Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: widgeon on March 07, 2016, 07:13:55 PM

Title: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: widgeon on March 07, 2016, 07:13:55 PM: I KNOW THIS IS WAY TOO EASY AND PRACTICAL BUT WHAT IS THE PILE SALE SALT LOCATED JUST WEST OF SALT LAKE CITY (MORTON SALT MAYBE NOT SURE) WORTH? IF THE SALT FLATS ARE BASICALLY TREATED AS A NATIONAL PARK BY THE GOVERNMENT, WHY DOESN'T THIS MAKE SENSE FOR THEM TO PURCHASE THIS SALT AND MAYBE A BIT MORE IF NEEDED AND REPLENISH THE SALT FLATS. THE MONIES THEY MAKE OFF ALL OF SALT RACING, THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY, ADVERTISING, MUST BE HUGE. I WOULD THINK THIS COULD BE A "WIN-WIN" SITUATION FOR ALL. THIS COULD EVEN BE A NICE PARTNERSHIP WITH MANY ORGANIZATIONS AND SUPPORTERS AND MAYBE A PARTIAL DONATION FROM MORTON SALT WOULD BE A NICE JESTER? JUST A THOUGHT............I KNOW IT WON'T WORK! RICH
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Stainless1 on March 07, 2016, 07:20:17 PM: No need to shout or haul salt from Morton.... they have the salt they removed and haven't sold yet right across the road... they just need to put it back.
:dhorse:
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: widgeon on March 07, 2016, 07:24:55 PM: What's that mean.....in english?????
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: jacksoni on March 07, 2016, 07:36:31 PM: sorta same as this: "MORTON SALT WOULD BE A NICE JESTER". What the BLM is .....
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Dynoroom on March 07, 2016, 07:38:16 PM: What Stainless means is the salt from the Bonneville Salt Flats is on the other side of I-80. Just a few miles away. They havn't used it all yet, It needs to be returned...
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: widgeon on March 07, 2016, 07:44:20 PM: "THANKS" MIKE FOR THE EDUCATION.....I KNEW IT WAS TOO EASY. THANKS, RICH
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: noboD on March 08, 2016, 02:43:01 AM: How did the salt get placed a mile away across the road? If the mining Co. did it in their process why wouldn't they be required to put it back?
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Freud on March 08, 2016, 12:48:45 PM: Does anyone understand that You can ask questions that no one can answer?

FREUD
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 08, 2016, 01:11:02 PM: The salt across the road is mostly from deep brine wells and are pulled from water pumped 1000 feet under the Bonneville salt flats. Now comes the important part of all of this, the Bonneville salt flats are 100 sq miles, and only a small part of its is used for racing. The brine processed is mostly from the areas that do not produce the hard racing surface. Now if you where to pack all of the salt onto your race track, how long do you think it would take it to desolve and then come back up to produce a track, answer a really long time.
So maybe we should try to work on solutions that make sense. Lets use a little science here, and maybe listen to people that have more knowlege.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Eddieschopshop on March 08, 2016, 02:20:56 PM: If all the salt is being pumped from under ground, why are all the ditches/levies running all over the place? It seems hard to believe from a "science" stand point that removing salt from the overall system wouldn't remove salt from the surface as well.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: bbarn on March 08, 2016, 02:57:39 PM: Quote from: Eddieschopshop on March 08, 2016, 02:20:56 PM
If all the salt is being pumped from under ground, why are all the ditches/levies running all over the place? It seems hard to believe from a "science" stand point that removing salt from the overall system wouldn't remove salt from the surface as well.

Rainwater and returned pumping water does not contain a high enough concentration of salt. As such, the new water (rain or returned brine) simply picks up the salt it needs to get to back to its saturation level then drains back into the ground.

Tom Burkland gave a good talk on this at PRI. It seems that the salt needs to be a 28% solution (or 28ppm - I forget) to prevent it picking up any surface salt but only 26% solution can be pumped without causing mechanical precipitation of the salt from solution.

So, deep water brine is pumped to the evaporating ponds. A 26% solution is pumped back to the flats and it rains. That water collects salt from the track and runs back into the ground and the process starts again. This cycle has been going on for a long time. This is what is causing the track to deteriorate.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 08, 2016, 08:19:38 PM: so the surface salt is going back into the brine clay and being pump out, wow, you really don't know alot about the salt flats.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Dakin Engineering on March 09, 2016, 08:51:46 AM: From the USGS

http://www.save-the-salt.org/s/FS97-135-4mak.pdf

Sam
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 09, 2016, 11:38:43 AM: If you read that USGS paper and the conclusion this line from the report pretty well sums up what we have all been thinking

“Indicate that brine withdrawal is a major cause of salt loss from the crust.”

Now one has to wonder if they are going to do anything about it.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: bbarn on March 09, 2016, 11:54:10 AM: Quote from: crawford on March 08, 2016, 08:19:38 PM
so the surface salt is going back into the brine clay and being pump out, wow, you really don't know alot about the salt flats.

Model simulations, in which the
1992 rate of withdrawal from the
brine-collection ditch east of the salt
crust and average climatic conditions
were used, indicate that brine
withdrawal is a major cause of salt
loss from the crust. Other than the
cycling of fluid and solute through the
playa surface each year, subsurface
brine flow and solute transport to the
brine-collection ditches east and south
of the salt crust are the largest
contributors to salt removal from the
shallow-brine aquifer. Model
simulations do not account for the
occasional loss of salt from the crust
by extensive flooding described
previously.

In English - Water is moving salt from one place to another. It does this by dissolving salt into a solution and uses natural water flow to transport the salt. Water that is already saturated will not pickup more salt. Water that falls as rain can dissolve the most salt as it likely has very low amounts of dissolved salt in solution. Water that is mechanically pumped cannot contain the maximum saturation level of salt because the mechanical action lowers the saturation point of the solution.

Therefore, fresh and pumped water onto the salt surface dissolves salt. Proof of this is that the mining companies use a brine solution to move what they are mining from point A to point B. The aquifer under the flats is a brine aquifer, that means it has salt in it.

How do you think that salt got there? You think the ocean flows under the lake bed?

The water that falls or is pumped onto the racing surface dissolves the salt and moves it into the aquifer either through collection ditches or through natural leeching into the soil. This is not rocket surgery, sorcery or witchcraft but rather basic 8th grade natural science.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: widgeon on March 09, 2016, 06:14:19 PM: MAYBE THIS OUGHT TO BE A QUESTION THAT THE MODERATORS ASK OF THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN THE NEXT DEBATE? MAYBE TRUMPS THE GUY WE ASK. I WOULD BET THERE WOULD BE NO B.S. IN HIS REPLY. EITHER GET IT DONE OR NOT AND BYPASS ALL OF THE PARASITES AND WASTE IN WASHINGTON! JUST A THOUGHT.......
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 09, 2016, 07:20:17 PM: Yes the usgs study was interesting, but its dated, I'm not saying that the surface is not thinning, but I think that their study was based on mor computer simulations than actual, there are several other factors that need to be considered, one wind loss of the crust, roads stopping the flow ect. But then again I did make it through the 8th grade. Look I'm all for the saving of the salt flats and the racing on them, but we need to come up with a plan that works with everyone's needs, and one that will work, I'm very concerned with the conditions because this is my home. Oh and by the way I did make it past the 8th grade, and no I'm not a rocket scientist.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Polyhead on March 09, 2016, 08:41:11 PM: Quote from: bbarn on March 09, 2016, 11:54:10 AM
Quote from: crawford on March 08, 2016, 08:19:38 PM
so the surface salt is going back into the brine clay and being pump out, wow, you really don't know alot about the salt flats.

Model simulations, in which the
1992 rate of withdrawal from the
brine-collection ditch east of the salt
crust and average climatic conditions
were used, indicate that brine
withdrawal is a major cause of salt
loss from the crust. Other than the
cycling of fluid and solute through the
playa surface each year, subsurface
brine flow and solute transport to the
brine-collection ditches east and south
of the salt crust are the largest
contributors to salt removal from the
shallow-brine aquifer. Model
simulations do not account for the
occasional loss of salt from the crust
by extensive flooding described
previously.

In English - Water is moving salt from one place to another. It does this by dissolving salt into a solution and uses natural water flow to transport the salt. Water that is already saturated will not pickup more salt. Water that falls as rain can dissolve the most salt as it likely has very low amounts of dissolved salt in solution. Water that is mechanically pumped cannot contain the maximum saturation level of salt because the mechanical action lowers the saturation point of the solution.

Therefore, fresh and pumped water onto the salt surface dissolves salt. Proof of this is that the mining companies use a brine solution to move what they are mining from point A to point B. The aquifer under the flats is a brine aquifer, that means it has salt in it.

How do you think that salt got there? You think the ocean flows under the lake bed?

The water that falls or is pumped onto the racing surface dissolves the salt and moves it into the aquifer either through collection ditches or through natural leeching into the soil. This is not rocket surgery, sorcery or witchcraft but rather basic 8th grade natural science.

Uh.. man... the bulk of these people DO believe in witchcraft and sorcery... so... yeah.... I follow you, you're right, and there is another point here that nobody is making but everyone should be making to the BLM.

The racing surface is a matrix. It's a crystal structure that is a mix of different metallic salts. Even if you DID pump every last single fucking drop of sodium chloride back onto that surface it's not going to be what it use to be. It starts to become a homogenious crystaline matrix and it's going to be soft. Just like if you process every last impurity out of iron. But we tend not to build things out of pure iron because it's not very durable that way. A bit of carbon, a bit of other varoius metals, often times totalling less than %1 of the entire alloy, compleatly changes the behavior of the material. Salt is no different. The mining operation is removing potassium chloride and probably other metalic chlorides and that is going to have a noticable affect on the properties of the surface. There are other salt beds in the world, none of them seem to work as well Bonneville. It may well be that the same thing that made bonneville a great racing surface is also what made the potash mining operation profitable, IE, unusually high levels of potassium.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 09, 2016, 09:30:56 PM: There is no doubt the surface has thinned and it doesn't take much to see that. It isn't a few inches and I am sure a 4th or 5th grader can tell that, if shown a few before and after photo's that are out there in the public domain. The simple fact that the BLM is trying it's best to say that's not the case, is the problem here. Wendover is afraid of losing the income from employment, taxes and such but let's face it, they are not only going to lose that, but much much more when the salt is all gone. This isn't a short term fix needed but yet a long term and people are going to have to suffer if the Salt Flats are to be saved, if it can be at all.

Wendover doesn't survive from the racers but they do from the Salt Flats being there, so they are screwed either way. All one really needs to do is go back to the currently documented predictions that have been made over the last 50 years or so and guess what, it's all coming true NOW! So we all need to get the government to stop whats going on or just sit back and let the last nail be pounded, then change all the road signs, maps ect, to the FORMER HOME OF THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS. There will be no salt flats left, so no travelers to come see it, No mining company's jobs as there is nothing left to mine, Casino's shutting down as no profits left and Wendover along with many other small towns will most likely dry up and die, as no one is going to travel to see the former home of the salt flats.

So we all need to look out past our life times and do something about it, NOW, so those in the future people can enjoy what we have.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Ron Gibson on March 10, 2016, 01:33:02 AM: Mike
I would have to believe that the USGS's statement about the salt crust being 7 feet thick in 1960 would be based on how much salt they had to bore through with the drilling rig shown in the picture.
I know for a fact that we used to drive off the end of the road, even into deep brine, on to rock solid salt on the bottom, and not the mud and sink holes as at the 2014 USFRA meet. They can call it any thing they want but it was still MUD.
If there is 118,000,000 tons of hard salt in pond 5 (per Roger L's post in poor salt conditions), how much is there in all of their ponds and piles combined? How did it get there and where did it come from, Fairy Dust????
Seems to me that if Intrepid is pumping brine back, but not saturated brine, and part of the year pumping back south, it will only take about a hundred years or so to replace some of the salt.
It can never be completely restored (restore means return to original condition) because they can't replace the millions of tons that has been sold and hauled off.
As far as the claim that the salt is as thick as it always was, I saw a picture on the site (tried to find it no luck) of a DC-3 parked on the salt at one of the old record attempts. I wouldn't try to land one out there today.

Ron
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: joea on March 10, 2016, 10:44:11 AM: Yeah BBarn, Ron etal...you need to consider "wind loss of the salt crust"...
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Freud on March 10, 2016, 12:32:44 PM: In the past the center line (the long black line) was established with ribbons

tied to nails that were about 3/8" in diameter and 6+ inches long. Those

nails were drive with an 8# beater and it took powerful swings to drive them.

They did not go thru the layer of salt. As recently as 15 years ago dragging

of the course would remove one of those nails.

I think it would now be difficult to find salt that thick anywhere out there.

Ask the Vescos. They know. Probably Burkdolls also. And Wester.

FREUD
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 10, 2016, 05:19:55 PM: Quote from: Steve Cole on March 09, 2016, 09:30:56 PM
There is no doubt the surface has thinned and it doesn't take much to see that. It isn't a few inches and I am sure a 4th or 5th grader can tell that, if shown a few before and after photo's that are out there in the public domain. The simple fact that the BLM is trying it's best to say that's not the case, is the problem here. Wendover is afraid of losing the income from employment, taxes and such but let's face it, they are not only going to lose that, but much much more when the salt is all gone. This isn't a short term fix needed but yet a long term and people are going to have to suffer if the Salt Flats are to be saved, if it can be at all.

Wendover doesn't survive from the racers but they do from the Salt Flats being there, so they are screwed either way. All one really needs to do is go back to the currently documented predictions that have been made over the last 50 years or so and guess what, it's all coming true NOW! So we all need to get the government to stop whats going on or just sit back and let the last nail be pounded, then change all the road signs, maps ect, to the FORMER HOME OF THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS. There will be no salt flats left, so no travelers to come see it, No mining company's jobs as there is nothing left to mine, Casino's shutting down as no profits left and Wendover along with many other small towns will most likely dry up and die, as no one is going to travel to see the former home of the salt flats.

So we all need to look out past our life times and do something about it, NOW, so those in the future people can enjoy what we have.
wow you do realize that this and has been a casino town for the last 25 years, which means that we do not need the Bonneville Salt Flats to stay around, but because it is part of our history in more ways than the racing, we would like to keep the flats around. But its people like you that think we don't care as much as you, who I don't even know that well. So like I have said before and will say again, the racers are important to us, but not as much as you think.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 10, 2016, 05:25:56 PM: Its people like Steve Cole, that make me really sad! They know nothing about the area but just have to tell the people of wendover how much they mean to our lives, even through its only one week a year, how do we make it through the other 51 weeks, hmmmm should just give up and move, Dodge and this was looking like one of my better years in retail, oh well, Steve has done our business plan for us, so the casino's are doomed! You guys are still not getting it, I love the Bonneville Salt Flats, Its part of me, so I get alittle touchy when people who don't know what they are talking about, like Steve cole. Get a clue if the salt flats are going to be saved don't you think your going to need local help? Just saying.........
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: joea on March 10, 2016, 06:12:37 PM: It isn't unnoticed that efforts to "Save the Salt" , has been primarily an effort by racers and the sanctioning bodies ...whereas efforts that have diminished and destroyed the Bonneville salt flats have been primarily from local entities that live there

Supported by past and current legislation ...

it also isn't unnoticed the support many local businesses have for the racers when in town, during the SIX or more scheduled lsr events each year
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 10, 2016, 07:44:08 PM: Quote from: crawford on March 10, 2016, 05:25:56 PM
Its people like Steve Cole, that make me really sad! They know nothing about the area but just have to tell the people of wendover how much they mean to our lives, even through its only one week a year, how do we make it through the other 51 weeks, hmmmm should just give up and move, Dodge and this was looking like one of my better years in retail, oh well, Steve has done our business plan for us, so the casino's are doomed! You guys are still not getting it, I love the Bonneville Salt Flats, Its part of me, so I get alittle touchy when people who don't know what they are talking about, like Steve cole. Get a clue if the salt flats are going to be saved don't you think your going to need local help? Just saying.........

I think you need to open your eye's! If you think I don't have a clue, to bad on you. The data has been around for years, (all publicly documented) predictions of the demise of the salt have been around for years (again all publicly documented) and please show/tell me what the Locals have done about it for the last 25 years? So far, It's the racing community that has been pushing this forward, not the locals.

So you've had casino's for 25 years and you've had a salt flats for a million years + that are NOW disappearing and turning into mud pits. Do you really think people will come there for the casino's and mud pits? Vegas and Reno will take the visitors for gambling long before Wendover. Why is it the room cost all triple or more, during the racing events? If the mines shut down (due to no mining allowed)and the casino's shut down (due to no people coming to visiting the salt flats, year round) please explain to us what's left. Do you think ignoring the problem that is right in front of you in brown and white is going to make it go away?

Look, it's time we all did something about this and the racers are doing the best we can and moving it forward but if the locals cannot see how much more they are going to lose if the salt disappears, can't say you were not warned. We all want to be able to race at Bonneville and also would like to give our children the same chance. To do that the Locals and the Racers had better get involved NOW and push this or we all lose. So far it's been the racers and racing community doing the work and it's time the locals had better step it up and get involved, again this is not my opinion but the simple facts!

If you really love the Bonneville Salt Flats, as you claim, it's time to put on your big boy pants and get the real information out to all the locals and get them all involved to the level the Racers and Racing community have already done. Then maybe we have a chance of saving the Bonneville Salt Flats for ALL! Just saying.........
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: noboD on March 10, 2016, 08:19:47 PM: Why does every discussion have to turn into a pissing contest?
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on March 10, 2016, 09:19:31 PM: Steve. I have been racing on the salt since 1973. I have known Mike Crawford for a lot of years. Mike has helped quite a few racers over the years. He even opened Car Quest very late one night to get a tube patch kit for some racers. He does care. The gamblers mostly drive to Wendover from the east. The mine only employs about 40 people. It will take an act of congress to get anything good to get started to restore the flats.

John
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 10, 2016, 10:53:36 PM: Quote from: Speed Limit 1000 on March 10, 2016, 09:19:31 PM
Steve. I have been racing on the salt since 1973. I have known Mike Crawford for a lot of years. Mike has helped quite a few racers over the years. He even opened Car Quest very late one night to get a tube patch kit for some racers. He does care. The gamblers mostly drive to Wendover from the east. The mine only employs about 40 people. It will take an act of congress to get anything good to get started to restore the flats.

John

I'm not saying Mike has not helped racers at all! What I am saying is if the Locals do not see this as a major problem for there local economy they are sadly mistaken. Since Mike is the mayor, as I understand it, I would think he should be very concerned and getting all the locals on-board ASAP. Let's face it Wendover is a tourist town for a very very large part of there income and if anyone thinks otherwise all you need to do is look at the reports to find it out. How long does anyone think the casino's are going to stay if the profits are not there? With the economy the way it's been going for the last 5 -7 years look at the shape the Casino's in Wendover are in, and that's not a dig at anyone, it's just the way it is. My first trip to the salt for racing was back in 1969 as a pit crew helper, so I have seen the changes over the years. While I wish I could have come every year that's not been the case, but I've seen enough over the years to watch the Salt disappearing. I can remember drilling holes in the salt to drive screws in that were in the 8" length range and NEVER hitting anything but rock hard salt!

As far as restoring the Salt Flats its going to take a bigger cross section of people than just the race community to even think about getting congress off there a$$ to do anything about it. Let's face it the BLM wants another 10 year study done before they do anything and in 10 more years I predict it's going to be too late at the rate it's now disappearing.

If the Locals and the media do not get heavily involve now, it doesn't have a chance!
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: salt on March 11, 2016, 12:08:03 AM: Save Bonneville - stop the mining now!

Sorry, I have a one-track mind.
Willi
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Polyhead on March 11, 2016, 01:02:51 AM: Quote from: salt on March 11, 2016, 12:08:03 AM
Save Bonneville - stop the mining now!

Sorry, I have a one-track mind.
Willi

halting mining may have less impact at this point than we all hope it would. :/ Sadly...
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Polyhead on March 11, 2016, 01:04:43 AM: Quote from: noboD on March 10, 2016, 08:19:47 PM
Why does every discussion have to turn into a pissing contest?

because urine contains salt?
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: tauruck on March 11, 2016, 01:23:13 AM: Quote from: Polyhead on March 11, 2016, 01:04:43 AM
Quote from: noboD on March 10, 2016, 08:19:47 PM
Why does every discussion have to turn into a pissing contest?

because urine contains salt?

:-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 11, 2016, 11:27:05 AM: I can remember back in the day when some of the older guys were saying the salt was shrinking. I can say, I along with many others thought then, you guys are nuts! Salt nice and deep and as white as white can be, as far as you could see! Well I can now say without a doubt, they knew what they were talking about! I and many others were dead wrong. In my years of going to the salt what they said would happen has happened!

So before it's all gone, we ALL need to try and do something about it. Sure, it's not going to be easy, and yes it going to cost.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 11, 2016, 04:18:03 PM: Look guys I'm all for the replenishment of the Salt, and yes I do know the salt flats have got smaller, my biggest fear is that it is too late, but deep down I don't think so. My biggest and most misunderstood point is, we need to direct our efforts at the best possible solution, and all of us, racers and non-racers need to get behind it. its not a contest who is more involved. I'm just concerned that if a few racers feel that its the locals who caused the problem that will draw a conflict line that will effect any efforts to help the Salt. I'm one of the few people from Wendover that like the racers, this town was built first by the railroad, second the military, and third and biggest stage is the casino's, which by the way are no way tied to the Bonneville Saltflats, thats just fact. So lets get a plan for the future and quit hashing over the path, or yes one day we will wake up and it will gone!
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Stan Back on March 11, 2016, 06:49:46 PM: Crawford's on the racers' side. Not because he sells so many parts when we're in town. He might sell a few more -- but he's open more hours to do it. And he takes delivery and holds things for the racers -- everything from bikes to O-rings.

The casinos run the economy there now. Years ago, the place was just a gas stop on a major east-west thoroughfare. One visible casino with its parking lot in Utah, and the casino itself in Nevada. The motels in Utah were mainly converted barracks and the "ripped us off" just like we think the hotels are ripping us off today.

Those of us, back then, had to go to the Stateline to read the pasted-on-the-window daily results. This took a few hours to produce, and we drank and gambled the night away. We'd meet and great our friends and socialize and wait for Bob and Sylvia's show which got better later and later.

Now the casinos charge what they can get. A lot of you believe in "free enterprise", unless it applies to you. Now our crowd tracks salt all though their businesses -- past the machines -- and waits in the buffet lines for the bargain meal of the day -- the loss-leader. The Salt Cellar ain't there any more. We may have a beer with dinner, but usually go straight to bed (especially those of us fortunate to make the early back-up run deadline). And we don't gamble. At least like we used to. So the casinos can't give us the loss-leader rates that they give the SLC losers (certainly not the Trump-designated losers).

So Mike, who I've never met, isn't trying to mislead us. He's just telling it like he thinks it is. He may be right. Or not. I'm lost in the science of all this, but agree with everyone -- something needs to be done.

Stan
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: jdincau on March 11, 2016, 07:04:25 PM: Well said both Mike and Stan.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: will6er on March 11, 2016, 07:28:41 PM: I want to be the first one to say" CUT MIKE SOME SLACK" He is in a very difficult place.
Wendover, UTAH doesn't reap much from the casinos. His constituency is dependent on Intrepid and crumbs from the casinos. Just take a "cruise" on the Utah side next time you are there.

The downsides of Mike's situation are: He spends extra hours selling a few extra parts and receiving shipments for racers.
There are few restaurants or activities in Wendover, UTAH.
As Mayor, he oversees the operations of a city which has to have a small tax base.
On the other side of the "magic line":
I have been told that Speed Week is one of the smallest weeks of the year for gambling action. (All of our discretionary income is sitting on the Salt)
The casinos have to continue paying their help, therefore they raise their rates to try to recoup the gambling loss- you can still get $25 rates on other dates.

As far as the tourist aspect: I have talked to a number of people who have driven by The Flats many times and haven,t even stopped at the rest stop.
Mike has been pushing a landspeed racing museum on the east end of the metro area.
This is important to us, but we are a very small demographic.

This is going to take a unified approach to have any hope of a good outcome - much like the two S.T.S. groups working together.
Until Utah legalizes gambling, the Wendover area is almost totally dependent on the casinos, then it will dry up.
There, I've vented.

Will Willis #6302
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Steve Cole on March 12, 2016, 12:45:03 PM: Quote from: crawford on March 11, 2016, 04:18:03 PM
I'm just concerned that if a few racers feel that its the locals who caused the problem that will draw a conflict line that will effect any efforts to help the Salt.

I for one do not believe the locals caused it. Did they benefit from it, absolutely, as have the racers. The government has allowed it, knowing good and well it was going to happen. Way to much data has been brought to light now from the past years, saying it would happen and now it has. The trick now is to get the government to do something about it, before it's all gone! Can it be saved? Well, if we leave things as they are today, NO.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: velocity on March 19, 2016, 12:54:23 PM: Please refer to Utah Alliance thread for important March 14, 2016 update.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: joea on March 19, 2016, 02:38:46 PM: local entities ie The Local Mining Industry at Wendover...is in Fact the major cause of the demise of Bonneville Salt Flats.....

despite any local politician(s) who publicly described different explanations including
..."the salt is still there".....and during cancellations last summer screamed out on
social media and local newspaper....."I can't for the life of me understand how they
could cancel the meet"...in the face of the sanctioning bodies such as Cook team/SCTA/BUB etal with pics of the situation and entities on salt who intimately understand what it takes for folks to safely race....

if it wasnt for the Racers..Save the Salt efforts and Sanctioning bodies banding together to
fight the destruction....it would continue unfettered....

thank you to "all" who fight the fight
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 20, 2016, 03:45:05 PM: WE all are going to have to fight the fight "every little bit helps" if we can get to the point that nearly everyone makes just one or two phone calls a month that can and WILL help
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 20, 2016, 06:40:26 PM: The very important House Subcommittee: 25 Members

ENERGY and MINERAL RESOURCES
Chairman Hon. Doug Lamborn CO Dist 5
Ranking Member Hon. Alan Lowenthal CA Dist 47

By State and US House District #

AZ
3 Hon. Raul Grijalva
4 Hon. Paul Gosart
7 Hon. Ruben Gallego

CA
8
16
24
47

CO
2
5

GA
10

ID
1

LA
4
6

MA
3

MI Hon. Dan Benishek
1

MT
at large

NV
4

PA
5
17

SC
3

TX
1 Hon. Louie Gomert

UT Ex Officio
1 Hon. Rob Bishop

VA
1
8

WV
2

We are looking for racers in these 16 States who will make a few phone calls to help us get our team together so we can help SAVE The SALT.. Pls help us all to get a better race course!!

Thinking FAST ALWAYS Sparky
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 20, 2016, 10:33:05 PM: Off to a great start # 5 down 20 to go..
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 21, 2016, 10:05:02 AM: what we are trying to do has was presented to the 200 MPH Club board at the January meeting,

just last week it was discussed in detail with200 MPH Club President, Dan Warner and Allison, a founding member of the Utah Alliance and the Washington staff of SEMA's SAM --- SEMA"S Action Network

everyone is planning on we racers being able to help move the legislation by contacting our legislators when the legislation is ready to go. It is very important that we get organized for our local work. We have penciled in names of racers that have agreed to contact their local representative. This is a non partisan effort--- we will not be pushing any agenda but:

Restore to Preserve the Bonneville Salt flats.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: crawford on March 21, 2016, 11:47:58 AM: Quote from: joea on March 19, 2016, 02:38:46 PM
local entities ie The Local Mining Industry at Wendover...is in Fact the major cause of the demise of Bonneville Salt Flats.....

any ldedespite ocal politician(s) who publicly scribed different explanations including
..."the salt is still there".....and during cancellations last summer screamed out on
social media and local newspaper....."I can't for the life of me understand how they
could cancel the meet"...in the face of the sanctioning bodies such as Cook team/SCTA/BUB etal with pics of the situation and entities on salt who intimately understand what it takes for folks to safely race....

if it wasnt for the Racers..Save the Salt efforts and Sanctioning bodies banding together to
fight the destruction....it would continue unfettered....

thank you to "all" who fight the fight

All I can say to that is Wow! you are one of those special racers US locals call special!
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 26, 2016, 10:57:02 AM: "thank you to "all" who fight the fight"

We need more racers to enlist and commit in this effort which will be ongoing because of the need to get the funds into the Federal Budget to Restore the Salt---that is after we get Legislation passed requiring the Restoration!

Thanks to all who are already engaged Utah has gotten theirs underway, Nevada has several, we have several here in AZ who are willing, one in Texas one in Mich. and several in CA. I am sure there are many others but we do not know who they are. We will have a much better chance of having our voice heard when we are able to identify and communicate with them so that we will know their US House and Senate members are being contacted.

To LONGER deeper and firmer SALT Flat Race Course.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Dakin Engineering on March 26, 2016, 05:40:27 PM: Sparky,
What about Intrepid's reclamation bond?
Isn't that what it's for?

Sam
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Stainless1 on March 26, 2016, 11:50:02 PM: Sam... $100 doesn't go as far as it used to.... :?
:cheers:
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 26, 2016, 11:52:12 PM: I am by no means know all of the ins and outs on OUR Lack of Salt Problem. I am just relaying what I understand the most viable option is..

My guess is that the bond is for when they "quit" the property with out complying with their contract.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Dakin Engineering on March 27, 2016, 11:51:48 AM: " the most viable option is..", " funds into the Federal Budget to Restore the Salt---that is after we get Legislation passed requiring the Restoration!"

So, you go to meet the Senator/Represenative and are greeted by the Senior Staffer-in-Charge-of-Things-Hissoner-Can't-Be-Bothered-With.
"Thank you for coming, I'm afraid Hissonner can't meet with you today. He's very busy with matters concerning National Security and the working conditions at a vital installation concerning the well-being of all members of Congress. Please, tell me your problem and I promise I will bring it to Hissonner's attention as soon as he gets a break from these more pressing issues."

What are you going to tell the Staffer?

Sam
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on March 27, 2016, 12:41:37 PM: Sparky, I'm not privy to the contract/bond for reclamation at the Salt, but as I know it up here, with lots of mines and many other land-intensive businesses, the bond is established by purchased at the outset, meaning that it is (supposedly, I presume) 100% of the $$ needed to return things to natural is already sitting there as a bond or money in the bank or however the permit required it. It's to be used at the end of the life of the mine - whether the owner of that mine is still available or not. I believe the owner gets to use that money - or the government will.

Is that the way it goes?
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 27, 2016, 12:49:59 PM: LOL Sam sounds like you have been there done that; but my experience is that it all counts and it will be accumulative."

Our job as racers is to work with our State and Federal elected officials to help them to be a representative and not just an elected official. This takes time and effort, but there are now lots of car guys know we have a SALT problem---our job is to help inform them le how THEY can to help return the SALT.

We need to become ambassadors-at-large for the SALT FLATS.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on March 27, 2016, 12:52:03 PM: SSS I think you are right it is for the end of mine---not while it is still active.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: jacksoni on March 28, 2016, 08:17:40 AM: Interesting article about the shrinking lake on Accuweather with photo. In upper left corner can see the salt flats, I80 dividing and the ponds/holding areas south.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/features/trend/utah_great_salt_lake_shrinking_environmental_implications_harmful_dust_storms/56189290

I still remember the '82-3 El Nino year with the lake flooding the airport, pumps being installed to lower the lake level, the road bed and railroad being elevated to stay above the lake. And the meet being flooded out of course.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: gnomenator on April 03, 2016, 01:18:19 PM: Morning all, just a little positive info to report. I just got home from vending at the Portland Swap Meet (PIR & EXPO). I printed up the UA poster and then 100 or so flyer size copies and we set up a prominent display at our booth. Wend(set-up day) was slow on interest but Thursday, it took off and by Fri, I was all out of flyers, however people continued to stop to read the entire poster and many engaged me in Q&A ! I even had one guy immediately reach into his pocket and want to donate on the spot, to which I directed him to the info on the flyer for the STS and/or UA to make his donation. This gentleman has only been a spectator,not a racer, but was totally in support of our cause. So, while I realize it is a small 'victory' , EVERY voice can help. I will continue to display at any like-minded event> BLM ~ WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP! Good Salt 2016 :cheers:
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on April 03, 2016, 07:55:56 PM: A LSR " Ambassador-at-Large" you were for our assisting the efforts to RESTORE TO PRESERVE the Bonneville Salt Flats! Good on ya as our salt brothers from down south like to say--- the time will come when we will also have a "how to contact your elected officials and ask them to support the ON GOING effort !
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: distributorguy on April 04, 2016, 01:04:50 PM: I think everyone would be surprised how much financial support we could get from "Go Fund Me." A few free ads in national magazines and it would be in front of half a million people who care. The problem is, there needs to be a plan of action in writing so the money goes to actually moving salt, and an account set up by those who need to spend said funds. A collection jar at events will certainly get results as well, but not in the masses we could see online, where a "click to pay" Paypal button makes life so simple these days.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: burbanite on April 04, 2016, 05:09:27 PM: Quote from: distributorguy on April 04, 2016, 01:04:50 PM
I think everyone would be surprised how much financial support we could get from "Go Fund Me." A few free ads in national magazines and it would be in front of half a million people who care. The problem is, there needs to be a plan of action in writing so the money goes to actually moving salt, and an account set up by those who need to spend said funds. A collection jar at events will certainly get results as well, but not in the masses we could see online, where a "click to pay" Paypal button makes life so simple these days.

Worth a shot, I'd be in on that.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: SPARKY on April 04, 2016, 10:01:10 PM: I agree!! It will all come with time---we need to plan for the long haul!!
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: thundersalt on April 05, 2016, 02:09:52 PM: https://www.gofundme.com/82pauyvs
In feb when Kanye started his I this this as a joke . It is still active. Sent the first 170 to STS already
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: velocity on April 07, 2016, 01:48:42 AM: gnomenator -

You did good work. Very good work that seeds the thoughts of knowledge and change.

On behalf of all who are laboring to restore the Bonneville working with Save the Salt and the Utah Alliance, we thank you and hold up your marvelous bit of advocacy as a benchmark that others should strive to duplicate.

As you discovered, the public is as outraged as the land speed racing community when they are told the facts and want to contribute without being hustled to "invest" imaginary real estate.
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: gnomenator on April 07, 2016, 10:35:19 AM: Good morning Louise , thank you for the kudos, I am very honored to do whatever I can to get this issue resolved, but the REAL thanks goes to YOU and all the people in front and behind the scenes who have worked so very hard to accomplish our goal.I know there is some disagreement on this forum, but the underlying issue can and SHOULD unite ALL of us in this fight. I was very pleasantly surprised at the outrage and concern that people showed as they read the poster. Some (a lot) of people had NO idea there even WAS a problem with the BSF, so as you said, a little knowledge goes a LONG way !! Thanks again to all who fight the fight! Good Salt to all !! :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: REPLENISHMENT OF SALT
Post by: distributorguy on April 07, 2016, 05:53:46 PM: Quote from: thundersalt on April 05, 2016, 02:09:52 PM
https://www.gofundme.com/82pauyvs
In feb when Kanye started his I this this as a joke . It is still active. Sent the first 170 to STS already

With a little marketing, I've seen thousands raised in minutes. It works. We just need to have a contractor ready to haul or pump salt, so the money has a place to go. Maybe it could pay for a pump or ??? Keep this in mind when trying to decide how to physically get salt onto the track!!!