Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Avanti Kid on July 26, 2016, 01:23:31 PM
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Hi everyone, some of you know I've raced in Land Speed racing for 23 years, lately I have three safety concerns that I wondering what your opinions about them would be,
1st one is using the rear spoiler on some cars that have spun out at over 200 mph for any reason, the rear spoiler catches the air when the vehilce is going backwards, causing the car to lift up and flip and crash, my suggestion is use the 2nd way our Rule book calls out the method for installing a rear spoiler, use the one that has the hinge which if you are going backwards would just dump the (air) lifting of the car via the rear wing, maybe avoiding a crash.
2nd one, some folks have their dry sump tank in the passenger seat area of their race car, my concern is what would happen if one of those very hot oil lines came of during a run and prayed hot oil on the driver?? My suggestion is to install a sheet Lexan between the driver and the dry sump tank.
3rd, do we need to pay more attention to the loads we put on our tires so we do not load them past their specs?? I know that ballast is our friend at Bonneville, but do we need to know the weight on the tires from static loads and down force from rear spoiler or front air dam?? Thanks, looking forward to some responses, Dave Bloomberg :cheers:
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I don't believe there is much pressure on the oil lines to/from the tank. Hard to see them coming apart. Has there been any that have come apart, needing a change in rules? If there is concern for oil spray during a crash, I think sheets of lexan would be one more thing to impale the driver with, and probably wouldn't survive the crash anyway. I don't think there would be much diffference between a oil tank in the car, or the engine blowing up in a front engine open car. You are still going to get covered in hot junk.
Jeff
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I think you should do everything and anything you can to reduce your risk. The more choices that you make to reduce your risk increases the chances by and equal amount that you will have an enjoyable experience.
Sometimes it is hard to find the right place for something. That passenger compartment is big and full of room to put things. I have seen oil tanks and I have seen turbos sitting in the passenger seat. There sometimes isn't enough engineering time to get everything just right.
That said, if it looks wrong or dangerous it probably is and you should change it. If it doesn't look wrong or dangerous, maybe you haven't looked at it hard enough. :-D
Do whatever you can to raise the margin of safety as close to 100% as you possible can in everything you do, not just LSR.
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Thanks guys for your responses, I just wanted to bring up some things that maybe new racers have not thought of, the official way for me to suggest changes is thru the SCTA rules changes procedures, which I will look into if there is enough interest, item #2 is already in the rule book, I appreciate and pros or cons, thanks
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If you have something in your vehicle you don't like, then change it but don't go about hunting down unnecessary rule changes inflicting more work & expense to racers, most of whom run on tight budgets.
Did.
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Avanti... name me a car that has flipped and crashed from the rear spoiler catching air.
Most spins and crashes that I have seen videos of were of coupes with no spoilers or stock ones, resulting in rear lift and loss of traction.
The 222 Camaro has a spoiler built to max SCTA rules and I have spun out at over 260 mph with no lift and stayed flat.
Spin was caused by rain on track.
We have a lot of weight on the rear tires but not nearly as much as other fast cars have ran.
As far as weight,speed and tire pressure limits. It's called cover your ass.
I personally have driven the 222 Camaro 288 mph with a 279mph exit speed with the regular front runners [ this was before the 300 mph tires were available] and with 45lbs of air, not the roller skating 90lbs recommended.
Do as Sid says.
JL222
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I did see years ago a video of a Corvette that spun at high speed and when going backwards, the car started going up in the air while going backwards, but then the video showed the rear spoiler coming off the car, then the cars came back down on the salt and did not flip, just spun and was OK, but that is why the Rule book does call out a rear spoiler that has a hinge to dump that air, its up to you which spoiler system you chose in the rule book. Glad you have been doing very well with your car at extremely high speeds, Dave.
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Avanti... name me a car that has flipped and crashed from the rear spoiler catching air.
Most spins and crashes that I have seen videos of were of coupes with no spoilers or stock ones, resulting in rear lift and loss of traction.
The 222 Camaro has a spoiler built to max SCTA rules and I have spun out at over 260 mph with no lift and stayed flat.
Spin was caused by rain on track.
We have a lot of weight on the rear tires but not nearly as much as other fast cars have ran.
As far as weight,speed and tire pressure limits. It's called cover your Acura.
I personally have driven the 222 Camaro 288 mph with a 279mph exit speed with the regular front runners [ this was before the 300 mph tires were available] and with 45lbs of air, not the roller skating 90lbs recommended.
Do as Sid says.
JL222
This is the only one I can think of off the top of my head....
(http://archive.sltrib.com/images/2010/0815/speedweekcrash_081610~P1.jpg)
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Bob Johnson's Caddy C/C?
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Stringfelllow and Kirk. but there has been several other blow overs as well.
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Spin was caused by rain on track.
You don't suppose the 3 million horsepower had anything to do with it do you? :cheers:
Not sure the rule book calls for a hinge so that the spoiler will flip up. I think most cars have the hinge to allow adjustment of the angle of the spoiler. However, I built the spoiler on the firebird to flip up and it has limiting cables to work like a roof flap would.
As for the dry sump tanks, in road racing we are generally required to box them in to separate them from the driver. I would not care to drive a car with the tank open in the cockpit. It's easy to cover with a sheet metal box with some screws or dzus fasteners to enable removing the box for service.
As for tires, we learned that regular front runners don't like being on a spinning car. When we spun the truck, immediately after the 222 camaro spun, it ripped one of the rear tires off and destroyed the wheel. We were happy to stay on the ground but I think it would take more speed to blow that truck over.
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https://youtu.be/Hk5DTlgAtt4
hard to tell but it may have a stock spoiler........Glen announcing :cheers:
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I built a trap door into My rear spoiler after the Stringfellow and Kirk crash. If You look at the entire series of still photo's of the incident the car starts to lift and as it rises the spoiler bows up in the center. The higher it goes the more it distorts and resembles a parachute blossoming.
Being to stupid to download pictures on this sight, if someone else would post these for Me I will email them to You.
Bob Drury
#394 Old Stud Racing
A/CFALT
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Spin was caused by rain on track.
You don't suppose the 3 million horsepower had anything to do with it do you? :cheers:
Not sure the rule book calls for a hinge so that the spoiler will flip up. I think most cars have the hinge to allow adjustment of the angle of the spoiler. However, I built the spoiler on the firebird to flip up and it has limiting cables to work like a roof flap would.
As for the dry sump tanks, in road racing we are generally required to box them in to separate them from the driver. I would not care to drive a car with the tank open in the cockpit. It's easy to cover with a sheet metal box with some screws or dzus fasteners to enable removing the box for service.
As for tires, we learned that regular front runners don't like being on a spinning car. When we spun the truck, immediately after the 222 camaro spun, it ripped one of the rear tires off and destroyed the wheel. We were happy to stay on the ground but I think it would take more speed to blow that truck over.
Yeah...less hp would have helped but we never have trouble spinning, or spinning the tires in high gear at Bville
I pulled the chute before it went around and after stopping it was sopping wet.
I spun in the 3rd mile were did you guys spin? There was a slight sprinkle when I left, must have been more at the 3.
I would like to hinge our spoiler but the deck lit is rounded across and up. A major redo, a good idea but not possible on all cars if you want a 10in. spoiler. A 12in spoiler would give more down force and less spins.
JL222
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Thanks everyone for those good inputs, especially javajoe79, your remarks were very helpful, I did look at my 2016 Rule Book and at section 4.CC.8 Spoiler item "Approach One" no longer calls out a hinge, but in my 2013 Rule Book is does call out the use of a hinge, (it says The spoiler must have a continuous surface no wider than the outside edge of the rear tires, the maximum cord measured on top surface at the center of car can be 10". A 1" tab or a hinge can be added to the leading edge of the spoiler for mounting purposes only.) but the mention of a hinge is missing from Approach 1 now, but I think it is a good idea to use a hinge to dump the air if it can be installed on your car, but this is meant to be just a suggestion, thanks everyone for you very helpful remarks, see you at Speed Week.
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Spin was caused by rain on track.
You don't suppose the 3 million horsepower had anything to do with it do you? :cheers:
Not sure the rule book calls for a hinge so that the spoiler will flip up. I think most cars have the hinge to allow adjustment of the angle of the spoiler. However, I built the spoiler on the firebird to flip up and it has limiting cables to work like a roof flap would.
As for the dry sump tanks, in road racing we are generally required to box them in to separate them from the driver. I would not care to drive a car with the tank open in the cockpit. It's easy to cover with a sheet metal box with some screws or dzus fasteners to enable removing the box for service.
As for tires, we learned that regular front runners don't like being on a spinning car. When we spun the truck, immediately after the 222 camaro spun, it ripped one of the rear tires off and destroyed the wheel. We were happy to stay on the ground but I think it would take more speed to blow that truck over.
Yeah...less hp would have helped but we never have trouble spinning, or spinning the tires in high gear at Bville
I pulled the chute before it went around and after stopping it was sopping wet.
I spun in the 3rd mile were did you guys spin? There was a slight sprinkle when I left, must have been more at the 3.
I would like to hinge our spoiler but the deck lit is rounded across and up. A major redo, a good idea but not possible on all cars if you want a 10in. spoiler. A 12in spoiler would give more down force and less spins.
JL222
I believe he spun in the 3rd mile too. Somewhere near 200mph I think. I believe someone else spun right after us. It was sprinkling and blowing pretty good. They should have stopped up from running but they were rushing us to run instead.
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Here is the spoiler on the bird flipped up.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13532856_900871553356073_2756289385708915347_n.jpg?oh=207f1bd63ee145568799930301bea6a9&oe=582D2751)
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Thanks, the design you show in your photo on your car is exactly what I'm suggesting for more safety, take care, Dave
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You would not need to hinge the whole spoiler, you could also have a flap that normally rests flat on top of the spoiler plate that is hinged to "pick up" if airflow is reversed (perhaps with a small gurney lip on the back of the flap to help it stay down when going forward and help it come up when going backward).
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The Gurney lip(s) would probably be declared illegal as they would provide more downforce :evil:
More seriously, a pair of flaps, flush mounted, would work well, I believe. Flaps are required in the cowl area of NASCAR Cup cars; you can see them bopping around when drafting is close on superspeedways. We used to hold them down a bit tighter with soft springs, but that was banned.
A few years ago we took a record-holding (over 200 mph) classic coupe to the A2 wind tunnel for evaluation and recommendation of aero improvements. The car had an Implementation Approach 1 spoiler. As part of our quest for knowledge, we made our last run with the car BACKWARDS (180*). The result was approximately 750# of lift on the rear of the car. (If we had been at Lockheed, we could have yawed the car in a controlled 360* spin, measuring aero change every 5 or ten degrees of rotation. THAT would be interesting). Needless to say, we recommended flaps or hinging as part of the aero improvements. My thinking, it can't hurt and is pretty simple to do. Also, a hinge need, follow the body contour, just place the hinge at the most readward point of the contour. And tethers are simple to make or source.
John, think of the flaps as burst panels for your car. :-D
vic
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"A pair of flaps, flush mounted, would work well, I believe."
I'm absolutely no expert here --- but don't Nascar cars have open side window(s) that change the whole formula?
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I bought some used NASCAR roof flaps with the thought of installing them. When they arrived I realized I do not have enough room between the cage and the roof panel to install them.
One thought was to install them on the trunk (decklid for some of you) . The unanswered question is, would they spoil enough air on the trunk to reduce the lift going backwards? Seems logical that they would, but NASCAR requires flaps on the roof so there must be a good reason.
Chris: You are a master fabricator and this question is in no way challenging your design. When I built my option 1 spoiler I thought about hinging it. It seemed to me at the time that once the car turned anywhere near 180 degrees that the spoiler would probably rip itself off the car. I have never seen a car up close with a spoiler that has spun. Do the spoilers stay attached in most cases? After seeing your design I see where I can easily convert my spoiler to a hinged design. What is the gauge of the aluminum on the spoiler deck?
Thanks,
BR
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Ideally the car stays straight :-D The shape of this car in back really allows the maximum dimensions of the spoiler to be achieved both in height and length of the end fences. I suppose it might rip itself off but I doubt it. All of the spoiler is made from .090". The middle of the cross bar that the chord lays on is anchored on the ends and at two points in the middle, down to the chute mount structure. Not sure how hard of a hit it would see from 2-300mph wind but I slammed it against the tethers pretty hard and it seems really solid. If it suffers damage from a spin we will learn something and make improvements to prevent further damage.
I haven't seen a spoiler ripped off a car, maybe others have? I did see the hood ripped off the 222 car in the incident we were discussing above so that worries me a bit about the firebird but I used 20 camlocs to hold the hood on. Daryl still has to glass the cowl into the hood and contour it with the windshield so maybe some camlocs around the cowl into the windshield are in order to prevent hood removal at speed?
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The spoiler may stay attached......... :-o To the trunk lid....... :-D
That's why so many of the 300 mph cars weigh over 5,000 lbs. :cheers:
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Bob Drury ask me to post this for him. Something about picture size, shape, orientation......... I think he just wants pictures of his race car on line..... :-D
I asked Mike LeFever to post these for Me so lets See how this works. Thanx Mike.
Here are a couple of things I have done: The second picture shows My "high-tech automatic closure system... a screen door spring I found on My workbench... The hood shot is to show where I mounted the fire extinguisher access doors which is right above the center of My headers on each side. Bob
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Mike, George Voss told me his Monza weighs 7000 lbs. I believe it, we barrowed some lead from him in 09 when it was slick and mushy between the 4 and 5 mile markers.
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A couple more.... 8-)
OH WAIT!! I'm not sure I was suppose to post that last one...................... :evil:
Oh well... :-D
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What that last picture doesn't show is Stan Back running for cover! I had a compass malfunction ...
Old One Run, out....................................................
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Mike, I was talking to Bob as you were posting these!
A couple more.... 8-)
OH WAIT!! I'm not sure I was suppose to post that last one...................... :evil:
Oh well... :-D
:-D :-D :-D
Gregg
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ORB heard something about a chase truck -- he took it as an instruction.
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Thanks for posting that last picture..."Ray the Rat" brought his talent to the salt and contributed to our sport. :cheers:
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Ideally the car stays straight :-D The shape of this car in back really allows the maximum dimensions of the spoiler to be achieved both in height and length of the end fences. I suppose it might rip itself off but I doubt it. All of the spoiler is made from .090". The middle of the cross bar that the chord lays on is anchored on the ends and at two points in the middle, down to the chute mount structure. Not sure how hard of a hit it would see from 2-300mph wind but I slammed it against the tethers pretty hard and it seems really solid. If it suffers damage from a spin we will learn something and make improvements to prevent further damage.
I haven't seen a spoiler ripped off a car, maybe others have? I did see the hood ripped off the 222 car in the incident we were discussing above so that worries me a bit about the firebird but I used 20 camlocs to hold the hood on. Daryl still has to glass the cowl into the hood and contour it with the windshield so maybe some camlocs around the cowl into the windshield are in order to prevent hood removal at speed?
We never had a problem with spoiler after spinning but did bend a sideplate
once and it was 3/16th aluminum. but hitting the mile marker might have something to do with it :-P
We added two hood pins at rear of hood next to where it rises up. Hopefully
that will help.
JL222
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:cheers:
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hey Scott, hope you guys can make it this year
ted :cheers: