Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: TrickyDicky on August 10, 2016, 08:15:34 AM
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Guy Martin has been learning to ride the Triumph Rocket Streamliner on the BSF this week and is planning an official attempt on the FIM outright land speed record for 2-wheelers.
http://triumphlandspeed.com/
https://guymartinracing.co.uk/triumph-motorcycles-confirms-new-world-land-speed-record-attempt/
Two questions:
- What sort of profile does Guy have in the USA? I had assumed 'none' but then saw he had been signing autographs with Valerie Thompson.
- Assuming cooperation from the weather, what do the experts here think are his chances of achieving his target? As far as I know it's his first year on the salt so he's on a steep learning curve.
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I thought he was the guy riding the Triumph liner the last time we had enough salt crust to run...
As far as I know there are no experts here to judge his chances... he has the same shot as anyone if he has the HP and the ability to put it to the ground.
I guess we will see :cheers:
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I agree, most of us here don't know $hit about the bike.
Sid.
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Guy has huge following worldwide. He is probably the most famous, current Isle of Man TT competitor, although he retired recently. Now that is a little bit like saying he is "a famous land speed racer", but the TT does have a big following.
He was briefly rumored to be a contender for taking over the popular TV show Top Gear when Clarkson imploded.
My Triumph riding buddies are all over this. It is interesting to have a manufacturer involved in LSR with the marketing budget and all that come with it.
Eric
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Their Facebook page is posting that the are currently the fastest ever Triumph motorcycle @ 274 mph. Runs from yesterday at Cook's privet test?
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https://www.facebook.com/CookLSS
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If he's an Isle of Mann champ, he certainly doesn't lack courage.
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I agree, most of us here don't know $hit about the bike.
Which is a shame as the whole bike was built in the USA - the chassis by Hot Rod Conspiracy and engines by Carpenter Racing. A track racer and record holder on sit-on bikes known as Jason DiSalvo rode it when first tested on the salt in 2013. The bike manufacturer has been smart to have the TT rider Guy Martin take over the controls, as that brings TV coverage in the UK (as part of his series of speed record bids). (And the PR team are getting massive worldwide exposure too).
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Their Facebook page is posting that the are currently the fastest ever Triumph motorcycle @ 274 mph. Runs from yesterday at Cook's privet test?
Yes, yesterday morning.
Cynically, I would suggest 274.2 mph is likely to have been the peak speed recorded during a single run. But I don't know...
Whenever someone claims to be the fastest ever something I wonder who they consider to be the second fastest. In this case, the candidates I can come up with are as follows.
- Fastest officially-recognised record by a Triumph-engine vehicle: Bob Leppan, Gyronaut X-1, 25 August 1966, 245.667 mph FIM and AMA record
- Fastest officially-timed one-way run: Bob Leppan, Gyronaut X-1, 19 or 20 October 1970, 264.437 mph with an estimated top speed "around 270 mph"
- Fastest unofficially-timed one-way run: Boris Murray, Manning Murray streamliner, some time in 1972?, about 272 mph
So for maximum publicity, Guy should set the outright record in just over 2 weeks time, which would be 50 years to the day after the last time a Triumph-engined motorcycle set the record.
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Which is a shame as the whole bike was built in the USA - the chassis by Hot Rod Conspiracy and engines by Carpenter Racing.
I wouldn't say that ... the "core" Rocket III engines were designed and manufactured in Thailand. Bob just did a heck of a job converting them into race engines. :-D
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I am waiting for results.....that is "In the record book, official results".
Bill
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Guy was making some runs in their bakery delivery truck (or whatever - it zoomed past while we were setting up our pit. Sounded like a turbo diesel - looks like a big version of a "toaster'shaped" car. It had a wing on the back, but down far enough it probably didn't cause too much drag :evil: I hear he ran in the 160 range.
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Triumph switched production of the smaller and simpler engines to Asia. They made the big triple in the UK, as of a few years ago. I was going to go and see the triples being made at Hinckley but could not figure out the bus schedule from London.
Guy is a truck mechanic by trade and a normal guy by LSR standards. Just like most of us.
The bike has good aero and maybe the best. A lot of development is in the area around here and we locals know nothing. I am sure if we really cared, and looked hard, we could figure out what is going on. We discussed this among ourselves and decided if they want to be left alone we will oblige.
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Both Guy & Valerie are new to streamliners. They are both on a steep learning curve, so its not about who or where the liners or engines were built or by who.
Its about racing for record speeds, both are great riders in their own right & getting used to new riding/driving style, so lets just see what transpires when the liners are ready to go for the records.
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I was talking with some Cook event people about how Guy got in the 'liner and left the line hard -- and had the skids/training wheels up damn quick. Get after it and go!
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Triumph switched production of the smaller and simpler engines to Asia. They made the big triple in the UK, as of a few years ago. I was going to go and see the triples being made at Hinckley but could not figure out the bus schedule from London.
Here's how they do it................
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKEuzxC4eGc
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ROTFLMFAO!!!
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ROTFLMFAO!!!
"What you talkin'bout Willis" :?
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"World's Fastest Triumph"? Actually, it's about 90MPH short. Keith Copeland's Black Salt Racing C/BFMS Triumph GT-6 has that record at 364+MPH! Plus, it has to overcome the extra friction from a total of four wheels! Unfortunately, it didn't do all that well when I was there Saturday, as course conditions weren't all that great.
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"World's Fastest Triumph"? Keith Copeland's Black Salt Racing C/BFMS Triumph GT-6 has that record at 364+MPH!
For the Factory it must be the make of engines that count, as not much else on the streamlined bike is from Hinckley. The modern bike building Company does not have any car background or interest in four wheels. Keith had to 'junk' the Triumph engine to power the GT6 bodywork that is left from the screen back and replace it with a V8. Even 'back in the day' you could not get such an engine conversion from the road car maker. [On a presumed like for like speed basis Keith leads at 381 to 274mph.]
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For the Factory it must be the make of engines that count, as not much else on the streamlined bike is from Hinckley.
I think it's more about the sticker on the side.
Andy - feeling cynical :-D
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Is there anyone out there, and reading this, able to confirm whether Guy and the Triumph team are setting up for a record attempt this week?
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Is there anyone out there, and reading this, able to confirm whether Guy and the Triumph team are setting up for a record attempt this week?
I would like to know as well ... when I look it up on "their" social media sites all I get is promos on buying Triumph motorcycles...
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Is there anyone out there, and reading this, able to confirm whether Guy and the Triumph team are setting up for a record attempt this week?
I would like to know as well ... when I look it up on "their" social media sites all I get is promos on buying Triumph motorcycles...
From social media GM suggests the attempt is likely to be in mid September, when I hope they will go head to head with the current record holder Ack Attack and the 'Seven' bike too. All seems to depend on the skills of the Cook Shootout team to prepare a suitable course. It will be interesting to see how well they function sharing the salt.
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OK, a bit of googling shows that the 23-24 August plan has slipped to "mid-September". Reading between the lines, it seems Mike Cook could not find a good enough course for 400 mph this week.
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Just Got Back from BMST, No Guy Martin or Triumph Streamliner !!
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They keep pushing it back. One of his press releases about a month ago said that he only had a two day window between races in late August that he would be able to run at Bonneville. I would guess that when he finally got in it, everyone released it won't be that easy to setup and run in a few hours. I would guess he will be at Cook's, or it will have to wait another year.
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He's on Cook's list as being entered for the Shootout.
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Other than on private time, the Cook Meeting is the only event at which to set FIM Motorcycle speed records on a long course. Fingers crossed that the salt is good enough.
There are three more British contenders (two in different FIM Classes to those double piston engined bikes) getting ready to go faster than the current record speed, the next record speed or even 400mph.
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There are three more British contenders (two in different FIM Classes to those double piston engined bikes) getting ready to go faster than the current record speed, the next record speed or even 400mph.
Malcolm, will any of those Brits (apart from Guy Martin) be at Bonneville this year? They're not on the current list of entries for the Shootout.
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My understanding is that none of the British built streamlined 'bike teams will 'risk' the surface conditions at Bonneville this year. But there again Mike Cook has listed dates in October for "a British team", so I may be proved wrong.
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Well the press in the UK seem to suggest that conditions on Thursday were too wet but a record attempt today (Friday) might be possible. Good luck to everyone involved and safe racing.
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I heard rumors yesterday that there were problems with the Triumph bike. I did not hear specifically what the alleged problems were, though. As for conditions, although I did not drive the course, they didn't appear to be all that bad. The two teams that ran for records were successful, but the speeds required weren't that high.
The course was definitely not wet on Thursday, but it seemed a bit soft. The consensus seemed to be that most would prefer to wait until today (Friday) in hopes that the sun and wind would help improve the course some by making it harder.
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I read on Instagram that they dumped the bike just past the 1 mile mark due to rough conditions. Guy Martin is ok, the bike needs some work.
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They're not a real bike liner until they've fallen over, it's not a case of "if", it's a case of "how many times".
Sid.
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For those in the UK: Sunday, 8pm, Channel 4, Speed with Guy Martin.
"The inside story of Guy Martin's recent attempt to break the motorcycle land speed record: his most dangerous challenge to date. Can Guy become the first man to do 400mph on a motorcycle?"
I think we know the answer ... at least for 2016.
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Look like they may have a bit of a handling problem. Amazing that he kept on the wheels, good thing the track was hard and dry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2B0QbixkG-I
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WOW !
Thanks for sharing the clip Ack
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Look like they may have a bit of a handling problem. Amazing that he kept on the wheels, good thing the track was hard and dry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2B0QbixkG-I
The whole programme (47 mins 19 secs) can be seen at http://www.channel4.com/programmes/speed-with-guy-martin/on-demand/61928-001 for another 25 days. [Not sure whether that link will work outside the UK.]
My impression is that the issue was caused by a combination of the course conditions and a rider still learning, rather than any inherent problem with the bike. But my two-wheel expertise at anything over about 25 mph is close to zero. Everything seemed to smooth out above 200 mph.
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My opinion, the steering is too fast leading to over input from trying to correct a small problem & turning it in to a big one. Kudos to him for saving it by locking the steering down with his knees. In the flying world that is called a pilot induced oscillation but in this case it's a ratio issue not a pilot issue.
Sid.
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What was wrong with that piece of salt?
DW
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Not wearing gloves? Strange...
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You do not need gloves on a test run, nothing is going to go wrong! Maybe the previous rider was right to have reservations.
When seen at the 'Shootout' the fire resistant gloves and the arm restraints are seen to go on.
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the track was infinitely smoother two months after the 271 at
the shootout....and speeds about 100 mph slower...
dw...in the full video the team surmised ruts and such in that section
may have been the culprit...about 39:56...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl1f9uuaP2s
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So, you are telling me that the video was put together from runs in July and runs in Sept with no info telling us when? For example, in July we did not set up mile markers. In Sept the 11 mile marker(plus all others) were set. Guy did not hit a 271 in Sept IIRC.
DW
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I'm not telling you ..I posted the video so it could speak for itself ...it shows July runs ..the 271 run reasoning behind handling (track ) then speaks of running many weeks later and new footage and mishaps from sept
I made the mention that st shootout course was yet smoother than many weeks earlier when they went 271...
only as fodder following an earlier thought posted that it seemed course/ rider experience culprit over any inherent issues with vehicle itself
Just observations ...
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That is a weave and different than a speed wobble. A wobble is much higher frequency and the instability is the wheel flopping around in a harmonic imbalance. It looks like the wheel is steady in this video and the harmonic imbalance is in the steering mechanism.
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No steering wheel as commonly known. The bike uses joy sticks and it looks like Guy braces his hands against his knees to steady the bike.
DW
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That is a weave and different than a speed wobble. A wobble is much higher frequency and the instability is the wheel flopping around in a harmonic imbalance. It looks like the wheel is steady in this video and the harmonic imbalance is in the steering mechanism.
Could be the center of gravity of the bike is pushed back too far. The next harmonic may occur at about 294 mph.
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That is what I think, too. Some lead placed near the steering stem calms my bike down when it starts the weave.
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You can't think in terms of a ride on bike when it comes to a bike liner because there is no rider weight shift, just like you can't treat a four wheel liner like a door slammer. Take another look at the video as he changes direction to go to his pit, that steering is too fast even for a four wheel liner.
Simply going through a ground thermal or a short cross wind could start off the right-left-right weave & the over correction compounds the situation. It was an accident looking for somewhere to happen when he had the foresight to shove his knees in it. Steering being too fast has got a lot of people into trouble with four wheelers on the salt but they usually just become spin clubbers.
Sid.
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Sid you could be correct , but a sit on rider is not shifting weight much if at all at speed , personally i am gripping the tank with knees and elbows , still able to move my shoulders and upper body a little ,i think at this point the riders of both sorts of bike are not necessarily exactly the same but still similar , and that motion looks very familiar
i have had it when the front was lowered too much and contacted the front fairing on the fender slowing the steering like an overactive damper ,(Not the same sort of slowing steering that could help )
also with all the weight i carry i am often battling with a weight imbalance and this is 3 dimensional height of your COG matters more than most think .
On good hard salt you will not know you have a problem,but damp or soft salt, a dust devil or x wind will set it off
My feeling like the other riders is its primarily a weight placement issue, maybe compounded by steering control
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Sid, on a normal bike we can slow the steering by increasing the trail. Our steering is at a 1:1 ratio and it is sorta hard to change. It seems like there are two options on the triumph liner. One is to change the steering ratio be linkage change and the other is to increase trail. Any thoughts on this?
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I would expect it would be a lot less work to try a ratio change with steering arms, even multiple position holes to tailor the feel for the driver rather that saying this is it, learn to like it.
Sid.
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I think that weave can also be caused by steering bearings which are set too tight or a steering damper that is set too tight (I believe a small amount of free movement is beneficial). A bike that is well designed and set up correctly will naturally want to go straight. But either of the above conditions can cause the rider to have to force the bike into a straight line and may cause him to overcorrect due to the resistance of the steering components, setting up an oscillation.
Tom
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I think that weave can also be caused by steering bearings which are set too tight or a steering damper that is set too tight (I believe a small amount of free movement is beneficial). A bike that is well designed and set up correctly will naturally want to go straight. But either of the above conditions can cause the rider to have to force the bike into a straight line and may cause him to overcorrect due to the resistance of the steering components, setting up an oscillation.
Tom
[/quote
A slow weave problem developed for me years ago after I had the front end of a street bike apart, readjusting the old style friction steering damper didn't help. Loosened up the adjustment just a tad on the steering head bearings [non caged balls in race type], reset the damper, and the problem went away with no other changes.
Ed
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Hello All,
I saw this thread and I have some input here as the safety of the rider is so critical with this weave issue
1- everything that has been mentioned is valid ( too quick steering, not enough trail, CG and CP too close together, etc).
2- I would love to see the weather conditions for all the runs as pertaining to winds,,,, no other vehicle I know of has greater sensitivity to "Yaw Input" than a two wheel motorcycle streamliner....
The steering head bearings can be thought of as a "hinge" in the chassis in the lateral direction.
Any crosswind, whatsoever, will create an aerodynamic/mechanical instability that can build with speed until it equals,,,
thens exceeds the natural stability of the rolling chassis. Aircraft can swing their nose into the wind and "Crab"
forward, as they are a free body in a fluid medium, whereas tires in contact with the ground prevent doing this
in a ground vehicle....
I would have your team member aero specialist look at this ......
3- Do you 100% know for a fact the natural frequency of the chassis, and are you monitoring the vibrations in the chassis with your data acquiring system???
I have a simple method for finding the natural frequency, that works for any vehicle, if you would like to try it...
Good luck and be safe,
Robert "Smitty" Smith
Former Air Racing Crew Chief
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Not wearing gloves? Strange...
I saw 273 on the dash
That doesn't make it a record
However, where are his gloves
I don't care if he's just doing a test run, he is supposed to wear his safety gear
G
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Not wearing gloves? Strange...
I saw 273 on the dash
That doesn't make it a record
However, where are his gloves
I don't care if he's just doing a test run, he is supposed to wear his safety gear
G
The event in question was private time for testing. It might be good practice to wear gloves at all times, but as far as I know there is nothing that says he has to.
As Malcolm UK pointed out, when the filming moves to the Shootout he is seen putting on gloves and tethers to reduce the amount his wrists/arms can move around. He also changed to a higher spec helmet.
As someone who has raced and crashed on the Isle of Man, Guy Martin's attitude to risk may be different to most people's.
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@thebarron: can you post about your method of determining natural frequency? I would be interested as I have experienced weaving on a stretched drag bike
Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
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I think that weave can also be caused by steering bearings which are set too tight or a steering damper that is set too tight (I believe a small amount of free movement is beneficial). A bike that is well designed and set up correctly will naturally want to go straight. But either of the above conditions can cause the rider to have to force the bike into a straight line and may cause him to overcorrect due to the resistance of the steering components, setting up an oscillation.
Tom
I thinking along the same lines as Tom on this.
The problem for sure is not the salt in this case, saying that will only lead to not fixing the problem. They need to take a good look at the entire steering setup on their bike, because something is completely out of wack.
That said, it could be the simplest thing, say damper to tight, or kingpin "dragging", not enough caster angle, thus not enough trail. I doubt that the steering ratio has much if anything to do with the weave I saw, If anything it looked like he was using way more input (movement) than the standard 1:1 ratio found on normal ride on bike. I rarely use more that 1/8" during a run, ruts and all.
Hopefully they will figure out that the issue is something that is simple and easy to fix. One thing for sure, it needs fixing.
Rouse
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To test for the natural frequency of a chassis or even a single part, all one has to do is suspend the item from its balance center (a rope or chain), and then firmly tap the item's with a rubber or leather mallet.... It will vibrate for several seconds at its natural frequency just like a tuning fork...Note, you strike the chassis frame and not any body work or other secondary materials.
Now measuring that frequency is best done with a acceleration transducer system...They can be rented but are pricey as they are scientific/engineering level equipment.
Low cost way that works fine is to use a microphone and any audio recorder to record the "ring". Garage band shure microphones work fine. Find an electronic guy that has an oscilloscope and feed the audio recording to the o-scope by hooking the o-scope probe to the speaker leads....You will see the natural frequency as a sine wave on the scope.
AS a sidebar, the 500 two-stroke GP Honda "Big Bang" motors of the "80's" were understood only after another team made trackside audio recordings of the bike going by and then playing the recording thru an O-scope they could see the uneven firing intervals exactly.
Robert
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Interesting video,,
This bike has made "many" +200mph passes since it was first ran in 2013,, I notice that the "weave" is in the mid to high 190mph range, one would assume that had this weave occurred in previous passes thay would have had it corrected by now,, listing to Guys comentry it seems to have caught him by surprise,, I also notice that when he snappes the throttle off, the thing becomes stable,, also, without gloves on he would have improved "feel" input into the steering system, with wearing fireproof (thick) gloves would slow the feel into the steering movement ,,
Question, was this pass the first time that the weave occurred, if so ,is something changed in the geometry, aero of the machine :?
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Anyone know whether Guy Martin/Triumph are planning to be back in 2017?
There doesn't appear to be any recent publicity. The best I can come up with is a quote from November 2016:
Triumph’s Chief Commercial Officer, Paul Stroud, said: “We are 100% committed, as is Guy Martin, to breaking the overall motorcycle land speed record. We are absolutely focussed on going way beyond the record that we set this year of 274.2mph, which we broke during testing in incredibly challenging condition, conditions that held us back from a full top speed attempt. Next summer, we will be back at Bonneville. Weather and conditions permitting, we hope to bring the record home to Triumph for the fifth time in the brand’s history, which would be a record in itself.”
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Thay are listed as entrants at the Shootout :-)