Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Skip Pipes on June 16, 2016, 10:40:50 PM
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In relation to 1982/1992 F-Body Camaro/Firebird to build for Gas Coupe and Alt.
What's in common use for front & rear suspensions? Are there any must-have suspension strategies/components for this vehicle? Direct me to any helpful pics?
For me, I'm enamored with Jack Rogers #757 Camaro... Can anyone revel the type of rear suspension it's equipped with? Also, does it have a QC/12 Bolt/9 Inch Ford rear axle?
Skip Pipes
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Steve Strupp, Jack's driver/builder/whipping boy, is active on FaceBook. I don't have an email addy for him, but have a FB person help you if you don't fiddle with that site.
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If the 757 is here at Wilmington this weekend, I'll get pics and post.
Gregg
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Skip, you need to be a little careful here. The rule book allows for full tube chassis in Altered but not so in Gas Coupe. I would build to GC specs.
The 12 bolt rear has less hp loss than the other 2 mentioned. Some folks here would recommend a 10 bolt even. This depends on how fast you want to go & how much power you're going to use to get there IMO.
The Kugel/LeFevers Firebird ran a 12 bolt.
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SSS - thanks for the FB nod.
Greg- appreciate any pics
Mike - thank you so much for the pics, they tell a big story. I agree on the rear axle, still run a 10 bolt in the roadster, seems to handle what I've thrown at it.
Skip Pipes
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Skip,
Here are some pics I got of the 757 Camaro this morning just after they unloaded it:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t5zhn_irrzh4SKYUOJiUxaD5Btx7t3U8zh4mZYBYOkYB6vk6YJuVMAzDP4GFIOyGWLi7uTDT_ZuPEg=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gjT3kHvHH5oLWvR2izneEg3PxPiwVtq8mTJJB5kj_r1syXf8iS508bLV1B6WSJYMOmNyF9IwX7jamw=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/l6HPzShXEDdqIqaP7k2aZZnpcEVAWivU98Kwc9b43V0DK5kzOVHL0gBXlxtgLHz21tjL8x8g-sQNhQ=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sZ8fLUx5RHYshCwYw1iRfU7vkJihyYroJIKCvX1hxiV_utV_InY5xOqK9bAP8lTcaYnjCRtaFmZzMw=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Cu5S9shDoFPVyuIIaRPLNqIqCv__1llyu62cGjHpWHKZ30V2nKj5YhatX_xFLj39VAt9K5ClS2ep9w=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dMDwLw59OhUYaQozhkDF8Xqq1ikYOLK4_AgHB5_5-os0rmMUM4rRuwr5uXOsCTvHIwBsJzY_fqsSFg=w920-h690-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/S4VXv3dQgNyJ4YoQpU0KIaJWXwt6PUsmqrLUITa7bB1dIE2GvDLPiajjNJT5750JKmIQKN0JcToxvg=w920-h690-no)
As you can see in the last pic, it does have a QC.
Hope this helps,
Gregg
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Yabut -- is it solid or suspended?
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Hi Greg,
Thank you for the pics. They were at Elmo last weekend. Pretty good haul to get to you.
Skip Pipes
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You might contact Dave Sarno, I seem to remember that he built the 757 originally, got in the 2 Club back in 2000 in it.
http://schracingheads.net
When I talked to him at SpeedWeek in 2008 I think he was running half a SBC!
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The 757 car is the old Doll-Fox-Christopherson Camaro. I don't remember if the car's provenance includes Dave Sarno, although he did campaign the 348 car in B/GC.
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I wanted to get more pics and get info on the suspension but they left yesterday.
They came, they ran (IIRC) 202+, they left.....Plain and simple! :-D
Gregg
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Here are some pics from our '91 camaro that Amy has had up to 180.57 in the Ohio mile, She says it rides/drives like a dream. UMI adjustable torque arm and cross member, Trailing arms. Drop spindles and adjustable struts up front. It currently sits with about 1.75" clearance to the oil pan.
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Some more..
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Last years at Ohio.
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Hi Frank,
Thanks for the pics. Are you using an up-rated rear spring/shock? On the front struts, QA1 adjustable? On the spindles are they 1LE's or aftermarket? Back in the 80's I had one of the first Pontiac 1LE's.
Skip Pipes
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Rear spring are lowering sport springs From Jegs that I cut a couple of coils off. Also wacked the front springs to get it low. Spindles are after market can't remember the maker but they require a wilwood brake set up. Struts are QA1 to help with compression at speed. Had to add about 150 Lb of ballast. she was getting rear end light over 160 mph. Hope this helps. My Alignment guy managed to get 8 deg of caster in the front, 0 deg camber and 1/8" toe in per side.
Frank
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The 757 Camaro front suspension is stock. Move caster adjustment to max. Viking shocks for the struts, just because I like them.
Lower the rear trailing arm mount on the rear axle to keep the arms level. Stock torque link modified to Correct pinion angle.
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Hi Frank - thank you the the pics and info. Reread your build, very enjoyable and insightful. Love your car.
Hi Steve - thanks for the 757 suspension info. I suspected dropping the lower control arms would become necessary. Also, really like your side/rear window treatment.
Skip Pipes
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Thanks Skip, hope it helped. The car is very stable according to the wife who drives it. Good luck.
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I run a Camaro at ECTA events. D\GC went 180 at last meet. Front is all stock with 2 coils cut off. 12 deg of caster. Rear end is a hailbrand qc. stock lower arms and triangulated 4 link uppers. sitting on a set of 155# coils from a old strut front end set up.
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Great pictures of the Kugel Lefevers car and LOTS to see in there. Love the packaging of the steering and the tons of caster.
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Keep in mind cutting coils increases spring rate. Usually to the tune of about 50#'s per coil. So a 200# spring with two coils cut off is much closer to a 300.
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Frank;
"...1/8" toe in per side."
This makes the total toe-in 1/4". This sounds like a lot- unless you have lots of compliance it would be preferable to go to zero toe-in.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Hi Neil, Been awhile, hope you are well. There is compliance in the stock parts. As I don't drive the car I can only rely on what Amy tells me and that is that it " takes nothing to keep it straight and ride like on the highway". In car video confirms that she holds it straight that's all. Me and my front end guy did a little experiment with the car on the rack. We hung about 220 lbs. (my fat azz) from the front end and watched the readout. Toe went almost to zero. Who'd thunk it....
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Hi Neil, Been awhile, hope you are well. There is compliance in the stock parts. As I don't drive the car I can only rely on what Amy tells me and that is that it " takes nothing to keep it straight and ride like on the highway". In car video confirms that she holds it straight that's all. Me and my front end guy did a little experiment with the car on the rack. We hung about 220 lbs. (my fat azz) from the front end and watched the readout. Toe went almost to zero. Who'd thunk it....
That sounds like bump steer rather than compliance. I'd be correcting the linkage rather than compensating for incorrect linkage geometry.
If your front end guy isn't a racer he may not know about bump steer because it isn't a concern with production cars. Why, I don't understand.
Pete
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Related, but slightly different.
Several years back, I remember seeing an article in HRM, Car Craft, or something like that, of a 3rd Gen Camaro like we are discussing which was set up and held some records at Bonneville. If memory serves me, the car was medium blue in color, and was set up with a straight front axle. The records it held were with older-design engines like "Stovebolt" 6 cylinders and such.
I remember thinking that it was odd to see a Camaro like that set up with a straight front axle.
Are there any good reasons to run a straight axle in a Camaro, and does anyone else remember or know of the car?
Steve.
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Nevermind - found it. It's the Harris & Wester Camaro.
http://www.superchevy.com/features/sucp-0705-1988-chevrolet-camaro/
The article indicates it is set up with a 4" drop axle.
Steve.
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It also has a solid mounted 9inch.
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Actually Steve, I don't see any good reason to run the factory Camaro suspension on the salt if rules permit a change, none of it has desirable geometry.
I bet that thing ran like it was on rails.
Sid.
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I was secretly thinking the same thing (no bump steer, no funny geometry changes), just a simple, straight axle.
Re: Solid mounted rear axle / suspension = I don't have my rulebook handy, but my mind thought that compliant suspension was a requirement in Gas Coupe type classes.
Steve.
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Since we don't run on salt we "currently" got no bumps. I believe I found our set up on here somewhere. It works for the wife as she would, without hesitation, inform me of ANY issues. Straight axle sounds intriguing. I happen to have one laying about. mmmmmm :-D
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Since we don't run on salt we "currently" got no bumps. I believe I found our set up on here somewhere. It works for the wife as she would, without hesitation, inform me of ANY issues. Straight axle sounds intriguing. I happen to have one laying about. mmmmmm :-D
I thought the straight axle is for the Spitfire! :-D
Gregg
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Gregg, Choices, choices
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Hi Neil, Been awhile, hope you are well. There is compliance in the stock parts. As I don't drive the car I can only rely on what Amy tells me and that is that it " takes nothing to keep it straight and ride like on the highway". In car video confirms that she holds it straight that's all. Me and my front end guy did a little experiment with the car on the rack. We hung about 220 lbs. (my fat azz) from the front end and watched the readout. Toe went almost to zero. Who'd thunk it....
Thanks- it has been a while. Joline and I were in Normandy visiting the D-Day (in French "Jour J") beaches.
It does, indeed sound like bump steer. Although you aren't going around corners (unless you start to spin :-) ) the aerodynamic loading on the front suspension will change your toe-in depending on speed- not good.
You may have downforce or lift on the front; I'm not familiar with Camaro characteristics. In any case, until the bump steer corrects the toe-in back to zero, you are scrubbing off speed.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
PS: Since it is getting close to 11 November, I thought I'd attach a picture of the American cemetery near Omaha Beach.
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Experience with lowered Firebird and stock steering--initial trials were “scary” per experienced alcohol funny car driver and others. Geometrical analysis of the front end indicated bump toe-out and this was confirmed by in-shop testing. Re-locating some of the components was able to minimize bump steer and result in good steering behavior.
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Thanks for posting Neil.
Ron
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Here's a car with what a few would say are no-no's. No front air dam. No big rear spoiler/wing. Solid axle front end. Solid mounted 9". Absolutely stock Monza Spyder body.
The problem is that since 1992 it's held the Bonneville and El Mirage C/CFALT records at 243 and 213. Makes you wonder if there is a good set of parameters to use.