Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: DRW on March 26, 2016, 02:53:26 AM
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I saw a Drone go up from a boat a Lake Havasu and take video of two Radio Control Boats, First thing I thought as I watched it, As Im taking off to make a run on my bike, My pitman could go straight up from the start area and video, It would look great , Without any or much of a chance of coming down in the wrong area , And after my run, Just come straight back down ....No following down the track, Just straight up and back down .
Good idea?
Or does it open the door to Drones flying all around like nats, In the pits, At the riders meetings, Down the return road ?
Thoughts ?
DW
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As long as they fly a tight formation!. :-D
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DW:
I thought about a drone too.
What if there is a designated photographer that did drone shots according to SCTA-BNI rules? Then for a fee send his/her clients the footage. That would get us the shots we want and make for a controlled environment like the authorized still shot photographers. Ray the Rat took photos of my car for a very reasonable fee and got shots I or my crew never would have gotten... plus they were center frame, in focus and an interesting angle that only a master photographer can do.
Just a thought... some enterprising photographer may be able to make a buck.
BR
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I have flown RC model airplanes for over 50 years and there is a reason why they are not allowed to fly over people or populated areas..it's called safety. You have no idea how quickly that drone could be in an area you don't want it in if you lose control of it. I for one do not them anywhere around me at a racing event
Bill
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Did anyone else see the footage of the downhill skier that was just missed by the drone crash...
All we is a rule to make cars and bikes safer when impacting drones... :dhorse:
:cheers:
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nothing on or above would be my vote ---at speed would be the equivalent of getting hit by an artillery round.
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At BMST a few years ago they had drones at the starting line taking great videos. They did not bother anyone and were not a hazard at all. The benefit of getting great videos and photos far outweighs any potential hazard of falling on someone. But they should not be allowed over the course in front of a moving race vehicle.
Don
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There was a drone at the Speedweek drivers meeting when most that attended made the cover of Hot Rod.
I assume the photo was taken from the drone. 2011?
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Don, that's a pretty ludicrous statement You made. The fact that a drone didn't fall and hit anyone or thing doesn't mean sh*t. The potential is there and who is going to be able to police the use and whether or not a drone is "out of bounds."
The benefits of a great videos and photo's WILL NEVER OUTWEIGH THE POTENTIAL HAZARD OF FALLING ON SOMEONE OR ANYTHING!
Bob Drury
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yes. The benefit of the "Great Video" may well be lost on the person the drone falls on.
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and by the drone after the person it fell on fell on it :-D
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Thats pretty much what I thought every one would say.
My true feeling goes with the votes of, If, Just If it happened, It would have to be like getting hit in the helmet with a rock at
100, 200 300 even 400 mph.... Maybe someday down the road when its a more tried and true normal thing.
But until that, Safety out weighs a good photo any day !
How bout sending Scooter Grubb up in a helicopter ?
DW
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I have flown RC model airplanes for over 50 years and there is a reason why they are not allowed to fly over people or populated areas..it's called safety. You have no idea how quickly that drone could be in an area you don't want it in if you lose control of it. I for one do not them anywhere around me at a racing event
Bill
Listen to the voice of experience. I too have flown RC planes and helicopters for longer than I care to admit. While the technology has definitely improved over the last few years it's far from perfect and flying around a group of people is not a great idea.
Pete
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I Agree
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Already been done. At Speedweek 2012 the BBC had a film crew there to shoot a feature on Bonneville and they were using a drone camera.
These guys were of course highly experienced, (not sure if they got any special approval) and they were covered by a corporate insurance policy.
That said you have a couple issues, recent changes in drone rules and regs (ie registration of large drones), the fact that we also often have secondary air traffic over the salt, including low flying helicopters. That would require a maximum altitude limit, and some sort of air boss or coordination between any helo ops and any drone operations.
One way to do it relatively safely would be to require any drones to be tethered to a maximum altitude of 20 - 50' and perhaps located in a photographer credentialed area not over the general access areas. Since we are close to the approach patterns for Wendover field that also probably places FAA limitations on such use.
As a photographer I don't necessarily support an all out ban. We already have significant limitations which make it difficult to properly
document the event as it is, but there are certainly hazards to be considered with drones and they are not likely to go away any time soon.
Smart regulations would be needed to keep things safe.
It would also be yet another over head for supervision on an already over worked volunteer group. Just who would be the go to person to manage this issue?
Perhaps set up a 50'x50' box near the starting line with a tether anchor and make that the only authorized area to use an RC controlled drone camera near the starting line?
You definitely do not want a rogue drone to go zipping out over the course at 3 ft altitude as it tries to return home after losing contact with the controller.
Approach with caution but I think could be done safely with proper controls.
I would definitely not want random drones zipping around the pits and spectator areas controlled by who knows who.
I have seen RC aircraft out there (not to mention ultra lights) so there is already that existing risk environment and the SCCA / USFRA would need to consider how they want to handle such a request before hand.
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Dang,,, I was just going to write that on my reply, Seem a Very Light Weight Tether would work great, And to go
farther on that Tether Idea, If it had and kind of spring loading, It would snap back to the ground in its starting place soon as it reached a distance set as "Far Enough Away"
Again, Just Ideas,, But Nothing Is More True Than "Safety First"
But anyone that hasnt seen how nice it looks watching from a drone has to see it..
I hope someone a bit more savy than I will post one for all to look at..
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Has also been done at Wilmington.
Picture attached is from April 2013.
I only saw this drone flying behind the starting line in the staging area.
Gregg
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Is that red oval around the drone some kind of safety requirement? Like a buffer in case it bonks someone on the head? :roll: Or is is just a pigment of the imagination of the photographer? I like the concept -- makes it easy to spot. :cheers:
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Jon, how about a red circle drawn on the picture to make it easy to find the drone.
Bill
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Drones have come a long way over the last couple of years. We have one for Area 52 this year.
We intend to put it twenty feet over the track and drive under it at high speed but not top speed. Yes, anything could happen but I have a lot of confidence in the new GPS based nav system on the latest generation of drones. You just put them in the sky and they stay there. Once positioned, you can set the controller down and get a bite to eat or whatever while it is still recording.
All that being said, it's only us that will be hurt if the thing would go astray at area 52. I like area 52, we make our own rules. We are such REBELS! LOL.
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"Area 52"?? Please explain.
Is that a secret location?
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"Area 52"?? Please explain.
Is that a secret location?
Never! You would have to be a member of the secret society and go through the blood imitation and all. LOL.
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One more thing. If I happen to have my car in Impound or in line for a back up run (or any other for that matter) and something falls from the sky and cracks my windshield, the owner of that device better have a chartered jet warming up at Wendover International Airport because if I find the Son of a B*tch first, I guarantee He will need new dentures at the very least...................... Bob
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Is that red oval around the drone some kind of safety requirement? Like a buffer in case it bonks someone on the head? :roll: Or is is just a pigment of the imagination of the photographer? I like the concept -- makes it easy to spot. :cheers:
Jon, Ya got it all wrong. It's not pigment of the imagination.....It's the filament of my magnation!!!!!
Maybe this one is better. :-o 8-) :-D :cheers:
Happy Easter,
Gregg
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That's inglorious!!! :-D :-D :-D
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Now there is an idea... maybe the drones should have a big yellow caution banner to tow around so they can easily be seen. :evil:
:dhorse: :cheers:
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Grantham, I declare that word a foul. You are fined with a loss of two points and a head of hair. Magnation COULD be considered a bastard child of the root "magnate" -- but I think it's a stretch too far and therefore must disallow it.
Sorry, Glendanna. Wanna try again?
Happy Easter. April Fools Day is less than a week away. I thought you all might like the reminder so you can get your shopping done early.
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A member of our team is a professional photographer and asked if he could bring a drone to 2016. After talking to a few different people, I believe the general answer was no, at least not anywhere near the race course. this is 2nd hand information and I may have it wrong, but filming cars on the course was enormously discouraged via drone. They'd allow him on the side of the course at any place he chooses, but not with a drone.
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I'm more interested getting a couple of aerial shots of our pit while crew is working on car maybe from fifteen feet off the ground. As long as we keep in the designated airspace above our pit, would that be permitted?
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Several years ago Gordon Hoyt was on a run in his Modified roadster and a chopper was doing a photoshoot and got a little close to the roadster and it spun. Hoyt said the prop wash caused the spin.
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How about a 15 or 20 foot selfie stick. Way cheaper to build and easier to learn! :-D :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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LOL
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A monopod fully extended and a short step ladder are a lot cheaper than a drone.
I use that setup of occasion with a full size camera and it works out well after a bit of experimentation to get everything figured out.
This is what I use.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FAYL1YU/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_b25tS_g421_i3
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Grantham, I declare that word a foul. You are fined with a loss of two points and a head of hair. Magnation COULD be considered a bastard child of the root "magnate" -- but I think it's a stretch too far and therefore must disallow it.
Sorry, Glendanna. Wanna try again?
Happy Easter. April Fools Day is less than a week away. I thought you all might like the reminder so you can get your shopping done early.
Jon, Jon, Jon.....Magnation is a word and refers to magnetic water treatment (do a Google) so it IS allowed!
I got my 2 points back but hey, where's my head of hair? :-D :-D :-D
C'Ya,
Ole What's His Name
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I recently got to take a well deserved vacation. Once every eight years is about all I get except for my racing. The amount of drone activity as well as the amount of people with their selfie sticks drove me insane. Go through all the expense and trouble of traveling just to listen to a drone or have a damn drone or someone elses selfie stick in my face the whole time.
I am all for having great photos and video to remember things with, but when did this stuff become more important than actually being part of an event and actually being in the moment? People spend more time trying to take a picture and show it to others than just enjoying the experience they are actually at.
The drone over the drivers meeting a couple of years ago was loud enough that I couldn't hear what was being said at times and very distracting. I though it was incredibly rude to all attending regardless of permission or intent. The photographers have gotten to where they think we are there simply for them to take pictures of.
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Eddie I agree. :cheers:
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Eddie, I also agree !
Thats exactly what I brought this up for, I would love to see my run from a Drone.
But, I would Hate To hear a Drone buzzing at the Riders meeting...
I would like to thank all that threw in there two cents,From the funny as hell ., And Usual .
To the Dead on Fact, Getting hit with a Drone at speed is like an Artillery Round .
Bottom lines Here , Drones just arent trust worthy enough yet, Or Quiet or Safe enough !
And, One more thing, You Gentlemen make for some Darn Good Reading !! (Hope That Gentleman thing didnt insult anyone)
Cant wait for Summer, Hope were all back on the salt....
DRW
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Some folks who come to Bonneville are not competent enough to operate a vehicle.
Flying or otherwise.
Intended or not.
I favor the knuckle sandwich regulation for offenders.
That said, I video shot by a drone at WoS 14. The drone was operated reponsibly and with due diligence.
Sam
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There are sure a lot of scared y cats afraid that a drone will fall on them. How come you are not terrified that a bird will fall on your head, smack your windshield or helmet? We all live by the laws of chance and there are a hell of a lot more birds up there falling to the earth than drones.
I was serious when I said the benefit of getting a good video outweigh the chance that a drone will fall on you. Just keep the drone outside the fall area.
Hasn't anyone seen a recent movie? Most movies now have 100's of hours of drone footage. How many news reports of drone injuries have there been? That's right you haven't heard of any.
Don
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unfortunatly we live in a "Cotton Wool Society" :roll:,,
there are drones wandering around the pits that pose more of a threat to those in the air :-D
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Don; I trust the drones. It's the people flying them I worry about.
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Don, let Me put this to You in a different way.
Most of Us Racers are on a limited budget. In My case the last trip to Bonneville cost over $3,000 Bucks for travel, entry fee, rooms and feeding My Crew. That doesn't include one dime spent on the Race Car including Fuel.
My front tires cost $600 apiece and the rears over $800 apiece. They are special order items which even their dealers don't always have in stock.
My windshield is only $350 but is not normally "in stock" at "local" glass shops.
What this means is that if I run over debris of any sort while towing to inspection, to staging, during the run or back to the Pit's or someone's bored Kid decides My windshield would look better with a BB gun hole in it... I will most likely be done for the Year. I don't have many more chances to Race due to age, health and the increasing costs. I think that the majority of LSR entrants are in a similar situation.
If drones, kites, radio controlled airplanes, balloons, etc. are allowed, who is going to police who is flying them and where they are used. The safety patrol is not capable of always seeing a drone controlled by a "non-participant" flying out over the Race Course or right of ways and possibly crashing between runs.
It is very hard to find debris on the salt and We cannot afford to add to the possible safety concerns for the gratification of others.
As to the "fraidy cat" outlook, imagine how much our insurance carrier will like the possibility of Spectators or Racers being under any potential man powered device with even the "remotest" possibility of injury. Bob Drury
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Drones have become the new anti-lock breaking systems. People don't understand them in their new capabilities. These things have advanced in a couple of generations to highly sophisticated marvels of modern electronics. Gyro-stabilized, GPS enabled and navigated, video integrated...every modern buzzword you can think of. These aren't the remote controlled helicopters or airplanes we played with years ago.
The FAA has jurisdiction over where you can and can't fly them, that is part of the license you sign for. As far as approach to Wendover and commercial traffic, it isn't going to be a problem. Their airspace is way higher than what you will be flying a drone at Bonneville. Approaching aircraft go from around 2000 AGL to runway altitude at 3 degrees of approach. You'd have to be right off the end of the runway to have any chance of getting one of them.
As for noise, most of the pro models you are going to see are large models with very quiet electric motors on them. Once they get about 50' off the ground you can't even hear them. I would not want to have 50 of them buzzing around, but a couple would not be noticed unless they were flying them low.
There was one flying at the test and tune a couple years ago all around the pits and starting line. You only heard it taking off or landing. After that you had to look to find it. If the wind stopped and no cars were running in the pits or down the track you could find it but otherwise it was not noticeable.
As far as crashing into people, you have just as much chance of getting run over by a car in the pits as you would a drone falling from the sky. These things are built tough, but they are super light. If they weren't you could only fly them for a few minutes. Some of these drones have 30-60 minute flight times on a single charge. Building them out of 120 D.O.M. would kill their flight time. I wouldn't want one falling on my head but I also believe the likelihood of that is slim.
For the models that would be equipped with cameras that would be low-grade commercial units you are talking $1,000 and up (seen them for $20k) These things aren't just going to fall out of the sky, they are programmed not to. Any that are smaller than the $1k are going to be 1/10th the impact of a foul-ball at a stadium or 1/100th of a bat let loose into the stands.
We drive cars and motorcycles to speeds that make some people nervous just saying the numbers. Are we really going to be scared of a .75 pounds object that moves at less than 12 MPH? Seriously, unless the sky is teeming with them or someone is trying to use the track as a landing pad I don't see a big issue...
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It will always be a balancing act, but I sometime find it interesting that some folks see photographers as a nuisance and fail to see that they (at least the serious ones)
are the historians of your sport and your individual efforts.
Without photography all you have to show for your efforts, are some memories and a couple physical mementos like a brass plaque or a hat. If you are lucky a brief mention in some book.
Years later you or some of your relatives or friends love to see our pictures but seldom have the time to help us get good ones when you're in the heat of the battle.
We understand that in the heat of the moment your singular goal is the next run, but please respect our desire and willingness to invest significant time money and effort to record your pursuit of your goal.
Those of us who try to record and document Bonneville, have the same expenses and frustrations as the racers.
We spend money to drive out to events which get canceled just like you do.
We spend thousands of dollars on camera gear, just like you do for engine parts and tires.
One camera or lens can cost as much as your entire bill for your last trip to Bonneville.
Like you we spend hours in the hot sun for a brief moment of perfection, and to be ready to capture it as it happens.
You blow up engines or cut tires, we break lenses or cameras.
For both us it is a cost of doing business. We both know up front that those risks exist but we are willing to take those risks to accomplish our goal.
Your goal is to go fast and reach a record, my goal (and the other photographers) is to get a good picture of you doing that.
None of the photographers make any significant money doing this. Like the racers it is a labor of love.
You can spend years getting to your goal and same with the serious photographers who document your struggle.
We are your history! We make it possible for you to look back and show others what you accomplished.
That is why one of the most popular threads on this forum "Old Bonneville Pictures" has nearly 1/2 a million views (463660).
That is why we have racers and relatives of racers hopefully asking if someone has a picture of car #xyz during the event some years ago.
Many times the photographers gladly provide those pictures if they have them for essentially no cost considering what they cost to acquire.
This needs to be a win win relationship and if we respect each others needs we both come out ahead.
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Well said Hotrod.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Hotrod :cheers:
Its funny that people here have irrational fears of a drone wrecking their run or their car, but they they're not afraid of driving over 200 mph.
With all due respect, any photographer that is willing to get permission to use a drone and is willing to follow whatever guidelines/rules/limitations are put in front of them, they are welcome to do so. Whether that needs to be written in the rule book, drawn up by special committee, whatever, its going to become more popular and should likely be discussed BEFORE some asshole with a $200 remote control toy helicopter becomes a nuisance. The member of our team is a true professional photographer and videographer and isn't going to cause any issues. In fact, I'll bet he helps get Bonneville more attention, in a good way.
Save the Salt.
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Larry (hotrod),
thanks for taking care about us photographer....if we are not there, there would be no prove of the history via picture (remember the article from Rocky)....and yes, after the 2014/15 season there was a big hole in my bank account for Nothing....but I was in a good Company with all the other Speed Freaks....so we could share the unlucky situation....cross the fingers for 2016....
I followed this thread now for a while....
yes, the today technic is very high today...used by the pro's....but who else can afford this technic
yes, this pro's knows to handle their pro Equipment......but what's up with the one, someone bought a week before at ebay
so as Larry, I had the chance to chat with this Discovery pilot - he had his equipment under the drone very well protected...as he said, he knows why.....and he told me some real scary situations he run in, with his drone....
a drone has NOTHING to do in an area above the crowd or racers......did I have to explain that a racer....like #911....can easily take down a drone just from his turbulences behind the racer......
BUT what really bothers me, is:
this Pro documentation teams are not taking da...mn care for 2 Cent for other photographer, that they can do their Job, too....like the one who done this Boyd roadster Story, when his wife run the car....using a big camera crane for days so that we had no chance to get any proper picture of the starting line....Larry, like me and Ray the Rat, I'm sure you was over the years also a victim from so Pro's....what I mean....
In the last couple of years I had to throw a lot of pictures away....WHY.....because there was the shadow from a camera crane or a drone on the body of a racer (pushed off at the startingline).......there was NO CHANCE to FIX it with photoshop....I'm not coming all the way just to get this experience......
Making movies or photos with a drone.....they looking nice....but all had to be under safety condition for spectator and racer and under the respect from other who frame the action at this place
otherwise they have NOTHING to do at the salt.......
My two Cents for that
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We have had this discussion before on professional courtesy for other photographers.
The one point I agree with some comments above there are a few photographers (predominantly vidographers) who think their photo is the only important one.
When Charles Nearburg ran his record to take the Summers Brothers Record in 2010 the video crew that was doing a feature on the car, almost blocked out all the still photographers completely. They set the car up in a poor lighting location then futzed around for almost an hour while the light died just before sunset. For that whole hour plus either their boom or one of their team was constantly hovering over the car, never once did they look over their shoulder and see the half dozen still photographers patiently waiting for 30 seconds of clear time to get a shot. They also to my knowledge never even realized that they screwed around so long that they killed the best lighting.
Some of us got lucky and squeezed in a quick grab shot when they accidentally backed away from the car for 3 seconds. I finally got my best shot after all the commercial stuff was done and the sun was just setting behind the western mountains. I got very lucky with a long exposure hand held shot and got a good one with the full moon in the back ground but it was more stupid luck than skill.
Same issue crops up at the starting line for a small group of still photographers who think the only shots of value are extreme wide angle shots taken at arms reach distance from the car at some odd ball angle, and constantly clutter up the near field making it impossible for other photographers and video graphers to make a wide shot that takes in the entire car, crew and spectator lines.
Visualize your shot, check other photographers to make sure you are not about to ruin some one else's shot, step in to frame the shot, take the shot and then please get the H---- out of there so others have a chance to take their shots.
There are often 10 -15 credentialed photographers patiently waiting to get a shot as the car is prepped to run and the driver is strapped in.
They make zoom telephoto lenses for a reason, learn to use one.
(end rant)
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That drone over the drivers meeting was annoying. I don't mind a pro flying one to document runs however.
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Just take a good look at how well protected the very expensive camera is on a professional drone...should tell you just how much in control the pilot really is! If nothing could happen why would the camera be protected? You people can have all the drones you want, please just keep them on the ground and away from me!
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My favorite video clip regarding drones:
http://petapixel.com/2014/10/16/watch-camera-drones-return-home-feature-slam-right-cliff/
https://youtu.be/F74VKHUwn8s
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I suppose I should clarify a few things. Hopefully my comments didn't start this anti photographer storm, it wasn't my intent.
I have no problem with photogs or videographers, as long as they are not interfering with the racing.
Lets review for a minute.
The reason for the event is to go fast.
First priority is doing it safely.
To have an event there are a lot of things that have to happen. If one were to prioritize these things, pictures would be the LAST thing on the list. An event could still happen if there was no one there to take a picture. Again I don't have anything against any media, however it just isn't essential to an event. I can take my own pictures, I have a camera on the car and a crew that I feel comfortable with in my space.
A drone has no business over the course, off course where any impossibly, remote problem would not equal a drone on course is fine. Seems pretty simple to me. I can't see how anyone could justify a drone over the course unless it is specific to one team and they are okay with it. We could just let people drive across the courses whenever they wanted, I mean as long as they don't do it while a car is on course there couldn't possibly ever be a problem right?
If the photogs and videographers are stepping on each others toes it gives me an indication of how many we have out there. Keep in mind there are plenty of spectators whos pictures are just as important to them who are behind all the pros.
I know this sounds as if I am negative towards the media,,,, I am not. Just pointing out the priorities.
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Its funny that people here have irrational fears of a drone wrecking their run or their car, but they they're not afraid of driving over 200 mph.
Respectfully, I don't know that it's an irrational fear.
There are so many drones out there now that are so cheaply built that I question their quality.
I wouldn't have a problem with the event limiting drones to a professional level standard of build - and determining that would be above my pay grade - but when you can buy one on eBay for $60.00, that's getting to the point where the inexperienced operator can be operating a questionable distraction with a potential for failure that I don't think any racer would be comfortable with.
I think it's well within the purview of any responsible sanctioning body to limit drone operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgXd0nIo784
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"Eddie",
don't worry......if you read through this thread you will see that a lot of different aspects and opinions was written....
In facts, it is important, that photographer are there....they frame not only the history....they also create you a memory from the great time you had at the salt....
Talking about photographer, sorry, but there is a different between the photos the teams himself can make or at the level Larry (hotrod), some other and maybe myself can shoot....
especially if you try to catch a racer at 400+ mph.....
the real problem is - and this was discussed before, here on Landracing.....
Some years ago, there was only a handful (pro) photographer around......in the last years there was hundreds who got the wrist band and run around in the starting line area....
the few we had for a long time, knew to do their job....and took care and respect each other....this now photographer, using smartphones, has not the clue what to do, disturbing the starting process and create risk to be hurt...and finally they "destroy" the chance of the pro's to get the right picture when they, as Larry wrote before, run into the view......or in your camera equipment....
if this folks, don't knowing the "law" how to do right...now would start with drones in the same way....this would be more than a disaster......it would effect the safety of all of us extremely....
so in this way, maybe your note was on the right time that the issue "drones" at the salt can be clarified before the season starts....
By the way, there are the photo gallery's from Ray the Rat and myself here on Landracing....there you can see the right stuff (means photography) :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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That drone over the drivers meeting was annoying. I don't mind a pro flying one to document runs however.
yeah, that was bad... really bad. let's fly this really loud and attention grabbing quadcopter around while the event staff is trying to do the driver's meeting. IMO, they're too distracting. should absolutely not be on the starting line where people need to focus on what they're doing. especially spectators that are distracted by shiny moving things. won't be long before someone gets hurt because they're not paying attention. kinda like walking into a phone poll while looking at your cell phone. whoever that was flying during the drivers meeting should have had their press pass revoked and been escorted off the salt.
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Hey -- is this something that the SCTA/BNI oughta be thinking about regulating as part of the press pass procedure? I have no idea if anyone has presented thoughts and concerns like these to the officials, but - -?? :?
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When you get press credentials they do give you a rules sheet that outlines what are acceptable locations to take pictures from etc.
All they would need to do would be to add a line or two that specifies rules for drone use on the salt.
They need not even specify specific rules only make it by permission only so qualified professionals could use them for major features etc.
but the safety team would be able to approve they types of usage that they would allow on a case by case basis.
As I mentioned as popular as they are it is inevitable that you will see them out on the salt. Best to issue guidelines ahead of time.
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It appears that the FAA registration process accomplishes many of the steps which would be needed.
The types of drones of interest (ie heavy enough to carry a camera or gopro type video) would almost all fall under that guide line.
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84386
Note the safety guidelines at the end of the article.
• Fly below 400 feet altitude.
• Keep your unmanned aircraft in sight at all times.
• Never fly near manned aircraft, especially near airports. (this would ground drones if we had a helicopter in the air I would think)
• Never fly over groups of people, stadiums or sporting events. (this takes care of the over people and crowds issue)
• Never fly near emergency response efforts.
Those guidelines would be a very good start for how when and where drones could be operated.
Adding a line about tethered operations to ensure positive control could also be considered in special cases.
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When you get press credentials they do give you a rules sheet that outlines what are acceptable locations to take pictures from etc.
All they would need to do would be to add a line or two that specifies rules for drone use on the salt.
They need not even specify specific rules only make it by permission only so qualified professionals could use them for major features etc.
but the safety team would be able to approve they types of usage that they would allow on a case by case basis.
As I mentioned as popular as they are it is inevitable that you will see them out on the salt. Best to issue guidelines ahead of time.
That would cover the folks that actually get press passes... and maybe the .001% of drone owners that actually know the rules... how do we work the 10% of the Spectators and 5% of participants that are droning around....
Oh wait, I know, group drone control with porta-potties since that guy is Seldom Seen Racing :evil: :cheers:
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Its funny that people here have irrational fears of a drone wrecking their run or their car, but they they're not afraid of driving over 200 mph.
Respectfully, I don't know that it's an irrational fear.
There are so many drones out there now that are so cheaply built that I question their quality.
I understand where you're coming from. If "the powers that be" use even half the savvy they do with racer safety, photographers with drones won't become an issue. They should only be allowed in the hands of professional photographers/videographers with REAL credentials. Then there's no problem, and it won't turn into "cheap junk crashing into stuff" that everyone probably should be afraid of. Maybe even offer a procedure to earn a license to operate drones near the track? I know - one more intelligent volunteer needed. There could be a breif checklist/test to qualify a drone operator and weed out the hacks with Walmart toys.
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The SCTA reportedly has already set some rules -- give me a little time and I'll post them here when I get them.
Stan
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I, too, have operated R/C airplanes, cars, boats, helicopters, etc since 1976. The "so called" new rules regarding drone use (i.e. no flying over people, fly under 400 feet, not within 5 miles of airport without permission, etc) are nothing new, and were in place in 1976, by the hobby organization Acedemy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). It is pretty obvious the FEDS took the AMA's safety rules and used them as a starting point to begin regulations.
For work, I operate literaly many BILLIONS of dollars of water pipelines, pump stations, resevoirs, generating plants, high voltage equipment, etc. Some of it 100 years old, some of it 5 years old or less computer/electrical "wonders" I trust the 100 year old mechanical euipment a lot more. The point here is some posters above comments about the "new, latest and greatest drone equipment" being fool-proof, are meaningless. ALL equipment CAN fail. Particularily Computers/electronics/radio control. The computer techno people are always telling us about the "new, updated" version of anything that has all of the bugs worked out. Baloney.
That being said, I think that reasonable accomidations could be made that can be a benefit for all of us. I, for one, would love some videos of me running my car, would pay for it, but Bonneville being so big, the cars are too far away to stand on the sidelines to video.
How about allowing an easily controlled, fixed number (like perhaps 10 or so) of PROFESSIONAL drone photographers, with proof of liability insurance, registration, etc, with obviously professional level equipment, permitted to film? They could be considered the "official drone video" photographers of the event. I would suggest a license fee of perhaps $200-$500 for the privelage, and to cover costs for perhaps another worker to watch/monitor them. Have a prepared set of rules, guidelines, and specific assigned areas they can operate, or give them the boot. I'm thinking to NOT give them free range to roam all over Bonneville. A tether of some sort may be a solution. Have EACH drone an assigned area ONLY, such as drone 1 at starting line course 1, drone 2 at starting line course 2, etc, drone 5 at return road between courses # 1 and #2, etc. If the pilots won't agree to those terms, we can have some compronise at OUR agreement, or we don't sell the license to be there i.e. no drone at that location. Problem solved.
I think a drone may be possible to be safely operated on areas such as the return roads? Clearly never around or over the area we race on between the course cones, but what about the return road areas between the tracks?
For those who don't want any drones near them in the air when they make their run, they could just tell the starter to request the nearby drones to land while that person makes their run?
Clearly, under NO circumstances should we allow the average person, with their hobby drone, to fly around. Including US drivers. All of the concerns of problems of cheap drones apply. Take a trip to any public flying field and you will see why you don't want to trust the "general" public
The comments above regarding the drone flying above the drivers meeting are spot-on. If flying above people, the drone pilot violated a known safety rule. Simple solution - give them the boot. At this time, just call the FEDS for enforcement.
I don't have all the answers or know all the problems, but I think a workable solution to allow drones, closely monitored and very limited, is possible. More cool photos and videos online of what we do can only stimulate interest and public support for what we do.
I was really really annoyed at 2013 Speedweek by that photo company "Event Photo". I wanted to buy a photo from them, and was relying on getting that photo and did not take any of my own, but missed their office time at Bonneville, and to my surprise, they would not sell me the photo after the event was over!
Jeff #2470, #247
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Hey -- is this something that the SCTA/BNI oughta be thinking about regulating as part of the press pass procedure? I have no idea if anyone has presented thoughts and concerns like these to the officials, but - -?? :?
As if they don't already have enough to do........Here's an idea to simplify the process " No Drones Allowed"
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Hey -- is this something that the SCTA/BNI oughta be thinking about regulating as part of the press pass procedure? I have no idea if anyone has presented thoughts and concerns like these to the officials, but - -?? :?
As if they don't already have enough to do........Here's an idea to simplify the process " No Drones Allowed"
Sure. And no import cars. And nothing that can't run a full cage. And no salt allowed. Safety first, right? :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Pet peeve: instead of learning something new let's ban it.
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I talked to Lee Kennedy, SCTA Technical Director, and got the Proposed Guidelines concerning drones. They're not official yet and says he's welcome to suggestions for changes and/or additions. So if you gotta problem with these, let him know at 818-519-6896 and not just bitch about it here.
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Sure. And no import cars. And nothing that can't run a full cage. And no salt allowed. Safety first, right?
Pet peeve: instead of learning something new let's ban it.
Exactly. Fifty or a hundred years from now when historians are documenting the demise of land speed racing they will be looking for aerial videos and photos and saying to themselves "Didn't they have those things they called drones back then? Now we don't have any aerial views of the last land speed cars and bikes."
Don
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Yes. i have to agree. Landspeed racing never was any good before the drones. Won't be any good now without them.
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The above SCTA drone flying rules are a good start and appear to be in line with what I recall about the new FAA regulations, and consistant with what has been the commonly accepted practice among responsible R/C hobbists for decades.
The next item to discuss is the possibility of a SCTA process to control/allow a select number of photo drones WITHIN the 2 miles of the race course. I believe a very select few PROFESSIONAL level commercial drone photographers could be allowed near the race course for our benefit as well as theirs. See my suggestions in my post a few posts above.
And anything that the SCTA agrees to, must still be within the FAA guidelines, such as no flying over people/cars/tents, etc.
Let the discussions begin...
Jeff
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Looks good to me.
The posted rules already provide for usage within 2 miles of he venue, but only after contacting SCTA officials and getting written permission for that use.
Item #3 in the Don'ts list
and
Item #5 in model aircraft operating limits
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Okay, so let's say we let the drone thing happen.
Who is going to oversee the proposed compliance over 2 long courses and 2 short courses? SCTA-BNI needs to keep their eyes on the cars, bikes and drivers.
Do we really want some spectator with a drone being the "first responder" in the case of an accident?
How will we deal with a belligerent unwilling to park it?
The technology of cheap, consumer grade radio controlled products is insufficiently advanced to bet my life on it, and certainly not in the hands of spectators.
What frequencies are any 2, or 3, or 137 drones operating on? When concentrated into a limited space where these frequencies will tend to carry farther, what guarantees can be provided that intermodulation, phase cancelling and signal dropouts won't effect other drones?
We're talking about the hottest RF toy to come out in years. And they are largely toys, built to the price of a toy, and to no documentable safety standard that any racer should feel comfortable with. There is insufficient experience using multiple, cheap devices in close proximity to guarantee the kind of safety necessary to assure an untarnished event.
And then there's the wild cards of operator idiots, operator error, system failure, motor failure, wind, a camera improperly attached.
It's insanity to think that numerous consumer grade RC products of this nature can be used safely around people trying to do something as dangerous as pushing a motorcycle or a car to its limits.
If used, I think they need to be limited to insured professionals, authorized by the sanctioning body, and with the strictest possible limitations to assure safety.
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"Who is going to oversee the proposed compliance over 2 long courses and 2 short courses? SCTA-BNI needs to keep their eyes on the cars, bikes and drivers."
How about this guy?, Reply #63
"Sure. And no import cars. And nothing that can't run a full cage. And no salt allowed. Safety first, right? Dead Horse Dead Horse Dead Horse
Pet peeve: instead of learning something new let's ban it."
He seems to one of the new generation,
DW
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Did you read the PDF that Stan Back posted back in reply #64 Chris? I think that precludes anyone using a toy drone around the event and anyone who acts in an irresponsible manner can be treated the same as anyone else who acts badly. That's what the police are for. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Did you read the PDF that Stan Back posted back in reply #64 Chris? I think that precludes anyone using a toy drone around the event and anyone who acts in an irresponsible manner can be treated the same as anyone else who acts badly. That's what the police are for. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
PJ - yes, it does. And yet we've seen planes land on the salt, people driving faster than posted speeds on the access paths, people dumping their camper sewage into porta-potties, idiots burying their cars up to the window frames in the mud. Given the popularity of these things, it's unreasonable to think with 15,000 folks at Speedweek spread out over 20 square miles with the hottest new toy in the land, we're not going to see encroachment onto the racing area.
I'm no fan of the "nanny state", but an incident similar to this cannot be allowed to happen -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct5waHK1vas
And I doubt if SCTA-BNI wants to arrive at an accident after a drone has already uploaded a video.
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Sort of a hijack - but not really. Our shop is in a building owned by an ad agency/video shop, and Tony, the owner, and I have talked about his drones and how he uses 'em.
First: Hey, we've got one legal drone operator. He's got whatever permits and licenses and he still has had his units parked for a year or two while the rules get straightened out. I know that about 5 years ago I asked him to fly over and video our parcel of land (we've never seen it from above and it's heavily forested) and he said he couldn't - the rules wouldn't let him use the thing high enough to give much view, and can't be operated out of eyesight -- yup, he's legal.
But I don't think he's typical.
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Sort of a hijack - but not really. Our shop is in a building owned by an ad agency/video shop, and Tony, the owner, and I have talked about his drones and how he uses 'em.
First: Hey, we've got one legal drone operator. He's got whatever permits and licenses and he still has had his units parked for a year or two while the rules get straightened out. I know that about 5 years ago I asked him to fly over and video our parcel of land (we've never seen it from above and it's heavily forested) and he said he couldn't - the rules wouldn't let him use the thing high enough to give much view, and can't be operated out of eyesight -- yup, he's legal.
But I don't think he's typical.
Actually, he is a commercial operator. They tend to do things the legal way or they lose their commercial status and therefore can't make a living.
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The Facts,
the rules, as they are for the last 40 years also count for drones....we here in Europe run similar rules...maybe more restrict than in the US....but this maybe has to do with the much closer areas we have, where people are living.....
as written, the pro's will (maybe) stay inside this rules.....because they make their living with this
the real issues is the thousands of drone freak....today, they are 99+ percent of the drone user.....what's behind them....normally no pro equipment...no proper training...no experience when something starts going wrong.....and finally....and this is the sad experience here in Europe (and a big issue in Germany).....they give a da...mn sh...t on the laws and rules............also they know the rules....they ignore the rules....one of the real dangerous use of drone....in an airport area....nearly every week it comes in the news, that again a drone was flown inside an airfield (airport) area by a unknown user.....
but did it stop after the news.....no....it happens again and again.....sometimes you can get the feeling it becomes a sport to break this laws and rules.....
Worse....after some fatal incidents caused by drones, nobody end up at the court....because all this used drones are not registered in any way....so the user could never be found.....
in Germany from all incidents with drones, 100% of the user of the drones walked away without fine....because, they couldn't be found....
Back to the salt.....how you like to find the user at the salt....zero chance to find them....
when you can't find them.....how you catch them when a incident happens....
or say it in other words....the one who cry's now as the loudest to allowed the drones.....will be the loudest who will cry if he became a victim of a incident with a drone.....
it is great, that there is a big fine written for wrong use of the drone.....but what count it, if you have no chance to find the one who done wrong....
At the salt we are more than busy to keep the meets safe....not only for the racers but also for crew members and spectators.....and it is tough to do this 100 %.....
with all this what the organizers are doing....and they doing a great job on the safety issue....there are still enough example that something went wrong and out of control.....
so, we are interest to reduce the necessary base safety to control the not pro drone user (which is in fact impossible).....
and by the way.....Jon (Wennerberg) wrote about the one he knows (and asked for the use of a drone)....one pro who respect the laws and rules....
he is a rare example....I never had seen a so pro drone user at the salt, since they start to use drones.....they all, without exception, ignored the rules and laws....so well they are known....
just for to get the right kick for their own video/photo production....and therefore they give a sh...t on the rules and laws....
But maybe we need at first a heavy incident that the people understand the risk....but than we are in trouble....there are enough people outside the salt, who just wait for a so situation to kick our Acura......and we deliver the reason for doing this.....
and it will finally hurt the other who done correct and in safe manner.....
Midget, you be absolute right with your comments
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:cheers:
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:cheers:
Well,
if this is the solution for the salt.....it will be very loud above our heads at the salt....and maybe we need a new rule for crew member and spectators....they have to wear helmets...
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I talked with Tony (upstairs) a bit more. He's got a big-azz "toy" helicopter - that he bought a handful of years ago for the video biz. It's got a 2-stroke engine and rotors about 3' long/6' diameter.
And he says that until the rules are firmed - he won't use the thing other than as a toy, but he's not interested much in that -- 'cause of the funky rules. He's got a few others -- "newish" with multi rotors, tiny battery 'copter, and so on -- and none of 'em get use.
Yeah, he might be one in a bunch - but imagine the noise from a 6' helicopter with a chain saw engine zinging along over our heads at the meeting. I think SCTA might invite NRA* for the day. . . :evil:
*Pork Pie: NRA is the National Rifle Ass'n, the big gun lobby in the US.
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Well,
if this is the solution for the salt.....it will be very loud above our heads at the salt....and maybe we need a new rule for crew member and spectators....they have to wear helmets...
[/quote]
Jon,
the NRA was the reason why I wrote this note....I thought when they come along with some big elephant guns....the sound of the drones and helicopter will be gone....but if WE feel than better with our blown ear drums.....this maybe stand than on other paper... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Guys --
I think we should give the SCTA their due -- they were ahead of us already on this. There are a lot of official and non-official SCTA members at any SCTA event. And they probably conduct their events as well as any other organization. So let's just hope they have an event to conduct.
Stan
P.S. I believe the drone at the 2013 Drivers Meeting was the BBC's (or one of their contributors). That shows that all professionals are not always professional.
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:cheers:
Yea, SCTA drone hunting license :-D
JL222
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If any show up at Bonneville, make them have the Here Ya Bastards banner or it's open season like Brian posted!!!
:-D :-D :-D
Gregg
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Maybe SCTA should start selling advertising space on their banners as a qualification for a permit to fly and take pictures.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Get enough drones together and maybe all that prop wash will dry out the salt,,,,
And this continues to drone on :dhorse: