Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: kustombrad on May 28, 2016, 12:41:59 PM
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Since I'm asking questions, this is one that I've always wondered. Why does the SCTA consider Nitrous Oxide a "fuel?" It's NOT flammable, it won't burn on its own (light a match and it'll just blow out the flame) but yet it's categorized with nitromethane and alcohol. Being it's only oxygen with a little nitrogen in it to calm it down, it's been referred to as "Blower in a bottle" for years because of it's premise is to stuff more "air" into the cylinder. Again, I'm just curious...
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Brad, you almost answered your own question.... anything in your cylinder but air and certified gas puts you in fuel. If you ever used N20 you would know immediately why it puts you in fuel class. It allows you to burn as much fuel as you dare, thereby allowing you to make as much power as you dare.
Figure on making 10 HP for every PPM of N20 you add, provided you give it .2 PPM of fuel to go with it...
if you don't figure on it burning 200 grams of aluminum per minute until the motor stops running
:cheers:
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Neither Nitrogen nor Oxygen burn on their own (don't add gas) so technically they're not fuel, only air. Stuffing the cylinders with a turbo or blower does the exact same thing (adding air with nothing that actually burns) and you'll melt the EXACT same amount of aluminum. Nitrous, Superchargers and Turbochargers only work when you ADD fuel...
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I think we all know that gas is a fuel. So maybe we should run gas burning cars in fuel class. But no. Fuel class is for engines that burn other than legal gas. Gas with Ox added is not legal. So this is the kind of thing you should just accept. Plenty of other things to worry about.
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break the seal on your gas tank--- and you are in fuel :-)
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Well for one thing they define gasoline to contain no nitrogen bearing compounds.
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I guess I should've rephrased what I was trying to say of why I was questioning the idea of something that doesn't burn on its own in the fuel category. I was wondering why it wasn't thrown in the category of the "blown" classes when it's doing the same thing. With sealed gas tanks full of "spec" gas and a nitrous bottle, why wouldn't it be classified in "Blown Gas?" If anyone has ever watched a Pro Mod or Drag radial tires drag race, they've watched a never ending Iine of nitrous and blown cars (on either gas or alcohol) dicing it out. The blown cars will always dominate, but the nitrous guys are always trying to hang. As far as running "gas" in the fuel classes, that obviously happens all the time when the record is "bumped" up 2 or 3mph between gas and fuel. Heck, just throwing in alcohol is good for a 15% HP jump if you have a little compression and that's worth more than 2 or 3mph.
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in the beginning there were gas and fuel classes. Fuel being a chemical horsepower enhancer. Then in time came N20. So what is the SCTA to do about that? It acts like Nitro. Class it with Nitro. Never mind that gas is a fuel and N20 isn't. Just go fast and be happy.
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GO FAST---- be happy :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I was wondering why it wasn't thrown in the category of the "blown" classes when it's doing the same thing.
Actually, it's not.
In a blown class, you've artificially increased the fuel charge pressure of the air/fuel mixture relative to the vacuum created in the cylinder on the intake stroke, thus creating more power through a larger volume of air/fuel mixture. With nitrous and gasoline combined, as when running nitro or alcohol, you've altered the chemistry of the air/fuel cocktail.
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Just to extend this thread a little, we have all seen the articles in Hot Rod where they pressurize the inlet using standard compressed air bottles. This requires that the air inlet be sealed and that all of the air for combustion be supplied by the bottled air. What if you simply added an external line from a compressed air bottle that sprayed into your air scoop? The actual inlet pressure would still be a result of any velocity generated ram air but I would think that you would probably get a boost because the compressed air would be at a very low temperature (-70+ deg F or more) and this should drop the the temp of the incoming air which will increase air density and power. Does the same thing as a inlet charge cooler except you don't have the pressure drop across it. I pretty much think they would put you in the supercharge class. But it would be interesting and easy to try.
Rex
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Hol shitt! Why can't anyone just run by the rules. The SCTA has more classes than Harvard. Pick one. Read the damned Rule Book. And set out to break it in one class. We keep screwing with these, we'll look like the bikes --"I've got a green seat and some pushrods and a fairing (kinda) but I don't use all the gears and I modified the swing arm and I have saddle bags and the frame was made in 1912, but the motor is a H-D (no, not really, just an updated copy). I'd like to run moonshine and nitrous -- neither are fuels by my definition -- why do you not have a class for me?"
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Thinking about it (something I rarely do before posting) . . .
I bet Stainless can classified this bike-- it's 38.93 cu. in., if that helps (more in one cylinder than the other -- a great torque-building secret).
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Stan, you made it too easy.... 650 APS/PF... unless the motor is as old as the frame... then.... well you throw a V in there...
Or you just run it TO
But we digress... Brad, have you been reading too much Hot Rod, they race NA and power adder... N20 is a power adder.
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Hol shitt! Why can't anyone just run by the rules. The SCTA has more classes than Harvard. Pick one. Read the damned Rule Book. And set out to break it in one class. We keep screwing with these, we'll look like the bikes --"I've got a green seat and some pushrods and a fairing (kinda) but I don't use all the gears and I modified the swing arm and I have saddle bags and the frame was made in 1912, but the motor is a H-D (no, not really, just an updated copy). I'd like to run moonshine and nitrous -- neither are fuels by my definition -- why do you not have a class for me?"
Stan,
LOVED your post, laughing my you know what off!!!
:-D :-D :-D
:cheers:
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Stan Back said: "...(more in one cylinder than the other -- a great torque-building secret)"
Shades of Scott Guthrie's TZ bikes! :-D
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Wow! I didn't realize I'd irk so many people questioning an aspect of one rule. Am I influenced by Hot Rod magazine and the stuff they do? Hardly! Did I ever say it WASN'T a "power adder" as Stainless commented? Of course not, it's a GREAT power adder! I was only questioning why it was classified as a "fuel" being it's only nitrogen/oxygen with NOTHING that actually burns. According to Milwaukee it "alters the chemistry" of the gas. It alters it no more than a blown deal. Normal air is roughly a 4:1 nitrogen/ogygen mix which is simple enough. Nitrous oxide is 2:1 nitrogen/oxygen, that's all. Nitrogen is inert and does nothing so all you're adding is 30% more oxygen than outside air. A normally aspirated engine sucks in 20% oxygen, so if we add one atmosphere of boost (double the roughly 14.6psi ambient pressure that we'll round out to 15lbs of boost) we just doubled the oxygen content (40%) of the engine, correct? Now we add double the original amount of fuel and we're back to our optimal 12:6-13:1AF ratio and have more HP. Did that alter the chemistry of the gas? Of course not. With Nitrous, ALL that's being added is more oxygen, that's it and being that it's very cold it makes the incoming air and fuel charge much more dense and "tricking" the engine into thinking it's under pressure. You add nitrous and then you add more fuel (to compensate for the extra 30% oxygen) again to a 12:6-13:1AF ratio and it's just like the blown motors. I wasn't intending to start a fight on here, but it is a forum so I was just asking a question about why it's considered a "fuel" and not a boost issue...
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How 'bout if I take a flyer and try to describe the reason nitrous puts an engine into fuel class per SCTA?
Because it's their rulebook and they can label nitrous as a fuel or a power adder or call it engine magic, that's why. To keep things simple there are two classes for the various fuels (well, more if you include the outliers), and running nitrous does provide an advantage (assuming done properly :evil:) over the available race gasses we can run.
It's their football so they can write their own rules -- using whatever words they want. As long as we all understand what they mean -- it's good.
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:-D Then that's what we'll call it!
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The major combustion end products are carbon dioxide and water. Gasoline supplies the hydrogen and carbon, in some cases, a little oxygen. The atmosphere provides the all of the oxygen, and in the case of oxygenated fuels, most of the oxygen. The oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon combine into the end products in the presence of an ignition source and this gives us the go-power.
Nitrous oxide has nitrogen and oxygen. The nitrogen is inert. The attached oxygen is not. It combines with the hydrogen and carbon in the gasoline to make horsepower. This requires more gasoline than if no nitrous oxide is used. It is partially true that it does not burn, only the nitrogen part doesn't. The oxygen part does and that is the fun factor that puts it in the same "fuel" class as a number of other oxygen bearing molecules.
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Stan
In my opinion your post has once again added a bit of light hearted humor to another interesting subject as well as put an important point across about the RULE's. The foundation of all land speed racing has always been gas is one class anything else your in the fuel class. Propane anyone? :cheers:
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I think we all know that gas is a fuel. So maybe we should run gas burning cars in fuel class. But no. Fuel class is for engines that burn other than legal gas. Gas with Ox added is not legal. So this is the kind of thing you should just accept. Plenty of other things to worry about.
You can run in a fuel class with gasoline as your "fuel". It won't be scrutinized at impound since we don't check the "fuel" of vehicles running in a fuel class. Just a clarification for you all. :cheers:
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Nitrous itself is NOT considered a fuel. Supplementing your primary fuel with nitrous puts you in the fuel class because the engine's output will be higher than running on gasoline alone. The point of the classes is to pair similar configurations together - first by engine displacement then by induction type and then by fuel. You wouldn't run a blown motor against an unblown motor in the same class just like you wouldn't run a fuel motor against a gas motor. Fuel meant nitro or at least methanol for a long time but when nitrous came around, it was placed at the same output level as other "fuels" thus, when you run nitrous, you're in the fuel class.
You were just asking to be facetious right?
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I consider Brad one of my good mates and understand his question but Brad you have to give it to Stan!!!. He's a legend.
Stan, I know this thread is old but I really laughed. :-D :cheers:
Brad, the guy said it like it is, call him grumpy but he hit it on the head.
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How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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Hol shitt! I'd like to run moonshine and nitrous -- neither are fuels by my definition -- why do you not have a class for me?"
That's what I ran Stan, but I still ran in the "F" class. Maybe I was just afraid to ask :-D
BTW, One sniff of my fuel, and you want to listen to country music and chase wild women. :cheers:
Rouse
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I'd like to run moonshine and nitrous -- neither are fuels by my definition -- why do you not have a class for me?"
Hey wait a darn minute ... I resemble that remark! :-D
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Nah, Johhnie, I don't think I want to snort your fuel. I prefer the stuff I use -- makes me enjoy classical music and Nancy comes chasin' to me. It doesn't get better. . . :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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SSS,
I guess age has its privileges :-D
Rouse