Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: JimW on September 29, 2006, 09:39:33 PM
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I need a specific answer as to the legality of a set of leathers I have found.
Can someone here tell me or Who can I send these questions (and pictures if necessary) to in order to get a definitive answer?
This is an all leather suit ? no fabric panels. I know that this is good.
The zipper that zips the pants to the jacket is plastic ? I believe that this has to be replaced with a metal zipper.
There are perforations behind each knee. I know the rules allow limited perforations. There are 55 round holes, each 1/16 th inch in diameter, the holes spaced 5/8 of an inch from each other on a square grid pattern behind each knee. Does this meet the limited perforation rule?
There are perforations under each arm. Again 1/16 th inch holes on the same 5/8 th inch square grid pattern. The pattern is six holes wide and 33 holes long (198 holes) and runs on the inside of the arm from about the elbow, to armpit, and about 11 inches down the side of the jacket on each side. Does this meet the limited perforation rule?
The other zippers on the suit are plastic (jacket front, pants (6 inch zipper), end of each arm (4 inch zipper), end of each leg (8 inch zipper) and above each knee for a pad insert (5 inch zipper). Are these ok as plastic or would they have to be replaced with metal?
If not legal for perforation reasons, is there an acceptable way to fill some or all of the holes?
This is a big expenditure for my meager budget. I need to be sure I get it right.
Thanks. A lot.
Jim.
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Thats an interesting question. I don't believe the perforations would be a problem. The plastic zipper might. I would e-mail Russ O'Daly the MC tech head. You can get him at www.lsrmctech@adelphia.net. If anyone can give you a definitive answer he can. The last time I e-mailed him he came right back with an answer.
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Thanks. I dropped Russ an email. I'll let you know what he says.
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At Speedweek 2005 my leathers were failed at inspection because of perforations. I would not take a chance if I were you. No vents, no perforations. If you are at Bonneville there is just no way to get your leathers tailored.
I sewed and glued patches over the perforations and that made the inspectors happy.
Don
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I'd say no also,based on the amount of perforations extending so far.You could get away with the back of the knee and armpit,but that much at the elbow area all the way up and down ----
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I had a similar set of leathers with perfs up the inside of the arms and down the sides. About $100 at the leather tailor to have another layer sewn into place to cover the perfs with a handful of perfs left under each armpit. Your cost may vary. Since I had it done during the busy time around Sturgis it took about three weeks to have them done. The actual work took a couple hours (one seam along each piece was actually split and sewn back together to keep things smoother).
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The problem is that the SCTA rule book (if that is what you are going by) says LIMITED perforations are allowed. It does not define limited, so each inspector has his own idea of what limited is. One inspector would pass you, while another might not. Is limited 100 perforations or 2? That is a big problem.
You might get an "official" answer from SCTA M/C tech now, but that sure does not mean that the inspectors at an SCTA meet will adhere to it.
Don
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I think the test is if you can cover the holes up with your hand ,you might pass!!! the hole size is small so maybe if your hand can cover it!!! it is a big grey area and at bonneville we get a bunch of volinteer inspectors that show up and give there interpitation of the rules, another problem. the best thing to do is get them to El Mo in oct or Nov meet and have them take a look. See Russ or Tom!! no one else!!! Amanda at Speed Sport in Tulsa Ok is fantastic in leather repair and is very reasonable.she does a lot of road race rash repair and is usually slow in the off season (dec-jan) and has made me a complete SCTA legal suite. I know she also did Mark Myers from ohio leathers. I loaned Andy Jones a tube of silicone at bonneville to smeer over his holes. Didnt get the tube back so i assume he used the whole darn thing. I know he raced so he must have got them legal.
kent
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the area for repair was all leather but had too big of area and hole size.
the silicone was to cover and fill holes, not to fix cloth panels. i understand the reason for the rule is to prevent oil, gas, water to absorb into the cloth panels as well as the holes to allow hot or burning fluids to pass through the protection, compounding the injury. in recent years a rider had a motor blow covering the rider with hot oil. the bike and rider cought on fire and the cloth expantion panels cought on fire burninig his groin area, not fun!!! This rider i beleave also wore nomex under his leathers. The sweat soaked nomex turned into steam under his leathers and steam burns were the cause of most of the injuries. When a bike catches fire at 200mph what do ya do? ride it out or bail off? Holes or no holes? how bad do you want to be injured?
Another recent trend is for the riders to have a remote fuel tank and remove the tank that covers there motor allowing the rider to get about an inch lower. if the motor blows an fuel line or a turbo oil line and the bike catches fire he removed the first covering of protection. I remember when Brock Davidson had a nitrous backfire on his 97 gsxr750. he sprayed nos into his airbox. when the motor coughed, it litterly blew the nos filled airbox up and it ripped the steal gas tank mounting bolts out of the frame and blew him off his dragbike at about the 60ft. not good
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The one rider injured was only burnt from steam when the hot oil got on his leathers.Not from cloth panels,ventilation holes,etc.He was sweating in his hot,unventilated leathers and got steam burns from his own sweat.Not from fire.This has been gone over here several times and the rider piped in with the real story.
We can get the same sort of burns under our turnouts when sweating alot in a nice hot fire.
I am still of the opinion the all leather rule is off target as the only leather items in our firefighting gear are our gloves,Nomex,Kevlar,etc are our best protections from the heat,yet these are the "cloth" panels being denied.
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The one rider injured was only burnt from steam when the hot oil got on his leathers.Not from cloth panels,ventilation holes,etc.He was sweating in his hot,unventilated leathers and got steam burns from his own sweat.Not from fire.This has been gone over here several times and the rider piped in with the real story.
We can get the same sort of burns under our turnouts when sweating alot in a nice hot fire.
I am still of the opinion the all leather rule is off target as the only leather items in our firefighting gear are our gloves,Nomex,Kevlar,etc are our best protections from the heat,yet these are the "cloth" panels being denied.
The rulers making the rules never bothered to ask the very experienced rider about
the mishap but chose to make a decision based in bad information with experience to match.
Safety measures in the fuel system demand the most attention and then rider protection
can deal with what is left more effectively
What you have is such a "KNEE JERK REACTION" that only results in a black eye.
***THAT WAS MY NICE***.
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Hi I have been getting a MC ready for El Mirage / Bonneville this coming year. I have not been able to get my hands on one of the SCTA rule books yet and I want to have my leathers made. I had a couple of questions. My understanding is they must be ALL LEATHER, no perforations. Any thing else. is a speed hump allowable on a none streamlined bike? Do the zippers need to be made of brass or is nylon acceptable. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks
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I just re-read the rule book. It does not specify metal or plastic for the zipper.
No perforations (it says limited perfs, but just say no), and no cloth or non-leather anywhere. 100% leather.
You can have a speed hump if you are running Partial Streamlining class (such as APS) ONLY. The hump can ONLY be made of cloth or leather.
Don
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thanks
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cool, just ordered a SYED suit. No vents or perfs , 1 piece , back protecter, over size, 2 color, all leather. did I miss something?
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The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:
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The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:
Not so with the DLRA mandatory for all classes :)
Gary
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The back protection that is required in many other types of racing is neglected in SCTA.
Expert opinions agree that it is more appropriate than an all leather for supposed fire protection. :wink:
Not so with the DLRA mandatory for all classes :)
Gary
Good job DLRA and Gary.
Leading by example is the best-first step and the sanction body owes it to the participants. \:D/
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So let me weigh in here. I am new to land speed racing. I made my first event at Maxton in September (planning Maxton & Bonneville in 2007)- in my brand new leathers built to Maxton/Bonneville spec by Vanson - $1425 - including my drag racing nick name Tin Man on the back. The nick name came from my conservative approach to racing with so much protective gear that my wife jokingly gave me the name in response to how I appeared with all my armored gear. Unfortunately, my drag racing gear - or any off the shelf gear that I am aware of can not meet the Bonneville/Maxton spec - so $1425 later, (not counting the additional $1,100 in helmet, gloves and boots), I am confident that I have the ultimate setup for a dismount on salt or asphalt at speeds of 200MPH or so.......BUT - I also believe that this set-up increases the likelihood of a possible accident as a result of decreased mobility from the all leather, heavily armored suit as well as the additional fatigue and effects of the excessive heat including further restriction of movement from sweating, reduced driver awareness/capacity from heat exhaustion and greater steam risk in the event of the fire situation. I earnestly believe that the specs have gone too far at the peril of the rider (and their pocketbook) - as the effects of heat at any of the four major LSR venues can be extreme and justify appropriate ventilation and cloth inserts to improve mobility required to safely manage driving activities on a high speed runs.
I would encourage the rules committee to reconsider their current position in the interest of the riders safety - despite the fact that some of us have bore unnecessary expenses to conform to this poorly conceived standard. Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard.
Regards,
Kevin
AKA - The Tin Man
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"Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard"
What makes you think that the rules committee/riders committee members are not participants?
Unlike other racing organizations our offiicals are also involved at the participant level.
DW
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When Nancy and I got our new leathers a year or two ago -- we ordered them with hot weather and bright sunlight in mind. They're white/silver/light blue -- and way cooler than the dark ones we used to have.
I'm on a M/C committee or two. I have frequently mentioned to racers that - when they are shopping for new leathers - they should consider getting the new suit in light, sun-reflecting colors. Some other things that sure help are two-piece leathers, so the rider can don the pants when five or six vehicles from the start, and only put the jacket on later -- when the run is more imminent. Also - I wear a Kevlar long-sleeve undershirt. It's got a coarse weave that's great for wicking moisture towards the breeze -- I stay quite a bit cooler when wearing it, both without the jacket on and even when I'm fully suited-up. I wear spandex bicycle-rider's pants under the leathers. While there are some that might giggle when I walk around in the spandex (Damn, I know this line is going to show up quoted by one of you smart-butts!), I can move around freely in the leathers and stay much more comfortable than I would be if my sweat-soaked legs were directly in contact with the lining of the leathers.
Nancy and I (and my crew) make sure that whomever of us is soon to make a run stays well-hydrated -- we carry a 2 1/2 gallon jug of sport drink-on-ice and darn near force the rider-to-be to drink of it. I learned the need to have someone "force" me to drink at a riding school one time -- the track steward, about to send me out for a few laps at Road America -- reminded me how hot it was, and asked if I had had enough to drink. I said yes -- but about two laps later was upside down in the gravel from having gone too hot into a corner because I was woozy. I now have others INSIST that I drink something while waiting in line.
My leathers meet both SCTA and ECTA requirements for perforations, armor, etc. I can move around freely and don't feel restricted by "bulk" or "too much armor" -- for sure I'm less restricted that I would be by a body cast and lots of bandages and skin grafts. As for steam burns -- well, I do what I can to minimise the risks, such as donning the jacket at the last minute so I don't sweat inside the leathers so much. You do what you can. . .
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The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.
"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."
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"Also I would encourage the rules committee to spend a few hours in the baking sun in a full set of Bonnie spec leathers, boots and helmet - while considering this much needed rule revision - as I am confident this exercise will motivate reconsidering the current standard"
What makes you think that the rules committee/riders committee members are not participants?
Unlike other racing organizations our offiicals are also involved at the participant level.
DW
DW,
I guess I assumed that the rules committee had folks that are not riders based upon what I believe was questionable judgment (IMHO). Coming from drag racing where we are baked mercilessly by the car folks as they frequently break and cause delays while we bake on the asphalt having been called forward long before needed - In my experience at many tracks there is a common lack of accommodation for motorcycle riders at these events that ultimately increase the risk of the motorcycle community. Whether or not the rules committee has riders I still believe that this group has erred at the expense of the riders - and have needlessly increased the risk and cost of participating in these events - which I am sure was not their intent. As a follow-up question do you agree or disagree with my perspective on the issue - as it is a real issue of safety and concern.
No disrespect intended...... Kevin
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With so much of the leather rules being geared towards preventing injury from fire/hot oil is spandex an issue. When I was calling around to get a suit made I spoke with Donna at Bates leather. She pretty much said she was the one responsible for writing the rules in their current form. Salesman chatter, I don't know. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll conform to whatever the rules are, and am certainly willing to defer to more knoweldgable LSR people. Still the are going to be unusually uncomfortable leathers and the rules have made them just about impossible to buy of the rack.
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When Nancy and I got our new leathers a year or two ago -- we ordered them with hot weather and bright sunlight in mind. They're white/silver/light blue -- and way cooler than the dark ones we used to have.
I'm on a M/C committee or two. I have frequently mentioned to racers that - when they are shopping for new leathers - they should consider getting the new suit in light, sun-reflecting colors. Some other things that sure help are two-piece leathers, so the rider can don the pants when five or six vehicles from the start, and only put the jacket on later -- when the run is more imminent. Also - I wear a Kevlar long-sleeve undershirt. It's got a coarse weave that's great for wicking moisture towards the breeze -- I stay quite a bit cooler when wearing it, both without the jacket on and even when I'm fully suited-up. I wear spandex bicycle-rider's pants under the leathers. While there are some that might giggle when I walk around in the spandex (Damn, I know this line is going to show up quoted by one of you smart-butts!), I can move around freely in the leathers and stay much more comfortable than I would be if my sweat-soaked legs were directly in contact with the lining of the leathers.
Nancy and I (and my crew) make sure that whomever of us is soon to make a run stays well-hydrated -- we carry a 2 1/2 gallon jug of sport drink-on-ice and darn near force the rider-to-be to drink of it. I learned the need to have someone "force" me to drink at a riding school one time -- the track steward, about to send me out for a few laps at Road America -- reminded me how hot it was, and asked if I had had enough to drink. I said yes -- but about two laps later was upside down in the gravel from having gone too hot into a corner because I was woozy. I now have others INSIST that I drink something while waiting in line.
My leathers meet both SCTA and ECTA requirements for perforations, armor, etc. I can move around freely and don't feel restricted by "bulk" or "too much armor" -- for sure I'm less restricted that I would be by a body cast and lots of bandages and skin grafts. As for steam burns -- well, I do what I can to minimise the risks, such as donning the jacket at the last minute so I don't sweat inside the leathers so much. You do what you can. . .
Jon,
I followed some of the same strategies - with color - white top with red shoulders and stripe on the back of the jackets - assuming if I went down in the salt that I wanted something visible. I went with black pant since this I thought I could shelter my legs. Years of staging on the asphalt eliminate a one piece from consideration. I do not handle heat near as well as cold.
My third licensing pass at Maxton I could feel my head thumping from the heat and face burning prior to my third an final pass - I knew I was pushing it and quit for the day after this with concerns for safety. Also I was fighting new, stiff leathers that I only had three or four outing with - as it took eight weeks for production of the custom leathers.....
I think that I need to look at some of the under leather apparels to help with some of the other problems. I still believe that the committee really needs to reconsider their rules in the interest of safety.
Finally - after the event I did a surface temp check on my leathers in Florida, on a bright 95 degree day. White was 100, Red 130 and black 150 degrees....... proving the obvious, color is an important decision.
Kevin
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With so much of the leather rules being geared towards preventing injury from fire/hot oil is spandex an issue. When I was calling around to get a suit made I spoke with Donna at Bates leather. She pretty much said she was the one responsible for writing the rules in their current form. Salesman chatter, I don't know. Just thought I'd mention it. I'll conform to whatever the rules are, and am certainly willing to defer to more knoweldgable LSR people. Still the are going to be unusually uncomfortable leathers and the rules have made them just about impossible to buy of the rack.
:roll: :roll: :oops: :oops: :cry:
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The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.
"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."
So - would the rules committee reconsider this issue........ earlier comments stated that they are participants that are sincerely interested in safety - do others agree with the current rules - as it literally is the participants skin in the game...... Kevin
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just about impossible to buy of the rack.
And this is precisely why we get our leathers from Z Custom Leathers. They fit us correctly, they have just the items we do want and none that we don't wnt, and they cost (about) the same as off the rack suits.
To the poster mentioining that Spandex would be an issue in a fire -- you know, I'd never thought about it that way, but sure will now. Perhaps I can find something suitable and not so likely to melt. The Kevlar shirt is made by the company that makes Draggin' Jeans -- but they won't (I've asked, repeatedly) make long underpants, even if there might be a market. They'd be just fine for the application, though. Thanks for bringing up the point.
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The ill advised leather ruling that has received so much attention
originates from the least experience you will ever see.
The chair for example has never had a fire nor even an entry and the
incident that prompted the change was never even researched to
include input from the expert rider / victim or anybody else with suitable and valid experience.
Review of the comments here and elsewhere might go a long way towards better rider protection.
The last time the MC chair spoke here on another rule, demonstrated a complete lack of basic
understanding of a rule that was misapplied , then he lied about it's origin and was quickly caught.
"You can fool some of the people some of the time but experience quickly tires of a fool."
So - would the rules committee reconsider this issue........ earlier comments stated that they are participants that are sincerely interested in safety - do others agree with the current rules - as it literally is the participants skin in the game...... Kevin
Welcome to M/C LSR Kevin! Try it with 4% Body Fat :shock: ! I Don't know How John N. and Jason McV. do it " They don't STOP ALL DAY LONG :? " I Got SICK Everyday and I have an AIR-CONDITIONED RIG to Cool off after Runs! I Truly think extra Body weight/Fat HELPS at Bonneville :evil: ! I Had to CUSTOMIZE my Rossi Leather's and they were Kevlar inseams :roll: !That's a whole other story,but if it was So Easy Everyone would do it and as Craig Breedlove said on the Speed Channel Show the other night"Showing up is 90-% by then"when /if you ever do" your already committed :wink: !!!
AA Here I COME 8)
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There are a lot of leather makers I would have consulted before Bates. Although the name has been around for a long time , the new owner hasn't. I've found her to err on the side of expense. Usually mine. I've had dirt track leathers made by NJK, in SoCal, and been very happy with them. But, no matter who makes them, they are hot and uncomfortable. Try wearing a steel shoe all day too. I do believe this whole rule needs to be re-thought, as inserts can be made of nomex , and would eliminate any problems with fire but still allow for a little ventilation. Just a thought.
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Welcome to M/C LSR Kevin! Try it with 4% Body Fat :shock: ! I Don't know How John N. and Jason McV. do it " They don't STOP ALL DAY LONG :? " I Got SICK Everyday and I have an AIR-CONDITIONED RIG to Cool off after Runs! I Truly think extra Body weight/Fat HELPS at Bonneville :evil: ! I Had to CUSTOMIZE my Rossi Leather's and they were Kevlar inseams :roll: !That's a whole other story,but if it was So Easy Everyone would do it and as Craig Breedlove said on the Speed Channel Show the other night"Showing up is 90-% by then"when /if you ever do" your already committed :wink: !!!
AA Here I COME 8)
Thanks for the welcome Kaz. I hope that all has been well with you. It has been awhile since last we spoke. I have been working on a Zx 14 for LSR since returning from down under..... only took me three years of planning to finally get to my first pass.... but all is well and I will hopefully make it to Bonneville next year.... maybe we will finaly get to meet face to face.
Kevin
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Welcome to M/C LSR Kevin! Try it with 4% Body Fat :shock: ! I Don't know How John N. and Jason McV. do it " They don't STOP ALL DAY LONG :? " I Got SICK Everyday and I have an AIR-CONDITIONED RIG to Cool off after Runs! I Truly think extra Body weight/Fat HELPS at Bonneville :evil: ! I Had to CUSTOMIZE my Rossi Leather's and they were Kevlar inseams :roll: !That's a whole other story,but if it was So Easy Everyone would do it and as Craig Breedlove said on the Speed Channel Show the other night"Showing up is 90-% by then"when /if you ever do" your already committed :wink: !!!
AA Here I COME 8)
Thanks for the welcome Kaz. I hope that all has been well with you. It has been awhile since last we spoke. I have been working on a Zx 14 for LSR since returning from down under..... only took me three years of planning to finally get to my first pass.... but all is well and I will hopefully make it to Bonneville next year.... maybe we will finaly get to meet face to face.
Kevin
Kevin,
it's good to hear from ya! Welcome to the Board and the Place where all the Real Fast men and women of MOTOR SPORTS HANG OUT! :wink: See ya at the Salt 8)