIR was under 190 after several years of running... some by quite high dollar teams. There was motion that the board consider lowering the number to 210.
What was the issue with PP and MP? Maybe you need to propose something to the board. Minimums are reconsidered every 5 years IIRC.
:cheers:
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Been there done that ----no cigar---- they more are less acknowledged there was a mismatch between classes and were not interested--just sour grapes on my part --not being a roadster toad and all
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Guys I am VERY new to Landspeed racing, I am currently building a C/AIR car to compete next year. After following this thread I looked through my 2017 rule book for class minimums I could not find anything that referred to C/AIR. So does the 210 refer to the minimum or is there a minimum?
Thanks again,
Chris C.
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They are talking about the minimum required to get a red hat.
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http://www.bonneville200mph.org/carrecords.pdf (http://www.bonneville200mph.org/carrecords.pdf)
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Thank You.
Chris
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A red hat will only come when someone breaks the 200 MPH club minimum of 225.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
I think the 2 Club lowered the minimum to 210 MPH. I will check (finish) the minutes & let you know.... :lol:
Mike,
Any luck finding out if the club lowered the minimum to 210?
Thanks for any help,
Tom G.
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For those who are new to LSR there are many avenues available to record collection. Find a class with what you consider low hanging fruit, build a vehicle and go for it. A person can also do some research of the many organizations involved and determine the best place for you. In the old days of baseball the program vendors would sell their wares by announcing that "you can'tell the players without a program"
This is true in LSR. The Bonneville 200 MPH Club is an independent organization with no ties to any group other than the club recognizes the achievements of drivers and riders at Bonneville. The club maintains its own list of records, many of which are not related to the SCTA, USFRA, FIA or FIM listings. See section 19 of your rule book. There are some open classes among the SCTA listings(open refers to NO established record). In their case two passes average out to a record of some sort. In this case the Club has set a list of obtainable minimums which must be met in order to earn membership.
It is not easy nor is it meant to be. It is no simple task to create a list of minimums when the SCTA adds new classes at their whim. You are welcome to the task. Contact me for an available position. Just because you want to build yourself a vehicle doesn't mean the Club has to establish a easily reachable goal for you.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
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Was it by a Nailhead, Rocket, Studey, Packard, DeSoto, Dodge, AMC, Lincoln, Caddy, Pontiac or Packard V-8 -- the ones the class was created for.
Stan
(Are all of those still out there just waiting to update their cage, fire system, seat, head and neck restraint, fire suit, tires, parachute, etc. -- but, outside of that, ready to run?)
Who wrote the rule? It should have had a 1962 cut off date. Obviously the people who wrote the rule didn't know much about early technology. A late 1960s Buick Nailhead, SBC or Olds could be made to run fast on gas, Using over-the-counter speed equipment. The trouble is that now-a-days it's getting hard to find these engines at the boneyard, e-bay sellers have jacked up the prices on old speed parts. So your low-cost class now costs as much to run as any other. If my old roadster still existed, rule changes would make building a new car less expensive than updating the old.
If you truly want to lower costs go to a spec-engine. New iron head and new iron block with a single 4 barrel spec Holly. No porting and your choice of cam.
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A couple thoughts. One is this class should limit the C.I. of engines that have a distinct advantage. By that I mean SBC and BBC. The performance equipment for those engine is 50% cheaper then any of the fringe engines in the category. You talk about an unlevel playing field. Unless your just out there to goof around with your roadster that has been sitting for 50 years you wouldn't start from scratch and find a 354 Hemi unless you just enjoy throwing money away. If you do enjoy throwing money away I have a lot of parts for a MEL 430 Lincoln engine including a 6 carb Edelbrock intake. I don't have a crank so if you can round up a crank for one of the small C.I. variations of this engine you could offset grind the rods to suit a BBC conrod. and wa la, a world beater. They have big intakes and O.K. ex. ports. You would be the George Poteet of C/AIR. :-D
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So you limit the SBC and BBC -- how? Make them run D? Have you seen any roadster run that class that's been sitting around for 50 years? 30 years? No? Gee -- I thought that was why it was started.
How about making a myriad of classes, blown and unblown, gas and fuel -- make it a new category.
With Bonneville the condition it's in, and the prognosis for the future, why not also have sprung and unsprung classes in the category? 32 grille and non-32 grille? Light and dark colors? We know (?) the dark colors absorb the sun and allow the air to pass over more easily (or not?).
Add a few more classes to the category, it'll be just like the bikes -- wedge, hemi, underhead and overhead, count the valves, dry sump or wet, 32 and under, 32 and over, 10% speed added for Ts, participation trophies, best appearing, best appearing crew, best appearing push vehicle, farthest from Wendover, driven from Wendover, etc.
What? That's ridiculous? How about the whole premise for the class and how that's worked out?
Stan Back
(Way back.)
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Back in the 80's we won an award from Chevy Power magazine for the fastest Chevy powered roadster at Speedweek, when apprised of this fact my son asked " was that the fastest blue Chevy powered roadster of the fastest red Chevy powered roadster?"
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Had I made the C/AIR rules, I would have limited the class to single rocker shaft engines only. Chryslers and Chevys don't need protection. I might have made exceptions for Pontiac and 348 type Chevy engines. Maybe DeSotos also Chryslers could use Poly heads.
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What? That's ridiculous? How about the whole premise for the class and how that's worked out?
Stan Back
(Way back.)
Wanting a low-cost roadster class isn't ridiculous. But like many things SCTA, it was SNAFU from the very beginning, and the implementation was FUBAR.
Want fast low cost racing? Prothero is getting close to 200 at El Mirage with his C-Pro Camaro.
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Stan Back, I couldn't agree more. My post was strictly tongue in cheek. Now take some deep breaths .......... George
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It doesn't take a rocket sinusnuts to relise dat the rols to this clas nead to be revizitud. Havin sed taht I nominat Stan too do the math. Go too the ruls commite and give them some inteligeut impuutg. mak this an inteligent and relavant class.!!!!
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Why not just build a d@mn car and set a record? No one is going to do sh!t about the rules.
:dhorse:
:dhorse:
:dhorse:
:dhorse:
:dhorse:
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My bad. Forgot to use auto correct. :lol:
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If you do enjoy throwing money away I have a lot of parts for a MEL 430 Lincoln engine including a 6 carb Edelbrock intake. I don't have a crank so if you can round up a crank for one of the small C.I. variations of this engine you could offset grind the rods to suit a BBC conrod. and wa la, a world beater. They have big intakes and O.K. ex. ports. You would be the George Poteet of C/AIR. :-D
Racergeo,
Have you seen this article on a MEL engine? Pretty interesting on the interpretation of the rules.
Tom G.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/photo-gallery-video-jon-kaases-amazing-mel-engine/
PS. I heard the 200 mph record did not stand as the racer never submitted evidence that the heads were legal for the class.
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DSman --
I hear those F6 (8?) motors are eligible! Get going!
Stan
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Tom, I have read that several times and it never ceases to amaze me at Kaase's imagination. I say Jon Kaase for president, of the world!
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If you do enjoy throwing money away I have a lot of parts for a MEL 430 Lincoln engine including a 6 carb Edelbrock intake. I don't have a crank so if you can round up a crank for one of the small C.I. variations of this engine you could offset grind the rods to suit a BBC conrod. and wa la, a world beater. They have big intakes and O.K. ex. ports. You would be the George Poteet of C/AIR. :-D
Racergeo,
Have you seen this article on a MEL engine? Pretty interesting on the interpretation of the rules.
Tom G.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/photo-gallery-video-jon-kaases-amazing-mel-engine/
PS. I heard the 200 mph record did not stand as the racer never submitted evidence that the heads were legal for the class.
Tom, I have read that several times and it never ceases to amaze me at Kaase's imagination. I say Jon Kaase for president, of the world!
There is ALWAYS someone else with more:
A/ desire,
2/ money,
d/ technical expertise,
z/ etc, etc . . . . .
The "trick", as always, is to just get started, and to "maximize" what resources you have, and improving, when and where you can.
When he produced a time slip for 22 mph, who thought the midget would ever spend face time with Dan Warner in impound? :-D
You can't make stuff like this up. You either gotta "do it", or regret it on your death bed . . . . . .
Just sayin'
:cheers:
Fordboy
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DSman --
I hear those F6 (8?) motors are eligible! Get going!
Stan
Good one Stan. Those F(ormula)8 motors from the 1950's got sold when they were deemed illegal for the class.
I am currently working on a DS for this class when money permits. ( I played the lotto and lost )
If I can run as fast as you have at El Mirage I will be extremely happy.
That is it in a nutshell.
Tom G.
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Now I really regret trading away my DS Edmunds valve covers for the wrinkled 354 semi-chromed ones on the Plymouth. I'd have gladly given them to you. Get going. El Mirage waits for no one. (In fact it may not be for anyone.)
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Update on my MEL engine. A friend knows where I can get a 383 C.I. crank. That makes this a near complete engine including necessary shaft rockers.( For proposed rule change) Intake ports are 1.25 /W 2.625/T. Could be legend engine with offset ground crank and proper porting and valve sizing. George
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Now I really regret trading away my DS Edmunds valve covers for the wrinkled 354 semi-chromed ones on the Plymouth. I'd have gladly given them to you.
Thank for the thought Stan.
Get going. El Mirage waits for no one. (In fact it may not be for anyone.)
Never has a truer word been spoken.
Update on my MEL engine. A friend knows where I can get a 383 C.I. crank. That makes this a near complete engine including necessary shaft rockers.( For proposed rule change) Intake ports are 1.25 /W 2.625/T. Could be legend engine with offset ground crank and proper porting and valve sizing. George
George, What is the proposed rule change?
Tom G.
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Tom, a reference to RichFox reply 34. Best Idea floated yet. FYI Rich Fox is not his name, it is his financial situation and his dominant personal trait. If I thought they would change the rules to something like Rich proposed I would consult with Kaase and build one bitchin MEL. George
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If they do change the rules, I have a nice 368 Lincoln ready. I'll let the name deal go without comment.
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Rich, you are such a diplomat and only ignored by one person. You must have hurt the Propsters feelings. Bummer deal about any resolution to this class is the extreme cost of building and adapting antique engines to a good trans. Any old SBC would cost about 25% of a rare engine with no speed equip. availability. I say no new classes unless voted on by the members of this site after one months debate and fisticuffs. :-D
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Actually I have put Ford transmissions behind a Lotus 907-a 32 Plymouth banger-a 26 Dodge banger-a 392 Chrysler-a Pontiac-a Packard and now the Lincoln. It has a Lakewood blowshield modified from an FE shield and bolts to a top loader 4 speed. If you need to bolt a available blowshield to a vintage motor, bring it by and we will think of something.
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The results are in. Speed Week a very successful team of Stringfellow and Kirk set the record at 190 mph on a very good track. It seems by the speed posted in the WOS results that the 647 Disorderly Conduct car posted a record of 202. Getting close to the 210 min. but not an easy "low hanging fruit". Would say that any engine beside a Hemi or a destroked BBC and SBC are no fit for a 210 mph player. The class needs an amendment for the "other" engines. Allow them to have a 410 c.i. limit. Brings a lot of other engines into play without having to buy a billet crank. Just a thought on what could be a fun class.
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:dhorse: :dhorse: Got my new Hot Rod. Jon Kaase won the vintage class in the EMC again. This year he had top HP and Torque over all with a 473 CI MEL ford engine.795 HP. You guys that are a member of the SCTA need to get a rule change for 2020. I think if the BBC and SBC engines can run all the cheap and readily available speed equipment then engines that this class was envisioned for need to be allowed more C.I. So WHAT IF THEY HAVE TO RENAME THE CLASS. Sb chevys and BBC and hemis run C and all the Y blocks MELs and Poly and wedge MOPARS, Buicks, Pontiacs etc.can run at B rules. It would be just terrible if an engine that took advantage of a CI break got to be competitive. It would cause a lot of whining. :cry: Jump in here Stan.
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"So you limit the SBC and BBC -- how? Make them run D? Have you seen any roadster run that class that's been sitting around for 50 years? 30 years? No? Gee -- I thought that was why it was started.
How about making a myriad of classes, blown and unblown, gas and fuel -- make it a new category.
With Bonneville the condition it's in, and the prognosis for the future, why not also have sprung and unsprung classes in the category? 32 grille and non-32 grille? Light and dark colors? We know (?) the dark colors absorb the sun and allow the air to pass over more easily (or not?).
Add a few more classes to the category, it'll be just like the bikes -- wedge, hemi, underhead and overhead, count the valves, dry sump or wet, 32 and under, 32 and over, 10% speed added for Ts, participation trophies, best appearing, best appearing crew, best appearing push vehicle, farthest from Wendover, driven from Wendover, etc.
What? That's ridiculous? How about the whole premise for the class and how that's worked out?
Stan Back
(Way back.)"
That's what I said last January. Don't think it needs much of an update.
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:dhorse: :dhorse: Got my new Hot Rod. Jon Kaase won the vintage class in the EMC again. This year he had top HP and Torque over all with a 473 CI MEL ford engine.795 HP. You guys that are a member of the SCTA need to get a rule change for 2020.
George,
Just for clarification, Jon Kaase's EMC motor would be protested in a hot second even if it was a 371 cubic inch motor. The modifications he has done to that motor in the head department alone are not legal for the AIR Class.
If you really want to run a MEL motor take that 383 MEL crankshaft and offset grind it to around 3.15 stroke, bore the motor to 4.330 and you have 371 cubic inches. There you go, no need for a rule change. No need for an expensive Billet crankshaft and the money you just saved can go towards the new valve train you will need. Just remember no changing the combustion chamber like Kaase did.
Have fun and good luck,
Tom G.
https://mooregoodink.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/3-0853.jpg
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"So you limit the SBC and BBC -- how? Make them run D? Have you seen any roadster run that class that's been sitting around for 50 years? 30 years? No? Gee -- I thought that was why it was started.
How about making a myriad of classes, blown and unblown, gas and fuel -- make it a new category.
With Bonneville the condition it's in, and the prognosis for the future, why not also have sprung and unsprung classes in the category? 32 grille and non-32 grille? Light and dark colors? We know (?) the dark colors absorb the sun and allow the air to pass over more easily (or not?).
Add a few more classes to the category, it'll be just like the bikes -- wedge, hemi, underhead and overhead, count the valves, dry sump or wet, 32 and under, 32 and over, 10% speed added for Ts, participation trophies, best appearing, best appearing crew, best appearing push vehicle, farthest from Wendover, driven from Wendover, etc.
What? That's ridiculous? How about the whole premise for the class and how that's worked out?
Stan Back
(Way back.)"
That's what I said last January. Don't think it needs much of an update.
Stan... I thought roasters (yea) already had all those options except for maybe sprung and unsprung, 32 grille and non-32 grille, Light and dark colors, wedge, hemi, underhead and overhead, count the valves, dry sump or wet, 32 and under, 32 and over, 10% speed added for Ts, participation trophies, best appearing, best appearing crew, best appearing push vehicle, farthest from Wendover, driven from Wendover, etc.
But we digress... as usual.... as with any class at Bonneville you need to read the rules, determine if you can build one that's faster than everyone else.... and go for it.... if you think a class is too restrictive, then change to a class with less rules... like special construction.... wheels in or wheels out :roll:
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
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This thread is hard for us bike guys to understand. We need a translated version.
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I knew I could count on ya Stan. :-) Anyway, only change, let above mentioned engines have B class cubes and let them run with the 370 CI BBC, SBC and hemi. Call it CCR. Combined classic roadster. Or not. No new class, just an avenue for some new blood in LSR. It has already become a SBC event for streamliners. :lol:
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Exclude stud mounted rocker arms. Single rocker shaft OEM engines only. Then you would have a true "Classic" OHV V8 engine class. The class as it now sits is redundant
.
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How do you undo the record holders?
This (stupid) class was made to give the guys with Studebaker or Olds or whatever out-dated engines a place to be competitive. And it did not bring those guys out. Most old farts like me that have out-dated cars and/or engines can still run if they can get them up to spec. Adding more engine spec rules would just lead to one or two newly different cars dominating. They probably had better ideas or more money or both.
You can still claim to have the world's Fastest DeSoto Street Roadster and go to the nearest trophy shop and get one for yourself if it matters that much.
(And to you bikers – you got not a lotta room to criticize with about 20-25% of your records still open after dozens of years.)
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Do we know this guy?
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How did they undo the record holders when they removed rear engine modified roadsters? Or made Sports Racing into Gas Streamliner? If the class made any sense to guys with Lincoln engines and a roadster body, they may have drug it out. I don't know. A lot of people thought Flathead V4 was never going to be much. It's turned out to be pretty popular. Or it was with me. I have a Lincoln and a Packard and I had a roadster. But I failed to see the point of the class as run.
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That's the late Bert Leithold, an electric contractor from Riverside Ca. at Colton Drags circa late '54/early '55.
He's running a straight six in the photo I believe.
There is a poster (poser?) on Landracing that lays claim to the car!
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That comment is a bit harsh.
DW
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That's the late Bert Leithold, an electric contractor from Riverside Ca. at Colton Drags circa late '54/early '55.
He's running a straight six in the photo I believe.
There is a poster (poser?) on Landracing that lays claim to the car!
Sorry I offended you, I thought I recognized the car but obviously I was wrong.
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Caught again . . .
Here's a shot of it when I bought it 2 or 3 years ago . . .
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. . . and when it was the World's Fastest DeSoto-Powered Street Roadster (got the trophy to prove it) . . .
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Stan,
That was a heck of a buy, even 40 or 50 years ago. What is a Clyctore rearend in the ad?
Jim,
You were correct, Stan just had not purchased it yet.
Tom G.
PS. Love those Edmunds Valve Covers even if they are over some Chevy covers. :-o :-o :-o
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I think it was an Italian-made Cyclone.
(Learned to run at least 30 lbs. of air in the rear tires – so I would smoke them, rather than the Cyclatore Ministrone (sp?).
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Stan I have one question. Did you get the 367 trophy's with the purchase? :-)
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. . . and when it was the World's Fastest DeSoto-Powered Street Roadster (got the trophy to prove it) . . .
:evil: :roll: :-D
jl222
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Stan, how about We stuff My 435 cu.in 60' Olds motor in Your roadster. It ran 219 + mph injected on alcohol in my 4,300 lb. Studebaker at Speedweek in 2003 or 2004 (?). That should propel Your roadster into the 300 mph range (no more waiting in line to make a pass!!!). :-o :-o :roll: :-D :cheers:
:mrgreen: "One Run", out..............................................
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One Run... didja fall off the wagon.... or self prescribe your requirement for cannabis after legalization....
need me too send you some Chocolate Chip Cookies :cheers:
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Bob, did you first secure video rights to pictures of Stan's car when it goes down the track in circles?
I mean, c'mon, your engine is known for helping loop the car. Put it a roadster and I imagine things would get squirrely really fast. I want to see the video!!
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Doesn't Stan's car hold the record for "tail lights leading" at El Mirage?
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I'm not sure "leading" is the right word . . .
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I think Stan figured out it was more aero going that direction....
but I heard they DQ'd him because there is not a rear engine street roadster class :cheers:
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Willie reminds me of a Frog in a blender
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That wasn't Willie – it was his mentor.
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What's the best ignition for this glass? Is a mag or can you run a MSD box as long as no computer. No HEI's right?
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George the rule book says mag or points. Computer rule 2.Q rule applies what ever that allows or prohibits.