Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Sumner on April 26, 2016, 08:55:30 PM
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Overall I've felt that the past salt laydown efforts started in the late 1990's have had a positive effect. Before the laydown was started the course really started to go to hell in the mid 1990's but then seemed to improve as the laydown project was implemented. Now it seems to of reversed that trend again.
I'm wondering if one reason for this is the use of the alluvial fan wells that are used to supply the water to move the salt in the laydown effort.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/salt%20laydown-1.jpg)
The diagram above shows the position of those wells just to the west of the BSF. There is a description of the whole laydown here...
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.91807.File.dat/White_GSL_2002.pdf (http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.91807.File.dat/White_GSL_2002.pdf)
If you read the 2012 paper located here and go to page 23 where the paper discusses the "Alluvial Fan Aquifer" ....
https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf (https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/salt%20laydown-2.jpg)
....From the above it seems clear that the alluvial fan aquifer is connected to the shallow brine aquifer that is under the salt we race on. Normally, the days before the pumping, the alluvial fan aquifer flowed into the shallow brine aquifer. Now with the pumping that flow has been halted and actually reversed as shown by the high salinity that is now present in the alluvial fan wells as described above.
If the shallow brine aquifer is saturated with salt then the salt on the race surface can't migrate into it and will stay there, as it has for eons. If the shallow brine aquifer is allowed to flow into the ditches going to Intrepid or is drawn towards and into the alluvial fan wells and pumped to Intrepid salt will then migrate from the race surface down into the shallow brine aquifer and on to Intrepid in one of the two ways just mentioned.
With that in mind I believe that further pumping of the alluvial fan wells will just add to the removal of salt from the race surface. The report above also validates that, noting that the water from the wells will become saline to the point that the water won't be able to take much salt into solution from the ponds south of the interstate.
The solution as I see it would be obtaining the water for the laydown from another source, possibly alluvial fan wells further to the west or another location to the south of Intrepid if there is water there.
One last comment and it is on reclamation. My reading of the contracts between Intrepid and the BLM does not mention reclaiming the salt flats by returning the salt from south of the highway but only requires them to fill in ditches and plug the alluvial fan wells as mentioned above and remove other evidence of mining. No requirement to move the salt south of the interstate to back north of the interstate.
Take the time and read the two documents mentioned above and here are some other interesting documents that Intrepid puts out. Go to the sections on their Wendover operations...
http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9maWxpbmcueG1sP2lwYWdlPTgwNzU2OTYmRFNFUT0xJlNFUT0zNiZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9QQUdFJmV4cD0mc3Vic2lkPTU3 (http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9maWxpbmcueG1sP2lwYWdlPTgwNzU2OTYmRFNFUT0xJlNFUT0zNiZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9QQUdFJmV4cD0mc3Vic2lkPTU3)
http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9maWxpbmcueG1sP2lwYWdlPTkzODg1MDUmRFNFUT0xJlNFUT0zNyZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9QQUdFJmV4cD0mc3Vic2lkPTU3 (http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9maWxpbmcueG1sP2lwYWdlPTkzODg1MDUmRFNFUT0xJlNFUT0zNyZTUURFU0M9U0VDVElPTl9QQUdFJmV4cD0mc3Vic2lkPTU3)
They are pulling product from the ditches that drain the shallow aquifer water. As they do that salt in solution (the salt goes underwater most all winters) carries the race surface salt down into the aquifer and disappears from the surface. The laydown in the past has helped to replace that salt as the papers show but if even more salt is pulled off by the wells in the alluvial fan then we might be back to a net loss,
Sumner
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Also of interest in the reports is that the salt laydown is beneficial to Intrepid financially in that they don't have to develop new evaporation ponds.
Page 13 here... https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf (https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf) ..
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/salt%20laydown-3.jpg)
.... and page 6 here.... https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf (https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/salt%20laydown-4.jpg)
Sumner
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Thanx Sum, the plot thickens... :-P Bob
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Wow! You guys have way to much time, you should come out here more often and see whats really going on.
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Wow! You guys have way to much time, you should come out here more often and see whats really going on.
Been going for 25 years and have seen what is going on. What part of the above reports from the BLM are you in disagreement on?
Sumner
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Wow! You guys have way to much time, you should come out here more often and see whats really going on.
So what is going on? Come out more often? We can't even get on the salt once a year.
Hey mike you ever test the amount of salt in the brine solution to see if were being B,Sh..ted.
After all these years of pumping where's the salt? You seem to know it all where is it?
JL222
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I read thru Crawford's posts. One of the patterns is obvious. Take a personal shot then try to belittle racers because they do not live in Wendover.
I think it's excellent that Sumner is trying to reconcile the BLM's words with his experience looking at the salt.
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Wow! You guys have way to much time, you should come out here more often and see whats really going on.
OK Mike, since you are going out there so much, why don't you let us know when it's dry enough to inspect & we will take a trip & see what's really going on.
Sid.
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Thank you Sum for your research . No wonder the racing surface is disappearing . It's going west to Reilly's wells and south to Reilly's plant . Hope Sum's research doesn't get lost in squabbles between right thinking friend of LSR .
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If you go back to that panel discussion video that was posted earlier, you'll see some very interesting "body language" going on.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil
Where is the video you were referring to?
Ron
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Try this.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15382.150.html
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Neil
Where is the video you were referring to?
Ron
Ron;
It is this one: https://youtu.be/diWS_qYD458
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks Sid,
I saw that last week and didn't have time to read it before I had to go to work, then forgot about it. This memory thing and getting old ain't what it's cracked up to be.
After seeing pictures of the salt last year part of me says racing ain't going to happen and the other part of me says BS, so I just bought a Jerico to help the cause if we get to run. :-D
Ron
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Thanks to you too, Neil.
Ron
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We all know the salt is NOT on the salt flats any longer. One thing that might be away to move larger amounts back to the track area would be to do it, as is done at the salt removal areas just outside of SLC. They move the salt around on conveyor systems into large piles. If a conveyor was fit in place of one or more of the ditches that run under I80, salt could be moved from the ponds back to the salt flats in large amounts. Once there, it would still need to be spread out but that could be done many ways. This gets the mine to be able to use ponds that they can no longer use now, back in service, and get the salt back onto the correct side of I80.
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If you go back to that panel discussion video that was posted earlier, you'll see some very interesting "body language" going on.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I especially find it interesting the that term "maintain" was used rather than "repair" in regards to the race course, seemingly insinuating that no repairs were necessary. It seems that "maintain" is what's been done methodically for the last 60 years. Body language was very clear, and the folks in that video are obviously well beyond not seeing eye to eye. The airport analogy is spot on.
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hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.
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hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.
Wife says don't print it :-o
JL222
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conveyor systems can move a lot of salt but they do need quite a bit of maintenance (probably a good deal more than a pump and pipe system as they get older)
You have to replace the rollers under the belt periodically and the belt itself, not to mention the drive motors.
More importantly unlike the piping system they would have to go over the highway.
Right now there are two pre-existing over pass stuctures over I-80 the over pass at the MP4 turn out near the salt flats cafe / truck stop and farther west the pedestrian cross over near the weigh station.
Obviously the MP 4 location is closer to the salt but even then it is about 7 miles from lands end.
Then even if you did build a conveyor cross over near the dike area (which would be much more direct) you would have to in addition to the constant maintenance overhead of keeping the conveyer system, belts, rollers and motors healthy you would also need to provide enough additional structure to keep stuff from falling off the conveyor onto the highway. A large piece of salt falling off the overhead belt system impacting a windshield would be a very bad thing, and things do get onto conveyor and end up falling off.
One of my first jobs was at a gravel plant, and they had a couple miles of conveyor systems we maintained. Occasionally I had to run down the conveyors and watch for trash and pick it up before it went through the crusher again. This was usually loader teeth from the loads of rock fed into the conveyor but we occasionally had other stuff find its way on to the moving conveyor.
I agree if you had the capital to build such a system it would move a lot of salt, and in combination of a pumping system that moved near saturation brine and dropped that salt from the conveyor into final concentrating pond which could be periodically drained by gravity onto the flats you could put saturated or even supersaturated brine/slush onto the flats where normal weather processes could distribute and level it.
It would be fairly expensive but would move much more material in a shorter period of time than any other conceivable system I can think of at lower Per-ton costs.
If Intrepid needs to empty those full concentration ponds for their own uses it might be cost effective for them to pitch in on such a system for their own reasons, not to mention the public good will and brownie points they would get for the restoration project.
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While none of it is going to be cheap, since they already have plenty of experience down the road with moving a lot of the salt on a conveyor system, why not take advantage of it. They would surely be able to tell BLM what to do and the most effect way of doing it. Going under I80 in one of the old ditches was to remove the chance of falling debris, but it may not be possible. In my mind, the more salt getting moved back to the salt flats, sooner, the better chance it has to survive. While it maybe years before it gets better, anything we can do to help it along, is better than doing nothing. The fact that it also helps the mine get some of there ponds back into service sooner, also help the mine out. That in and of itself gives the mine a reason to work it out.
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hmmm for the most part I try to keep an open mind to some of the solutions that outside parties put out there, but when its just doesnt make sense, well then I usually say something, and yes I live here and do alot on the salt, not just for the racers, but for all interested parties. Oh yea the video, well to start with the reason I'm sitting the way I am in it is the fact that Im 6'8" and the table was low, but hey read what ever you want in to it. The bottom line is that I do care about the salt flats because its my home, and I do care about the racers because alot of them are my friends, but I'm not a Bonneville racer, nor do I plan on being one, so the way I see it you need me alot more than I need some of you guys!!! Just saying, think about that.
I guess my issue is that I have only seen you post against ideas and not provide any details. Opinions are great and you are entitled to yours as is everyone else here on the site (in the world as far as I am concerned). What I see however are statements like these that simply shoot down someone's efforts to share data and knowledge that was collected with no real anecdotal or academic support for your point of view.
...but when its just doesnt make sense...
Why doesn't it make sense? What is missing from the details provided or where is the error in the data provided that is incorrect or assumptive?
Someone here has a great tag line on their posts, it reads: "Without data you are just another man with an opinion." That is probably one of the most profound statements not only in the technical aspects of LR but really in general life.
In a political position such as yours, the perception of others is key to your success. It is true of all people really, if you want people to like you and support you, you have to treat them with a certain level of dignity and grant them some validation for their efforts. At a minimum you can engage them on a similar level and discuss openly why you think their idea is flawed. Most people become passionate about their beliefs but most people will also concede the point when proof is offered.
People argue for fun and profit, there are clubs dedicated to debating, it is human nature. Discourse is not something to shy away from, it is where all great ideas sprout from. The way in which people generate discourse however can lead to fist fights and mudslinging. This usually happens when the level and type opposing opinion doesn't match the mode in which the original idea is proffered.
We are all wanting the same thing here which is the restoration of the BSF. Your view is (and should be) based on economic as well as local knowledge and pride. My view is based on the desire to run at high speed on a long, flat and smooth raceway. Although our reasons are different our goals are the same.
It is ok to disagree with someone's opinion, life is full of that and our nation is founded on that ideal. We must however be careful of how we disagree so as to not cause unnecessary angst which will certainly lead to a degradation of civility and promotion of hostilities.
Here is the test:
If anyone disagrees with what I have stated here, by all means feel free to disagree and offer your own insights.
p.s. this is really not directed specifically at this post or poster, I simply have seen this happen elsewhere and it is a very prolific occurrence in modern society. There are people behind the posts. People with feelings and ideas. People of varying amounts of hide. Some people can make a post and not care what is said while others may never post again because they feel nobody honors their opinion. Civility needs to be understood lest it be lost in the annels of the internet. This is just a friendly reminder for me and for others that there are ways to approach discourse that generally will not lead to hostility.
</End Rant>
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Brandon, you nailed it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:
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Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:
Is that next to Chastity and Intercourse, PA?
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I'm disinclined to beat up on Mike - he's been a friend of all racers who have needed help through his CARQUEST parts shop, has hosted teams needing workspace - he even let me drop-ship my bicycle 5 years ago at his shop.
And as the Mayor of Wendover, he is well within his right - dare I say, duty - to defend his home town.
Mike, that said, you've also been privy to many of the workings of the political, environmental and public concerns regarding Bonneville.
As I'm sure you find some of our comments, analysis and thoughts frustrating from your point of view, I find myself frustrated from time to time with what I believe is an active key player in the resolution, striking out at those of us who are desperately trying to come to grips with the natural, engineered and political dynamics of what many of us perceive as a tragedy.
You've been a dynamite host and a great ambassador for Wendover, but I sense there's something about these discussions that's eating at you.
I think it's fair to say that we're all trying to sing from the same hymnal, but we're on different songs.
Is there a way forward with Bonneville that you see that we're missing? How can we help?
Chris Conrad
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My sense is that as the elected leader of the community in closest proximity to the BSF and the mining enterprise, he might feel miffed that he was not invited to be a member of the Utah Alliance, or other such groups. He might feel that he's been over looked. Certainly, the voice of the local community will be taken into consideration by the BLM and Intrepid - along with the voice of the racing community. That said, I also believe he could be responding to posters' thoughts and comments in a more positive and constructive manner. My 2 cents....
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Not being an engineer, hydrologist, geologist, scientist or any other number of very smart people, the main problem to me is every one is saying "not me". The mining company (of which there were several) says we didn't do it. The BLM says we didn't do it or allow it to happen. Some scientists and other people say nothing has changed, the salt is still there.
I don't know whether it was pumped from deep brine wells, from shallow brine wells, from the alluvial fans, flowed through ditches when the flats are flooded or not, ran out of the mountains in winter or by Divine intervention.
I do know there are several hundred million tons of salt South of the highway, not counting what has been sold and hauled out over the past 60 or so years that according to everyone's statements, no one seems to know where it came from. If they admitted where it came from we would all know they are responsible for the loss of the BSF, a National Treasure. The deniability is deafening.
Without measuring, from the map, it looks to me that Intrepid's ponds cover more area than the entire racing surface and they are complaining the salts too thick in some of their ponds to be able to use them. If the salt in piles and in their ponds was on the flats there would be no problem.
All the bureaucrats are doing a comprehensive study. Comprehensive means "NOTHING gets DONE". And they wonder why "WE the PEOPLE" want to throw them out and reload with someone that may.
end of rant
Ron
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Appropriately enough- he lives in a municipality named "Harmony". :cheers:
Is that next to Chastity and Intercourse, PA?
Intercourse, Blue Balls and Chastity are over near Philthadelphia, we are on the west side of the state about 40 north of Pittsburgh and 40 miles east of the Ohio line.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk
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I do conveyors for a living. The expense would be enormous. The electric power requirement, distance involved, tonnage required and exposure to weather/salt environment make conveyors not feasible.
Joe
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We - the Utah Alliance and Save the Salt - members have spent considerable time studying the salt lay-down program effectiveness and failings.
Without getting too scientific, the short answer is that in recent years the overall tonnage of salt brine flowed back onto the northern side of Interstate 80 (aka the International Speedway), has simply been less since intrepid bought the operation from Reilly Industries. How much less? Most years less than half, other a bit less than half but NEVER as much as Reilly pumped back over the winter months.
Combine that with back-to-back wet summers and you have little or no salt crust regeneration.
Without question, brine reflow is the best, most cost effective method to restore the International Speedway. Not only is it a cohesive process, but it has now been integrated into the potash mining production processes and it behooves the operation to put the salt waste product back from whence it came. Dry salt lay down is a short-term, adhesive process that is best suited to hole patching and temporary stop-gap remedies of low spots collecting water. Tenuous at best, useless if vying for solid surface fidelity.
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Now that makes sense.
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Now that makes sense.
x2, no pissin in the wind, just facts, :-)
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Velocity,
Have you and your learned cohort considered allowing the brine to evaporate in-situ?
It is, after all, the process used by Reilly and Intrepid to form a cohesive surface.
Sam
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Looks like this but on a bigger scale! :-o
Or use the ones that currently exist? :?
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http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp412073c
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Don't believe that current sea salt evap process and BSF salt brine cut off from the ocean for more than 14,000 years and who knows how many climatological shifts plays the same way anymore. A brief look tells me the chemical characteristics are rather different.
On the surface a lot of this stuff looks good, but 11 months of study have shown me detailed analysis of BSF is very special ecosystem.
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....Without question, brine reflow is the best, most cost effective method to restore the International Speedway....
I totally support 'brine reflow' as the best viable option to restore the salt. The reason for this thread is I was wondering if the use of the Alluvial Fan wells as a source of water was beginning to have a negative impact on how it was working. Maybe another source of water is needed, see my initial posts on the first page of this thread where BLM reports are quoted.
Sumner
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I'm surprised that Sumner's discovery hasn't gotten more attention . To pumping a gallon of to the racing surface the mining company first withdraws a gallon of brine from it . The pumping is doing nothing but wasting electricity .
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Sumner
I read your original post with interest and while I understand most of what you postulate, I am not geologically qualified to comment authoritatively on its usefulness in the salt problem.
However, I did ask Dr. Brenda Bowen for her thoughts.
Stand by.
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Looks like this but on a bigger scale! :-o
Or use the ones that currently exist? :?
Woody put a couple of holes in the bottom and add water to the top :wink:
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Maj, it started as a max saline solution full to the top. Inside the house it evaporated very slowly out in the sun it was back to salt in a few hours. With a lined pond you get all the salt back. If the bottom is soil aka a sponge you end up with a thin(ner) crust. Wayward dust particles aside, me thinks the salt flat chemistry operates somewhere in between these extremes. The salt ponds on the other side of the tracks is closer to my example, that's why it is still there. Let's just race there until the mutually derived plan is completed! Is "mutually derived plan" an oxymoron? :?
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Combine that with back-to-back wet summers and you have little or no salt crust regeneration.
Without question, brine reflow is the best, most cost effective method to restore the International Speedway. Not only is it a cohesive process, but it has now been integrated into the potash mining production processes and it behooves the operation to put the salt waste product back from whence it came. Dry salt lay down is a short-term, adhesive process that is best suited to hole patching and temporary stop-gap remedies of low spots collecting water. Tenuous at best, useless if vying for solid surface fidelity.
The above is just why it needs some MORE help. While moving the salt back isn't going to be cheap the mining has taken it for the past 60 or so years, moved it to the south side and has not returned it, those are cold hard facts. Since mother nature is going to do what it is going to do, the only thing that can help it, is going to cost. So it all boils down to who is going to pay for getting the salt back to the northside where it came from and what is going to be done, in the future, to keep it there. All the studies in the world are not going to change it and brine reflow hasn't been getting the job done by itself. If it had, the salt would be showing it, and we ALL know that is not the case.
The mine is only going to do what there are forced to do, its in there best interest to spend no more than they have too. So they are going to say brine reflow is it, only because they are already doing it now and we all know that's not good enough. So if they were to double the reflow rate now, it's still not going to be a drop in the bucket. They have allowed it to get to far behind, and it's not going to be able to catch up on it's own. If all the salt was removed from there ponds and moved back along with the reflow it will take a couple of years to see the impact of it on the salt flats. Then, they can make another study after that and try to figure it out what to do next. For along time now all they have been doing is kicking the can down the road for someone else to take over. That has to stop now if there is going to be any chance of saving BSF as we have known it.
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I wonder about the actual cost of the annual pumping of the brine back to the flats - electricity, maintenance of the equipment, man hours - how much?
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Sumner
Dr. Bowen was intrigued but your population and is reviewing the supplied points.
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Woody i was insinuating that to get the lake bed to resemble your model the leak needs to be stopped
no amount of adding brine to the surface esp in the scale thats even possible will do any thing untill the closed system evaporation pan the existed for thousands of years is reinstated
Most of us have read the reports of the % salt in the groundwater pumping increasing since it began, that was the beginning of the end of the salt pan
we need water table rising bringing salt to the surface on a large scale
Its a lesson learnt the hard way by irrigation farmers world wide , many salt pans have been created before adequate drainage
was put in to reverse the problem
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Maj, we are on the same page. When you actually have 5 feet of salt and put more brine on top I think you get a better reaction, too. I was just getting my trial study done for the BLM before I formally submit my request for
everyone's tax dollars, sorry I meant federal funds. :-P
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Woody i was insinuating that to get the lake bed to resemble your model the leak needs to be stopped
no amount of adding brine to the surface esp in the scale thats even possible will do any thing untill the closed system evaporation pan the existed for thousands of years is reinstated
Most of us have read the reports of the % salt in the groundwater pumping increasing since it began, that was the beginning of the end of the salt pan
we need water table rising bringing salt to the surface on a large scale
Its a lesson learnt the hard way by irrigation farmers world wide , many salt pans have been created before adequate drainage
was put in to reverse the problem
Maj, we are on the same page. When you actually have 5 feet of salt and put more brine on top I think you get a better reaction, too. I was just getting my trial study done for the BLM before I formally submit my request for everyone's tax dollars, sorry I meant federal funds. :-P
Although I hesitate to continue in the role of "Captain Obvious", perhaps some progress can be made to restore the BSF by applying Ockham's Razor to the problem.
1/ As Maj suggests: Plug the holes in "the evaporation pan"
2/ As Woody suggests: Add salinity, and continue to add salinity
3/ As Sumner suggests: Use water that permits high concentrations of "saline solution"
4/ As I have suggested: Stop extraction, immediately.
NONE of the above suggestions would induce any harm to the BSF or its' restoration. And they are all simple and make sense.
That is why they will not happen any time soon.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
If you do not agree with this "simplistic logic" consider this:
Explain to me, in layman's terms, how it is possible to "restore", when "extraction" continues.
And further explain how this might be possible when the "waste, by product" is not returned to the original environment.
And since we live in a quantifiable universe, you are not allowed to use non-quantifiable terms, like: "endless supply"
The amount or lifespan of anything and everything is "quantifiable", in understandable terms, in this day and age. This is exactly what has happened to the BSF.
+1
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X2\
Ron
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X3+ :-D
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OH OH, here we go in OZ :x
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/lithium-exploration-eyre-peninsula/7368214
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"Intrepid" Mines Ltd
Spring Hill
Queensland
Australia
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Maj, we are on the same page. When you actually have 5 feet of salt and put more brine on top I think you get a better reaction, too. I was just getting my trial study done for the BLM before I formally submit my request for everyone's tax dollars, sorry I meant federal funds. :-P
I believe this to be very true and the only way your going to even come close to that is to move the salt back to the north side of I80 and spread it around. While I'm sure it's not going to cure the salt flats by itself you need a base, to help stop the brine pumped now from dropping through the soil into the water table. It's taken years to destroy BSF and its going to take years of hard work to give it a chance to survive.
There is no doubt the mine has removed huge amounts of the salt and they should be responsible for moving it back.
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....There is no doubt the mine has removed huge amounts of the salt and they should be responsible for moving it back...
True on the 'they removed it' but they are under no obligation to put it back. The lease/mining agreements they have with the BLM only requires them to fill ditches and plug wells when the lease is up or they are finished mining. I wish it was different but as far as I can tell it isn't.
Hopefully now we can get them to cooperate but down the road it might require some kind of 'super fund' type money to actually move large quantities back where it came from,
Sumner
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So they have no obligation to clean the land that they have piled the salt on?
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The land they've piled the salt on as you put it, belongs to them.
Sid.
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I was under the impression that the entire mine operation was on BLM land. Typically, they are required to return the land to how it was prior to them starting operations, but if they own the land they could just do nothing with it.
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This doesn't exactly answer the question of what Intrepid is required to do in the way of reclamation, but it's still interesting. According to their 2014 Annual Report / Form 10-K, they estimate that their Wendover "resource" has a 30 year remaining life. Here's what their Annual Report has to say about their "Reclamation Obligations".
"Mining and processing of potash generates residual materials that must be managed both during the operation of the facility and upon facility reclamation and closure. Potash tailings, consisting primarily of salt and fine sediments, are stored in surface disposal sites. Some of these tailing materials may also include other contaminants, such as lead, that were introduced as reagents during historic processing methods that may require additional management and could cause additional disposal and reclamation requirements to be imposed. During the life of the tailings management areas, we have incurred and will continue to incur significant costs to manage potash residual materials in accordance with environmental laws and regulations and with permit requirements. Additional legal and permit requirements will take effect when these facilities are closed."
"Our surface permits require us to reclaim property disturbed by operations at our facilities. Our operations in Utah and New Mexico have specific obligations related to reclamation of the land after mining and processing operations are concluded. The discounted present value of our estimated reclamation costs for our mines as of December 31, 2014, is approximately $22.0 million, which is reflected in our financial statements. .... The undiscounted amount of our estimated reclamation costs for our mines as of December 31, 2014, is approximately $57.6 million."
They don't talk about having to relocate their "tailings", but they do acknowledge there could be other issues to deal with, like the presence of lead. And they know it's going to cost a bundle. Last time I looked their Balance Sheet had plenty there to cover these future costs - but lots can happen in 30 years.
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... Here's what their Annual Report has to say about their "Reclamation Obligations".
"Our surface permits require us to reclaim property disturbed by operations at our facilities. Our operations in Utah and New Mexico have specific obligations related to reclamation of the land after mining and processing operations are concluded.....
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/salt%20laydown-5.jpg)
Note there is no mention of returning salt from where it came from :cry:. The above came from the following in 2012 .....
https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf (https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Intrepid_Potash_Final_EA_FONSI_DR.pdf)
Sumner
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I was under the impression that the entire mine operation was on BLM land. Typically, they are required to return the land to how it was prior to them starting operations, but if they own the land they could just do nothing with it.
Here's a map of who claims what.
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/pdfs.Par.16381.File.dat/BSF%20Area%20Map.pdf
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Nice catch22. When they are done mining, they are bankrupt, so no reclamation efforts will ensue. How many companies hang around to clean up their mess after they "end mining?" If we want to save the salt, its not going to happen by waiting around. Intrepid has to have a solid reason to spend money on something that won't earn a profit. What do they hold valuable as a corporation besides money?
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The fact that they reduced the amount of salt returned via pumping over their predecessors doesn't bode well. Obviously there should be some sort of encouragement applied to plug the drain back and to build up the salt in a serious manner.
Pete
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IF MINING OPERATIONS CEASE
THERE IS A RECLAMATION BOND ON ALL LEASES THAT AFFECT THE INTERNATIONAL SPEEDWAY THAT WILL ACTIVATE TO ACHIEVE COMPLIANCE
HOWEVER, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THE MINING OPERATION CONTINUES - ALBEIT ONLY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF INTERSTATE 80 IN ORDER TO HAVE A PARTNER THAT CAN FLOW SALT BRINE BACK TO THE NORTH SIDE.
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IF MINING OPERATIONS CEASE
THERE IS A RECLAMATION BOND ON ALL LEASES THAT AFFECT THE INTERNATIONAL SPEEDWAY THAT WILL ACTIVATE TO ACHIEVE COMPLIANCE
HOWEVER, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THE MINING OPERATION CONTINUES - ALBEIT ONLY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF INTERSTATE 80 IN ORDER TO HAVE A PARTNER THAT CAN FLOW SALT BRINE BACK TO THE NORTH SIDE.
THE PROBLEM IS COMPLIANCE TO WHAT? DOES IT STATE ANYWHERE TO BE RETURN TO ORIGINAL CONDITION? CURRENTLY IT APPEARS THAT FLOWING THE LIMITED SALT BRINE BACK IS DOING NOTHING OTHER THAN MOVING THE LITTLE AMOUNT OF SALT LEFT DOWN INTO THE MUD! TIME TO STOP, PLUG THE HOLE, AND GIVE IT A CHANCE TO RECOVER.